Another humbling post: involves a WWII vet, a gun, and a moral decision that changed MANY lives - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Another humbling post: involves a WWII vet, a gun, and a moral decision that changed MANY lives (Page 2 of 3)

Posted: 1/4/2006 11:08:37 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
Should have kept all of those thoughts to himself. He pulls a knife, you shoot, self-defense.

True. He was being TOO much of a "stand-up" guy.

I respect him. But I would have handled it differently.

Posted: 1/4/2006 11:13:07 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Quoted:
While I agree that some people just need killing, murder is murder, plain and simple and nothing can be done to excuse it. There were other choices besides A) do nothing or B) kill the bastard.

You must have missed the part where he states:

"I had a choice, and this is the road I picked."

and

At a critical fork in the road of life, a short time back, fate gave me a chance to choose which of two paths I wanted to follow. It was a fair offer. Fate even let me look ahead a bit to see where each one led. (I have always found "Fate" to be fair in its dealings with me.)

and

That peek into the future made the decision easy. Down one road I saw nothing but tragedy, death and shame. Down the other I saw life and freedom for my family and honor for myself. Thats the road I picked. Thats the road I am on now.

and, lastly

So, don't waste tears on me, dear friends. Life has been good to me. I have no regrets. I shall pray that each of you at 82 can look back and say the same.

But then we quote the OP:

He was confronted by his daughters husband, who pulled a knife on him and threatened him to stay out of it.

This seems a fairly clear cut case of self-defense. His INTENT may have been to kill the deserving SOB no matter what, but it seems that he has a distinct get-out-of-jail-free card right there.

Posted: 1/4/2006 11:42:12 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
To quote the father from Bonfire of the Vanities..."If the truth won't set you free then...lie."
There's nothing honorable about rotting in prison when you don't have to.

Your character is revealed, Rik.

Oh what the fuck EVER. If you want to be honest to the point of spending the rest of your life in prison needlessly, more power to you.

We don't have much info, but based on what we do know, I am inclined to think that his actions, if a last resort, are honorable. However, saying he should have lied is preposterous. There are ways of protecting yourself without lying ("I'd like my lawyer present during this questioning," and 5th Amendment, anyone?). He chose not to protect himself...and not to lie.

You are advocating that he lie. That reveals something about your character.

Posted: 1/4/2006 11:53:55 AM EDT

[#4]

No one ever clarified if the daughter was into it or not, and we'll probably never know either.

Posted: 1/4/2006 12:12:46 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
So if the guy threatened him and others with a knife why was it not self defense?

Thats what I want to know!

I guess in califoristan, the act of buying a gun promotes the Idea of premeditation, after all, guns are used to kill people. You buy a gun, you plan to kill someone.

I will tell you all right now, ANYONE bares steel to me or mine they are leaving the area in a heavy vinyl bag with a bright steel zipper. Same goes for molesting or endangering the lives my future children.

I don't get it. The guy was abusing her in front of him. Then he pulled a knife. In AZ I could shoot that fucker and it would be called good on account of Defense of a Thrid part and Self Defense.

My hat is off to this man. He did what he had to do, as many men before him have done.

Remember, until we won the war, everyone of the founding fathers was a criminal, and all guilty of killing.

Posted: 1/4/2006 12:17:23 PM EDT

[#6]

Is that his daughter in the picture? If not, wasn't she a little upset with him. I mean she could have left anytime she wanted but she chose to stay so she may have got a little pissed he killed her husband.

Was the guy the kids dad? If so how to you tell him he will never know his father because his grandpa killed him.

I'm torn on this one.

Posted: 1/4/2006 12:22:05 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Quoted:
So if the guy threatened him and others with a knife why was it not self defense?

Thats what I want to know!

I guess in califoristan, the act of buying a gun promotes the Idea of premeditation, after all, guns are used to kill people. You buy a gun, you plan to kill someone.

I will tell you all right now, ANYONE bares steel to me or mine they are leaving the area in a heavy vinyl bag with a bright steel zipper. Same goes for molesting or endangering the lives my future children.

I don't get it. The guy was abusing her in front of him. Then he pulled a knife. In AZ I could shoot that fucker and it would be called good on account of Defense of a Thrid part and Self Defense.

My hat is off to this man. He did what he had to do, as many men before him have done.

Remember, until we won the war, everyone of the founding fathers was a criminal, and all guilty of killing.

Ahhh, probably like the BS in NYS....deadly force is only justifed to the point where the iminent threat is removed. You shoot someone who is an immediate deadly threat. He dies, its all good (generally, this is still NYS, and certain DA's have a hard on for guns)...he's only wounded, but incapacitated, and you shoot him again to take him out....you're toast.

Sucks, but welcome to the liberal strongholds....

Posted: 1/4/2006 12:26:07 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
damn....

If this is a free country why in the hell is that man in prison.

Words fail.

Because of 12 jurors. I've seen lesser men acquitted. Shame

Posted: 1/4/2006 12:29:12 PM EDT

[#9]

Bud sorry far as I know killing someone after the threat is removed is bad in any state even if its only considered manslaughter.

The guy in this story obviously said too much when questioned or there were witnesses.

Moral of the story as these other guys have been pointing out.

"When you decide to go to war, end negotiations and let the first battle be on the battlefield of your chosing."

Tj

Posted: 1/4/2006 12:36:17 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Richard should be telling a different story and should have a better lawyer.

The story should go something like:

I was at my daughter house. My SIL became abusive to me and my daughter. I tried to call the police but he would let me. I shot my SIL after he pulled a knife and threatened to kill me and my daughter. I didn't want to shot him. I never planned to shot him.

yes we all understand his intentions but there are better ways to go about this type of thing.

Posted: 1/4/2006 12:37:10 PM EDT

[#11]

Tagged for later.

BigDozer66

Posted: 1/4/2006 12:42:28 PM EDT

[#12]

no excuses for anyone. he chose wrong. murder someone, death or life in prison. that is all. he got what he deserved.

Posted: 1/4/2006 12:45:05 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
no excuses for anyone. he chose wrong. murder someone, death or life in prison. that is all. he got what he deserved.

Whats your definition of murder? Sounds to me like he killed a sick bastard who was hurting his daughter...AFTER the cops told him there was nothing they could do...and to call them AFTER he killed her....

Posted: 1/4/2006 12:47:08 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Bud sorry far as I know killing someone after the threat is removed is bad in any state even if its only considered manslaughter.

The guy in this story obviously said too much when questioned or there were witnesses.

Moral of the story as these other guys have been pointing out.

"When you decide to go to war, end negotiations and let the first battle be on the battlefield of your chosing."

Tj

+1

He had a knife, he threatened me, I shot him.

No need to go into the details with the cops.

Posted: 1/4/2006 1:07:58 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Quoted:
no excuses for anyone. he chose wrong. murder someone, death or life in prison. that is all. he got what he deserved.

Whats your definition of murder? Sounds to me like he killed a sick bastard who was hurting his daughter...AFTER the cops told him there was nothing they could do...and to call them AFTER he killed her....

Did the daughter like being treated that way but it upset the old man? We don't know.

I wonder how many people who are saying "good shoot!" also say "what happens between consenting adults is their business, not yours" in other threads.

Posted: 1/4/2006 1:09:30 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
no excuses for anyone. he chose wrong. murder someone, death or life in prison. that is all. he got what he deserved.

Whats your definition of murder? Sounds to me like he killed a sick bastard who was hurting his daughter...AFTER the cops told him there was nothing they could do...and to call them AFTER he killed her....

Did the daughter like being treated that way but it upset the old man? We don't know.

I wonder how many people who are saying "good shoot!" also say "what happens between consenting adults is their business, not yours" in other threads.

I hear ya, I'm just going by what has been posted...hardly the whole story, but sounds plausible...

Posted: 1/4/2006 1:41:42 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Quoted:
To quote the father from Bonfire of the Vanities..."If the truth won't set you free then...lie."
There's nothing honorable about rotting in prison when you don't have to.

Your character is revealed, Rik.

Yeah his character is revealed! He's not a dumbass. I want him on my team.

Posted: 1/4/2006 1:44:55 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
To quote the father from Bonfire of the Vanities..."If the truth won't set you free then...lie."
There's nothing honorable about rotting in prison when you don't have to.

Your character is revealed, Rik.

Yeah his character is revealed! He's not a dumbass. I want him on my team.

Another character witness.

Posted: 1/4/2006 1:55:49 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
We don't have much info, but based on what we do know, I am inclined to think that his actions, if a last resort, are honorable. However, saying he should have lied is preposterous. There are ways of protecting yourself without lying ("I'd like my lawyer present during this questioning," and 5th Amendment, anyone?). He chose not to protect himself...and not to lie.

You are advocating that he lie. That reveals something about your character.

No, I don't know for certain enough about his case to say he HAD to lie in order to escape jail. But I do know that all the fucking idiotic, lame-brained "honor" in the world wouldn't comfort my family if I were rotting in jail. But let's just get this over with...do you believe, then, that it is always wrong to lie?

Posted: 1/4/2006 7:30:03 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Quoted:
We don't have much info, but based on what we do know, I am inclined to think that his actions, if a last resort, are honorable. However, saying he should have lied is preposterous. There are ways of protecting yourself without lying ("I'd like my lawyer present during this questioning," and 5th Amendment, anyone?). He chose not to protect himself...and not to lie.

You are advocating that he lie. That reveals something about your character.

No, I don't know for certain enough about his case to say he HAD to lie in order to escape jail. But I do know that all the fucking idiotic, lame-brained "honor" in the world wouldn't comfort my family if I were rotting in jail. But let's just get this over with...do you believe, then, that it is always wrong to lie?

As a matter of fact, I do.

You don't?

Posted: 1/4/2006 7:37:40 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
no excuses for anyone. he chose wrong. murder someone, death or life in prison. that is all. he got what he deserved.

Whats your definition of murder? Sounds to me like he killed a sick bastard who was hurting his daughter...AFTER the cops told him there was nothing they could do...and to call them AFTER he killed her....

Did the daughter like being treated that way but it upset the old man? We don't know.

I wonder how many people who are saying "good shoot!" also say "what happens between consenting adults is their business, not yours" in other threads.

Yep, from what I've read, he was a stand up guy, other than the whole masochistic asshole thing...

Dont give a fuck if the girl was into it or not...the shitbag pulled a knife at a gunfight. Buh-Bye cumstain.

Again, only beef I have with the old man is he didn't take the time to piss in the bullet holes when he dispatched the son of a bitch.

SG

Posted: 1/4/2006 8:10:03 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
While I agree that some people just need killing, murder is murder, plain and simple and nothing can be done to excuse it. There were other choices besides A) do nothing or B) kill the bastard.

Did you miss the part where the scum bag pulled a knife on him in his own home?

Posted: 1/4/2006 8:15:03 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So if the guy threatened him and others with a knife why was it not self defense?

+1?

This is in the his own words, he doesnt say anything about a knife.

It's Saturday, May 21st. In due time the ex-son-in-law shows up. He's giving me his screaming Cockney act. This is supposed to disgust me enough so that I will back off and leave him alone. A trick minorities around the world play on their masters. His yelling scares the little boy, who I am holding. Any doubts I might have had on where this is leading leave me now. I hand the boy back to his mother and ask her to take him back to his room to change his diapers. I don’t want him to be frightened further. I turn to the ex and ask him to move out to the sidewalk. I say, "I want to talk to you."

This works. He follows me out to the sidewalk. His yelling won’t frighten the grandson from here. He never shuts up though. He's still playing the crude Cockney bit to the hilt.

I try again and again to get a word in edgewise. I'm trying to save his life. Things only get worse. He still hasn't heard a word I've said. He actually thinks he's got me scared. He looks threatening. Poor fool. "You're going to hear from my lawyers tonight," he screams. He hasn't heard a word I've said.

I feel I have done my best. It’s his call now. I raise the stakes, I put my ten years in the prison out on the table as I call his bluff. I pull out the 9 millimeter automatic I have carried for every visit since his return from England. I release the safety and fire. My ten years in prison is my bet. He has just bet his life. He lost.

So, those were the cards that were dealt me. There will be no further torture of my daughter. My grandson will grow up to be a normal boy. And I can walk away from the Hell I have been living in to lead the simple life of an inmate in a California Prison.

He knew what would happen when he decided to kill the guy. If you play you pay.

And that's why you don't fuck with an old Marine.

Posted: 1/4/2006 8:17:58 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
damn....

If this is a free country why in the hell is that man in prison.

Words fail.

Kalifornistan comes to mind.

Posted: 1/4/2006 10:25:45 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Quoted:
While I agree that some people just need killing, murder is murder, plain and simple and nothing can be done to excuse it. There were other choices besides A) do nothing or B) kill the bastard.

Did you miss the part where the scum bag pulled a knife on him in his own home?

Pull a knife on somebody in Kansas and get your ass shot off it is Self Defense for the shooter. Guns and California is all I need to know about this case.

Posted: 1/4/2006 11:10:37 PM EDT

[#26]

Are you guys braindead or what? He describes in his own words what was going on and none of it rises to the level of abuse enough to justify murder by this delusional old prick.

For the doubting Thomas' out there, please read the entry "YOU HAVE TO PLAY THE HAND THAT WAS DEALT YOU" found HERE

Read that fricking link!
It sounds like all it was was a ugly child custody/divorce and hardly rose to the level where this man could just up and kill this guy.

This man deserves to be in jail no matter where he served. His defender obviously went twith the idea that he's nuts because there is no way to justify his assinine actions otherwise. And nowhere does he mention a knife!

Damn guys, wake the hell up!
Next you'll be defending Tookie Williams and saying his victims deserved it....

Posted: 1/4/2006 11:13:49 PM EDT

[#27]

Hello good friends. This is another trip report from your friend the traveler, who is still on that long journey so far away from America, thru the land on the other side of Outer Mongolia, the California Prison Empire. This trip report will be about a "winner". There aren't too many "winners" here in the Empire. But, there are a few.

I like to think I am one of them. This will be about me. "How can you call yourself a winner?" you say, "didn't the judge sentence you to 35 years in that place? That's a darn long time." Well, to begin with, forget what the judge said, I'm not going to hang around here for any 35 years. I expect to live to the age of 88 or 89. That means I will spend no more than 10 years in prison. I can live with that. I win, hands down, right there.

But, hold on, there's more to it than that. You see most of you know me as that nice Marine who made a tragic mistake one day and is going to pay for it for the rest of his life. I can appreciate this is a sympathetic interpretation of the events that sent me to prison. And I thank you for your trust in me. But, to be honest, if it were true, I couldn't live with myself.

The truth is, what happened was the only honorable conclusion possible, given the hand that I was dealt. Don’t shame me by describing what I did as an accident. Give me credit for doing the right thing, honoring my duty as a father, even tho it cost me my future. So let me tell you my story. See if you don’t agree? The point of this story is; "You have to play the cards that were dealt you". The measure of a man is how well he plays the hand.

Now, on with the story. Here's the hand that was dealt me.

My daughter, several years ago, while working as a highly paid engineer in France, met a charming English scoundrel with a Cary Grant accent, who loved everything American, he said. She married him and brought him back to America. He certainly was charming. He always said the right thing at the right time. Unfortunately, as she learns later, because he never lets the truth get in the way of a good answer. He's a master liar. Their marriage struggles on for several rocky years then founders.

Quote:
{Nancy: I met Nick at my going-away party just after completing my European assignment. He was a charmer and I found myself caught up in an unexpected romance that totally caught me off guard. In a few short months I was married to a man I hardly knew. Everything seemed so right at first but his demands started to grow beyond reason. Before I could understand what was really happening our relationship had rapidly deteriorated. I was not only embarrassed over his heavy drinking and loud behavior but had also gone into debt to pay for his special schooling. It seemed like there was nothing I could do to please him. He was a large man, physically, and my desire to be a good wife led to a series of intimidations. The emotional violence got to the point that divorce was the only solution. There was an unexpected complication, however, I was pregnant.}

When it founders, curiously enough, it is not because of his lying. The reason is far more serious. It turns out he has a secret vice. He is an abuser of women, a control freak, a sadist. The torture of a woman is what gives him his "Kicks." A character trait, we learn later from his family, that he learned from his father. (As so often is the case.)

My daughter leaves him and files for divorce but soon finds she really can’t get away. There's a baby son involved. Her Ex invokes a father’s legal right to child visitation and injects himself back into the family. He comes three times a week to pick up the child, using these visits as opportunities to continue his sadistic control over her life.

Every visit involves a screaming interrogation concerning the baby, her friends and her life. She ends most of them in tears. They‘re demeaning and vicious. Asked not for information but solely to hurt. This gives him his kicks. He actually ‘giggles’ when she breaks into tears.

My daughter seeks help from the law. She gets a restraining order which proves useless. (The law says he can interrogate her as much as he wants as long as it is done in the childs interest.) She writes some 22 letters to her lawyer over a period of time. A tragic litany of terror that would break the heart of anyone but a lawyer. Her lawyer charges her $300 each to read them and files them. (Her lawyer is one more woman charmed by the Cockney accent.)

So, she tries, and it does no good. We, her parents, stand by her and do our best to help her survive. Come the Christmas holidays that year we finally get a break. Her weird ex returns to England for a couple of weeks. We all get a wonderful relaxing breather. For the first time in months we can start the day knowing how it will end. (peacefully).

I make a decision at this time that I hope will extend this "grace period." I decide to handle the interface with the ex in all future visitation child exchanges. This is in line with a suggestion made by one of the spousal abuse books I checked out of the library. (Sad to say there is a whole shelf of these books. I am obviously not the only father with a problem.)

So that I can deal with this bully without fear, I plan to arm myself before a visit. (He does outweigh me by 30 pounds and he's 30 years younger.) In due time, the ex returns. And he comes back with a "Plan." He has listened carefully to his friends in England. (Can’t say much for such friends.) The “plan" is the result.

This is what his friends tell him: "Listen fellow, you've got a gold mine. You have a pension for life. Don't waste it. You married an American girl for her money? Well, you haven't lost it. Now is the best chance you will ever get to cash in. She's divorcing you? Get spousal support and better yet, get child support. American court awards are generous. You'll be able to live in England in luxury with that kind of money. All you have to do now is gain custody of your kid."

"My lawyer doesn't think I should mess with the kid,” he tells them.

“Don't be stupid," they answer, "he's your winning ticket. Fire the lawyer.”

He returns. He fires his lawyer. He gets a new one. She understands what needs to be done. (His lawyer is another woman. He's very persuasive with women.} "You will get the kid," she tells him.

After his return our relationship changes quite a bit. Surprisingly, he accepts me as the interface without any argument. Very curious!

I don't trust him though. I wait to see what will happen next. I don't have to wait long. One late Saturday afternoon my daughter gets a call from the emergency ward of the local hospital. Her baby they explain is in the intensive care unit. He's had his stomach pumped and his lungs drained. He was brought in by the father who insisted he had viral pneumonia. (He had a slight cold.}

They've done all the things a hospital does in such a case. They have been told by the father that his problem is due to improper care on the part of the mother. This smacks of child abuse hence the call to my daughter. I of course go with her.

By now the poor child is in real misery with tubes still coming out his nose. He's terrified. My daughter and I, after an interrogation, come across as decent responsible citizens. The hospital in time releases the child to us.

The ex can’t resist putting one more turn on the thumb screws. With the little boy now sobbing his heart out, he won’t let my daughter touch him until his visitation period has expired. We sit in a waiting room for another 30 minutes to allow him to complete his day. Anyway we rescue the little boy and get him home where he eventually calms down.

We don’t know it yet, but this is the fist step in the ex’s plan to gain custody of the boy. The date is mid January. From this time on never a week goes by that we aren't surprised by another strange medical check by the ex. One day he tries to convince the hospital that mosquito bites on the boys leg are signs of scabies. To disprove this my daughter has to make three visits to special dermatologists. After three weeks of scraping and lab tests they eventually confirm that those were mosquito bites. He then gets hauled off to dentists who observe a discoloration on his teeth, due, it is finally confirmed after a series of tests, to the grape juice in his diet.

Our life gets even more exciting as he moves out on another phase of his campaign. We are visited one night at 11 PM by a Child Welfare worker. The worker spends three hours with my daughter trying to confirm that there is no problem of child abuse (in spite of the calls his boss has been getting.}

Needless to say, this doesn't stop with the one visit. We are visited again by a young woman Child Welfare worker and later by some lady. All in response to late night telephone calls from a "concerned family member." Read that "Father with a "Plan".

As always my daughter comes across for just what she is, an intelligent loving mother who is doing her best to provide her child with a happy home in spite of everything.

However, Civil service bureaucracats have their limits. Their bosses can’t buck pressure forever. We learn now that the long delayed divorce trial will be forthcoming within the month. The pattern is clear now, and easy to interpret. The next visit to the hospital for the little boy will be done as a special show for the Child Welfare people. The baby will probably be checked by a doctor hired by the ex’s lawyers. That's when we lose the baby. That will probably occur a week or so before the divorce trial. If we are lucky, all we lose is custody of the child. If our luck isn’t so good, my daughter can well end up in jail for child endangerment.

Quote:
{Nancy: As a new mother I became terrified for my infant's safety. Whatever mistakes I had made in choosing a husband was now threatening my son's life. On top of having to learn how to care for a first-born, I had to sort out what was behind this vicious attack. The tension had also caused a relapse in my mother's heart condition which puts her in the hospital. The feelings of both fear and guilt for bringing this on my family began to be overwhelming.}

I watch all of this take place and realize we are losing the battle. As I look down the road that this leads to, I see nothing but misery for my daughter, my wife and my family. Our clever Cockney ex with the guidance perhaps of his friends has tapped that gold mine he came to America for. He will take the child back to England. The Child support and spousal support dollars will be guaranteed by American courts. He will probably turn the child over to his ex English wife (Who, according to court records brought out during the trial, is due to fly in to America this very weekend. May 21st.)

As I think about this, I ask myself what my duty is? The answer is clear. This is my daughter, that is my grandson. My duty is to protect my family.

Now, I am a Marine, whenever I use the word duty I mean it. I use it in the Marine sense. I put my life on the line. Just as I once did years ago when my country called me. My duty is to protect my family, my daughter. No question about it. I have an obligation to bring this absurd campaign of the ex’s to an end. Somehow I also have a feeling that time is running out. This is not something that can be put off to next summer or some better time.

It is my decision therefore that I will have to face the ex on his next visit. I shall do my best to make it clear to him this has all got to come to an end. And, If I cannot get him to listen then I will have to bring it to an end myself. In making this decision I am fully aware of the consequences. I fully understand that to do my duty may cost me my freedom. The thing is, there is no way I could live with myself and not act to protect my daughter. To stand to one side and let this man destroy her would destroy me too. That would be a "Hell" a hundred times worse than going to prison.

Quote:
{Nancy:My Dad and I suffered from post-traumatic stress syndrome because of Nick's abuse of me and my family. My suffering triggered vivid POW flashbacks for my Dad. Fear and terror ruled each day. Each day he would say to me, "They bombed yesterday until they couldn't bomb anymore and they are going to bomb today like they never did before." We waited for the next bomb attack.

Dad slept in the living room on the hardwood floor with a blanket which he would ritually unroll as if he were back in WWII as a Japanese POW making his bed on the tatami mat.. He started recalling and writing his POW memoirs. We lived only a moment at a time. There was no support, we were alone and trying to survive.}

It's Saturday, May 21st. In due time the ex-son-in-law shows up. He's giving me his screaming Cockney act. This is supposed to disgust me enough so that I will back off and leave him alone. A trick minorities around the world play on their masters. His yelling scares the little boy, who I am holding. Any doubts I might have had on where this is leading leave me now. I hand the boy back to his mother and ask her to take him back to his room to change his diapers. I don’t want him to be frightened further. I turn to the ex and ask him to move out to the sidewalk. I say, "I want to talk to you."

This works. He follows me out to the sidewalk. His yelling won’t frighten the grandson from here. He never shuts up though. He's still playing the crude Cockney bit to the hilt.

Quote:
Kay: I was watching at the nearest window as Nick confronted my husband just outside the door. Nick was screaming uncontrollably at the top of his lungs and making all kinds of threats. I feared for Dick's safety in spite of the gun. By nature, Dick is an unbelievably gentle person. We had been married for 48 years and I knew he would accept a lot of abuse before trying to defend himself.

I try again and again to get a word in edgewise. I'm trying to save his life. Things only get worse. He still hasn't heard a word I've said. He actually thinks he's got me scared. He looks threatening. Poor fool. "You're going to hear from my lawyers tonight," he screams. He hasn't heard a word I've said.

I feel I have done my best. It’s his call now. I raise the stakes, I put my ten years in the prison out on the table as I call his bluff. I pull out the 9 millimeter automatic I have carried for every visit since his return from England. I release the safety and fire. My ten years in prison is my bet. He has just bet his life. He lost.

So, those were the cards that were dealt me. There will be no further torture of my daughter. My grandson will grow up to be a normal boy. And I can walk away from the Hell I have been living in to lead the simple life of an inmate in a California Prison.

Believe me, it wasn' t a mistake. I simply played a bad hand for all it was worth and made it a winner.

Richard Keech
semper fi

Quote:
Nancy---It has been 5 years since Nick's reign of terror. My Dad and I don't live in terror anymore. The world seems safe again. My Dad is looking at the event from the safety of today, not the terror of yesterday. He isn't the same person he was then; he is remembering things from a different perspective.

Editor again: Richard looks forward to your responses, all of which I copy and send to him each week. Today Richard and his family have spoken out for the the first time to set the record straight... please feel free to respond.
Joan Keech Spann

This guy deserves to be in jail for behaving like a thug!
You cannot shoot a man because you don't like him arguing with your daughter!

Posted: 1/5/2006 3:07:11 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
We don't have much info, but based on what we do know, I am inclined to think that his actions, if a last resort, are honorable. However, saying he should have lied is preposterous. There are ways of protecting yourself without lying ("I'd like my lawyer present during this questioning," and 5th Amendment, anyone?). He chose not to protect himself...and not to lie.

You are advocating that he lie. That reveals something about your character.

No, I don't know for certain enough about his case to say he HAD to lie in order to escape jail. But I do know that all the fucking idiotic, lame-brained "honor" in the world wouldn't comfort my family if I were rotting in jail. But let's just get this over with...do you believe, then, that it is always wrong to lie?

As a matter of fact, I do.

You don't?

So, let's say you're Chinese, and a Christian. You go to an unregistered church and the government has found out about its existence, although it doesn't know about you yet. Your pastor is wanted for arrest---and you know if they get him, he will never get out of the gulag. He comes to you for help and you hide him in your attic. The next day, the secret police knocks on your door and asks you if you've seen him. You won't lie to them?

Posted: 1/5/2006 4:50:40 AM EDT

[#29]

www.richard-keech.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=58

IT WAS JUST A BAD DREAM - WASN'T IT?
October 2, 2000

I had a dream last night, a terribly real dream. So real I can still remember every scene in live action and vivid color. I must write all this down now, before the day is out. The thing is, I was told this dream would be totally erased from my memory by nightfall. So, let me begin:

In my dream, I’m lying in a casket, newly buried. There’s a smell of fresh earth around me. There's a couple of flowers on my chest, still unwilted.

Now, apparently dead men's eyes do not need light, and can see thru obstacles, because I remember studying the lid of that stupid casket, wondering why I hadn't been cremated as requested, and watching thru six feet of sod as a man goes over the top of the grave riding a lawn mower. (A noisy thing) Dead men can hear too, you know. They never tell you these things, do they?

I hear a sharp rapping sound. I look up. There's a man standing over my grave. He’s rapping on my grave marker with what looks like a riding crop. He’s wearing a beautiful pair of polished leather riding boots, knee high. He’s dressed in black with a very military look. He could be a Movie Director of the old school or a Prussian Officer of the German army. I watch and listen. He’s speaking to me. “Hey, down there” he says, There’s an odd foreign ring to his voice, but I can still make out the words. “Down there”, he says again, “I would talk with you.”

No problem, I think. Its better than staring at the top of a casket. “Sound off” I say. “There’s been a mistake” he says. “You’re not supposed to be here. The last few scenes of your life story were played out to the wrong script. Not your fault. It’s ours. What we want to do is to go back to where the mistake was made and reshoot those final scenes to the correct script.”

“The mistake happened some three and a half years back”, He adds.

“I’m not sure I understand” I answer. “Are you going to make me young again?.”

“No, that's not possible. You will still be 80 if you agree to this. However, you won't be dead. That isn't the way the correct script reads. You will simply be back on your predestined path of life.”

“Why are you asking me this? Do I have a say? If you are correcting a mistake, can I stop you.?”

“Yes, you can. If you stop us, then what happened wasn’t a mistake. The script then stands. It’s your choice.”

“My God, I think, Those last three and a half years were a living hell. I would have been far better off on a Japanese Death ship or The Prison camp at Nichols field under the “White Angel”. It couldn’t have been worse. Life was always fun though, before that time, I remember. I’m interested. I'll accept” I say.

Okay”, he says, “Thanks for being so understanding. Here goes. But, wait a moment”, he says, “I should warn you before we start, to shut your eyes tightly for just a bit. The real daylight now around you will seem blinding. When you can open them you will find yourself dressed in blue cotton clothing, sitting at a desk writing. You are reasonably healthy again, for a man of 80. You are surrounded by friends.

Things will seem almost normal to you in a few moments, as your new memory bank kicks in. It will take us a little bit more time to clear out all memory of those misplayed three and a half years. Those memories are very deeply embedded. But, we’ll have it all done by nightfall. I promise.”

I look up. Hey, this is great! I’m sitting at a simple steel desk, built into a wall. I’m in a rather narrow room with large window at one end looking out over an exercise field. I see a number of men, all dressed in the same blue cotton, walking, talking and exercising out on this field, just outside my window.

As my new memory kicks in I relax and breathe in the fresh Southern California air. I know where I am. I am a prisoner in a California State prison located in San Luis Obispo.

And, for the moment, I know where I was for those last three and a half years. I was in Hell.

I also know why. There is something I didn’t do three and a half years ago. That’s why.

“Not your fault”, the fellow in Black says, “Their mistake. Somebody screwed up, and one short scene was dropped from the script for that days taping”.

It is amazing really. That one missing scene had the effect of sending me thru three and half years of purgatory to the very gates of Hell.

That script, with one missing scene, kills my daughter, destroys my grandson, and sends my wife to the hospital for the rest of her life. In the end it kills me. All this in three and a half years.

The mistake? The missing scene? Well, on May 21st of the year 1996 the correct script called for me to pull out an automatic pistol and put an end to the life of the man who had been torturing my daughter thru her five years of marriage.

That man was a “Sadist” (Nowadays, to the politically correct people such men are euphemistically referred to as “Spousal Abusers”. That is not a correct analysis of this man or his character. The correct one still is “He is a Sadist”.)

A “Sadist” is a man who gets a sexual thrill from inflicting pain on women. (A psychosis generally considered to be incurable by the psychiatric medical community).

On that fatal day, with the wrong script in hand, that is not what happens. Instead, I find myself standing by, helpless, as the psychotic ex son-in-law picks up my daughters little boy and takes him away. (Presumably for a scheduled 4 hour visitation) We never see our grandson again.

We are called on the telephone that evening, by this same individual. Somehow he sounds happy now. He tells us the little fellow has been turned over to the county Child Welfare services as an abused child. (Needless to say nothing could be further from the truth. No Child was ever more loved and protected than my little grandson.) The police we are advised should be there any minute to arrest my daughter for child abuse and child endangerment.

This character, as he reports this terrible news, is so happy he giggles. He is in ecstasy. Its all about pain. This is what he lives for.

Think about it! You don't think that’s pain? You thought all spousal abusers left bruises and black eyes on their victims? Believe me those hurts don't begin to compare with the pain of losing your baby son to a sick psycho. Guess who does know this?

Two things have happened to produce this absurd but tragic situation:

It seems the lawyers of our psychopathic ex son-in-law have obtained the services of a Pediatric doctor familiar with dealing with the courts and the Welfare Agencies on such matters. For a modest $5000 retainer fee he has agreed to provide the medical confirmation of the story the lawyers want presented to court. He has been standing by all afternoon awaiting the opportunity to examine my grandson and earn his money.

My grandson plays right into his hands. He has a propensity for running a fever when he is scared and frightened. Upon examination, a most unfriendly scary one, he is discovered to be running a high fever. Ergo, he is an abused child, the doctor has earned his retainer.

Later that evening the police arrive with a warrant for my daughters arrest.

Believe it or not, from then on things get worse. We discover that the ex-wife of the ex-son-in-law has miraculously turned up from England. She says she knew her husband's marriage would soon come to an end. Apparently something he had promised her. She is prepared, she says to take over the burden of raising this poor child, in spite of his heritage. The mother being rich, she says, will of course be expected to foot all bills.

As my days in Hell proceed I watch the courts leap to bring to a conclusion the long drawn out divorce that my daughter had been suffering thru. The courts of course now give total custody of the small child to our ex son-in-law. He has suffered thru a lot, his lawyers explain, but is ready to do his duty by this small boy.

As soon as the decree is official, his ex-wife and the boy both disappear. We never see either of them again. They have invoked his British citizenship privilege and returned him to England.

My Daughter is now in the county jail on child endangerment charges. She spends two years in and out of jail. Her sentence is finally reduced to “time in Jail”, curiously enough at the insistence of her ex-spouse. He needs the spousal support money the divorce settlement entitled him to. (He could never keep a job for very long on his own). You can't get spousal support money from some one in jail.

Upon her release his lawyers hand my daughter a bill for over $100,000. This to cover two years of spousal support, child support, and medical bills for both the child and the ex spouse.

Our daughter now enters the most tragic period of her life. Her child, her beloved son is the pawn in a soon to be fatal game of control. A pawn to be threatened and abused as necessary to produce pain in his mother, my daughter. The pain that makes her sadistic spouse so euphoric.

She solves the problem in time in the only way possible. If her precious son is being held as a hostage pawn just to make her suffer there is a simple solution.

She has suffered for a long time from a stress induced sinus condition. She quits fighting it off and lets it take over. Dead, she can no longer be tortured. Her son can be released from his bondage.

Her action really upsets the ex-spouse. Now he’s got to start all over, It takes time to properly prepare a victim. And he’s lost his source of income at the same time. He realizes he may have pushed this victim a bit too far.

However no one will ever blame him for her death. She won't be counted as a statistic in any record of Spousal Abuse deaths (although she should). In fact there will be no police investigation of any sort, Torture is legal, you see, as long as there are no bruises.

The day is waning. My memory of that life to the wrong scenario is fading. But I can't close it out without a word about what happened to me. How did I end up in that casket? I ended up living out the last two line of my favorite poem. These tell us that “ Some men die by shrapnel, and some go down in flames”

One late afternoon, on my motorcycle on the freeway, I pass a minor traffic accident but ride thru a spreading pool of spilled gasoline. My tires lose traction, the bike falls over, and my bike and I slide for 100 feet throwing up sparks every foot of the way, sliding to a stop under a moving truck. My death is fiery, spectacular and instant. What more could any man ask for?

Now, back to that comfortable prison cell, I think to myself how happy I am that that was all just a bad dream. My daughter is happily remarried now. Her little son has all the love any child could ask for. My wife is healthy and still loves me. And I, as promised, am among friends, in good health, for a man in his 80s. I look up at my friend dressed in black, “It was just a bad dream wasn’t it?. It never really happened did it?” He smiles, then disappears.

Richard Keech
semper fi

and, probably more importantly,

www.richard-keech.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=98

DON'T WRITE THE GOVERNOR

Editor's Note: For those who read Richard's story, The Hand That's Dealt You and understand the terror that was being inflicted on his family, you may wonder how he is now viewing his incarceration. He told the judge when he received his life sentence, "As a Marine, I accept full responsibility for my actions." Consistent with this, he reminds his readers in the following report that he has no complaints about the verdict rendered. His support for the rule of law has never wavered and he wants his friends to continue to respect the American legal system, imperfect as it may be, as the best yet this world has to offer.

Dear friends, here' s another "trip report" from your friend the traveler. Not in America of course. I left America three years ago. I am somewhere on the other side of Outer Mongolia. I am traveling through the California prison Empire.

I'm in a prison. I broke a law. I was forced to kill a man to save my daughters life. Most of you know my story, and many of you have written asking how you can help. Those are kind words and I appreciate them. But, please, listen to me, the help I can use is not the help you have in mind.

You see, you think a prison is a terrible place, that a father who broke a law at the age of 76 to save a life shouldn't be there. Let me disagree. I picked this road. I had a choice. Prison, believe it or not, was by far the better option of the two that were available to me.

There are "hells" and there are "hells". Some hells are far worse than others. Watching helpless as a decent young woman is destroyed by a psychotic spousal abuser was a "hell" I could stand no longer. I opted for the prison "Hell." It was the right decision. My family is once again safe and free from fear.

I like to think I did what any father would have done. I did my duty. (In all fairness it wasn't as tough a decision as it might seem. I'm familiar with prisons. I spent 3 and 1/2 years in a Japanese prison during WW2. The Japanese prisons were many times more deadly than anything found in the California Empire. Yet, to bring this tragedy to an end I would have willingly gone back to one of them.)

Speaking now, as one of you, a responsible citizen, a man who believes in law and order, I say let the sentence stand. I broke a dumb law perhaps, maybe its a bad law, I don't know. What I do know is that we have to live under a system of laws. And we must be prepared to accept the penalty when we fail to do so.

So, don't write the Governor to plead for my release. I broke a law. I'll pay the price. For you fathers who are trying to raise children to respect the law, let them know it applies to everyone, even friends. There can be no exceptions.

Now, back to your question, how can you help me? Well, of course, don't write the Governor. I'm not saying this because I have any reason to dislike the man. The thing is, he's a politician. He does what it takes to please voters and get votes. This is a large State. He gets lots of letters. He has staff who read and screen them for him.

The important letters, in terms of the votes they represent, may get routed in to him. All others never get past the screening. The staff handles their answering by picking the correct form letter for the computer to print out. Or by routing them to lower level administrators who will in turn print out form letters on their computers . (such letters will all be prefaced with the words "The Governor has asked me to -- ".) Computers are great aren't they?

Why do I interrupt the report to tell you this? Because, according to the demographic studies so religiously used by the modern political staff, you, as a friend of a "felon" do not vote. You are a High School drop out. You've never had a steady job, and you now live well below the poverty line. There is no way a good staff man is going to bother the Governor with your problem. Just forget it and be happy with that form letter you got.

So you're sti11 a friend? You still would like to help? You would have done the same thing in the same situation, you say? Well thank you. Yes, you can help me. But first, let's clear the air on one important point. I am never going to leave prison. Take that as a "given". My life has to be built around that fact. Of course I would love to be out there with my family and the rest of you, but it isn't going to be. I would love to be 30 again and go to the South Pole too. That isn't going to happen either. And, I can live with that.

By the way, when I talk of accepting the inevitable and making the best of it I know you as a parent and responsible citizen will understand what I 'm saying. Your comment would undoubtedly be, "That's the right way to go. He' s got a good attitude."

There's a funny aspect to this. You see the prison will tell you I have a "bad" attitude. I am out of step with my peers. Prisons are successfully managed by manipulating the men through their hopes and fears. If 99% hope to get free one day, and will do whatever they are told in the meantime to insure that objective, then that one guy who says I know I'm never leaving has a bad attitude. He' s out of step.

But, to be real, my future lies here in prison, and I had better make the best of it. How can you help me, you ask again? Well, most of all, you can stay on the outside. That's where I need the help. The big problem facing a prisoner is he has no voice. He is forbidden to talk or write to the media. He can't talk or write to any political representative. His mail goes out stamped in red with the warning that this is letter from a prison inmate. (You can imagine the respect that receives.)

To get to the point, my family could use some help. My wife to be specific. The true tragedy of prison life is a man is powerless to help those he loves on the other side of the prison wall.

My wife, my loyal wife of 51 years, has been trying for almost a year to get my veterans Medical Disability pension money released to her. That' s some $2000 a month she' s been trying to break loose. According to the rules, I can't have it because I am in prison. But she as my wife has a right to it. All she is supposed to do is file a proper request. Its been a year or more and somehow no one seems to be able to clear the release of her money.

So don't call the Governor. That's not the help I need right now. Check my family for the necessary details, then break that money loose from the VA. Thanks for asking.

Richard Keech
semper fi

You can sit in judgement of him either way, that is an option that you freely have. I guess the point that I wanted to make in all this is, for right or wrong, Richard made a decision and took responsibility. Period. How many times do we see people NOT make decisions, and how many more times do we see people who do make decisions, then try to dodge the responsibility for them.

Whether I agree with his actions or not is not important. Until I have walked a mile in his shoes, I will never know exactly what I would have done if I ever found myself in the same position.

Posted: 1/5/2006 5:41:09 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
So if the guy threatened him and others with a knife why was it not self defense?

+1

AND, why not divorce and restraining order,
move in with mom and dad,
husband shows up.............

pop, pop, pop, pop,

no murder, just justice.

Posted: 1/5/2006 5:46:43 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
We don't have much info, but based on what we do know, I am inclined to think that his actions, if a last resort, are honorable. However, saying he should have lied is preposterous. There are ways of protecting yourself without lying ("I'd like my lawyer present during this questioning," and 5th Amendment, anyone?). He chose not to protect himself...and not to lie.

You are advocating that he lie. That reveals something about your character.

No, I don't know for certain enough about his case to say he HAD to lie in order to escape jail. But I do know that all the fucking idiotic, lame-brained "honor" in the world wouldn't comfort my family if I were rotting in jail. But let's just get this over with...do you believe, then, that it is always wrong to lie?

As a matter of fact, I do.

You don't?

So, let's say you're Chinese, and a Christian. You go to an unregistered church and the government has found out about its existence, although it doesn't know about you yet. Your pastor is wanted for arrest---and you know if they get him, he will never get out of the gulag. He comes to you for help and you hide him in your attic. The next day, the secret police knocks on your door and asks you if you've seen him. You won't lie to them?

You asked me if I believe it is always wrong to lie, Rik. I said yes. It doesn't matter what the circumstance, so you can stop with the hypotheticals right now. A "lie" is when you deliberately do not tell the truth. A deliberate attempt to NOT tell the truth is a sin. The Bible (which is part of the belief system you asked me about) is clear about this.

It is particularly telling when someone is NOT in the hypothetical "death is waiting outside the door" situation you provided for me...and that person STILL resorts to lying.

Posted: 1/5/2006 5:53:23 AM EDT

[#32]

Whats wrong with a good ass woppin?

If he couldn't do it get a friend to do it.

Assualt charges would have probably only got him probation at worst case a few years in jail.

Posted: 1/5/2006 6:13:28 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
OK - last one.

This one is about a relative of an acquaintance of mine. His story has impacted my life in so many ways I won't bother to list them here.

His name is Richard Keech. Richard is an 82 year old man. This is Richard and his family.

www.richard-keech.org/images/Richard+Family.jpg

This was Richard back in the day.

www.richard-keech.org/images/marine.jpg

This guy is a former Marine, a WWII vet and a former Japanese POW. If I recall correctly, Richard is also a Bataan Death March survivor. Many of Richard's current ailments are a result of his mistreatment at the hands of the Japanese while he was held as a POW. Do you think that is the worst thing he would possibly have to endure in his life? Read for yourself............then decide.

www.richard-keech.org/modules/news/

THIS IS THE ROAD I CHOSE

I looked out over our walls this morning toward those lovely green hills behind the prison. This is March and it's springtime in California.

As I stood there enjoying the scene I could imagine myself sitting on my Motorcycle cruising down an empty four lane black top as it winds thru those hills. That's a world I love, traveling the West on a motorcycle.

For a very brief moment I felt a twinge of regret. That's the road I should be on I thought.. Free and roaming the hills on my Honda, not here on the edge of the field in a prison yard surrounded by razor wire and high walls.

That moment fortunately was very brief. Then, I came to.

You see, I could be out there, I had a choice, but thats not the road I picked. I picked this one, the one I'm on, the better one.

At this point I hear some of you saying, "You had no choice? You committed a crime and are now paying for it!" Sounds reasonable doesn't it? It must be most reassuring to the good citizens of our State, knowing its criminals are being so punished.

Sorry to disillusion you folks but you've got it wrong. This is not a punishment. You're talking to the "winner." I am a "traveler" you see, on a long fascinating journey, not a "prisoner."

To be honest, I am traveling down a rather rough road at the moment with a lot of pot holes in it... But, it won't be the first rough road I have ridden on, and it certainly won't be the last. The fact is, it promises to produce just as much adventure and fun as any of the others in the past. So, let me repeat again, "I had a choice, and this is the road I picked."

At a critical fork in the road of life, a short time back, fate gave me a chance to choose which of two paths I wanted to follow. It was a fair offer. Fate even let me look ahead a bit to see where each one led. (I have always found "Fate" to be fair in its dealings with me.)

That peek into the future made the decision easy. Down one road I saw nothing but tragedy, death and shame. Down the other I saw life and freedom for my family and honor for myself. Thats the road I picked. Thats the road I am on now.

So, here's my story. Read it, then tell me what your choice would have been, had you been me.

First of all, what was the problem that forced me to make such a drastic choice? Well, listen up!

My daughter had married a "sadist," a man who got his sexual thrills through causing pain to others. His greatest thrill being when it was a woman in pain.

My daughters life was at risk. Torture is addictive, and each new high requires a stronger dose of pain to be inflicted on the victim. Battered women and the wives of spousal abusers all die young. The Police told me this, adding in the same breath that spousal torture is virtually impossible to prosecute.

Done out of sight of witnesses, to leave no bruises, there is no prosecutable evidence to show a jury. As a note of reassurance the Police would usually add, "Call us when he kills her. We'll have a good chance of nailing him then."

(Thanks guys. That makes me feel better.)

I researched the problem at our local library, hoping the experts could show me how to help my daughter. I learned a lot. But all bad news. The consensus among the experts was that this particular aberration of the brain is incurable. A sadist will continue to inflict pain and thrill to the screams of the victim until the day he dies.

And there you have the problem in one sentence. Curiously enough the solution is contained in the same sentence. The clue is the phrase: "Until the day he dies."

The solution: move that day up just a bit. Not politically correct, but practical. If someone is going to die, why not the abuser?

And here is where it quits being theoretical. If, to save my daughters life, her torturer has to die, than it is my duty as her father to see that it is done.

A duty I accept, proudly yet sadly. I find no pleasure in taking a life (I never even go hunting). But, duty is duty. And, protecting my family is my duty.

Now I am not stupid. I am well aware of what the laws say on this. If I have to kill a psychotic torturer to save my daughters life, I will have to break a law. I know that.

This is where the road into the future forks, and fate gives me a choice on which to take.

I could stand back and watch her abuser torture and terrorize her and do nothing. After all it's up to the law to protect her. I could watch her die, a broken woman. Taking this road I would break no law. Taking this road I would die a broken man myself and I would die of shame.

Or, there's the other choice Fate gave ms. I could break a law. I could kill the abuser. I could honor a fathers duty to his daughter. My family would be free once again from terror. Everyone could return to productive happy lives. And I would go off to prison.

Not a bad deal really. You see at 78 I am already on borrowed time. I shall spend no more than ten years in prison, no matter what any Judge says. I can live with that.

Now, I do have sort of a "leg up" on prison life. I spent 3 and 1/2 years in Japanese prisons during WW2 as a prisoner of war. I learned about guards and prison diets from experts. I could handle it then. I darn well can handle it now.

So there you have my story. As you can see I am on a long journey traveling down a road of my choice. I am not a prisoner.

Of course the road I picked has pot holes in it. But so did the run over the mountains from Puebla, Mexico, to Oaxaca that I rode some 5 years ago on my ride to Panama. And, I loved every Mile of it.

Rough roads are exciting roads that usually end up in interesting places.

So, don't waste tears on me, dear friends. Life has been good to me. I have no regrets. I shall pray that each of you at 82 can look back and say the same.

Richard Keech
Semper Fi

That's right. Richard bought a gun with the sole purpose of protecting his daughter. Richard decided to intervene one night when his daughter was being abused, right in front of him. He was confronted by his daughters husband, who pulled a knife on him and threatened him to stay out of it. Keep in mind, at this point, Richard was a 70 some odd year old man, debilitated by injuries he suffered as a POW. Richard chose to protect his daughter and, by doing so, sacrificed himself. Richard has spent that last few years locked up in tha California prison system. He is, after all, a criminal who committed a haneous crime. He is not with his wife of more than 50+ years, who visits him every chance they are allowed.

He has no regrets.

If you write Richard, he will write you back.

Richard Keech K86028
Pleasant Valley State Prison
C3-121L
PO Box 8503
Coalinga, CA 93210

Thats a man with a pair of brass balls and the conviction to defend what is right. Right on Richard!!!

I'd do the same thing given the circumstances. And, if I'd have been on his jury I'd have hung that jury into perpetuity and never reversed my decision.

Posted: 1/5/2006 6:26:25 AM EDT

[#34]

This is one of the FEW cases where a man needed killin'.

I'd have hung the jury.

Posted: 1/5/2006 6:30:06 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
Whats wrong with a good ass woppin?

If he couldn't do it get a friend to do it.

Assualt charges would have probably only got him probation at worst case a few years in jail.

He's only going to do "a few years in jail"......he's an old man. But....this world is rid of a demon at his gracious hand. Thanks Richard, you did the right thing.

Posted: 1/5/2006 6:33:02 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
You asked me if I believe it is always wrong to lie, Rik. I said yes. It doesn't matter what the circumstance, so you can stop with the hypotheticals right now. A "lie" is when you deliberately do not tell the truth. A deliberate attempt to NOT tell the truth is a sin. The Bible (which is part of the belief system you asked me about) is clear about this.

It is particularly telling when someone is NOT in the hypothetical "death is waiting outside the door" situation you provided for me...and that person STILL resorts to lying.

Life in prison IS death. It's your death to your family and possibly your actual death, given the situation in many prisons. And if you think that lying to defend innocent life is a sin, I think you need to rethink your philosophy.

Posted: 1/5/2006 6:37:51 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Whats wrong with a good ass woppin?

If he couldn't do it get a friend to do it.

Assualt charges would have probably only got him probation at worst case a few years in jail.

He's only going to do "a few years in jail"......he's an old man. But....this world is rid of a demon at his gracious hand. Thanks Richard, you did the right thing.

What good is he to his family/anyone in jail though?

A great man did the world a favor- yes, but he willfully broke the law.

It just sucks all around.

Plus, he added to the ATF's Gun Violence stats. And you KNOW that if/when the case gets written up in the press (or God forbid put on Dateline or 60 Minutes) the Brit will be a loving, caring man who left England afraid of America's cowboy past...

Posted: 1/5/2006 6:37:56 AM EDT

[#38]

Did the daughter like being treated that way but it upset the old man? We don't know.

I wonder how many people who are saying "good shoot!" also say "what happens between consenting adults is their business, not yours" in other threads.

It's not that unusual for a socio-path to charm him or herself into a marriage and then use any children as leverage. Unless you have dealt with them, you don't know how manipulative that type of personality can be--they KNOW which buttons to push and how hard.

I don't know if I would have done what Mr. Keech did-although I understand his reasoning. He made his choice and paid the price. I respect that.

Posted: 1/5/2006 6:50:26 AM EDT

[#39]

Richard Keech gets no sympathy from me. He's a murdering thug.

I really doubt his version is the complete story, I really doubt he planned to kill his daughter's ex and stand up and take responsibility for it. I think he's just as bad as the daughter's ex, and when faced with what he had done, he tries to elicit some form of sympathy by playing the "I'm Doing The Honorable Thing" act.

He was being the tough guy, and ended up killing someone and now he's the honorable Marine.

Gimme a fucking break.

He had plenty of options, from the start to the end, and he (and his daughter) played them all wrong.

And before someone posts "He's not looking for sympathy", he is. If he weren't, he would NOT have his story put up on the internet.

If he were not a WW2 vet you guys wouldn't give a flip about him either. Just because of his service in the Corps and WW2 does not make him a great guy or right about murdering someone.

And I'll go one step farther. I would even bet his daughter learned to accept abuse from men at the hands of who? You got it, dear old honorable dad.

Posted: 1/5/2006 6:53:20 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
Did the daughter like being treated that way but it upset the old man? We don't know.

I wonder how many people who are saying "good shoot!" also say "what happens between consenting adults is their business, not yours" in other threads.

It's not that unusual for a socio-path to charm him or herself into a marriage and then use any children as leverage. Unless you have dealt with them, you don't know how manipulative that type of personality can be--they KNOW which buttons to push and how hard.

I don't know if I would have done what Mr. Keech did-although I understand his reasoning. He made his choice and paid the price. I respect that.

That's where I'm at in all honesty. He made his bed, he gets to lay in it.

To have to make that decision, though... That sucks.

Posted: 1/5/2006 7:02:46 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
Richard should be telling a different story and should have a better lawyer.

The story should go something like:

I was at my daughter house. My SIL became abusive to me and my daughter. I tried to call the police but he would let me. I shot my SIL after he pulled a knife and threatened to kill me and my daughter. I didn't want to shoot him. I never planned to shoot him.

no shit! either that or "where'd dickhead go? i aon't seen him in months!"

Posted: 1/5/2006 7:07:07 AM EDT

[#42]

A news story about the murder...

Link

A World War II veteran who maintained that a flashback to his days as a prisoner of war had led him to kill his son-in-law was found guilty of first-degree murder today.

The defendant, Richard Keech, 77, had said he thought he was shooting a Japanese guard when he shot his daughter's estranged husband, then chased him down the street and fired four more bullets into him.

The jury began deliberating on Nov. 18. Mr. Keech faces a maximum prison sentence of 35 years to life when he is sentenced on Jan. 20.

Prosecutors insisted that Mr. Keech had concocted the story about wartime stress as an excuse for shooting Nicholas Candy, 47, who was in a bitter divorce and custody battle with Mr. Keech's daughter.

Mr. Keech shot Mr. Candy after he appeared at the Keeches' home here to get his 14-month-old son for a court-arranged visit in May 1996.

When the two men argued, Mr. Keech said, he ''snapped'' and went for the semiautomatic handgun in his waistband, flashing back more than 50 years to the Philippines, where he was a marine in Japanese prisoner-of-war camps.

Posted: 1/5/2006 7:32:03 AM EDT

[#43]

I would say that, even in Kaliforniaztlan he might have gotten ONE chance. It was the chase down / extra 4 rounds that gave his lawyer fits. Bad shot placement + 9mm?

Posted: 1/5/2006 8:00:10 AM EDT

[#44]

sad but honorable tag.

The injustice here is with the 12 insane and irresponsible jurors that convicted him.

I would have paid money to be on that jury.

Posted: 1/5/2006 8:13:35 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
You asked me if I believe it is always wrong to lie, Rik. I said yes. It doesn't matter what the circumstance, so you can stop with the hypotheticals right now. A "lie" is when you deliberately do not tell the truth. A deliberate attempt to NOT tell the truth is a sin. The Bible (which is part of the belief system you asked me about) is clear about this.

It is particularly telling when someone is NOT in the hypothetical "death is waiting outside the door" situation you provided for me...and that person STILL resorts to lying.

Wow.

Posted: 1/5/2006 8:19:23 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
When the two men argued, Mr. Keech said, he ''snapped'' and went for the semiautomatic handgun in his waistband, flashing back more than 50 years to the Philippines, where he was a marine in Japanese prisoner-of-war camps.

he prolly shoulda screamed, "you'll never take me alive, ya jap bastard!"

but 5rds to take the guy down??? you sure this guy was a marine? jack webb is NOT pleased!

Posted: 1/5/2006 10:39:18 AM EDT

[#47]

Originally Posted By KC-130 FLT ENG:

And I'll go one step farther. I would even bet his daughter learned to accept abuse from men at the hands of who? You got it, dear old honorable dad.

and that last step really made you look like an ass.........

Posted: 1/5/2006 10:43:14 AM EDT

[#48]

Like I said before, I guess everyone here has a right to an opinion on what he did. However, unless you know all the details of the case, or, at least bothering reading some of the website, it is nothing more than Monday morning quarterbacking.

www.richard-keech.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=141

Four thousand women died last year at the hands of abusive spouses. This apparently is a well documented statistic. And, more will die this year, because nothing is being done to stop it.

It's time for someone with courage to stand up and speak out for this tragic group of women. Someone willing to say, "That's wrong," even though they say, "it's politically correct." I hereby volunteer.

What better way to close out 82 years of a good life, than to dedicate one's last battle to a fight for a good cause. Every man should try to leave a footprint or two in the "sands of time." Let this be mine.

I speak from experience. I have lived thru an abusive spouse family trauma. My daughter was married to such a man.

From first hand knowledge I know what happens in a family when a member is the victim of an abusive spouse. I lived thru it, and so did my daughter.

To solve the problem I was forced to break a law. That should not have been necessary. But, it was. As you know, that's why I am in prison.

I think my tour of duty as a suffering family member has given me some insight into the problem. So, please hear me out. Something has to be done.

Frankly, the problem of spousal abuse is getting worse. What we as a society have been doing to stop it hasn't worked.

We have tried to solve the problem by writing lots of laws, politically correct laws, nice sounding laws, ineffective laws that do not relate to the real world.

We ignore the facts and just write laws that sound good. The result, sadly, is that these poorly devised laws end up adding to the problem.

Let me explain: Just to start with, we write laws that are impossible to enforce (for the purpose intended). Laws against spousal abuse being an excellent example.

To prosecute a crime in court you have to prove that a crime occurred. You have to have witnesses or evidence.

Spousal abuse occurs in the privacy of the bedroom. There is never a witness to abuse in the bedroom.

And, if the abuser is experienced, there will be no visible evidence of the abuse on the body of the victim. (The German Gestapo or the Russian GPU would be happy to explain how one can torture yet leave no marks on the body.)

Thus, since under our system of Law you cannot charge a man with a crime without being prepared to prove it, these laws are unenforceable. They are useless.

At this point you may ask, "If there were no witnesses, and no evidence that can be used in court, how do we know there was a crime?

Speaking as a member of an abused woman's family let me answer that. Everyone in the family knows what's going on. The abuse is no secret. It is simply not provable in a court of law. You call the cops, they are sympathetic, but they point out the District Attorney won't touch the case. There is no proof he can use in court.

You know what the cops once told me. "Call us when he kills her. We should be able to do something then." That sounds funny here on paper. But, they weren't really joking.

So, we have laws that are unenforceable. Not uncommon, not a problem you suggest. Well, curiously enough these same well intended laws are a major part of the problem.

You see the problem of spousal abuse is not a new one, but until recently society had a built in control mechanism that worked fairly well. The victims family.

Families always know when a daughter or sister is being abused. The historic and very normal control for this is for a father of brother to take the abuser aside and promise to "beat the Hell out of him" if he ever hurts their girl again.

It worked well because most abusers are cowards at heart. They can be scared into stopping.

The duty of the family to protect its children is basic to survival of the race thruout the animal kingdom. It has always worked. We are still here, as proof of that.

No longer so. Now we have laws that make a brother or father's threat a crime. A felony. These laws which so blithely put an end to all "domestic violence" do just that. You cannot threaten an abuser ever again.

And when you do, it isn't in the bedroom of course.. It is out in the open with witnesses. Guess who will call the cops immediately,. You're right, the abuser.

"You threatened this citizen, this family member with "violence"? That's a crime." This brings to an end the only source of protection the victim had. This stops her family from doing anything to help.

"You threatened the abuser?". You will end up in court. Once there no one will ask you why you threatened him. They only want proof that you did. They want a conviction. (And the abuser will see to it they have plenty of witnesses.)

"You broke a law. You should have known better." They will say. "Don't bother the court with reasons. No one is interested."

It probably won't surprise you to learn that dedicated abusers of women are well versed on their legal rights. Unlike the brother or father who find themselves dealing with the law for the first time, the abuser knows exactly where to go and what to say.

The laws making "domestic violence" illegal have been studied carefully by him. What he sees is a perfect protection against threats from his spouses male relatives.

He actually has the support of the DA in this. He will produce Domestic violence law breakers that the DA can convict because there will be all sorts of witnesses.

In a nutshell, the well intended politically correct laws enacted in recent years have brought an end to the natural process of stopping spousal abuse thru the use of family pressure. The Abuser can play his vicious game in complete safety.

How do I know this? Because I was once the man who risked prison every time he talked to his daughters abusive spouse. He always carried a hidden tape record and always reviewed our conversations with his lawyer afterwards.

(He would do his best to anger me and get me to say something "threatening" to show his lawyer.)

Rather sad in a way. You see he really was a coward. Had I been able to talk clearly to him, and warn him, he would probably have backed off. But he never gave me a chance. He was so sure he had the law on his side he didn't have to listen.

He left me ultimately, with but two choices. Both would send me to prison for the rest of my life. (at the age of 76)

I could threaten him in the front of witnesses and hope he would listen, (that's good for 10 years in prison), or I could take it one step further and bring his career to an end. (Good for 35 years) Both would get me prison for life.

You all are aware of the option I selected.

So, what can we do? How should we protect battered women? I would return their defense to the way it has been carried out since time immemorial. Let the family speak to the abuser. The family knows what is going on. They always do.

I would insist that where defending a loved one is the reason for the act that that reason be listened to in court. The world is not better off because a district attorney achieved a 100% conviction ratio. Not if he stopped the men who were trying to protect their battered sisters and daughters.

I would suggest we listen to the family of the battered woman, and believe them. Admit we cannot produce evidence of crimes occurring in the bedroom. So if those crimes are to be discouraged give some support to the family who can do something.

This isn't just "talk." I'm serious. Quit worrying about me. I'll survive, help me do something for someone who may not survive.

I saved one battered woman's life. Help me save one more. Don't worry about me, instead, help the next father or brother of a battered woman. Don't let them send him to prison for life too.

Richard Keech
semper fi

Posted: 1/5/2006 10:50:54 AM EDT

[#49]

Here's a little less biased view of the story:

query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9903E2DC1F30F93BA3575AC0A961958260&sec=health&pagewanted=all

September 8, 1997
Veteran Links Prison Camp Terror to Slaying
By DON TERRY

For 50 years, Richard Keech tried to forget his ghosts.

As a young marine in World War II, Mr. Keech spent more than three years as a prisoner of war in Japanese camps and helplessly watched many brave buddies die from disease, hunger and brutality.

But he survived, returned home to Long Beach, finished college, got married and raised a family on Carfax Avenue, a street of single-family houses and big yards in this city just south of Los Angeles.

He seemed like everybody's grandfather, and that is why it was so hard to believe when Mr. Keech shot his son-in-law to death last year.

But when Mr. Keech's trial on charges of first-degree murder begins on Monday, what will make his case even more unusual is his defense. Mr. Keech says the ghosts had a hand in the killing.

He and his lawyers say that post-traumatic stress from his days as a prisoner so heightened his sense of danger that when he got into an argument with his daughter's estranged husband, Nicholas Candy, 47, fear of his much larger son-in-law so overwhelmed him that the killing was an act of self-defense.

Mr. Keech, a retired office manager, said that he and his daughter had faced months of threatening confrontations with Mr. Candy. On May 21, 1996, when Mr. Candy came to the house to pick up his son, Mr. Keech had a 9-millimeter pistol in his waistband, under his shirt. The two began arguing at the curb. Mr. Keech pulled the gun, shot his son-in-law in the side and then followed him down the sidewalk, shooting him four more times after he fell face first on a neighbor's lawn.

Mr. Keech does not deny what happened. How could he? Practically the whole block saw him do it.

A witness told the police that as Mr. Keech tucked the gun in his belt and walked home, he heard him mutter, ''It's over. He won't be bothering anyone anymore.''

''I snapped,'' Mr. Keech said in a recent interview. ''I was afraid for my life. I thought I was back in the prison camp, and I was about to be beaten to death.''

At the time of the shooting, Mr. Keech's daughter, Nancy, 38, and Mr. Candy, a rugby-playing Englishman, were involved in a bitter divorce and a custody dispute over their 14-month-old son, Martin. Mrs. Candy had left her husband nine months earlier and she and her son were living with her parents. Mr. Candy had visitation rights four times a week.

The Keech family says that for months Mr. Candy harassed, threatened and stalked them so aggressively that Mrs. Candy had received an order of protection.

''It was torture,'' she said. ''I was afraid of him. He left a message on my answering machine, 'Nancy, I'll be your worst nightmare.' I knew what that meant. I was going to be dead. Nick was going to kill me someday.''

Mr. Keech, who is out on bond, said that in the confrontations with his son-in-law, and in the final argument, he felt the same terrifying sense of helplessness and impending death that he had felt almost every minute he was a prisoner.

''I had watched my buddies die in the prison camp,'' said Mr. Keech, whose friends call him Dick. ''I wasn't going to watch my daughter die.''

The prosecution calls the shooting a case of cold-blooded murder and says Mr. Keech's war experiences were too long in the past to be of any help in explaining what he did.

''This was an out and out execution,'' said Ronald M. Geltz, the Los Angeles County deputy district attorney in charge of the case. ''This was an opportunity for Mr. Keech to end a conflict between his family and Mr. Candy. This was not a case of someone snapping.''

But several experts on post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, said that it is at least possible that 50-year-old experiences of horror could linger and then explode in dangerous flashbacks and memories.

''Quite honestly, we don't know where this stuff goes or what it can cause somebody to do,'' said Dr. C. Scott Saunders, a psychiatrist who has treated veterans and civilians suffering from post-traumatic stress. ''Can 50-year-old symptoms come back? Yes. Can they come back this vividly and cause him to do this stuff? I don't know. It's possible.''

Dr. David Spiegel, a professor of psychiatry at Stanford University, said that if someone had spent three years in a war camp ''it wouldn't be surprising that he would have enough experiences to develop PTSD.''

Dr. Spiegel said that it is not uncommon for veterans entering their 60's and 70's to have more nightmares about combat than younger veterans. ''When people get to that age,'' he said, ''recent memory isn't as good, but remote memories tend to become even more vivid.''

Mr. Keech said that he was unaware of having had any previous instances of post-traumatic stress, and while both doctors said it was unlikely for symptoms to take 50 years to surface, it was not impossible. But both agreed that the fact that Mr. Keech had tracked Mr. Candy down the street after the first shot made his claim more doubtful.

One of Mr. Keech's lawyers, Albert C. S. Ramsey, said the defense team was in a difficult but, ''we trust, explainable situation.''

''There's always a chance,'' Mr. Ramsey said, ''that someone will say we are just making this stuff up, like people say the Holocaust did not happen.''

Veterans are not the only people who suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder. People who have experienced trauma, including rape survivors, natural disaster victims, police officers and battered women can be affected by it.

But, post-traumatic stress is, in itself, not a defense. It is an explanation, said one of Mr. Keech's lawyers, Paul Mones. Mr. Keech's experiences, Mr. Mones said, made him extremely sensitive to threats. Mr. Candy outweighed his father-in-law by 60 pounds.

The judge, William Garner, has yet to rule on allowing the defense to use PTSD evidence.

As part of their case, defense lawyers say they intend to call several other American World War II veterans who had been prisoners of the Japanese to testify about life and death in the camps and the scars left on their bodies and their emotions.

One is Martin Christie, 75, who was in most of the same camps as Mr. Keech was, although at different times. ''It was like living in hell,'' Mr. Christie said in an interview. ''I can remember a number of people beaten so badly that they died. I was personally beaten with pick handles, rifle butts, fists.''

But Mr. Candy's sister, Jocelyne Candy Bunyan, said that Mr. Keech's experiences were being used as an excuse. ''He's Satan on earth,'' she said.

Mrs. Candy Bunyan said her brother, a construction manager who had just earned a master's degree in business administration, was never violent and was devoted to his son and continued to love his estranged wife. She said Mr. Keech manipulated his family and that it was her brother who was mistreated.

If Mr. Keech is convicted, he could be sentenced to 25 years to life in prison.

As Mr. Keech talked in his backyard, his grandson and daughter came in. The boy showed off a new toy and ran inside the house, quickly followed by his mother. Mr. Keech smiled at the boy's back.

''I'm not afraid of prison,'' he said. ''I've been there before. I think I can stand anything now, knowing that my daughter is not being tortured anymore, that my family is safe.''

Posted: 1/5/2006 10:55:37 AM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
Quoted:
So if the guy threatened him and others with a knife why was it not self defense?

Welcome to California.

Since you read the trial transcript you understand the special circumstances that were involved yet you offer only this one short quip?

Thats the road I picked. Thats the road I am on now.

Sounds like the guy made the choice on what hill to die on with both eyes fully open and his seat back in the up-right possition. Rather than just hood slide his wave into the grave as it sounds some might do here this former POW made the decission to make yet another difference in this world.

That's pretty damn brave in my book.

This former marine and Californian found a stance worth giving his very life for. That's damn honorable and must be puzzling to many here of far less convictions.

I only hope that I find such a noble cause to give the rest of my life for.

What passes for conviction with you?

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Another humbling post: involves a WWII vet, a gun, and a moral decision that changed MANY lives (Page 2 of 3)

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