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Posted: 1/2/2006 7:14:55 PM EDT
From the Western Front to Normandy to Frozen Chosin, and every continents of the Earth, in hands of Teddy Roosevelt, Ernest Hemingway to everyman, 100 years of world-beating and ass-whooping.

Link Posted: 1/2/2006 7:19:36 PM EDT
Well it's not until Oct 17 IIRC.

But




Link Posted: 1/2/2006 7:22:41 PM EDT
Was the 1903 springfield chambered in a different caliber before 1906 then? I'm not familiar with the history.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 7:23:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 7:25:51 PM EDT by MonkTx]
The M1903 was chambered in 30-03, in '06 the bullet was changed and I think the shoulder angle giving us the 30-06, in civilian parlance.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 7:29:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 9:24:39 PM EDT by txgp17]

Originally Posted By MonkTx:
The M1903 was chambered in 30-03, in '06 the bullet was changed and I think the shoulder angle giving us the 30-06, in civilian parlance.

If not the absolute truth, this is very near to it. Happy B-day.
.30-03
.30-06 Springfield

The .30-03 cartridge also caused severe erosion of the bore of the rifle, due to the high pressures and temperatures needed to push the heavy bullet to the desired velocity. The heavy bullet was also an issue; the 220 grain bullet was aerodynamically inefficient and had a very curved trajectory (see external ballistics) so it was not well suited for long range shots. It was also unfashionable, since most countries had switched to a 7 or 8mm Mauser cartridge firing a lighter (around 150 grains), spitzer pointed bullet at a higher velocity. This gave better energy retention and a flatter trajectory. The .30-03 was shortened slightly (.07 inches in the neck), the powder was reformulated to burn cooler, and the bullet was changed to a 150 grain spitzer bullet, creating the .30-06 cartrdige.

Since the new .30-06 was shorter than the .30-03, it could fire in 1903 rifle, but with poor accuracy. The 1903 rifles were all recalled, fitted with the Model of 1905 sights and bayonet, and rechambered for the new .30-06 cartridge. This ended the short life of the .30-03; out of nearly 75,000 made, no more than a handful of original 1903 rifles escaped the conversion to .30-06 (estimates range from 50 to 100 rifles), becoming rare collectors items. Even the .30-03 cartrdige is a rarity, found only in collections of rare cartridges.

Link Posted: 1/2/2006 7:35:08 PM EDT
The 30-03 used a long round nosed bullet that looked like a torpedo. It was really short lived, because in 1905 the Germans came out with their new variation of the 7.92*57 cartridge. This round had the effect of putting all others into the dustbin of history, and the other nations copied it. The 'Spitzer' round was pointed, lighter, and hotter. It gave MUCH improved performance out to some serious ranges, and gave most military planners of the day wood. Some remained with the old bullet, but likely only because they couldn't afford to change (8*50R in Bulgaria), or planned to change but never got around to it (6.5*52 Carcano).

Thus, we scrapped the '03, and quickly re-did it as the '06. The cartridge was changed just slightly, which made it unable to fire (fit) in the '03 chambered guns, whereas the '03 cartridge could be fired safely in '06 chambered guns.

IMO, the most impressive round of that era was the 7.65*54 Argentine Bala SS 1909 round, which is nearly a duplicate of 7.62*51, without the extra 1 cm cartridge length of the '06.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 7:48:10 PM EDT
The model 1906 cartridge was adopted by the US Ordnance Department on October 15, 1906.

- Lt. Col. William S. Brophy, The Springfield 1903 Rifles, page 34.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 8:32:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SWS:
The model 1906 cartridge was adopted by the US Ordnance Department on October 15, 1906.

- Lt. Col. William S. Brophy, The Springfield 1903 Rifles, page 34.



Well I was off by 2 days, not bad.

The .30-03 case was a bit longer in the neck.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 9:02:44 PM EDT
If you look at all bullets circa pre-1900 they were solid lead and HUGE! even if the caliber was only .30 . It was because of black powder and what not. THen they all changed over to the FMJ smokless powder variety. Some cartridges were the same but with a different bullet. Like the 7.62x54r or the mauser 8mm, and others got scrapped for better cartridges. The fact that the carcano was never updated shows how piss poor the army was and how they got their butts handed to them in both World wars.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 9:15:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By t-stox:
The fact that the carcano was never updated shows how piss poor the army was and how they got their butts handed to them in both World wars.



Sure didn't hold it back from that one day in Dallas. 6.5mm Carcano has very unique and strange ballistics.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 9:27:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By t-stox:
If you look at all bullets circa pre-1900 they were solid lead and HUGE! even if the caliber was only .30 . It was because of black powder and what not. THen they all changed over to the FMJ smokless powder variety. Some cartridges were the same but with a different bullet. Like the 7.62x54r or the mauser 8mm, and others got scrapped for better cartridges. The fact that the carcano was never updated shows how piss poor the army was and how they got their butts handed to them in both World wars.




Bullshit, if you ever fired Black powder you woudl know that 32 is the smallest diameter you can go without having to clean a BP weapon ALOT. the 30-03 was always smokeless (smokeless having become very common in 1895 and mostly common in 1894 with the 30-30 and 25-35 winchester rounds)

round nosed bullets were used because noone ever though different, until someone did, and then everytign changed. People genrally as a rule don't see howthings could be better until they are
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 10:20:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalPenguin:

Originally Posted By t-stox:
If you look at all bullets circa pre-1900 they were solid lead and HUGE! even if the caliber was only .30 . It was because of black powder and what not. THen they all changed over to the FMJ smokless powder variety. Some cartridges were the same but with a different bullet. Like the 7.62x54r or the mauser 8mm, and others got scrapped for better cartridges. The fact that the carcano was never updated shows how piss poor the army was and how they got their butts handed to them in both World wars.




Bullshit, if you ever fired Black powder you woudl know that 32 is the smallest diameter you can go without having to clean a BP weapon ALOT. the 30-03 was always smokeless (smokeless having become very common in 1895 and mostly common in 1894 with the 30-30 and 25-35 winchester rounds)

round nosed bullets were used because noone ever though different, until someone did, and then everytign changed. People genrally as a rule don't see howthings could be better until they are



It also happened to be the same bullet that the .30/40 Krag had used.

It was also a result of the general resistance to going to a smaller cartridge (sound familiar?)

If they absolutly HAD to go to .30 cal they were damn well going to keep the biggest bullet they could.

Roosevelt had to PERSONALLY intervene more than once in the development of the 1903 series rifles and their ammo by sending very POINTED letters to Army officers or inviting them to shooting weekends where he chatted them up- and showed off his modern rifles.

The .30/06 is by far the largest (6mm- almost a quarter inch- longer than the next closest) and most powerful of the bolt rifle cartriges ever made. It was WAY over powered. Also a side effect of the resistance to small bore cartridges.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 10:48:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 10:49:18 PM EDT by pv74]
.303 Bristish was originally a compressed black powder load, but was quickly changed over to smokeless.

30-03 was always smokeless, and so was 30-40 Krag...
I think Winchester chambered the 1895 in .30-03?

Anyhow, the .30-06 is a nifty cartrdige...one of my favorites...
Add a little IMR4895, a 150 grain bullet and you are all set...

Link Posted: 1/2/2006 10:55:49 PM EDT

6.5mm Carcano has very unique and strange ballistics.


? I don't know much about that cartridge, could someone expain.

Link Posted: 1/2/2006 11:19:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 11:20:02 PM EDT by txgp17]

Originally Posted By rwinn625:

6.5mm Carcano has very unique and strange ballistics.
? I don't know much about that cartridge, could someone expain.

Kennedy, Oswald, November 22, 1963, Dallas, Texas
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