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Posted: 1/1/2006 2:49:12 PM EDT
Dealer to be sentenced in gun scam

Franklin man among two who conned collector into overpaying for firearms

Associated Press


The scam broke quietly in 2000, when a wealthy New Hope, Pa., man who paid $2.2 million to acquire a pair of rare Walker Colts discovered that he had been had.

The weapons were worth about half that, authorities said. A lawsuit and criminal investigation followed.


In 2003, a grand jury indicted two nationally respected gun dealers, one of them from Franklin, Tenn., on conspiracy charges. One pleaded guilty; one was convicted and will be sentenced this week, according to yesterday's edition of The Philadelphia Inquirer.

"This prosecution has brought to great light the underbelly of the gun-collecting industry," Assistant U.S. Attorney Robert E. Goldman said in a court filing.

The victim from New Hope is Joseph A. Murphy, a semiretired investor and high-end collector. The gun dealers who conspired to con him are Richard Ellis, 44, of LeClaire, Iowa, and Michael Zomber, 55, of Franklin.

The guns once belonged to the legendary Samuel Walker, the dashing Texas Ranger who, in late 1846, joined with another legend-to-be, Samuel Colt. They developed the world's first Magnum revolver, a six-shot, .44-caliber handgun that launched Colt from obscurity and bankruptcy to fame.

Murphy began to build a serious collection of antique firearms in 1997. He hired Ellis as his expert consultant and agreed to pay a commission on each weapon purchased, 10% up to $1 million and 5% beyond $1 million.

All told, Ellis helped Murphy spend $30 million to create one of the nation's foremost private collections of antique revolvers.

The scheme was simple: Ellis led Murphy to believe that Zomber was a disinterested dealer, a competitor. Zomber wrote letters feigning interest in pieces Murphy sought, driving up the price. In return, Ellis paid Zomber more than $1 million in kickbacks, authorities said.

Murphy realized that Ellis might be inflating sales prices during a gun show in Reston, Va., in 2000, according to trial testimony. At the show, Ellis urged Murphy to buy a set of 1860 Colts. Ellis said they were worth $1 million. When Murphy asked other dealers, they told him the weapons were worth about $350,000.

A few months later, another dealer, Martin Lane, told Murphy that he had overpaid by about $12 million.

Murphy sued Ellis. The civil lawsuit was settled for $4.7 million, payable in antique firearms, according to a court record.

Ellis pleaded guilty to conspiracy to defraud Murphy and will be sentenced next month.

Zomber went to trial. A jury convicted him of conspiracy. At his sentencing, scheduled for Thursday, prosecutors will ask that Zomber serve about three years in prison. Zomber's lawyer, Gerald B. Lefcourt, said his client deserves probation.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 2:55:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Zomber's lawyer, Gerald B. Lefcourt, said his client deserves probation. to be beaten severely with a stick, bankrupted financially, and have his picture published in the newspaper once a week with the headline "Crook!" above it.



That seems more appropriate. I hate theives.

Link Posted: 1/1/2006 2:57:02 PM EDT


Wonder if he'll get any compensation.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 2:57:35 PM EDT
And people claim that money+elitism doesn't talk when it comes to gun collecting (or even class III).
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 3:04:01 PM EDT
All kidding aside, the only people I'd trust in a deal like that (a commission based on how much of my money they spent), other than friends I ve known for years, would be lawyers. A lawyer (in Florida at least) who pulled a stunt like that would be selling pencils on the streetcorner - with a Bar investigator auditing his inventory and taking 25% of his profit for restitution to the victim - well before the cops and the civil courts got him.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 3:13:36 PM EDT

They developed the world's first Magnum revolver, a six-shot, .44-caliber handgun that launched Colt from obscurity and bankruptcy to fame.


I guess the author saw .44 and assumed.

Eddie
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 3:20:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

...Walker, the dashing Texas Ranger...




Abe
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 3:22:05 PM EDT
Gun dealers.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 3:23:37 PM EDT

The civil lawsuit was settled for $4.7 million, payable in antique firearms, according to a court record.


SWEET!

I'd go in his house and be like Hey do you like that one?? He'd be like nope no way, that is crap! Oh Ok then i guess you won't mind if I take then wont you???? Then he'll choke up with tears and be like nope! go ahead it worthless to me anyway.......WAAAAAAH!

HA HA ! SUCKER!
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 3:26:13 PM EDT
How the fuck is it that everyone on this forum knows what my invoice price is on any given firearm but a firearm collector with a million dollar budget doesn't know a fucking thing about gun values?

Instead of hiring a lawyer he should have simply hired a dealer who does firearm appraisals.

Unreal how stupid people can have so much money.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 3:31:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
How the fuck is it that everyone on this forum knows what my invoice price is on any given firearm but a firearm collector with a million dollar budget doesn't know a fucking thing about gun values?




You deal with things that many ppl. know about...How many real Walkers are floating around?...
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 3:35:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LS1Eddie:

They developed the world's first Magnum revolver, a six-shot, .44-caliber handgun that launched Colt from obscurity and bankruptcy to fame.


I guess the author saw .44 and assumed.

Eddie



Actually, that's a pretty common (and accurate) description of the Walker. The cylinder is much, much longer than a standard .44 percussion revolver's, giving the Walker more power than many modern handguns.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 3:43:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Unreal how stupid people can have so much money.



This is the bottom line. 'nuff said.

Link Posted: 1/1/2006 4:39:29 PM EDT

Actually, that's a pretty common (and accurate) description of the Walker. The cylinder is much, much longer than a standard .44 percussion revolver's, giving the Walker more power than many modern handguns.


Too bad it took over 80 years for the term to catch on.

Eddie
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 4:47:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LS1Eddie:

Actually, that's a pretty common (and accurate) description of the Walker. The cylinder is much, much longer than a standard .44 percussion revolver's, giving the Walker more power than many modern handguns.


Too bad it took over 80 years for the term to catch on.

Eddie



Oh, no doubt it's a modern term being applied to an antique. Sam Colt never called it a magnum.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 5:02:20 PM EDT
this is laim bullshit. that pa money bags made a deal with the dude.
SO WHAT. he was willing to PAY it. the guy said its worth ?? million. the guy didnt have to pay it.

stupid asshole with too much money!!!!!

look at ebay.this shit goes on all day long. over priced shit !
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 5:07:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BSOG1:
this is laim bullshit. that pa money bags made a deal with the dude.
SO WHAT. he was willing to PAY it. the guy said its worth ?? million. the guy didnt have to pay it.

stupid asshole with too much money!!!!!

look at ebay.this shit goes on all day long. over priced shit !



What makes it a crime is the deliberate misrepresentation. Having a shill pretend to bid up an item creates a false valuation, just as claiming that brass coins were gold would. If there really is somebody out there trying to buy the guns, the value established by the bids is genuine.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 5:15:35 PM EDT
If you are rich and stupid, and take neither the time nor the interest to check on such expensive firearms yourself, you're a DUMBASS and setting yourself up for a scam. If he was a TRUE firearm collector, and not merely a collector of firearms for investment purposes [guessing here, but I'd bet he is] he would have known the prices being paid for such guns, or at least a ballpark figure. Double the value is just stupid on his part, especially when we are talking in the millions of dollars. Yeah, the scammers deserve to be busted, but the collector is a moron.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 5:32:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 5:34:12 PM EDT by LS1Eddie]

The guns once belonged to the legendary Samuel Walker, the dashing Texas Ranger who, in late 1846, joined with another legend-to-be, Samuel Colt.



If he was a TRUE firearm collector, and not merely a collector of firearms for investment purposes [guessing here, but I'd bet he is] he would have known the prices being paid for such guns, or at least a ballpark figure.


How many such guns do you think Ranger Walker owned? I'd bet none. The value of extremely rare items are determined, in part, by past sales. Previous ownership (by a famous person) can alos add value. Anyone know what they last sold for?

Eddie
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 5:41:37 PM EDT
Sweet Jesus that is a lot of money!
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 5:49:48 PM EDT
I'm no advocate of fraud, but if someone is stupid enough to pay twice what something is worth and not know the difference at the time then I'd say he had it comin'......

Fuck 'em......
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 5:53:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LS1Eddie:

The guns once belonged to the legendary Samuel Walker, the dashing Texas Ranger who, in late 1846, joined with another legend-to-be, Samuel Colt.



If he was a TRUE firearm collector, and not merely a collector of firearms for investment purposes [guessing here, but I'd bet he is] he would have known the prices being paid for such guns, or at least a ballpark figure.


How many such guns do you think Ranger Walker owned? I'd bet none. The value of extremely rare items are determined, in part, by past sales. Previous ownership (by a famous person) can alos add value. Anyone know what they last sold for?

Eddie



I believe Sam Colt presented Ranger Walker with a pair of Walker Colts.

Walker Colts were the most powerful handguns until the .357 Magnum. I used to have a repro Walker, a fun gun to shoot with 50 grains of black powder and a .44 roundball.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 6:09:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BobP:

Originally Posted By LS1Eddie:

The guns once belonged to the legendary Samuel Walker, the dashing Texas Ranger who, in late 1846, joined with another legend-to-be, Samuel Colt.



If he was a TRUE firearm collector, and not merely a collector of firearms for investment purposes [guessing here, but I'd bet he is] he would have known the prices being paid for such guns, or at least a ballpark figure.


How many such guns do you think Ranger Walker owned? I'd bet none. The value of extremely rare items are determined, in part, by past sales. Previous ownership (by a famous person) can alos add value. Anyone know what they last sold for?

Eddie



I believe Sam Colt presented Ranger Walker with a pair of Walker Colts.

Walker Colts were the most powerful handguns until the .357 Magnum. I used to have a repro Walker, a fun gun to shoot with 50 grains of black powder and a .44 roundball.



I misspoke. I meant to ask, "How many other Walker Colts do you think Ranger Walker owned.

Eddie
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 6:15:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
How the fuck is it that everyone on this forum knows what my invoice price is on any given firearm but a firearm collector with a million dollar budget doesn't know a fucking thing about gun values?

Instead of hiring a lawyer he should have simply hired a dealer who does firearm appraisals.

Unreal how stupid people can have so much money.


You're comparing apples and oranges. When you're talking about one of a kind items, there is no set value. It's whatever the bidders are willing to pay. As an example, the Barrett-Jackson auto auction is coming-up in a few weeks. Every year some cars sell for half or less of what they were appraised at and some sell for two or more times that. You just can't look-up the price of it in a catalog like you can a new gun.z
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:20:31 PM EDT
yes
like it was said here. if he was any kind of real gun collector, he should know something
about the values. he is just an investor. today guns, tomorrow ice cream.

whatever makes the coin.
plus if i had that kind of coin. id have the most AWESOME FN FULL AUTO
BELT FED collection. not some laim walker crap.
and 1000 acres to shoot them and not be bothered.

HE HAD IT COMING.........
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:28:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LS1Eddie:

The guns once belonged to the legendary Samuel Walker, the dashing Texas Ranger who, in late 1846, joined with another legend-to-be, Samuel Colt.



If he was a TRUE firearm collector, and not merely a collector of firearms for investment purposes [guessing here, but I'd bet he is] he would have known the prices being paid for such guns, or at least a ballpark figure.


How many such guns do you think Ranger Walker owned? I'd bet none. The value of extremely rare items are determined, in part, by past sales. Previous ownership (by a famous person) can alos add value. Anyone know what they last sold for?

Eddie



For known guns owned by famous people? If sold at auction before you can check pretty damn easy if you want to take the time. Its called provinance, [sic] the ability to prove that the item has a known history. Valuble firearms are followed pretty closely by the true big collector. Increases when they sell are pretty well documented most of the time. And with Colts, there is a lot of "factory" sales and shipping historical info that most other Companies would die for nowadays. Say what you will about Colt but they were one of the very few American gun companies that kept records 100-150 years ago.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:29:21 PM EDT
And people think that Class III dealers 'want' the registry to be re-opened (so they can stop making money on greedy jackasses who want to buy a MG and have it triple in value or have an elitist status symbol) and abandon their status-quo as the big dicks of the gun world.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:34:40 PM EDT


...Walker, the dashing Texas Ranger...




Chuck Norris invented the Colt ?


Link Posted: 1/2/2006 4:11:26 AM EDT

plus if i had that kind of coin. id have the most AWESOME FN FULL AUTO
BELT FED collection. not some laim walker crap.



The "Walker crap" is a piece of lame firearms history.



Increases when they sell are pretty well documented most of the time. And with Colts, there is a lot of "factory" sales and shipping historical info that most other Companies would die for nowadays. Say what you will about Colt but they were one of the very few American gun companies that kept records 100-150 years ago.


So true, whch is why my post included...



The value of extremely rare items are determined, in part, by past sales. Previous ownership (by a famous person) can alos add value. Anyone know what they last sold for?


Zoom, you nailed it.

Eddie

Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:27:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 5:28:08 AM EDT by glklvr]

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Murphy realized that Ellis might be inflating sales prices during a gun show in Reston, Va., in 2000, according to trial testimony. At the show, Ellis urged Murphy to buy a set of 1860 Colts. Ellis said they were worth $1 million. When Murphy asked other dealers, they told him the weapons were worth about $350,000.





Please explain this "gun show" concept where buyers are told something is worth less than what it is being sold for.

Every gun show I've ever been to the guy would've been told the $350,000 guns were worth $2 million.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 6:33:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tostitos:
And people think that Class III dealers 'want' the registry to be re-opened (so they can stop making money on greedy jackasses who want to buy a MG and have it triple in value or have an elitist status symbol) and abandon their status-quo as the big dicks of the gun world.



I WANT the registry to be re opened.

And it doesn't matter that all the NFA stuff I got will tank in value, I would prefer to be able to buy NEW replacements.

And the money in NFA stuff SUCKS. There is NO dealer price on NFA items and there is no secret "dealer supplier" warehouse. The price you find on a M-16 at subguns.com is the SAME PRICE I PAY for a M-16 at subguns.com and I have to go find what I'm looking for just like everyone else. It's kinda hard to charge a markup on something you can buy directly from the current owner.

NFA is expensive, but people make the mistake of thinking those pricing reflect profit margins. The ONLY way to make money on NFA stuff is to be willing to sit on it for about 5-10 years.

If they opened the registery on NFA items most Class III guys would be thrilled as we could finally buy at a dealer price and sell for a profit, we could also just order what we need rather than having to do an extensive investigation for 2 weeks to find what we need in acceptable condition and at a price that is reasonable.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 6:51:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
How the fuck is it that everyone on this forum knows what my invoice price is on any given firearm but a firearm collector with a million dollar budget doesn't know a fucking thing about gun values?

Instead of hiring a lawyer he should have simply hired a dealer who does firearm appraisals.

Unreal how stupid people can have so much money.



+1

Guy had more money than sense.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 12:41:36 PM EDT
Yes it's true that this guy should have done his research more carefully, and ultimately should have found a more trustworthy dealer to work with.

But what bothers me more, is the numerous people on this board who think he deserved to get ripped off because he didn't have the level of knowledge some people think he should have had before spending that kind of money. Comments like "he's not really a gun guy, just a collector" bother me.

He had that kind of money because he's obviously good at something else, but just likes guns as his hobby. Do the jokers on this board who think he deserved to get ripped off think ignorance is a valid reason to steal from someone? Can I legitimately swindle you because you're obviously not that bright outside of the web?
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 12:56:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
How the fuck is it that everyone on this forum knows what my invoice price is on any given firearm but a firearm collector with a million dollar budget doesn't know a fucking thing about gun values?

Instead of hiring a lawyer he should have simply hired a dealer who does firearm appraisals.

Unreal how stupid people can have so much money.



Yeah. And then you get smart folks like me who are as broke as an Irish immigrant in 1864.

Okay, maybe not that broke, but darn close.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 12:57:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 12:59:18 PM EDT by npd233]

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
How the fuck is it that everyone on this forum knows what my invoice price is on any given firearm but a firearm collector with a million dollar budget doesn't know a fucking thing about gun values?

Instead of hiring a lawyer he should have simply hired a dealer who does firearm appraisals.

Unreal how stupid people can have so much money.



I think he did. That's the sad part.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 1:02:03 PM EDT
Like any collectable field, you better know your stuff. There is NOTHING wrong with working with a professional to increase your collection, but you better know enough to prevent being ripped off....same as if an Investment professional called and tried to sell me GM stock, or Enron stock, or WorldCom stock today.


Not to hijack the thread, but how much do you think:

The handgun used to shoot Lincoln would sell for?
The suicide pistol Hitler used?
One of the Three rifles used in the Kennedy assasination?
The Barrett .50 used to shoot down Sputnik?

AFARR
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 1:08:16 PM EDT

If they opened the registery on NFA items most Class III guys would be thrilled as we could finally buy at a dealer price and sell for a profit.


I would tend to agree...a dealer wouln't want to sit on a $10k + M-16 for even a couple of years...he'd rather buy 10 new M-16s from Colt for $1000 and re-sell for $2k each (about what the correct markup on NFA stuff would be...there aren't that many dealers, it has to sit while Form 3 & 4s are approved, etc.).

Hell, SteyrAUG--I'd even go the $2k on the M-16 instead of ordering at wholesale under your FFL and expecting you to transfer it for 7 magic beans....
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 1:40:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 1:40:40 PM EDT by Tostitos]

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
I WANT the registry to be re opened.

And it doesn't matter that all the NFA stuff I got will tank in value, I would prefer to be able to buy NEW replacements.

And the money in NFA stuff SUCKS. There is NO dealer price on NFA items and there is no secret "dealer supplier" warehouse. The price you find on a M-16 at subguns.com is the SAME PRICE I PAY for a M-16 at subguns.com and I have to go find what I'm looking for just like everyone else. It's kinda hard to charge a markup on something you can buy directly from the current owner.

NFA is expensive, but people make the mistake of thinking those pricing reflect profit margins. The ONLY way to make money on NFA stuff is to be willing to sit on it for about 5-10 years.

If they opened the registery on NFA items most Class III guys would be thrilled as we could finally buy at a dealer price and sell for a profit, we could also just order what we need rather than having to do an extensive investigation for 2 weeks to find what we need in acceptable condition and at a price that is reasonable.



No money in NFA stuff? Tell that to the dealers who brag about finding classic transferable MGs in police inventories (thompsons, BARs) and trading them a new G36 or a pair of M16s (non-transferable, naturally) and then listing the transferables for sale. And don't pretend that the 'this is a hobby for us special class of people' attitude doesn't exist, or that the general nut-sucking of Class III types (omg! you got a shrike way before other people who paid more ever will :nutsuck: / omg! you own a FA m16! :nutsuck: :jealous:) doesn't exist. ;)
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 2:08:25 PM EDT
Although I don't really have any problem with people who do own CIII.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 2:27:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tax_monster:
Yes it's true that this guy should have done his research more carefully, and ultimately should have found a more trustworthy dealer to work with.

But what bothers me more, is the numerous people on this board who think he deserved to get ripped off because he didn't have the level of knowledge some people think he should have had before spending that kind of money. Comments like "he's not really a gun guy, just a collector" bother me.

He had that kind of money because he's obviously good at something else, but just likes guns as his hobby. Do the jokers on this board who think he deserved to get ripped off think ignorance is a valid reason to steal from someone? Can I legitimately swindle you because you're obviously not that bright outside of the web?



If I decided today that Persian rugs are neat and I want to collect them but I don't do any kind of research or study and somebody sells me a Wal Mart carpet for $5,000 then that would be MY fault.

When I was yound and decided to start collecting Japanese swords the first thing I did was study them. This is because in addition to outright fakes and forgeries their are many extremely old COPIES of older swords that were made by really good smiths who were trying to see how close to the original blade they could get.

Now obviously if you have a 400 year old sword made by a talented smith that is a COPY of a 600 year old sword it can be difficult to figure out exactly what you are looking at. Especially if there are 50 or so similar copies that were made in the 200 year period AFTER the original.

Because things like this happen in virtually every colelctors market, if you are going to get into it you need to EDUCATE yourself. You also need to hire EXPERTS (and I don't mean lawyers) who can do qualified appraisals and determine what you are actually looking at. Otherwise you can pay 5 times what something is actually worth and it won't be anyone else's fault.

This guy should have gotten an expert appraiser but instead got a lawyer. The lawyer deliberately betrayed a clients interests but that is really all he is guilty of. The guy is to blame for being a dumbass. He's lucky he only got screwed by a lawyer, had it been anyone else they could have really taken him for a ride.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 2:28:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By npd233:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
How the fuck is it that everyone on this forum knows what my invoice price is on any given firearm but a firearm collector with a million dollar budget doesn't know a fucking thing about gun values?

Instead of hiring a lawyer he should have simply hired a dealer who does firearm appraisals.

Unreal how stupid people can have so much money.



I think he did. That's the sad part.



I meant an independent appraiser who was NOT involved in the deals.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 2:30:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AFARR:
Like any collectable field, you better know your stuff. There is NOTHING wrong with working with a professional to increase your collection, but you better know enough to prevent being ripped off....same as if an Investment professional called and tried to sell me GM stock, or Enron stock, or WorldCom stock today.


Not to hijack the thread, but how much do you think:

The handgun used to shoot Lincoln would sell for?
The suicide pistol Hitler used?
One of the Three rifles used in the Kennedy assasination?
The Barrett .50 used to shoot down Sputnik?

AFARR



According to Shotgun News each gun is worth about $125.00 and available from SOG.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 2:35:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tostitos:


No money in NFA stuff? Tell that to the dealers who brag about finding classic transferable MGs in police inventories (thompsons, BARs) and trading them a new G36 or a pair of M16s (non-transferable, naturally) and then listing the transferables for sale. And don't pretend that the 'this is a hobby for us special class of people' attitude doesn't exist, or that the general nut-sucking of Class III types (omg! you got a shrike way before other people who paid more ever will :nutsuck: / omg! you own a FA m16! :nutsuck: :jealous:) doesn't exist. ;)



And how often does that shit happen?

If you call me wanting to buy a specific Thompson I cannot go to my directly of small town PDs with cool NFA toys. I have to look around just like you.

A Class III dealer finding a few Tommies in a TN PD inventory is no different than a guy finding his Grandaddies paperworked MP40 bring back.

Also I paid EXACTLY what everyone else paid for their Shrike and I was literally one of the first on the list, many people ahead of me then later cancelled. As I waited the LONGEST I deserved to be the next in line. Were they suppossed to skip people ahead of me so mine takes longer?

And furthermore I wasn't a SOT, or even a FFL, when I ordered it.

As for ALL of my NFA stuff, they were ALL bought PRIOR to my becoming a FFL or a SOT, so I paid ordinary people prices just like you. If you want a M-16 save up your fucking cash and do without all kinds of shit like I had to do. Don't whine to me.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 2:37:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By Tostitos:


No money in NFA stuff? Tell that to the dealers who brag about finding classic transferable MGs in police inventories (thompsons, BARs) and trading them a new G36 or a pair of M16s (non-transferable, naturally) and then listing the transferables for sale. And don't pretend that the 'this is a hobby for us special class of people' attitude doesn't exist, or that the general nut-sucking of Class III types (omg! you got a shrike way before other people who paid more ever will :nutsuck: / omg! you own a FA m16! :nutsuck: :jealous:) doesn't exist. ;)



And how often does that shit happen?

If you call me wanting to buy a specific Thompson I cannot go to my directly of small town PDs with cool NFA toys. I have to look around just like you.

A Class III dealer finding a few Tommies in a TN PD inventory is no different than a guy finding his Grandaddies paperworked MP40 bring back.

Also I paid EXACTLY what everyone else paid for their Shrike and I was literally one of the first on the list, many people ahead of me then later cancelled. As I waited the LONGEST I deserved to be the next in line. Were they suppossed to skip people ahead of me so mine takes longer?

And furthermore I wasn't a SOT, or even a FFL, when I ordered it.

As for ALL of my NFA stuff, they were ALL bought PRIOR to my becoming a FFL or a SOT, so I paid ordinary people prices just like you. If you want a M-16 save up your fucking cash and do without all kinds of shit like I had to do. Don't whine to me.



No, no. You're supposed to do like all the other CIII owners and diss me for not being able to afford it, so that I can make my witty retort on how I *CAN* afford actually some nice stuff right now except I'm not old enough for transfers, and when I am it'll cost twice as much because of the nuts buying to double their money. Darnit, stick to my script!
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 2:56:24 PM EDT
Did I miss something? I don't see that either of the scammers was lawyer.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 3:08:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tostitos:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
I WANT the registry to be re opened.

And it doesn't matter that all the NFA stuff I got will tank in value, I would prefer to be able to buy NEW replacements.

And the money in NFA stuff SUCKS. There is NO dealer price on NFA items and there is no secret "dealer supplier" warehouse. The price you find on a M-16 at subguns.com is the SAME PRICE I PAY for a M-16 at subguns.com and I have to go find what I'm looking for just like everyone else. It's kinda hard to charge a markup on something you can buy directly from the current owner.

NFA is expensive, but people make the mistake of thinking those pricing reflect profit margins. The ONLY way to make money on NFA stuff is to be willing to sit on it for about 5-10 years.

If they opened the registery on NFA items most Class III guys would be thrilled as we could finally buy at a dealer price and sell for a profit, we could also just order what we need rather than having to do an extensive investigation for 2 weeks to find what we need in acceptable condition and at a price that is reasonable.



No money in NFA stuff? Tell that to the dealers who brag about finding classic transferable MGs in police inventories (thompsons, BARs) and trading them a new G36 or a pair of M16s (non-transferable, naturally) and then listing the transferables for sale. And don't pretend that the 'this is a hobby for us special class of people' attitude doesn't exist, or that the general nut-sucking of Class III types (omg! you got a shrike way before other people who paid more ever will :nutsuck: / omg! you own a FA m16! :nutsuck: :jealous:) doesn't exist. ;)



S-AUG is really the wrong person to try to get an attitude with. So he has some cool shit, GOOD for him, I'd personally love to have a FA class III weapon but my damn state says no. So I have to be content with what I can buy. And S-AUG has been waiting for a Shrike for about as long as I have been on this board I believe. I've never seen him to be anything but a great guy.
I got the chance to shoot a bunch of FAs in November, Thompsons, grease guns, MP5s, 38As, Smith 76s, AKs and the like. I did not even have to pay for the ammo which was about 13K rounds. Why? Cause I try to be halfway decent to people, and sometimes I get rewarded for being nice. If I never have the chance to shoot FA again, my kid and I had a hell of a day that we both will remember fondly.

And while it sucks that the guy got screwed over, he also failed to do a modicum of research which would have warned him. I don't trust my "investment" banker for shit, he's in it to make money for HIMSELF, me making money is secondary. Thats a FACT. I call them "flippin bastards" for a reason, as it seems as if they always want you to flip stocks to make a commission. It tend to cost a good chunk of change unless you do your homework yourself. Thats just life. I might wish it were different but I have to live with whats out there. Cheers!
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 4:59:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
Did I miss something? I don't see that either of the scammers was lawyer.



Holee Crap, how did I read that wrong...?

"He hired Ellis as his expert consultant and agreed to pay a commission on each weapon purchased, 10% up to $1 million and 5% beyond $1 million."

Somehow I read that he hired a lawyer, not a gun dealer who served as an expert. In light of my error in reading I retract everything I said.

This guy DID hire an expert (or so he thought), but he should have gotten independent appraisals from experts who were NOT involved in the deals.

He made an effort to get professional help and got scammed. Fuck those two assholes.

My apologies for my misreadings.

Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:05:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tostitos:


No, no. You're supposed to do like all the other CIII owners and diss me for not being able to afford it, so that I can make my witty retort on how I *CAN* afford actually some nice stuff right now except I'm not old enough for transfers, and when I am it'll cost twice as much because of the nuts buying to double their money. Darnit, stick to my script!



I learned long ago not to make guesses at other peoples spending capacity.

If you saw my car you wouldn't believe for a second that I have NFA shit. I drive a 1990 Dodge Omni. It is a fucking piece of crap but it keeps me from having a $500 a month car payment which allows me to buy NFA shit.

I make a lot of similar sacrifices. NFA registry is closed and prices will only continue to go up so I decided over 10 years ago to start buying NFA toys then and fuck everything else.

I'll get a nice car later when I give a fuck about that kinda shit.

And I'd strongly recommend you do the same as soon as you are of buying age. This stuff won't be getting cheaper anytime soon. Do what I did and drive a fucking bucket for a car. Then put what would be a car payment aside for a year and buy a new NFA toy.

If you are lucky and can still live at home for a year or two after you turn 21 buy all the NFA shit you can. Put all of your income into it while you aren't paying rent. I know a lot of guys who did that for a couple years and got some nice pieces. Wish I could have.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:09:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By Tostitos:


No, no. You're supposed to do like all the other CIII owners and diss me for not being able to afford it, so that I can make my witty retort on how I *CAN* afford actually some nice stuff right now except I'm not old enough for transfers, and when I am it'll cost twice as much because of the nuts buying to double their money. Darnit, stick to my script!



I learned long ago not to make guesses at other peoples spending capacity.

If you saw my car you wouldn't believe for a second that I have NFA shit. I drive a 1990 Dodge Omni. It is a fucking piece of crap but it keeps me from having a $500 a month car payment which allows me to buy NFA shit.

I make a lot of similar sacrifices. NFA registry is closed and prices will only continue to go up so I decided over 10 years ago to start buying NFA toys then and fuck everything else.

I'll get a nice car later when I give a fuck about that kinda shit.

And I'd strongly recommend you do the same as soon as you are of buying age. This stuff won't be getting cheaper anytime soon. Do what I did and drive a fucking bucket for a car. Then put what would be a car payment aside for a year and buy a new NFA toy.

If you are lucky and can still live at home for a year or two after you turn 21 buy all the NFA shit you can. Put all of your income into it while you aren't paying rent. I know a lot of guys who did that for a couple years and got some nice pieces. Wish I could have.



My name is the name on the utility bill.. along with quite a few other things, so I can probably live here as long as I like.

There's a reason I drive a battered '88 trooper, and it isn't that the chicks dig it. No 20k car, no mortgage payments, I can channel 100% of my backup cash into my startup. Since you'd know, maybe you can tell me the legality of "buying" a NFA item without having transferred to me until I'm 21?
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:15:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 5:18:31 PM EDT by SteyrAUG]

Originally Posted By Tostitos:


My name is the name on the utility bill.. along with quite a few other things, so I can probably live here as long as I like.

There's a reason I drive a battered '88 trooper, and it isn't that the chicks dig it. No 20k car, no mortgage payments, I can channel 100% of my backup cash into my startup. Since you'd know, maybe you can tell me the legality of "buying" a NFA item without having transferred to me until I'm 21?



Two ways you can attack this.

You can have someone (like you parents) buy it now ($200 tax) and then sell it to you when you turn 21 (another $200 tax). You will pay the tax twice but it still might prove cheaper than waiting to buy when you are 21.

If your family has a corp. (many small family businesses do) the corp. can buy it and they can put your name on the corp. making it legal for you to possess once you turn 21. Keep in mind it will still be the property of the corp. and if you ever want to transfer it to you as an individual you will have to pay another $200 transfer tax.

There really isn't a way to "buy" something and have it transferred to you at a later date. Pretty much you'd just be putting down 100% deposit and trusting the dealer to keep it for you until you are 21. Most I know won't do it, and the dealers who would probably shouldn't be trusted.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:18:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 5:18:36 PM EDT by Tostitos]
Hmm. Maybe my corp could buy one while it sits in a locked box somewhere else for a year?

I don't have parents.
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