Some pics to give anyone pause.......WARNING, VERY GRAPHIC. - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Some pics to give anyone pause.......WARNING, VERY GRAPHIC. (Page 2 of 5)

Posted: 12/29/2005 9:19:20 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
[
Quoted:
Sometimes, when mommy and daddy are JBTs, they are going to burn little girls and boys....

Actually, that is also true, as the Nazis and other malcontents have shown. Shit happens a lot, but we are nowhere near having state-sanctioned deathsquad cops running around.

I never claimed that we do. We have one of those rare moments of agreement here, Tomislav. I merely argue that, in the case of the FBI at Waco, we had an element of that. Remember, HRT are NOT cops. They are military under FBI cover. Their training and mission is equal to Delta Force, with whom they co-train at Quantico. The only distinction is that HRT is utilized domestically whereas Delta can't be due to Posse Comitatus. Unless, of course, there is a Presidential Executive Waiver, as there almost certainly was for Waco, because Delta was neck deep in the action.

Posted: 12/29/2005 9:22:01 PM EDT

[#2]

Add one part religious extremism to two parts government abuse of power.

Shake well.

Posted: 12/29/2005 9:24:23 PM EDT

[#3]

Looks like that website is run by a bunch of nutjobs.

Posted: 12/29/2005 9:33:52 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
I'm not happy at all about what the government (particularly Janet Reno and Bill Clinton) did at Waco, there is no denying the fact that David Koresh was an Grade A screw ball and a dangerous one at that. He bears some of the responsibility for those photographs as well. But I can comfort myself with the knowledge that he is roasting in hell for his part.

You know, we are pretty much on the same side of the debate here, but I do get a little sick and tired of people demonizing David Koresh and blaming him. Until you have studied the negotiations and the conduct of the FBI over the 51 days seige, you do not know to what great lengths David Koresh went to to get everyone out of threr alive. People think he could have just "come out", but nothing could be further from the truth. I have addressed this to some degree on the other thread and can't repeat it all here.

For those who have not seen that thread, here is my recommendation. Go to this site and read all the documents linked there. Some of the audio and video links don't seem to work anymore, but I have all those files for anyone who wants them. Read this thoroughly, and then go get the authors book. It is the definitive account. I am not holding my breath for Tomislav to read it though. I gave him the Danforth Report because I have the material to rip it apart. He thinks he has scored now, but he should be smart enough to realize that I wouldn't give him something like that without a good reason. In sales, one never asks a question of someone unless one knows the answer. If he takes the next bait, I'll close the sale.

Posted: 12/29/2005 9:40:04 PM EDT

[#5]

The .gov shouldn't be in the business of erradicating screwballs!

I don't know what particular bent you are, but I happen to not be religious, so everybody who is religious is a little screwy to some people! The .gov sholdn't be using religious affiliations when deciding who to incinerate....

Hope it's not your family next time.

Posted: 12/29/2005 9:43:02 PM EDT

[#6]

Although authority worshipping ATF/JBT supporters hysterically claim Koresh's Christian cult-like activities as justification for the assault, it's actually fundamentalist government liberals and antigun socialists that burn people alive, as this group has unfortunately discovered.

Posted: 12/29/2005 9:47:06 PM EDT

[#7]

Koresh should have been executed for what he did to those kids, the agents who ordered the fire started should be executed. Janet Reno should be tried for EVERY person murdered at that fire and if found guilty should be be executed. Every innocent Branch Davidian should be pardoned, every innocent dead BD should be honored for losing his or her life due to a terrorist act committed by the ATF and certain agents of the FBI.

Posted: 12/29/2005 9:48:37 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Sometimes, when mommy and daddy are doomsday cultists, shit happens.

People like you made Adolf Hitler possible and every other dictator this world has seen. Pretty fuckin sad.

Posted: 12/29/2005 9:48:40 PM EDT

[#9]

The reason those kids are so badly broken is because of the cyanide.

Posted: 12/29/2005 9:52:59 PM EDT

[#10]

I don’t think they were any weirder than Jehovah's witnesses.

Living in a compound with a group of like minded people seems to be an ideal SHTF plan around here.

Posted: 12/30/2005 1:51:09 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
To cap it off....on top of the building and the dead bodies you see in those pics, they hoisted the ATF flag on the smoldering ruins. Very proud they were.

That would be odd, since ATF was gone by then -- the tank assault was all FBI, from what I recall.

Posted: 12/30/2005 2:01:29 AM EDT

[#12]

Yawn

Posted: 12/30/2005 2:13:51 AM EDT

[#13]

Don't build your military/religious compound out of fucking plywood and hay and alot of this shit could have been prevented.

Posted: 12/30/2005 2:21:22 AM EDT

[#14]

Hmm, a lot of sympathy for a a child molestor. Poor execution and planning but I cannot have any remorse for old DK.

Posted: 12/30/2005 2:27:52 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Koresh should have been executed for what he did to those kids, the agents who ordered the fire started should be executed. Janet Reno should be tried for EVERY person murdered at that fire and if found guilty should be be executed. Every innocent Branch Davidian should be pardoned, every innocent dead BD should be honored for losing his or her life due to a terrorist act committed by the ATF and certain agents of the FBI.

Koresh should have been executed for what? I personally can't claim to know what he did or did not do, but I do know that I haven't seen any incontrovertible evidence of evil deeds at the hands of Koresh. Weirdo or not, what were his crimes that merited either execution or the government actions in question?

Posted: 12/30/2005 2:40:13 AM EDT

[#16]

christianity was a religous cult once,, think about it!!!

IMHO,, the Gov fucked up a simple arrest. But they wanted to make an example plain and simple.
Funny,, in a few years span we have two major shootouts with feds,,, feds stroming a south fla home for a kid, and a bunch of BS pass thru gov. BUT hey its all good,, its fo r the good of the ppl right? juts dont look up,,or question what your told to do and everything will be alright....

Posted: 12/30/2005 3:12:19 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Quoted:
In before the religious wacko defenders.

Yes Koresh was a wacko, but last I checked this is supposed to be a free country.

Maybe you'd better check again!

Posted: 12/30/2005 3:18:59 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
I don't know that the ENTIRE ATF was involved, most likely just the leadership people and agents from that area. And perhaps there are guys like us working there, trying to change them from the inside. Ya know? Never mind, you probably don't.......

The ATF "imported" agents from quite distant areas.

And perhaps there are guys like us working there, trying to change them from the inside.

I doubt it!........that's the "line" we keep hearing............I have yet to see any evidence of it......but the "line" continues.

Having seen LE corruption face to face........I believe they actually enjoy it!!

Posted: 12/30/2005 3:19:18 AM EDT

[#19]

I remember a time when the citizens were sovereign in this country.

What will it take to make that so again?

Posted: 12/30/2005 3:20:38 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
I was too young then to pay attention to the news.

What was the Governments motives behind this event?

You REALLY need to watch the documentary: "WACO: The Rules of Engagement"

Posted: 12/30/2005 3:27:16 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Sometimes, when mommy and daddy are ~~doomsday cultists~~ Gov Employees, shit happens.

Refer To OKC, Daycare

It is merely a flip of the coin for some people here to think on

Now THAT'S a great "turn of phrase".!!!

USGI_45: Welcome to the Vast Right Wing of ARFCOM!!!

Now you have pissed off all of the LEO apologists..........

You see, WACO was good because "bad people" died and the event was inevitable because of anti-government extremists.

OKC was bad because "good people" died and the event was inevitable because of anti-government extremists.

See the difference?

Posted: 12/30/2005 3:30:56 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Quoted:
And mommy and daddy dont have a right to be doomsday cultist in the US?

I never said that they do not. But like Waco, Heaven's Gate, and Jonestown demonstrate, shit indeed does sometimes happen with those folks. Not a damned thing that can be realistically done about it.

Not a damned thing huh?............at WACO maybe the ATF could have called off the "Media Raid"?,,,,,,NAH!, why spoil the fun!.......LET'S ROCK! and kick some civilian ass for the cameras so we can look good for Congress!!
TOMISLAV: If you're a "public servant"......the public is in deep shit!

Posted: 12/30/2005 3:36:34 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
I remember a time when the citizens were sovereign in this country.

What will it take to make that so again?

Posted: 12/30/2005 6:04:24 AM EDT

[#24]

I thought this was an appropriate addition to this thread in reference to the HRT Trophy pictures posted in a sister thread about WACO.

Posted: 12/30/2005 6:13:35 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Looks like that website is run by a bunch of nutjobs.

Looks like you don't like to see ugly consequences.

Posted: 12/30/2005 6:14:45 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Sometimes, when mommy and daddy are ~~doomsday cultists~~ Gov Employees, shit happens.

Refer To OKC, Daycare

It is merely a flip of the coin for some people here to think on

Now THAT'S a great "turn of phrase".!!!

USGI_45: Welcome to the Vast Right Wing of ARFCOM!!!

Now you have pissed off all of the LEO apologists..........

You see, WACO was good because "bad people" died and the event was inevitable because of anti-government extremists.

OKC was bad because "good people" died and the event was inevitable because of anti-government extremists.

See the difference?

Reposted for all it's clarity.

Posted: 12/30/2005 6:18:20 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Real Americans dont work for the BATFE.

Very profound words!!

Posted: 12/30/2005 6:19:29 AM EDT

[#28]

they were executed, and the ones who fired first were the ATF.

Any one of us could be next IMHO.

Posted: 12/30/2005 6:26:11 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Looks like that website is run by a bunch of nutjobs.

Looks like you don't like to see ugly consequences.

Absolut just doesn't like the fact that the "nutjobs" fight back!

Posted: 12/30/2005 6:54:02 AM EDT

[#30]

Hey I thought someone said this thread was locked?

IBTLAgain

Posted: 12/30/2005 7:07:51 AM EDT

[#31]

Posted: 12/30/2005 7:24:09 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm not happy at all about what the government (particularly Janet Reno and Bill Clinton) did at Waco, there is no denying the fact that David Koresh was an Grade A screw ball and a dangerous one at that. He bears some of the responsibility for those photographs as well. But I can comfort myself with the knowledge that he is roasting in hell for his part.

You know, we are pretty much on the same side of the debate here, but I do get a little sick and tired of people demonizing David Koresh and blaming him. Until you have studied the negotiations and the conduct of the FBI over the 51 days seige, you do not know to what great lengths David Koresh went to to get everyone out of threr alive. People think he could have just "come out", but nothing could be further from the truth. I have addressed this to some degree on the other thread and can't repeat it all here.

For those who have not seen that thread, here is my recommendation. Go to this site and read all the documents linked there. Some of the audio and video links don't seem to work anymore, but I have all those files for anyone who wants them. Read this thoroughly, and then go get the authors book. It is the definitive account. I am not holding my breath for Tomislav to read it though. I gave him the Danforth Report because I have the material to rip it apart. He thinks he has scored now, but he should be smart enough to realize that I wouldn't give him something like that without a good reason. In sales, one never asks a question of someone unless one knows the answer. If he takes the next bait, I'll close the sale.

My take on this whole debacle is that the ATF did fuck up with their grandstanding raid, and I was disturbed as the siege dragged on when Federal LE came up with drug selling, and child molesting inside the compound as furthur justification for the raid. The Feds cited state crimes that they had no jurisdiction to enforce.
I'm also disturbed that the Federal government, knowing there were children inside that compound, started tossing around that gas which led to the inferno.
OTOH, Koresh was no hero either. Koresh could have sent every child out of that compound under order, and they'd have left.
Koresh IMHO kept some of those kids in there as hostages, and allowed them to die with him.
I'm not apologizing for the ATF, the FBI or the "JBT's" but I also refuse to confer sainthood on Davey.

Posted: 12/30/2005 7:55:02 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Hey I thought someone said this thread was locked?

IBTLAgain

Nobody should say anything that would get this one locked!

Eric The(KeepingFingersCrossed)Hun

Posted: 12/30/2005 8:00:13 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Hey I thought someone said this thread was locked?

IBTLAgain

Nobody should say anything that would get this one locked!

I understand........but I believe there is a distinct bias and it's not in our favor.

Posted: 12/30/2005 8:07:51 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
Quoted:
To cap it off....on top of the building and the dead bodies you see in those pics, they hoisted the ATF flag on the smoldering ruins. Very proud they were.

That would be odd, since ATF was gone by then -- the tank assault was all FBI, from what I recall.

Posted: 12/30/2005 8:08:37 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
Hmm, a lot of sympathy for a a child molestor. Poor execution and planning but I cannot have any remorse for old DK.

The Texas Child Protection Agency had been in there several times looking at abuse allegations, and found none. Try again.

Posted: 12/30/2005 8:09:10 AM EDT

[#37]

ibtl

Posted: 12/30/2005 8:10:57 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

The important thing is those burnt up little girls aren't being molested by a religious wack job anymore.

Yay government.

Nice spin job, oh respected one.

The real point is that they were being ordered out for DAYS, and the "leaders" chose to ignore the orders.

Even if we were to assume that the JBTs were wrong, dead wrong, for what they did up until the point at which the compound was gassed, how the hell could they just walk away when rounds had flown at them from inside the compound?

Is that what we are really saying here? Just walk away?

Wow.

Posted: 12/30/2005 8:14:32 AM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
I'm not happy at all about what the government (particularly Janet Reno and Bill Clinton) did at Waco, there is no denying the fact that David Koresh was an Grade A screw ball and a dangerous one at that. He bears some of the responsibility for those photographs as well. But I can comfort myself with the knowledge that he is roasting in hell for his part.

Call me curious - what threat did he pose to public safety?

Posted: 12/30/2005 8:16:10 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
Quoted:

The important thing is those burnt up little girls aren't being molested by a religious wack job anymore.

Yay government.

Nice spin job, oh respected one.

The real point is that they were being ordered out for DAYS, and the "leaders" chose to ignore the orders.

Even if we were to assume that the JBTs were wrong, dead wrong, for what they did up until the point at which the compound was gassed, how the hell could they just walk away when rounds had flown at them from inside the compound?

Is that what we are really saying here? Just walk away?

Wow.

No one said "walk away." No one.

Are you saying that they needed to do what they did with military tanks?

Posted: 12/30/2005 8:19:19 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:

Even if we were to assume that the JBTs were wrong, dead wrong, for what they did up until the point at which the compound was gassed, how the hell could they just walk away when rounds had flown at them from inside the compound?

'Cause they lied. And lied. And lied.

Continuously and brazenly.

Frankly, I don't believe a G-D word that the ATF/FBI/HRT folks say about what happened.

'No, honey, no one's coming to kill you.' ~ FBI 'negotiator' Jim Cavanaugh to unknown child

'This is NOT an assault'! Repeat, this is NOT an assault!' The FBI loudspeakers blared

Guess what?

They all lied!

So I, for one, don't believe that the Davidians 'fired a single shot' on April 19, 1993.

Is that what we are really saying here? Just walk away?

I know the names of 4 ATF agents who wished they could have just walked away from Mount Carmel.

Eric The(ForWhatThat'sWorth)Hun

Posted: 12/30/2005 8:21:10 AM EDT

[#42]

Eventually the truth will win out.

Posted: 12/30/2005 8:22:46 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
Quoted:
The important thing is those burnt up little girls aren't being molested by a religious wack job anymore.

Yay government.

Nice spin job, oh respected one.

The real point is that they were being ordered out for DAYS, and the "leaders" chose to ignore the orders.

It's easy to ignore an order that you know will put a bullet in your noggin.

Even if we were to assume that the JBTs were wrong, dead wrong, for what they did up until the point at which the compound was gassed, how the hell could they just walk away when rounds had flown at them from inside the compound?

Is that what we are really saying here? Just walk away?

No.

Posted: 12/30/2005 8:28:55 AM EDT

[#44]

Then what are we saying?

We can all agree that they needed to be taken out of the compund at some point and let the system work out the details, right?

Is it the timing?

Is it the gas?

What?

Posted: 12/30/2005 8:40:19 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
Then what are we saying?

We can all agree that they needed to be taken out of the compund at some point and let the system work out the details, right?

Is it the timing?

Is it the gas?

What?

Well, first off, it would be a nice gesture if the FBI and all it's minions didn't shoot at those individuals who attempted to leave the compound.

Posted: 12/30/2005 8:43:20 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

It's easy to ignore an order that you know will put a bullet in your noggin.

They could easily have seen the TV cameras from the compund. They knew it was national news. They had tentatively accepted offers to allow some of the people (women and children) out early on.

No, I don't buy the conspiracy angle here. There was ample opportunity for the kooky religious leadership to let these poor, brainwashed youngsters out.

Koresh chose to pretend to the last that he was a messiah. His people bought into it, and that cost lives.

I've seen LE training video of the incident - FBI guys, grown men crying because it went sideways. Those damn JBTs.

Posted: 12/30/2005 8:46:24 AM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
Then what are we saying?

We can all agree that they needed to be taken out of the compund at some point and let the system work out the details, right?

Is it the timing?

Is it the gas?

What?

The cops just needed to go home.

Citizens have the right to defend themselves from an unjustified attack by anyone, even cops.

The whole event was orchestrated by the Feds in the expectation that the religious crazies would provide a big media event. They did.

It was one of the most shameful events in American history and it revealed a gap between law enforcement and citizens that has never healed. Conservative Americans used to love the police, now in part of their mind they fear them.

Posted: 12/30/2005 8:47:47 AM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
Quoted:

It's easy to ignore an order that you know will put a bullet in your noggin.

They could easily have seen the TV cameras from the compund. They knew it was national news. They had tentatively accepted offers to allow some of the people (women and children) out early on.

No, I don't buy the conspiracy angle here. There was ample opportunity for the kooky religious leadership to let these poor, brainwashed youngsters out.

Koresh chose to pretend to the last that he was a messiah. His people bought into it, and that cost lives.

I've seen LE training video of the incident - FBI guys, grown men crying because it went sideways. Those damn JBTs.

What was the compelling need to force their hand on day 51? Why not just wait them out? Food and water would run out eventually.

Posted: 12/30/2005 8:47:49 AM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
Quoted:
To cap it off....on top of the building and the dead bodies you see in those pics, they hoisted the ATF flag on the smoldering ruins. Very proud they were.

That would be odd, since ATF was gone by then -- the tank assault was all FBI, from what I recall.

FBI was running the show but ATF raised the flag.

Posted: 12/30/2005 8:48:59 AM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:

Well, first off, it would be a nice gesture if the FBI and all it's minions didn't shoot at those individuals who attempted to leave the compound.

I don't buy it. Yes, I've seen the controversial aerial video tape. "Experts" on both sides can't agree on what it shows.

I don't know if you've ever dealt with FBI investigators. If there had been a whisper of real evidence that agents shot at people fleeing the fire, they would have crucified them.

Believe it; they are that way.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Some pics to give anyone pause.......WARNING, VERY GRAPHIC. (Page 2 of 5)

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