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Posted: 12/29/2005 1:06:19 PM EDT
Now just to make the conversation interesting . . .

Somewhere between 10 PM and 5 AM you hear the door being smashed in. Being the alert, responsible person you are, you tell your wife to dial 911 on the cell phone while you un-ass your handy flashlight and 1911/Glock/870/AR. You hear yelling but the adrenaline has made you partially deaf and all you see are armed black figures coming down the hallway. Fearing for your life and that of your family's, you ventilate 3 or more before they decide they need to regroup. After the smoke has cleared, you have 3 dead LEOs in full raid gear piled up on your carpet and your house is, of course, now surrounded.
Now what?
I would assume the 911 operator would be going nuts trying to explain that they ARE the police. The cops outside now want blood and you can bet they are taking you somewhere dark as soon as they can, preferably before you call a lawyer and the news cameras arrive. Negotiator finally shows up and explains - "oops, no knock warrant on the wrong house".

Obviously this happens more often than is spoken of because the settlement with the family usually forces a 'none disclosure' agreement. I'm just curious as to what happens when the local PD has to admit it screwed up and basically condemned their comrads to a death sentence by sending them into a house occupied by a likely hard working, God-fearing, gun owning family man with no warning.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:09:46 PM EDT
Let me go get my popcorn, don't start yet!!!
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:12:07 PM EDT
I hope they replace my door and carpet.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:12:07 PM EDT
IBTPASU!b
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:12:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:13:18 PM EDT
This would be the EOTWAYKI (You vice We) as guilty or innocent it's going to cost you your lives savings to defend yourself against the government's tax payer paid for lawyers and forensic specialist.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:14:06 PM EDT
"hey guys, uhh I think we messed this one up, can we try it again?"
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:14:53 PM EDT
Well, I'd start by yelling "don't shoot there are children in here!" and I'd also call my LEO friends.

It's awful scenarios like this that make no-knock raids really questionable from a constitutional perspective; it all hinges on airtight intelligence. And yet in virtually every case, they could just as easily observe the home for a bit longer than 4 minutes, check the address, re-check the warrant, maybe call the neighbor's home 'by accident' just to confirm an address.

Heck, why not show up in a UPS truck to deliver a package? A very large package that needs to be rolled in?

I understand the need for tactical surprise, for taking down bad guys in the act of a crime, etc etc. but if you know they're there, why not nail them as they exit the door or neighborhood? THEN go back to search the empty home?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:14:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cwickgo9:
After the smoke has cleared, you have 3 dead LEOs in full raid gear piled up on your carpet and your house is, of course, now surrounded.
Now what?
.



I'd tell them "...and if you call me one more time about giving $$$$ to the Fraternal Order of Police" or the Police Athletic League" I'll cap the rest of ya."



Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:18:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:
Let me go get my popcorn, don't start yet!!!



Agreed. This should be a good one.

This is an awfully extreme situation, but the interesting ones always are.

The rarity of something like this happening is exagerated by the fact that most people (including those with their favorite .45 tucked under thier pillow), would simply just shit their pants when they saw those armed black figures coming down the hallway, all tactical and shit.

Let's see ....... popcorn ......... pen and paper (taking notes, ya see) .......beer.

ready.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:19:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 1:25:28 PM EDT by Hellhound]
I would make contact with the negotiator and ask for pizza and some Cokes until they get things straightened out and apologize to me.

ETA: Did they shoot my dog?? If they did, IT'S ON!!

Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:23:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 1:24:15 PM EDT by USGI_45]
Kill as many more as possible, light the house on Fire, Shoot Myself in the head


ETA I would try to get on TV first, so I could watch it on breaking news
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:24:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hellhound:
I would make contact with the negotiator and ask for pizza and some Cokes until they get things straightened out and apologize to me.



The dead JBTs would arise and eat your pizza and leave you with 3 empty boxes.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:26:34 PM EDT
This scenario is highly unlikely due to the fact that no dogs were killed in the process.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:28:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 1:31:01 PM EDT by Bama-Shooter]
Here we go again.

The flashbangs and cs gas shot through the windows. Entries are no made through the windows and backdoor. Everyone inside is shot. Retrieve the shot cops. Gasoline spread through out and one more flashbang to get the fire going.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:30:06 PM EDT
Start yelling stuff about this being the revenge for David Koresh and pop off a few more rounds out the window.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:31:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Here we go again.



Yep.

Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:31:25 PM EDT
Just tell them your an illegal, they'll let you play with the siren and lights on the cruiser.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:31:35 PM EDT
Am I the only one that sees something wrong with a regular Joe taking out 3 cops as easilly as if they were mentally unstable crack-heads?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:31:39 PM EDT
I've got a dog. I used to think that her job was to alert me to intruders. But her REAL job is to distract the LEO's long enough (while they fall-all-over themselves trying to shoot the dog) for me to get my .308 from the safe and defeat their kevlar. After the smoke clears, Attorney General Gonzalez makes a call to Janet Reno and asks her for the proper contacts to mobilize the para-military LE personnel and run a tank through my house. Life is so simple when you have a plan for everything...
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:33:12 PM EDT
My guess is that if/when a "no-knock" issued, and you come marching down the hall with your firearm brandished, you'll be getting ventilated before you get a chance to shoot first.

" it was coming right at me!"
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:45:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zakk_Wylde_470:
Am I the only one that sees something wrong with a regular Joe taking out 3 cops as easilly as if they were mentally unstable crack-heads?



That's what I was thinking. I think I'd get wacked.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:47:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zakk_Wylde_470:
Am I the only one that sees something wrong with a regular Joe taking out 3 cops as easilly as if they were mentally unstable crack-heads?



Training, training, training.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:50:29 PM EDT
CLAYMORE CLAYMORE CLAYMORE!! BOOM!

Situation resolved.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 2:15:51 PM EDT
Something like that happens... I'd feel pretty damn bad... I'd be exonerated in their death, because it was someone else's mistake, and I was defending myself, but that would be three dead cops because of a mistake.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 2:21:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Matthew_Q:
Something like that happens... I'd feel pretty damn bad... I'd be exonerated in their death, because it was someone else's mistake, and I was defending myself, but that would be three dead cops because of a mistake.




Wow... I'm not sure which is the bigger fantasy... thinking you could single-handedly beat 3 cops in a firefight, or thinking you'd be exonerated afterwards? I'm going to go with thinking you could outshoot them. A well-trained tactical type MIGHT be able to best three desk-jockeys, but there's NO way you're going to get away with defending yourself against cops... even if if was all their own fault. Reality just doesn't work that way. They'll find SOMETHING to pin on you in that case...
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 2:30:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cwickgo9:
Somewhere between 10 PM and 5 AM you hear the door being smashed in. Being the alert, responsible person you are, you tell your wife to dial 911 on the cell phone while you un-ass your handy flashlight and 1911/Glock/870/AR. You hear yelling but the adrenaline has made you partially deaf and all you see are armed black figures coming down the hallway. Fearing for your life and that of your family's, you ventilate 3 or more before they decide they need to regroup. After the smoke has cleared, you have 3 dead LEOs in full raid gear piled up on your carpet and your house is, of course, now surrounded.



Guess you should have trained more often so the auditory exclusion and condition black didn't kick in and affect you so badly.


Now what?


Since your interior gunfire has probably deafend you, I suggest you have your wife relay to the operator that you realize the mistake made, that you are going to put your weapon down and are coming out of the house with your hands on your head when the officers outside relay to the 911 person that they are ready to take you into custody. And contacting the lawyer would be a good idea.


Obviously this happens more often than is spoken of because the settlement with the family usually forces a 'none disclosure' agreement. I'm just curious as to what happens when the local PD has to admit it screwed up and basically condemned their comrads to a death sentence by sending them into a house occupied by a likely hard working, God-fearing, gun owning family man with no warning.


No,it doesn't happen that often at all. Read the Oficers Down Memorial Page and go back 20 years...


http://www.odmp.org/


How many officers do YOU see listed as dying in the manner you describe?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 2:39:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sslocal:

Originally Posted By Zakk_Wylde_470:
Am I the only one that sees something wrong with a regular Joe taking out 3 cops as easilly as if they were mentally unstable crack-heads?



Training, training, training.



Actually, it's not quite the same as a firefight in the open, where officers with experience in the simulation course would have an advantage, and you're essentially correct. Inside a home, as in "coming down the hall" you'd have a very narrow field of fire. Were I shooting down a hallway with 7.62x51, I can see three going down quite easily, vests and all. The battlefield is small, in this particular case.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 3:40:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rjroberts:

Originally Posted By sslocal:

Originally Posted By Zakk_Wylde_470:
Am I the only one that sees something wrong with a regular Joe taking out 3 cops as easilly as if they were mentally unstable crack-heads?



Training, training, training.



Actually, it's not quite the same as a firefight in the open, where officers with experience in the simulation course would have an advantage, and you're essentially correct. Inside a home, as in "coming down the hall" you'd have a very narrow field of fire. Were I shooting down a hallway with 7.62x51, I can see three going down quite easily, vests and all. The battlefield is small, in this particular case.



This is what I was thinking in the tactical scenario I described. I may get hammered too, but in a hallway where at best, two could come to bear, a high vel round of correct composition and cross-sectional density could do it. Hell, a .308 or steel core .223 could do the trick. And I agree, training training training would be the ONLY way a citizen could possibly survive the encounter. I was just curious as to what the arfcomers would think would be the outcome. I do believe it would be a matter of "somebody's goin' to jail" - IF they let you make it there. But again, its the citizen that pays for the error the state made in money, dignity, honor, reputation, etc. when he comes out with his hands up and the onslaught of cameras put him on every station while a crowd of LEO's crowd around him, throw him to the ground and cuff him. Not to mention, removing every firearm and related item from the house which may or may not make it back to him AFTER he gets released after serving time for whatever charges they most assuredly will bring.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 3:41:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 3:43:35 PM EDT by cwickgo9]

woops = too fast on the clicker
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 3:47:57 PM EDT
IBTL

Just offer them some Krispy Kremes.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 3:51:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 3:52:23 PM EDT by cluster]

Originally Posted By cwickgo9:
woops = too fast on the clicker



if you hesatate for a sec they will take YOU out since you are armed..
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 3:52:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Matthew_Q:
Something like that happens... I'd feel pretty damn bad... I'd be exonerated in their death, because it was someone else's mistake, and I was defending myself, but that would be three dead cops because of a mistake.



It wouldn't be a good feeling........AT ALL
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 5:17:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DS11M:

Originally Posted By Matthew_Q:
Something like that happens... I'd feel pretty damn bad... I'd be exonerated in their death, because it was someone else's mistake, and I was defending myself, but that would be three dead cops because of a mistake.



It wouldn't be a good feeling........AT ALL



nope - I get the feeling a fair amount of kneeling before the porcelain god might occur when the lights go on and the bodies are identified. Not to mention, even if a mistake is made, there are three dead men that probably have families they will never see again. But, on the other hand, ironically from a LEO's conversation with me regarding gunfights, "I look at it not that they're (they = person shooting at him) trying to take me away from my family, but that they are taking my family away from me".
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 6:48:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2005 6:48:51 AM EDT by Dance]

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Now what?

Since your interior gunfire has probably deafend you, I suggest you have your wife relay to the operator that you realize the mistake made, that you are going to put your weapon down and are coming out of the house with your hands on your head when the officers outside relay to the 911 person that they are ready to take you into custody. And contacting the lawyer would be a good idea.





Contact lawyer first, and make no mention of you making a mistake as it was the police who made a mistake.

Link Posted: 12/30/2005 7:10:08 AM EDT

Just offer them some Krispy Kremes.



That's what attracted them to your house in the first place.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 7:18:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dance:

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Now what?

Since your interior gunfire has probably deafend you, I suggest you have your wife relay to the operator that you realize the mistake made, that you are going to put your weapon down and are coming out of the house with your hands on your head when the officers outside relay to the 911 person that they are ready to take you into custody. And contacting the lawyer would be a good idea.





Contact lawyer first, and make no mention of you making a mistake as it was the police who made a mistake.




My intention was that the home owner realizes THE POLICE had made a mistake. And when he is now no longer having to repel borders and able to take stock of what has just occured, he would have to realize an error had occured somewhere. I would think that if a citizen committed a crime worthy of being apprehended in this fashion, he would not be surprised - although he may resist in a similar fashion. However, your average, gun-loving, trained citizen found in the same circumstances with this outcome would have to believe a horrible mistake occured outside of his control to bring this action to his home. And I totally agree, the term "feared for my and my family's life" should come before any thought of saying "I made a mistake."
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 7:22:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2005 7:25:02 AM EDT by NoVaGator]
coupla things....I don't think no-knocks-gone- wrong are all that common and I don't think a governmental agency can have a NDA in a settlement in most states.

2nd - I don't think it's completely unrealistic to think that one well-armed person could kill three LEOs in this scenario. It really depends on the layout of the house. Those that have been to my house will know what I mean.

ETA: I would call 911 and tell them that there's been a mistake and that I'm coming out with my hands up. Have a cop throw a set of cuffs through my already-busted door and I'll cuff myself before coming out for the safety of everyone.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 7:29:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NoVaGator:
coupla things....I don't think no-knocks-gone- wrong are all that common and I don't think a governmental agency can have a NDA in a settlement in most states.

2nd - I don't think it's completely unrealistic to think that one well-armed person could kill three LEOs in this scenario. It really depends on the layout of the house. Those that have been to my house will know what I mean.

ETA: I would call 911 and tell them that there's been a mistake and that I'm coming out with my hands up. Have a cop throw a set of cuffs through my already-busted door and I'll cuff myself before coming out for the safety of everyone.



Roger that. Quite easy to turn a home into a well appointed, superbly decorated killzone/cattle chute if you want.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 7:31:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NoVaGator:
coupla things....I don't think no-knocks-gone- wrong are all that common and I don't think a governmental agency can have a NDA in a settlement in most states.

2nd - I don't think it's completely unrealistic to think that one well-armed person could kill three LEOs in this scenario. It really depends on the layout of the house. Those that have been to my house will know what I mean.

ETA: I would call 911 and tell them that there's been a mistake and that I'm coming out with my hands up. Have a cop throw a set of cuffs through my already-busted door and I'll cuff myself before coming out for the safety of everyone.



I'm still STUNNED and mortified you said the Thin Red Line was a good movie.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 7:33:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By NoVaGator:
coupla things....I don't think no-knocks-gone- wrong are all that common and I don't think a governmental agency can have a NDA in a settlement in most states.

2nd - I don't think it's completely unrealistic to think that one well-armed person could kill three LEOs in this scenario. It really depends on the layout of the house. Those that have been to my house will know what I mean.

ETA: I would call 911 and tell them that there's been a mistake and that I'm coming out with my hands up. Have a cop throw a set of cuffs through my already-busted door and I'll cuff myself before coming out for the safety of everyone.



I'm still STUNNED and mortified you said the Thin Red Line was a good movie.



It's actually part of my home defense plan. I have it looping on the 55" HDTV and the JBTs are mesmerized by the stunning cinematography. Then I shoot em like birds on a wire.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 7:37:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NoVaGator:

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By NoVaGator:
coupla things....I don't think no-knocks-gone- wrong are all that common and I don't think a governmental agency can have a NDA in a settlement in most states.

2nd - I don't think it's completely unrealistic to think that one well-armed person could kill three LEOs in this scenario. It really depends on the layout of the house. Those that have been to my house will know what I mean.

ETA: I would call 911 and tell them that there's been a mistake and that I'm coming out with my hands up. Have a cop throw a set of cuffs through my already-busted door and I'll cuff myself before coming out for the safety of everyone.



I'm still STUNNED and mortified you said the Thin Red Line was a good movie.



It's actually part of my home defense plan. I have it looping on the 55" HDTV and the JBTs are mesmerized by the stunning cinematography. Then I shoot em like birds on a wire.



Oh........OK, that makes more sense.

I suspect the JBT's would just actually drop to the ground, writhing in pain from the insipid plot and dialogue, and we could all avoid the whole messy shooting thing.

Link Posted: 12/30/2005 7:47:06 AM EDT
Put on their raid gear and then cut the face off of one of the dead or wounded JBT's.I would then escape while they are busy burning my house down.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 9:15:49 AM EDT
You haven't mentioned in this hypothetical scenario whether or not you are a criminal and they're there legally or not. ;)

I assume you're talking about a bad-address or bad-intel scenario.

If so, why weren't you barricaded in your room yelling out to them that you've called the cops? ;)
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 9:40:44 AM EDT
This actually happened in the Nashville area a couple years ago.

Police no-knocked the wrong house. Poor elderly home owner thought it was a home invasion and grabbed his shotgun. He didn't survive the raid.

Police had the wrong house. The house they intended to raid was either across the street (or next door, I can't remember which).
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 11:16:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By xinflt:
This actually happened in the Nashville area a couple years ago.

Police no-knocked the wrong house. Poor elderly home owner thought it was a home invasion and grabbed his shotgun. He didn't survive the raid.

Police had the wrong house. The house they intended to raid was either across the street (or next door, I can't remember which).



I have my address on my mailbox and by the front door.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 9:24:35 AM EDT
There's plenty blame to go around, even in a general case. In my area you can be at the corner of 33rd St and 33rd. Ave. Or, be on 33rd, as in 33rd WHAT? Of course there's a 33rd Terrace and a 33rd Lane; possibly a 33rd Circle and 33rd Way, in addition. So, it's made tough to get it right; and it 's the County's fault for allowing so many variations.

The honest police have to understand that they really need to get it right. All too often, no matter how noble their motives, police get caught up in an authority or power trip. No that's not even the usual charge, but the power does go to one's head unless carefully controlled. The police have to understand that people do not have to bow to them, or get on the floor for barked commands when the police have no right to be in their homes to begin with. Get it right! Just because you can get it covered up is not justification for being sloppy.

Then there are police who think they can swagger around and push people around - "who cares, we're the police." To them I say, you don't deserve your badge. And, that includes those who do sloppy surveillance, or get a warrant by embellishing on what they were told by some snitch. Hey, it's going to further my career! Same about the badge.

So, if you don't get it right because of confusing streets, or you want to operate on the say so of someone who is questionable, don't expect my backing.

To the honest police again, you know better than anyone about the home invasions (actual criminal) and their results. It happens more in some areas than others: here in FL it is quite frequent. So, what happens when you come smashing in? You think everyone is going to kneel? Don't be dumb! Again, get it right!

Some posters have said they post their address prominently. Right! Those who don't, well you have contributed to the getting the address wrong.

Know your friends. If you lie down with dogs, you wake up with fleas. Yes, I know, you should be able to associate with whomever you choose, and I agree. I also do not care if someone takes drugs: that's their business. Yes, I'm somewhat of a libertarian. But, if their activities are going to bring the police to the door, maybe I have to act differently as a practical matter, regardless of principle.

As others have said, in many other threads on a similar topic, the invasion, call it what it is, should only be in a life threatening hostage situation. It's not a game. An honest person can defend him/herself if someone comes crashing through the door. If police think whatever they do has to be ok, and what's wrong will be covered up, then they are nothing more than gangsters, and who needs them?

It;'s only because they haven't kicked in the "right" (or "wrong", depending on one's perspective) door, of someone of "prominence" that this goes on. As long as it's a poor slob who either is dead or hasn't the means to pay enough lawyers to get justice, the "public relations officer" can package it and sell it as another good, though necessarily violent" bust in the "ongoing war on drugs." Since the drug crap will soon wear out, substitute "terrorism", and the whole script can be re-used.
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