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Posted: 12/29/2005 1:05:20 PM EDT
We've discussed much of teh Founding Fathers intent and how it now applies to the current wiretap hullabaloo.


Question: Do you really think the Founding Fathers EVER intended CONTUS or the BoR provide a haven for terrorists to use against us, ot be utilized for the purpose of destroying this nation?


Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:06:25 PM EDT
... The British were the terrorists
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:08:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 1:18:20 PM EDT by garandman]

Originally Posted By Winston_Wolf:
... The British were the terrorists



Interestingly, you note the FF never drew up the Constitution (i.e. hamstring themselves) umtil AFTER the Redcoats were defeated.

I suspect the FF would have QUICKLY taken the personal papers of Americans who had regular communications with the Redcoats.

AND THEN THEY WOULD HANG THEM.

And we're wringing our hands over just listening to a conversation.

Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:12:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 1:15:25 PM EDT by Stealth]
And if the British had wiretapped the founding fathers we'd probably still be speaking English.


oh wait...


(eta: I wasn't in all all the wiretaps as it applies to the founding fathers hubbabaloo)
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:15:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:16:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
the America they founded no longer exists and has been dead for many years.

applying their actions and intentions to today's goverment is a moot point.



Humor me.

Make beleive that.....
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:19:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 1:19:59 PM EDT by motown_steve]
It was a completely different nation back then. We didn't have the enormous Federal Government that we have to day with tens of thousands of well trained, well armed, well equiped federal agents with international espionage and military resources at their command. The founding fathers didn't have the power to turn the government on the people because it relied on the people for much of it's power. The standing military was very small back then and the nation relied on the militia for defense.

The founding fathers also saw the threat of treason (which is essentialy what colaborating with Al Queda is) and made provisions to guard against it. I don't believe that the government started secretly reading people's correspondance during the war of 1812 or during the Mexican American war to determine whether or not they were aidint the enemy.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:25:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 1:26:45 PM EDT by garandman]

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
It was a completely different nation back then. We didn't have the enormous Federal Government that we have to day with tens of thousands of well trained, well armed, well equiped federal agents with international espionage and military resources at their command. The founding fathers didn't have the power to turn the government on the people because it relied on the people for much of it's power. The standing military was very small back then and the nation relied on the militia for defense.



If they thought the gov't would stay so benign, then why did they even pen the Constitution?

They did so cuz the KNEW what always happens to gov't. In essence, they wrote CONTUS for EXACTLY what we have today.

They wrote the CONTUS to address the power a King George had over the colonies.




The founding fathers also saw the threat of treason (which is essentialy what colaborating with Al Queda is) and made provisions to guard against it.



Well, if you are advocating public hangings of the US citizens communicating with al Queda (after the due process of a trial) I'm certainly open to that possibility.

But that does NOTHING to deter al Queda like the wiretaps could.



I don't believe that the government started secretly reading people's correspondance during the war of 1812 or during the Mexican American war to determine whether or not they were aidint the enemy.


I completely suspect ANYONE with known communications with the Redcoats got a right proper hanging , after taking ALL their papers, and a trial as approariate.

It would be an interesting topic to research.

Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:26:31 PM EDT
If you want to go that route, we wouldn't have been involved in the Middle East at all.
The FF's would have been content just to take the oil of the area from whomever was in charge, not caring whom, or what they did to their people or their neighbors.
Alliances with none, commerce with all.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:27:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
If you want to go that route, we wouldn't have been involved in the Middle East at all.
The FF's would have been content just to take the oil of the area from whomever was in charge, not caring whom, or what they did to their people or their neighbors.
Alliances with none, commerce with all.



Actually, that's a good point.

Well UNTIL 9/11 happenned. Or Pearl Harbor happenned.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:45:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 1:46:38 PM EDT by thedoctors308]

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
If you want to go that route, we wouldn't have been involved in the Middle East at all.
The FF's would have been content just to take the oil of the area from whomever was in charge, not caring whom, or what they did to their people or their neighbors.
Alliances with none, commerce with all.



Actually, that's a good point.

Well UNTIL 9/11 happenned. Or Pearl Harbor happenned.



But consider this (and this is not what I think we should have done, just what I think what would have happened)
OBL and co's main complaint is that we are occupying holy lands, being in the Middle East, etc.
If we weren't there, as we would not have been if the FF were running things, who is to say that 9/11 would have ever happened?

OTOH, Pearl Harbor was prolly more likely to occur - we were pretty isolationist and the Japanese still attacked us.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:55:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:
Interestingly, you note the FF never drew up the Constitution (i.e. hamstring themselves) umtil AFTER the Redcoats were defeated.



I say that is in poor comparison.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 2:09:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:38:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
I still wonder what kind of person would want to advocate privacy protections for al Queda suspects. It boggles my mind.




Ain't it a hoot. it is mind boggling.

I have a theory as to why.

The ones doing it are the ones who dont want their porn habit exposed, or their pot habit exposed, or whatever particualr embarassing vice they wouldn't want people knowing about.

I also suspect they were being idiots one time (most likely drunk and disorderly, public nudity, etc) and got busted by the cops, and now have a chip on their shoulder, cuz "ther man" made them stop acting like jerks.

In short, its a combination of something embrarassing (something vice related) about themslves they want kept secret and a distrust of gov't founded in their own lascivious lifestyle that they got busted for at some point in teh past.

Of course, some are just watchful patriots.

Which are which? Only they know for sure.

Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:39:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NimmerMehr:

Originally Posted By garandman:
Interestingly, you note the FF never drew up the Constitution (i.e. hamstring themselves) umtil AFTER the Redcoats were defeated.



I say that is in poor comparison.



Thanx for sharing your opinion, but such a comment doesn't really merit being addressed.

Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:41:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

But consider this (and this is not what I think we should have done, just what I think what would have happened)
OBL and co's main complaint is that we are occupying holy lands, being in the Middle East, etc.
If we weren't there, as we would not have been if the FF were running things, who is to say that 9/11 would have ever happened?

OTOH, Pearl Harbor was prolly more likely to occur - we were pretty isolationist and the Japanese still attacked us.



Woulda coulda shoulda.

Fact is, we ARE here now and have an enemy to fight.

To tie OUR OWN hands and give the enemy the opportnity to use our own superior form of gov't as the means to destroy us is idiotic in the extreme, and NOT what I can ever imagine the FF intended.

Link Posted: 12/30/2005 11:48:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman: I have a theory as to why. The ones doing it are the ones who dont want their porn habit exposed, or their pot habit exposed, or whatever particualr embarassing vice they wouldn't want people knowing about. I also suspect they were being idiots one time (most likely drunk and disorderly, public nudity, etc) and got busted by the cops, and now have a chip on their shoulder, cuz "ther man" made them stop acting like jerks.
My theory is that a lot of them are losers who were always jealous of the Big Dogs getting the hot babes. So they see the USA as the Big Dog. They want to knock the Big Dog down a notch by intentionally hurting it, even though they know the Big Dog happens to be the Guard Dog. They figure that once the Big Dog "learns its lesson" then they can put it back on guard duty. In the meantime, the wolves are sneaking in the back door and killing members of the flock. Luckily the flock has enough brains to put the Democraps back in the loser's column in election after election so the Big Dog can stay on station.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 11:52:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KlubMarcus:
My theory is that a lot of them are losers who were always jealous of the Big Dogs getting the hot babes. So they see the USA as the Big Dog. They want to knock the Big Dog down a notch by intentionally hurting it, even though they know the Big Dog happens to be the Guard Dog. They figure that once the Big Dog "learns its lesson" then they can put it back on guard duty. In the meantime, the wolves are sneaking in the back door and killing members of the flock. Luckily the flock has enough brains to put the Democraps back in the loser's column in election after election so the Big Dog can stay on station.



On a global scale, I'd agree.

I'm more talking about Americans who always and only see their own gov't as suspicious
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 1:35:06 PM EDT
Do you think that the First Amendment only applies to quill tip pens and the Gutenberg press, or the second Amendment only applies to muzzle loading flintlocks?

Terrorists are like Bandits...the Founding Fathers figured that Militias and the armed citizenry would take care of the problem.

Link Posted: 12/30/2005 1:44:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
the America they founded no longer exists and has been dead for many years.

applying their actions and intentions to today's goverment is a moot point.


What he said. ^
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 2:27:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
the America they founded no longer exists and has been dead for many years.

applying their actions and intentions to today's goverment is a moot point.



Wow, quite a believer in the ideals that founded this country.

So what you are saying is that the Constitution/BOR is toilet paper that the Government should wipe their ass with. The rights enumerated in them do not apply to current American citizens.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 2:37:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
I still wonder what kind of person would want to advocate privacy protections for al Queda suspects. It boggles my mind.



So an American citizen, as soon as they are accused by the Government of being an "Al Queda suspect", should have no rights whatsoever. Of course the Government is never wrong and never falsely accuses people. As you said, it boggles my mind what some of you condone to fight "the war on the boogeyman".


Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
Our intelligence agency has a list of al Queda & suspected al Queda operatives OVERSEAS.

Someone from this country calls someone on that list OVERSEAS & our agents listen in (thank God).

And we have people on this site screaming "rights violations!"

THAT is what is happening & THAT is what is being complained about by the libs. Nothing else!



As to this, you, me and the "common man"/citizen have no idea what the Government is doing and has done with wiretaps. It, out of all probability, goes far deeper then just listening in on out-of-country phone calls. After all, it is a "secret" and the citizens of this country shouldn't know what the government is doing.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 2:51:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dance:
So an American citizen, as soon as they are accused by the Government of being an "Al Queda suspect", should have no rights whatsoever. .



That has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the facts in this case.

Which is the usual methodolgy for people so clearly in the wrong. When you can't argue the facts, make up a new set of facts (aka "strawman") and then argue them.





Link Posted: 12/30/2005 2:53:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2005 3:06:54 PM EDT by garandman]

Originally Posted By Dance:
As to this, you, me and the "common man"/citizen have no idea what the Government is doing and has done with wiretaps. It, out of all probability, goes far deeper then just listening in on out-of-country phone calls. After all, it is a "secret" and the citizens of this country shouldn't know what the government is doing.



Typical.

"Out of all probability...."

No need to have actual evidence, just base public policy and conduct the war based on your looney suspicions, for which you have no evidence.

Link Posted: 12/30/2005 3:05:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2005 3:11:52 PM EDT by The_Macallan]

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
If you want to go that route, we wouldn't have been involved in the Middle East at all.
The FF's would have been content just to take the oil of the area from whomever was in charge, not caring whom, or what they did to their people or their neighbors.
Alliances with none, commerce with all.



You don't remember your early American history very well. Particulary American wars. Read up on the Barbary Wars.


Originally Posted By Bostonterrier97:
Do you think that the First Amendment only applies to quill tip pens and the Gutenberg press, or the second Amendment only applies to muzzle loading flintlocks?

Terrorists are like Bandits

"bandits"!??

Yeah - it's a "law enforcement issue"...

Call out the local sheriff - Abdulla has a backpack of C-4 on the train.



Originally Posted By Bostonterrier97:
the Founding Fathers figured that Militias and the armed citizenry would take care of the problem.

They were wrong.

WAY wrong.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 5:35:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By Dance:
As to this, you, me and the "common man"/citizen have no idea what the Government is doing and has done with wiretaps. It, out of all probability, goes far deeper then just listening in on out-of-country phone calls. After all, it is a "secret" and the citizens of this country shouldn't know what the government is doing.



Typical.

"Out of all probability...."

No need to have actual evidence, just base public policy and conduct the war based on your looney suspicions, for which you have no evidence.




Oh look! It appears to go a little deeper, with actual reporting/evidence from a newspaper. It will take awhile for the whole story to come out, if it ever does. It's wonderful how the Government keeps this stuff a secret.


www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20051221/news_1n21nsa.html

Link Posted: 1/1/2006 12:56:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dance:
It will take awhile for the whole story to come out, if it ever does.



I guess its too much to ask the Bush haters to keep their pie hole shut until that happens??





Link Posted: 1/1/2006 1:50:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By Dance:
It will take awhile for the whole story to come out, if it ever does.



I guess its too much to ask the Bush haters to keep their pie hole shut until that happens??








Pretty much like it is too much to ask you to come up with a valid argument.
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