Quoted: We've all read the various stories about bad things that PayPal does... google "PayPal Alternatives" and read the horror stories. (same with eBay) I found AlertPay (AlertPay.com) Their unacceptable uses:

Thanks for listing them. I just signed up for a business account...

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It is NOT a CRIME, civil court liability - understand? Yes, I do.  Now, explain to me how in each case there is a liability. Case 1: I, a resident of a no-ban state (MI), sell a 30 round magazine to another person in a no-ban state (VA) and that person commits a crime. Somehow, during the investigation, they find out he bought the magazine from me.  We used PayPal.  Explain liability. Case 2: I, a resident of a no-ban state (MI), sell a 30 round magazine to another person in a banned state (CA) and that person commits a crime. Somehow, during the investigation, they find out he bought the magazine from me.  We used PayPal.  Explain liability. Case 3, 4, 5, & 6. Each of the above cases, but substitute for PayPal: "check" and "Money Order" Thank you, No Expert ETA: since some one brought it up... I emailed the NRA-ILA and asked them.  I'll see what response they give. You are not being reasonable or understanding. In today's society YOU can be named if there is any TYPE of relationship where identified. The check, M.O. are direct, PAYPAL is the middle man and therefore nameable in a suit. Look you are incorrect, stop being a "lawyer" I am not, but I do know business law being in business. You can get named in a suit.   I am not being unreasonable...and I am not playing the "lawyer"... YOU are.  YOU are saying there is some special "middleman" connection with PayPal where they are somehow aware of (as if they are handling) the product exchanging hands more than with check or money order.  I am simply asking you to explain to me how this is.  that is what I am trying to understand from you.  By your explanation, PayPal has some kind of liability for being a "Middleman" that banks, USPS, Credit cards, and any other money transfer does not.  None of whom are aware of the purpose of the use of their service unless you tell them.   As to one of the earlier arguements of eBay having liability in "legal transactions" making sure they follow laws: Quoted: They simply don't have the resources available to monitor every single gun related transaction to make sure the seller and buyer are following state laws and so forth. How is this different than a person advertising an item for sale in the newspaper? Does the newspaper have some liability if the sale is somehow questioned down the line? No Expert EDIT typos

Simple personal BUSINESS example: My (C) company got named in a civil suit by a (A) company that was sued by another, company (B). So this started off (B) is suing (A). (A) named us (C) as co-defendant with THEM based upon our role performed for them. We all (A, B & C) appeared before a judge at the same hearing. After hearing our side, the judge upheld for my company for having done its part of the job, and our part the case was dismissed. We still HAD to hire and pay for an Attorney (min. $200-300/hour, not including court paperwork). The point is YOU and others NOT living in the Anti-gun states think judges will act and rule rationally, logically. They rule in the tradition of their appointment, if appointed or party voted in, typically - dems and libs give in to the irrational and you the innocent middleman transactor is NOW before the court pending possible financial punishment and liability.

So some companies like Paypal CHOOSE not to deal with the petty bullshit and harassment and make their life SIMPLE. They choose from a business perspective to not do business in this area of firearms and its accessories.

Once again, the NRA-ILA shows/reviews no Anti-gun policy on Paypal or Ebay.

Quoted: Quoted: Its there policy. Doesnt make them anti anything. I think it helps cover there ass in the event something happens. Dont get me wrong, it sucks and they could be making alot more mney if they allowed it, and I still wouldnt use them if they did allow guns things, btu I dont think it makes them anti gun. So, i paid for a A2 sight tool and then used the AR in a crime it would be their ass? I dont think so. If that were the case i dont think anybody would have the balls to sell firearms. They are anti-gun, why does everybody have such a hard time understanding this?

They are not anti-gun so says the NRA-ILA - period. You have supportable facts use them as an argument. You got burned, sorry. If is is a gun, firearm, knife or accessory they don't want to have involvement with it - pure business.

Quoted: As a matter of fact, I DO NOT get any delight from the idea whatsoever. Here's a little story: My best friend that used to work in New Jersey (thankfully he's back in Michigan now) loves to retell the story of how he had the discussion of which of his guns were illegal in NJ with his anti-gun mother.  He would pull out his 30-06 and his .22. Lay one round from each on the table, and ask his Mother which gun was banned in NJ.  She matter of factly stated "the big one!".  Nope, the 30-06 was legal, the .22 was illegal cause the tubular magazine held more than 10 rds (I think he said 15, but even more if he loaded shorts).  Her response "Well that doesn't make sense." His response, "exactly". My question about what you said was sincere.  No cutesy smilies. You, I believe and I hope, are seriously wishing to change the stupid, inane, draconian laws which NJ has. I commend you for that. BUT, if you can also say as a member that: What's happened in NJ is coming to a state near you soon. When it does, I hope you walk as good as you talk. Then it makes one wonder if you are saying that NJ has no hope and will spread to infect other states.  I would like to think the other way. Since FL passed their "Right to carry"...many other states have benefited from their example and passed similar legislation. MI being one of them, and I pick up my CCW tomorrow. Point being, I do hope that one day I'll see you say the same thing. I am not out to fight YOU. No, I can't say I've ever donated to the NJSCD, I have donated to many Michigan groups and the the NRA. The NRA helps me, you, and all the other states as well.   No Expert ETA. No apology necessary, I am not your enemy.

I do appreciate your sincerity in asking, and thanks for clarifying. What I normally encounter on national message boards are people who bash NJ because of the stupid gun laws and then go on to summarily dismiss the state as a lost cause, not realizing that there are folks here who still do care about preserving the very few rights we have left and even harbor some hope that we can gain back some of the ground we've lost. Yes, it's very discouraging when that happens. Getting some support from our fellow gun owners in other parts of the country would really be a wonderful thing, instead of the standard "Why don't you just move?" Grrr. How 'bout some suggestions instead for how we might be able to win our rights back?

Now, when I say "coming to a state near you soon" it's to serve as a warning for those of you who do still enjoy your rights to not allow yourselves to become too comfortable. Look for a moment at what's taken place in Pennsylvania. Ed Rendell, former mayor of Philadelphia and staunch anti-gun Democrat, is now the governor. Bryan Miller, who runs CeaseFire here in NJ, is in the process of expanding his organization into Pennsylvania, and you can bet that you're going to see his ugly mug pop up at joint press conferences with Rendell and other anti-rights politicos as time goes on, because he now has people in high places who will give him time on the public soapbox. I'm going to hazard a guess that Rendell's election had a lot to do with the voting patterns of the state's big cities - Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Harrisburg - and those living in between have to make that much more of an effort to get out and vote to counter that. If PA gun owners are of the mind that "it can't happen here", that needs to be reversed in a big hurry if they want to hang on to their rights. Pro-2A groups in PA have to be pro-active instead of reactive.

Gun owners in NJ have become a non-factor politically because the leadership of pro-rights groups here has been virtually nonexistent - including that of the NRA. They've allowed themselves to be defined by the other side as the years have gone by, and now find themselves operating from a position of weakness. Part of NJCSD's mission is to change that mentality, but getting smacked by fellow gun owners across the country isn't going to help the cause.

As far as PayPal goes, NJCSD has done its research and concluded that while PayPal may not be the ideal vehicle for selling gun-related merchandise, they are not blatantly anti-gun. Their PAC donations do not bear this out. I have yet to see anyone disprove this, or even address it here on this thread.

A company makes policy for a reason. If you disagree with it, then you find an alternative, which several of you here have done. But before making a declarative statement about the political leanings of any company or individual, you need to look a little deeper. It's only prudent, don't you agree?

Quoted: Quoted: Papal booted me for selling a vertical foregrip! I called when I got the email saying that my acct. had been closed but not disclosing the reason. The Rep told me because it was a gun accessory! I think if I worded the auction different I might have gotten away with it. Ebay closed my listing for a freaking stock!

They pulled my add for a SLING.....

Quoted: Simple personal BUSINESS example: My (C) company got named in a civil suit by a (A) company that was sued by another, company (B). So this started off (B) is suing (A). (A) named us (C) as co-defendant with THEM based upon our role performed for them. We all (A, B & C) appeared before a judge at the same hearing. After hearing our side, the judge upheld for my company for having done its part of the job, and our part the case was dismissed. We still HAD to hire and pay for an Attorney (min. $200-300/hour, not including court paperwork). The point is YOU and others NOT living in the Anti-gun states think judges will act and rule rationally, logically. They rule in the tradition of their appointment, if appointed or party voted in, typically - dems and libs give in to the irrational and you the innocent middleman transactor is NOW before the court pending possible financial punishment and liability. So some companies like Paypal CHOOSE not to deal with the petty bullshit and harassment and make their life SIMPLE. They choose from a business perspective to not do business in this area of firearms and its accessories. Once again, the NRA-ILA shows/reviews no Anti-gun policy on Paypal or Ebay.

May I ask the nature of the business without naming names?  Was your company simply the monetary transfer agent of funds between (A) and (B) or where you somehow partnered with the defendent in the production, developement, construction, or manufacturing of a product or rendered service?

No Expert

My (C) company got named in a civil suit by a (A) company that was sued by another, company (B). So this started off (B) is suing (A). (A) named us (C) as co-defendant with THEM based upon our role performed for them. We all (A, B & C) appeared before a judge at the same hearing. After hearing our side, the judge upheld for my company for having done its part of the job, and our part the case was dismissed.

We provided a service that (B) could not provide successfully. We (C) were paid, (B) claimed they did deserved all or some of the payment from (A). Judge ruled they had not.

PAYPAL is providing a service, a widely used (convenient) and accepted service. One saying that it is just a transfer of money is an oversimplification. All here throwing rocks at PAYPAL have OTHER avenues to use to make a payment. If you want the convenience of PAYPAL and want to use it and read and accept the "terms of agreement" you are bound to that agreement. It is THEIR football.

Once again, if the NRA-ILA changes it's position, I believe NJCSD will also - I am a member and don't dictate policy. All the yelling and screaming will not change PAYPAL's terms of agreement.