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Posted: 12/25/2005 6:29:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2005 6:33:07 AM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
Sunday, December 25, 2005
But he'll remember, with advantages ...

If the defining youthful experience of the 1960s were the civil-rights and antiwar movements, what is today's? Robert Kaplan writing in the LA Times thinks he knows.


If you want to meet the future political leaders of the United States, go to Iraq. I am not referring to the generals, or even the colonels. I mean the junior officers and enlistees in their 20s and 30s. In the decades ahead, they will represent something uncommon in U.S. military history: war veterans with practical experience in democratic governance, learned under the most challenging of conditions. For several weeks, I observed these young officers working behind the scenes to organize the election in Mosul, Iraq's second-largest city. ... Throughout Iraq, young Army and Marine captains have become veritable mayors of micro-regions, meeting with local sheiks, setting up waste-removal programs to employ young men, dealing with complaints about cuts in electricity and so on. They have learned to arbitrate tribal politics, to speak articulately and to sit through endless speeches without losing patience.

I watched Lt. John Turner of Indianapolis get up on his knees from a carpet while sipping tea with a former neighborhood mukhtar and plead softly: "Sir, I am willing to die for a country that is not my own. So will you resume your position as mukhtar? Brave men must stand forward. Iraq's wealth is not oil but its civilization. Trust me by the projects I bring, not by my words." Turner, a D student in high school, got straightened out as an enlisted man in the Coast Guard before earning a degree from Purdue and becoming an Army officer. He is one of what Col. Michael Shields, commander of the 172nd Stryker Brigade Combat Team in Mosul, calls his "young soldier-statesmen."

Commentary

The third thread of 1960s youth experience was service in Vietnam; but it had to go underground. Hollywood took a long time to make a movie about the Vietnam experience and then only from the perspective of outsiders looking in, as in the Deer Hunter. Cultural historians would have called it the losing thread -- or the odd threat at least -- in this sense: whereas in veterans of World War 2 were universally asked 'Daddy, what did you do during the war?', more people were willing to talk about watching Grace Slick at Yasgur's Farm than in recalling the Ia Drang Valley. William Shakespeare described what it was to miss truly defining moment of a generation.

And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.



That sentiment, for some reason, did not apply to Vietnam. But Robert Kaplan has reason to think that the times, they are a-changin'.


posted by wretchard at 12:46 AM | 14 comments

Link Posted: 12/25/2005 6:32:22 AM EDT
This is actually something I have been thinking about for a couple weeks now. If the Media and the Democratic party DO cost us this war, will THIS generation of veterans crawl away and hide like the Vietnam vets did? Or will they use the technology available now- the Internet- to organize and strike back?

What form would such a movement take? Who would be their targets? How would they conduct themselves?
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 6:45:56 AM EDT
It will all depend how we finish the job in Iraq. If we cut and run, there will be a bunch of angry dissillusioned vets.
If we see this through then we'll have a bunch of proud men ready and able to lead here at home.

Link Posted: 12/25/2005 6:48:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
It will all depend how we finish the job in Iraq. If we cut and run, there will be a bunch of angry dissillusioned vets.
If we see this through then we'll have a bunch of proud men ready and able to lead here at home.




Why do you assume they would be dissillusioned? Why not angry?

For the Vietnam vets they had to deal with the news media marganilizing them, and denying them a voice.

This generation has the Internet to get their message out and to organize.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 6:52:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
It will all depend how we finish the job in Iraq. If we cut and run, there will be a bunch of angry dissillusioned vets.
If we see this through then we'll have a bunch of proud men ready and able to lead here at home.




Why do you assume they would be dissillusioned? Why not angry?

For the Vietnam vets they had to deal with the news media marganilizing them, and denying them a voice.

This generation has the Internet to get their message out and to organize.



I did say angry. What an angry man does is harder to predict.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 6:53:17 AM EDT
I think the dummycraps are really screwing themselves. Even the stupid college kids can see how ignorant they are.

Link Posted: 12/25/2005 7:00:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2005 7:36:52 AM EDT by warlord]
From an ARFCOM post:
LAT--From Heckles to Halos-Soldiers treated to strangers' spontaneous bursts of gratitude

In dramatic contrast to the Vietnam War era, U.S. service personnel now are being treated to strangers' spontaneous bursts of gratitude.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 7:04:04 AM EDT
Since many of the military personnel that were over there have already rotated back, I think the political backlash will ultimately rest on something other than the actual return of the troops; it will be from whatever happens to the country of Iraq itself, and I don't see anything positive happening there. I think the country will fall apart when we leave, and a lot of people will ask why so many Americans had to die and be maimed for life for what was ultimately a failed effort.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 7:13:20 AM EDT
Backlash? WTF? The press has everything so wrong, they're reading from a 35 year old play book. They make Rush Limbaugh's job about as hard as falling off a log.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 7:18:31 AM EDT
Interesting question.... I think in more ways than one the political climate will be quite different for years to come, even if the veterans of the current campaigns make up less than 2% of the US population.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 7:31:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
This is actually something I have been thinking about for a couple weeks now. If the Media and the Democratic party DO cost us this war, will THIS generation of veterans crawl away and hide like the Vietnam vets did? Or will they use the technology available now- the Internet- to organize and strike back?

What form would such a movement take? Who would be their targets? How would they conduct themselves?



WTF, over?
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 7:50:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
If the Media and the Democratic party DO cost us this war, will THIS generation of veterans crawl away and hide like the Vietnam vets did?



You dishonor the men and women who served in the Military and in Vietnam with this statement.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 7:55:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KA3B:

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
If the Media and the Democratic party DO cost us this war, will THIS generation of veterans crawl away and hide like the Vietnam vets did?



You dishonor the men and women who served in the Military and in Vietnam with this statement.



There is SOME truth to it.
Many are quiet about Vietnam.
Perhaps they don't feel like bringing it up because it is portrayed as shameful by many assholes in the media.
Many Vietnam vets probably feel like America let them down.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 10:52:14 AM EDT
Most of my friends and coworkers who have retured from Iraq are relatively unchanged by the experiance. It's a different kind of war when you can call or email home regularly. They are less detached from home than the military in past wars.

Most just seem to rally want a beer and to get back to their normal lives.


When I look at the urban single enlistment recruits I dont see the experiance changing their polictics much. A poor black kid from Flint Michigan, Inglewood or New Orleans is not going to turn into a gun loving right wing republican because of a 2 or 4 year stint as a motor-t mechanic.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 11:05:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By raven:
Backlash? WTF? The press has everything so wrong, they're reading from a 35 year old play book. They make Rush Limbaugh's job about as hard as falling off a log.



Yes, backlash. When the USA pulls out and the government there falls apart just as the South Vietnamese gov't did when we pulled out from there, the US government will face some serious questions from the public. I believe there will be a backlash from the general population. It has nothing to do with the US media reporting or not reporting whatever news you think is being left out.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 3:38:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By raven:
Backlash? WTF? The press has everything so wrong, they're reading from a 35 year old play book. They make Rush Limbaugh's job about as hard as falling off a log.



Yes, backlash. When the USA pulls out and the government there falls apart just as the South Vietnamese gov't did when we pulled out from there, the US government will face some serious questions from the public. I believe there will be a backlash from the general population. It has nothing to do with the US media reporting or not reporting whatever news you think is being left out.



You are profoundly wrong… I suspect it comes from knowing TV history and not knowing real history.

We did not just pull out of Vietnam and the government collapse. The Democratic Party after Watergate willfully cut off all military aid to South Vietnam as a extra dig at Nixon… leaving the South defenseless and basically told the North the door was open to do what they wished to we would not interfere.

There was an eventual political cost to this for the Democratic Party … his name was Reagan.

The Democrats want to revert to the same playbook and do it all over again… if they do they will pay the price again.

So you stick with the “stuck on stupid” playbook and reap the just reward.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 3:51:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
This is actually something I have been thinking about for a couple weeks now. If the Media and the Democratic party DO cost us this war, will THIS generation of veterans crawl away and hide like the Vietnam vets did Or will they use the technology available now- the Internet- to organize and strike back?

What form would such a movement take? Who would be their targets? How would they conduct themselves?[/quote


Which theatre did you EARN your CIB in?

Truly spoken like a DUer.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 4:00:45 PM EDT
Well , if by Backlash you mean a large group of intelligent and moral vets who will
actively support their country politically in civilian life - and wont take a Bunch of
Crap from Pussy Liberals - Then I think we will see that
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 4:04:44 PM EDT
All of the OIF vets I have met are proud of what they have done in Iraq. I can't imagine what it is like for them to watch the news and see the world upside down.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 4:07:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Leisure_Shoot:
There is SOME truth to it.
Many are quiet about Vietnam.
Perhaps they don't feel like bringing it up because it is portrayed as shameful by many assholes in the media.
Many Vietnam vets probably feel like America let them down.



There is a big difference between "being quiet" and "crawl away and hide".
ArmdLbrl dishonors every American Service Member and shits on Vietnam Vets with that statement.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 4:12:13 PM EDT
The anti-war crowd has revealed themselves to be more anti-american than anti-war. I hope that sticks to them like velcro.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 4:16:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:
The anti-war crowd has revealed themselves to be more anti-american than anti-war. I hope that sticks to them like velcro.



BINGO

+1

It will this is a no win issue for Democrats.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 4:20:03 PM EDT
None. Only a pu$$y would complain about the war.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 4:21:27 PM EDT
When I think of the anti war crowd, I can't help but think
of this.

Link Posted: 12/25/2005 6:38:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:
You are profoundly wrong… I suspect it comes from knowing TV history and not knowing real history.

We did not just pull out of Vietnam and the government collapse. The Democratic Party after Watergate willfully cut off all military aid to South Vietnam as a extra dig at Nixon… leaving the South defenseless and basically told the North the door was open to do what they wished to we would not interfere.

There was an eventual political cost to this for the Democratic Party … his name was Reagan.

The Democrats want to revert to the same playbook and do it all over again… if they do they will pay the price again.

So you stick with the “stuck on stupid” playbook and reap the just reward.



How exactly what you described NOT pulling out and abandoning the South? Are you disputing the timeline involved or how we let them down? We pulled out, we did not support the South in any fashion and the North overran the South. How is that "TV history"?
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 9:51:58 PM EDT
Those returning from SE Asia, they had no means of countering what was being aired on TV and printed in the newspapers other than word of mouth. Therefore, what was reported became fact in most of America. That it wasn't 100% true kinda got lost for a while, and judging by what I've read here, this is still the case to some extent.
This will not happen with what we are doing in Iraq, for the MSM (for lack of a better word) no longer are the only means of information dissemination. Now the troops have instant comms, and already they have effected things. For example, I seriously dobt that anyone who has served in Iraq will ever believe what they see or read from the MSM ever again, wthout some serious fact checking. The families also.
What else wil happen? Who knows, but I do know this: The Moonbat Left has finally lost it's stranglehold on the flow of information, and are being shown to be the petulant children they have always been. Only now, the rest of the country can finally see it.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 10:00:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
This is actually something I have been thinking about for a couple weeks now. If the Media and the Democratic party DO cost us this war, will THIS generation of veterans crawl away and hide like the Vietnam vets did? Or will they use the technology available now- the Internet- to organize and strike back?

What form would such a movement take? Who would be their targets? How would they conduct themselves?



WTF, over?



+1 WTF??? Where did THAT come from?
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 10:23:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
This is actually something I have been thinking about for a couple weeks now. If the Media and the Democratic party DO cost us this war, will THIS generation of veterans crawl away and hide like the Vietnam vets did? Or will they use the technology available now- the Internet- to organize and strike back?

What form would such a movement take? Who would be their targets? How would they conduct themselves?



As a Nam Vet I resent your stupid ass statement. We didn't run away an hide. We tried to assimilate back into a society that abandoned us. We didn't have email and instant communication back then as we do now. If we did then perhaps the outcome would have been different. You're probably one of those assholes who blame the Nam Vets for losing the war too. Screw You and the horse you rode in on!
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 10:37:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Since many of the military personnel that were over there have already rotated back, I think the political backlash will ultimately rest on something other than the actual return of the troops; it will be from whatever happens to the country of Iraq itself, and I don't see anything positive happening there. I think the country will fall apart when we leave, and a lot of people will ask why so many Americans had to die and be maimed for life for what was ultimately a failed effort.



I'm curious. Have you even been "there"? I am "there" now and I have seen a lot of positive things. A week ago I was on a 3 hour convoy from Tallil (southern Iraq) to Ad Diwaniyah. I saw road construction practically the whole way. Kids are going to school with brand new backpacks and books and the schools themselves are being repaired and rebuilt. Just because CNN doesn't report anything good does not mean that those things are not happening here.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 10:56:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By s1rGr1nG0:

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Since many of the military personnel that were over there have already rotated back, I think the political backlash will ultimately rest on something other than the actual return of the troops; it will be from whatever happens to the country of Iraq itself, and I don't see anything positive happening there. I think the country will fall apart when we leave, and a lot of people will ask why so many Americans had to die and be maimed for life for what was ultimately a failed effort.



I'm curious. Have you even been "there"? I am "there" now and I have seen a lot of positive things. A week ago I was on a 3 hour convoy from Tallil (southern Iraq) to Ad Diwaniyah. I saw road construction practically the whole way. Kids are going to school with brand new backpacks and books and the schools themselves are being repaired and rebuilt. Just because CNN doesn't report anything good does not mean that those things are not happening here.



Don't waste your time. He thrives on the failure of American values and only supports neofascist socialism. Work to better America and support freedom, not listen to the blatherings of America's enemies.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 12:02:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Most of my friends and coworkers who have retured from Iraq are relatively unchanged by the experiance. It's a different kind of war when you can call or email home regularly. They are less detached from home than the military in past wars.

Most just seem to rally want a beer and to get back to their normal lives.


When I look at the urban single enlistment recruits I dont see the experiance changing their polictics much. A poor black kid from Flint Michigan, Inglewood or New Orleans is not going to turn into a gun loving right wing republican because of a 2 or 4 year stint as a motor-t mechanic.



You said it. Especially moreso for the people with wives and children back home.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 11:41:47 AM EDT
Well , if by Backlash you mean a large group of intelligent and moral vets who will
actively support their country politically in civilian life - and wont take a Bunch of
Crap from Pussy Liberals - Then I think we will see that


These vets will return home and not be silent. They will tell their local newspapers and TV that the media was for the most part lying about what was going on in the war. Even if ignored, there will be blogs and websites. They will not be silenced this time.

The Dems and other socialist/communist punks will have exposed themselves for what they are. They won't be able to deny all the un-American things they have said and done.

"We support the troops but are against the war." This lie will be shown for what it really is.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 2:04:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Unknown1Sailor:
Those returning from SE Asia, they had no means of countering what was being aired on TV and printed in the newspapers other than word of mouth. Therefore, what was reported became fact in most of America. That it wasn't 100% true kinda got lost for a while, and judging by what I've read here, this is still the case to some extent.
This will not happen with what we are doing in Iraq, for the MSM (for lack of a better word) no longer are the only means of information dissemination. Now the troops have instant comms, and already they have effected things. For example, I seriously dobt that anyone who has served in Iraq will ever believe what they see or read from the MSM ever again, wthout some serious fact checking. The families also.
What else wil happen? Who knows, but I do know this: The Moonbat Left has finally lost it's stranglehold on the flow of information, and are being shown to be the petulant children they have always been. Only now, the rest of the country can finally see it.


I agree, times has changed, back then Al Gore hadn't invented the internet because he was busy fighting, but today, we all know that 90% put out by the mainstream news media is bogus. All you have to do is read the first hand report from the people who are members of this board that are in Iraq/Afghanistan today. It doesn't take very for long for someone BSing to be outed. As a case in point look what happened to Dan Rather, nothing like embarasssed in the eyes of their peers and watching them squirm, it is almost like the kiss of death professional-wise.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 2:32:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2005 2:37:29 PM EDT by tc556guy]

Originally Posted By s1rGr1nG0:

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Since many of the military personnel that were over there have already rotated back, I think the political backlash will ultimately rest on something other than the actual return of the troops; it will be from whatever happens to the country of Iraq itself, and I don't see anything positive happening there. I think the country will fall apart when we leave, and a lot of people will ask why so many Americans had to die and be maimed for life for what was ultimately a failed effort.



I'm curious. Have you even been "there"? I am "there" now and I have seen a lot of positive things. A week ago I was on a 3 hour convoy from Tallil (southern Iraq) to Ad Diwaniyah. I saw road construction practically the whole way. Kids are going to school with brand new backpacks and books and the schools themselves are being repaired and rebuilt. Just because CNN doesn't report anything good does not mean that those things are not happening here.



By "there", I did not mean "there" physically or geographically. "There" referred to the portion of the sentence that preceeded it, specifically "it will be from whatever happens to the country of Iraq itself". I am sure that we are pouring plenty of effort into winning the hearts and minds through construction projects and the other efforts you mention. However, once the well dries up and US support fades, the country will be left to its own devices and I don't hold much hope "there" ( do you understand the use of the word now? The country will most likely descend into tribal warfare and factionalism.

And I read plenty of the "positive spin" every day when I log onto AKO.

And to answer your question, my unit didn't get activated to go over in '03 because were were already on Title 10 missions and state active duty missions, some that dated back to 9/11. The Title 10 missions went two years, and upon the unit reconsolidating at the end of that mission they decided they wanted to reclass us as 31B. That took a year, and as soon as we finished THAT training they said, nah, we'll keep you 11 series, let you keep the 31B as a secondary, and now you are Heavy Weapons. And we've been reorged in with a bunch of guys who just got back from over there and are going through their post-deployment recovery cycle.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 2:46:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Since many of the military personnel that were over there have already rotated back, I think the political backlash will ultimately rest on something other than the actual return of the troops; it will be from whatever happens to the country of Iraq itself, and I don't see anything positive happening there. I think the country will fall apart when we leave, and a lot of people will ask why so many Americans had to die and be maimed for life for what was ultimately a failed effort.



+1

Link Posted: 12/26/2005 6:29:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 6:40:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AKsRule:
Well , if by Backlash you mean a large group of intelligent and moral vets who will
actively support their country politically in civilian life - and wont take a Bunch of
Crap from Pussy Liberals - Then I think we will see that


+1

That's what I see.
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