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Posted: 12/21/2005 9:43:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2005 9:46:04 PM EDT by DigDug]
www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,179444,00.html

WASHINGTON — Late Wednesday evening, senators struck a deal that will fully reauthorize the Patriot Act in its current form for six months and give lawmakers the chance to revisit controversial portions of the act that have been subject to extensive opposition.

Soon after the deal was announced, the Senate passed the extension.

The agreement came after a full day of negotiation among President Bush and Senate Republican leaders who support renewal and Democrats and moderate GOPers who oppose the act in its negotiated form.

According to the deal reached late Wednesday, the 16 expiring provisions of the Patriot Act would be renewed for six months. That will give opponents the chance to take up the civil liberties issues that forced a filibuster on the bill last week.

Republican Sens. Chuck Hagel of Nebraska, Larry Craig of Idaho, John Sununu of New Hampshire and Lisa Murkowksi of Alaska helped block a final vote on a compromise bill offered by House and Senate negotiators last week. In the last days, four more Republican moderates agreed that they wanted to look at a few of the provisions that most irk civil liberties groups.

"For a lot of reasons, it made the most sense, given that there are significant differences that remain," said Sununu.

"We now have six months to mend the Patriot Act. Democrats will use this time to make sure the Patriot Act gives the government the tools it needs to fight the terrorists while also protecting the privacy of innocent Americans," Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid said in a written statement.

The House has already approved the final version negotiated by House and Senate conferees last week. Members may need to return to vote on the shortened expiration date. The Patriot Act was set to expire at the end of the month.

Early in the day, several lawmakers said they were hopeful that secret talks could yield a compromise and allow the measure to pass before it expires.

Chances of a deal "are brighter in the last half hour than they've been for six days," said Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee and a supporter of the legislation in mid-afternoon. At that time, the deal being negotiated was to let the Senate pass the current legislation for four years on the agreement that the three provisions causing the most consternation could be re-evaluated and face a vote by May 31, 2006.

"We'd have hearings early next year and consider the amendments, no commitment as to passage, but give consideration to that so we don't have the Patriot Act lapse, since it's important to America," Specter said.

A senior Justice Department official speaking before the deal was reached told FOX News that "things are moving" on Capitol Hill said "the department would be pleased" if the Senate reached an agreement on Specter's suggestion.

Early Wednesday, President Bush demanded that the Senate renew the Patriot Act for the full four-year extension even as he received a letter early Wednesday from senators requesting a three-month extension of the current law.

Bush declared "obstruction" on passage of the act is "inexcusable" and "will endanger America."

He warned that the terrorist threat won't expire even if the Patriot Act does, and he said his administration has been careful not to use the act in a way that abuses civil liberties.

"It has been an effective tool; it has worked. And the same as we protected the American people using the Patriot Act, we've also protected their civil liberties. There is extensive oversight on this very important program," he said on his way to Bethesda Naval Medical Center in Maryland, where he visited with military medical caregivers.

In a separate event, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff and Attorney General Alberto Gonzales argued that if the Senate refuses to renew the law, they will have made the United States a more dangerous place.

If the act expires, "we put some very important weapons down on the ground in the War on Terror," Chertoff said. "We will not be as safe. That's what is at stake."

Gonzales said the act has been "extremely effective" in helping law enforcement sniff out terrorist plots and stop them before they happen, and the new legislation "contains 30 additional safeguards for civil liberties" to appease civil libertarians.

But the president faced a dilemma after receiving a letter signed by 44 Democrats and eight Republicans, who said they preferred extending the act for 90 days while additional changes to the conference report are negotiated. That is a majority of the body and enough to block any future votes to renew the law.

Click here to read the letter from 52 senators to Bush on extending the current Patriot Act law.

Opponents to the extension contend that more civil liberties protections are needed in the bill, which Congress passed after the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks to give law enforcement additional powers.

Lawmakers say they want to adjust two or three provisions of the 16 main components in the act. They include restricting the circumstances under which the government can search the records, homes or businesses of people with suspected ties to terrorism, without getting a court's authorization.

Sununu told FOX News that he wants to see changes to the "gag orders" with regard to national security letters and on library and business records searches.

Craig aides said the senator wants to see stricter constraints on so-called "sneak-and-peek" searches.

Opponents of the provisions also say they want to give people suspected of plotting terrorist acts more access to the courts. Democratic Sen. Chuck Schumer of New York said Bush doesn't have many options.

"The choice is very simple; it is a three-month extension or some extension of a relatively short time," Schumer said during the afternoon. "We can't change that we had one vote already. And the question is whether we move forward and the country suffers."

"Our goal is to mend it or extend it, not end it," said Sen. Patrick Leahy of Vermont, the ranking Democrat on the Senate Judiciary Committee and one of the Democratic negotiators who refused to sign the conference report.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 9:46:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 9:52:53 PM EDT
What fools we have all become......
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 12:47:54 AM EDT
Damned morons!!! I was really hoping the whole thing would just fall off.

But, I suppose, on the upside, I did read and article the other day that made a good point. Basically is proposed the idea that if the Patriot Act did sunset it would give the Nazi-cons a good reason to light off a nuke in the US (or some other 'terrorist' act) to then come out crying with "see, we didnt have the patriot act to protect people with, and look what happened". I guess now Im hoping for a minor incident so that we can come out crying "see fags, that patriot act is a worthless, civil liberties stomping, POS; it didnt protect jack squat". Ahhhhh fuck it, I picked my new RRA up from my dealer today. COME WITH THE THUNDER, BITCHES!!!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 2:52:22 AM EDT
The founding fathers sacrificed blood to preserve liberty. Now the politicians sacrifice liberty to preserve blood. Asshats.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 2:57:59 AM EDT
God Damn them, and I mean that.

Power is the ultimate drug.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 3:00:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 3:18:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 3:19:58 AM EDT by hardcorps1775]

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
I guess it beats the permanent extension called for.


yeah, and it also gives us time to get off our asses and write our congresscritters to express our views, yea or nay.

personally, i'm for another limited extension just like the first patriot act and the brady bill, a sunset date.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 3:42:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DavidHayter:
Damned morons!!! I was really hoping the whole thing would just fall off.

But, I suppose, on the upside, I did read and article the other day that made a good point. Basically is proposed the idea that if the Patriot Act did sunset it would give the Nazi-cons a good reason to light off a nuke in the US (or some other 'terrorist' act) to then come out crying with "see, we didnt have the patriot act to protect people with, and look what happened". I guess now Im hoping for a minor incident so that we can come out crying "see fags, that patriot act is a worthless, civil liberties stomping, POS; it didnt protect jack squat". Ahhhhh fuck it, I picked my new RRA up from my dealer today. COME WITH THE THUNDER, BITCHES!!!!!!!!!!!!




You actually believe the Republicans (that's who the nazi-cons are, right?) or for that matter the Democrats would stage a terrorist attack for the purpose of justifying their position on the Patriot Act?


Wow.. Just wow..
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 3:51:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 3:58:29 AM EDT by GUNGUY1911]

Originally Posted By DavidHayter:
Damned morons!!! I was really hoping the whole thing would just fall off.

But, I suppose, on the upside, I did read and article the other day that made a good point. Basically is proposed the idea that if the Patriot Act did sunset it would give the Nazi-cons a good reason to light off a nuke in the US (or some other 'terrorist' act) to then come out crying with "see, we didnt have the patriot act to protect people with, and look what happened". I guess now Im hoping for a minor incident so that we can come out crying "see fags, that patriot act is a worthless, civil liberties stomping, POS; it didnt protect jack squat". Ahhhhh fuck it, I picked my new RRA up from my dealer today. COME WITH THE THUNDER, BITCHES!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dude, you're talking out your ass because your mouth knows better! Ring for the nurse to bring your meds right after craft time! You can't honestly believe the shit you just typed can you?

ETA: I'm no huge fan of the PA, but what you just said is...well, just plain retarded! Hopefully, I misunderstood?
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 3:59:05 AM EDT
So is this like the other threads for the last several weeks?

PA Renewed!!.......oh wait, more voting
PA NOT renewed!!.......oh wait, more voting
PA Renewed!!.......oh wait, more voting
PA NOT renewed!!.......oh wait, more voting
PA Renewed!!.......oh wait, more voting
PA NOT renewed!!.......oh wait, more voting
PA Renewed!!.......oh wait, more voting
PA NOT renewed!!.......oh wait, more voting
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:02:12 AM EDT
NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:14:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:18:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
I guess it beats the permanent extension called for.



There are people on this board who tell me I do not understand how the US works. Apparently, your consitution and legal systems means this sort of Act cannot be lawful in the US, only in 'Euro' countries with 'subjects'....

ANdy


hahahaha touche!

they can pass it but whether or not it would stand would depend on the courts (and i'm pretty damn sure it would end up there sooner or later). also, with enough public outrage and resultant expulsion of the responsible congressional culprits, we could change it relatively easily.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:23:28 AM EDT
I'm glade it was extended and hope it will become permanent.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:23:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:25:08 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:27:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:43:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By hardcorps1775:

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
I guess it beats the permanent extension called for.



There are people on this board who tell me I do not understand how the US works. Apparently, your consitution and legal systems means this sort of Act cannot be lawful in the US, only in 'Euro' countries with 'subjects'....

ANdy


hahahaha touche!

they can pass it but whether or not it would stand would depend on the courts (and i'm pretty damn sure it would end up there sooner or later). also, with enough public outrage and resultant expulsion of the responsible congressional culprits, we could change it relatively easily.



But is the general public outraged?.... sheeple are the same the world over, tell them it's there to keep them safe and they will buy into anything.

ANdy



Except that the PA does not remove any liberites we enjoyed prior to its passage. Warrants are still needed. People charged under the PA get a trial by jury. etc.

All the rest is pure fear mongering by people who have not READ the Patriot Act.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:48:01 AM EDT
It remains a VERY dangerous double-edged sword. Although I agree some aspects of it are extremely valuable in keeping in step and ahead of our enemies, the longer a "temporary" invasion of privacy is kept in place, the more likely it is to be abused.

Vigilance is the key.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:48:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 4:49:22 AM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:18:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bubblehead597: It remains a VERY dangerous double-edged sword. Although I agree some aspects of it are extremely valuable in keeping in step and ahead of our enemies, the longer a "temporary" invasion of privacy is kept in place, the more likely it is to be abused. Vigilance is the key.
Exactly. We've got an election year coming up and the Patriot Act will be on people's mind when it's time to vote. But I think it will work in favor of the GOP because the Democraps don't have anything better to offer.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:28:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
I guess it beats the permanent extension called for.



There are people on this board who tell me I do not understand how the US works. Apparently, your consitution and legal systems means this sort of Act cannot be lawful in the US, only in 'Euro' countries with 'subjects'....


ANdy



This would be correct, IF our constitution was worth the paper that it is written on. Unfortunately, our constitution is nothing more than a museum piece.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:41:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 6:43:21 AM EDT by motown_steve]

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:

Except that the PA does not remove any liberites we enjoyed prior to its passage. Warrants are still needed. People charged under the PA get a trial by jury. etc.

All the rest is pure fear mongering by people who have not READ the Patriot Act.



That's not entirely accurate.

The Patriot Act grants governmental agencies which were previously prohibited from monitoring US citizens (like the CIA) authority to do so. Also, it allows the government to obtain warrants (which have virtually NO standards for burden of proof) for investigative methods which were previously restricted to very specific crimes ("sneak and peaks", record siezures from EVERYONE that you do ANY business with, Pen Register devices, etc.) as long as they are under the guise of "terrorism" investigations . Lastly, there is no real definition of what a "terrorist" is, so there is really no restriction on who the government can investigate. Any future administration that determines that WE are terrorists can turn the USAPatriot Act on us.

Freedom has risks, and in today's world one of those risks is that we may be somewhat vulnerable to terrorists.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:20:11 AM EDT
Just another step towards a complete Police State.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:20:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:

Except that the PA does not remove any liberites we enjoyed prior to its passage. Warrants are still needed. People charged under the PA get a trial by jury. etc.

All the rest is pure fear mongering by people who have not READ the Patriot Act.



That's not entirely accurate.

The Patriot Act grants governmental agencies which were previously prohibited from monitoring US citizens (like the CIA) authority to do so. Also, it allows the government to obtain warrants (which have virtually NO standards for burden of proof) for investigative methods which were previously restricted to very specific crimes ("sneak and peaks", record siezures from EVERYONE that you do ANY business with, Pen Register devices, etc.) as long as they are under the guise of "terrorism" investigations . Lastly, there is no real definition of what a "terrorist" is, so there is really no restriction on who the government can investigate. Any future administration that determines that WE are terrorists can turn the USAPatriot Act on us.

Freedom has risks, and in today's world one of those risks is that we may be somewhat vulnerable to terrorists.



Not true at all. Patriot Act defines who can be investigated as those who "Are Agents of a Foreign Power." The PA defined non-US terrorist organizations as "foreign powers" under federal law. The tools you mention above can only be used after issuance of a warrant, which requires the same probable cause as prior to the PA. The Patriot Act did not change pre-existing standards for obtaining a warrant.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:28:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
The founding fathers sacrificed blood to preserve liberty. Now the politicians sacrifice liberty to preserve blood. Asshats.



Our founding fathers did not have dirty bombs, chemical and biological agents, and islamohaji fanatics to deal with. That was back in the day of muzzle loaders, not suitcase nukes.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:33:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ClayP:

Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
The founding fathers sacrificed blood to preserve liberty. Now the politicians sacrifice liberty to preserve blood. Asshats.



Our founding fathers did not have dirty bombs, chemical and biological agents, and islamohaji fanatics to deal with. That was back in the day of muzzle loaders, not suitcase nukes.

With that argument it lends creedence to the anti's cry of "Our Founding Fathers didn't have "machine guns" and semi-autos, they had muzzle loaders!"
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:37:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:

Except that the PA does not remove any liberites we enjoyed prior to its passage. Warrants are still needed. People charged under the PA get a trial by jury. etc.

All the rest is pure fear mongering by people who have not READ the Patriot Act.



That's not entirely accurate.

The Patriot Act grants governmental agencies which were previously prohibited from monitoring US citizens (like the CIA) authority to do so. Also, it allows the government to obtain warrants (which have virtually NO standards for burden of proof) for investigative methods which were previously restricted to very specific crimes ("sneak and peaks", record siezures from EVERYONE that you do ANY business with, Pen Register devices, etc.) as long as they are under the guise of "terrorism" investigations . Lastly, there is no real definition of what a "terrorist" is, so there is really no restriction on who the government can investigate. Any future administration that determines that WE are terrorists can turn the USAPatriot Act on us.

Freedom has risks, and in today's world one of those risks is that we may be somewhat vulnerable to terrorists.



Not true at all. Patriot Act defines who can be investigated as those who "Are Agents of a Foreign Power." The PA defined non-US terrorist organizations as "foreign powers" under federal law. The tools you mention above can only be used after issuance of a warrant, which requires the same probable cause as prior to the PA. The Patriot Act did not change pre-existing standards for obtaining a warrant.



No, you are wrong.

Example:

Section 214 PEN REGISTER AND TRAP AND TRACE AUTHORITY UNDER FISA.

(a)APPLICATIONS AND ORDERS- Section 402 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1842) is amended--

1) in subsection (a)(1), by striking `for any investigation to gather foreign intelligence information or information concerning international terrorism' and inserting `for any investigation to obtain foreign intelligence information not concerning a United States person or to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities, provided that such investigation of a United States person is not conducted solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution';

(2) by amending subsection (c)(2) to read as follows:

`(2) a certification by the applicant that the information likely to be obtained is foreign intelligence information not concerning a United States person or is relevant to an ongoing investigation to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities, provided that such investigation of a United States person is not conducted solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution.';

(3) by striking subsection (c)(3); and

(4) by amending subsection (d)(2)(A) to read as follows:

`(A) shall specify--
`(i) the identity, if known, of the person who is the subject of the investigation;
`(ii) the identity, if known, of the person to whom is leased or in whose name is listed the telephone line or other facility to which the pen register or trap and trace device is to be attached or applied;
`(iii) the attributes of the communications to which the order applies, such as the number or other identifier, and, if known, the location of the telephone line or other facility to which the pen register or trap and trace device is to be attached or applied and, in the case of a trap and trace device, the geographic limits of the trap and trace order.'.


This one example allows the government to place a pen register and/or trap device on the phone line of any American, and all that they have to tell the judge is "we think he's a spy/terrorist".
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:39:48 AM EDT
And when they came for me there was no one left to protest...
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:48:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 7:53:24 AM EDT by motown_steve]
Here's another nice one:

`SEC. 501. ACCESS TO CERTAIN BUSINESS RECORDS FOR FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE AND INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM INVESTIGATIONS.
`(a)(1) The Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation or a designee of the Director (whose rank shall be no lower than Assistant Special Agent in Charge) may make an application for an order requiring the production of any tangible things (including books, records, papers, documents, and other items) for an investigation to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities, provided that such investigation of a United States person is not conducted solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution.

`(2) An investigation conducted under this section shall--

`(A) be conducted under guidelines approved by the Attorney General under Executive Order 12333 (or a successor order); and
`(B) not be conducted of a United States person solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
`(b) Each application under this section--

`(1) shall be made to--
`(A) a judge of the court established by section 103(a); or

`(B) a United States Magistrate Judge under chapter 43 of title 28, United States Code, who is publicly designated by the Chief Justice of the United States to have the power to hear applications and grant orders for the production of tangible things under this section on behalf of a judge of that court; and

`(2) shall specify that the records concerned are sought for an authorized investigation conducted in accordance with subsection (a)(2) to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities.
`(c)(1) Upon an application made pursuant to this section, the judge shall enter an ex parte order as requested, or as modified, approving the release of records if the judge finds that the application meets the requirements of this section.

`(2) An order under this subsection shall not disclose that it is issued for purposes of an investigation described in subsection (a).

`(d) No person shall disclose to any other person (other than those persons necessary to produce the tangible things under this section) that the Federal Bureau of Investigation has sought or obtained tangible things under this section.

`(e) A person who, in good faith, produces tangible things under an order pursuant to this section shall not be liable to any other person for such production. Such production shall not be deemed to constitute a waiver of any privilege in any other proceeding or context.

FBI Agent: "Your honor, we think that So-n-so is a terrorist/spy. Here is a warrant listing what we want."

Judge:"OK, you've listed what you wanted and you've specified that it is for a terrorism investigation so the requirements are met. Here you go."

Next thing you know the FBI has your bank, cell phone, credit card, hotel and airline reservation records. But hey, if you don't have anything to hide then what are you afraid of right?
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 8:09:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 8:10:03 AM EDT by elkmontarms]
QUOTE"Our founding fathers did not have dirty bombs, chemical and biological agents, and islamohaji fanatics to deal with. That was back in the day of muzzle loaders, not suitcase nukes."

Don't fall for all that hype. The war on terror is a complete joke when our own Country still has open borders and an est. 15 to20 million illegals running around.

All these new laws and acts are or will be used on US citizens not terrorists in the future. Think of how these laws will be used against us in the future if a Hillary type gets into office. Who will be the next terrorist group A Qeudia, Arabs? or ,Gun Owners, NRA Members, AR15.com users?

When the President get serious about closing the Border and doing the right thing then I would agree that they are taking a serious view about the so called war on terror.

All this so called war on terror has done is get a lot of US Soliders killed and injured, screwed our national budget and attacked our rights. When they get serious about defending the US with the laws already on the books I will go along with this so called war on terror.

Before a bunch of you attack me and cal me a lib you need to know that I am a die hard real Republician, NRA life Member, AF Vet and a current FFL business owner and I can't stand what Bush and many Elected officals are doing to our Country. He had the Dems by the balls with a Rep congress and he blew it big time.

It just kills me how so many of you can still suppport this guy and call yourself 2nd Adm or Civil Rights defenders. Bush could be on the White House lawn beheading handicap children and some of you will come up with a reason to defend him.

I fear for our future if another Bush or Hillary type get into office in 2008. Our only chance is a miracle election win for a guy with the ideas like Ron Paul or Larry Craig, these are real Republicans.
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