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Posted: 12/20/2005 4:48:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 4:48:56 PM EDT by Red_Beard]
move to Canada

www.onthefencefilms.com/video/deadmeat/





Dead Meat is a 25 minute short film which shows the reality of health care under Canada's socialized medical system: Canadians wait ... and wait ... and wait. ... And sometimes they die while waiting for free government health care.

The filmmakers are currently in production on a feature-length film addressing health care in the U.S. and Canada slated for release in late 2006. As an interim offering, they have produced this short film which debuted at the Liberty Film Festival in West Hollywood, CA on Oct 21, 2005. We hope you enjoy it!



Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:42:56 PM EDT
will never get any coverage here.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:08:52 PM EDT
But, they have free healthcare.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:15:57 PM EDT
Waiting is better than not getting it at all.z
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:16:24 PM EDT
You should get what you pay for. Healthcare is not a right, its a luxury and people who work hard and earn it should have the best.

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:18:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
You should get what you pay for. Healthcare is not a right, its a luxury and people who work hard and earn it should have the best.




I completely agree.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:21:45 PM EDT
tagarino
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:24:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
But, they have free healthcare.



Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:25:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By zoom:
Waiting is better than not getting it at all.z



And dying on a waiting list is 'not getting it at all'.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:30:26 PM EDT
We have free health care as well if you truly need. Only we arent fucking looney canooks. Cash is king.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:36:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
But, they have free healthcare.






But, they have free healthcare.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:36:19 PM EDT
I would want to be able to choose when/where to get treatment and pay who ever I want. Government has no business in health care.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:42:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
But, they have free healthcare.






But, they have free healthcare.



It's not free.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:44:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
But, they have free healthcare.






But, they have free healthcare paid for by other people who would put it to a better use.

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:45:20 PM EDT
Our healthcare sucks so bad, you have to wonder why so many mexicans come here to use it and canucks pay for it.

There are large billboards on the border between Detroit and Windsor advertising American Hospitals. Its kind of funny because the worst hospitals in Detroit are 100% better the best in Canada.

Also there are no incentives to find new treatments and perform research. We are so fucking buttfucked paying for the worlds R and D in medicine.

Canada's system would also fail if the US was not there to pick up the slack.

Over 50% of the nurses at the hospitals that I work at are Canadian. The best come to the US to work and tell the Canadian government to fuck themselves.

Many Canadian doctors, again the best are working the US as well. C-4 is one. Why work for less then what a factory worker makes? Doesnt make sense. They will eventually run out of doctors.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:45:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
But, they have free healthcare.






But, they have free healthcare.



Stop being 'simpleminded'.


Originally Posted By drjarhead:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
But, they have free healthcare.






But, they have free healthcare.



It's not free.



What he ^^^ said.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:47:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
But, they have free healthcare.






But, they have free healthcare.



Stop being 'simpleminded'.


Originally Posted By drjarhead:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
But, they have free healthcare.






But, they have free healthcare.



It's not free.



What he ^^^ said.



Hear of the GST, Eh?
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:50:01 PM EDT
This whole system scares me.

My mom was told in April she needed knee surgery. She had it at the end of August. She is going to have a second one at the end of this month.

I certainly don't know what I'd do, or she'd do, for that matter, if she had to wait 2 years for a knee replacment.

There are NO winners here.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:52:56 PM EDT
Waiting is something Americans are not good at. Lawsuits would descend like locusts onto a cornfield and devour everything in sight. Imagine what would happen if a child died of cancer waiting for a surgery? Even the libtard media would have a field day.

There needs to be a free market system or it will fail.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:54:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
Waiting is something Americans are not good at. Lawsuits would descend like locusts onto a cornfield and devour everything in sight. Imagine what would happen if a child died of cancer waiting for a surgery? Even the libtard media would have a field day.

There needs to be a free market system or it will fail.


Agreed.

Or what about an organ transplant-It takes, what, 2 years or more to get a transplant here? I shudder to think what would it take over in Canada.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:55:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
Hear of the GST, Eh?



GST? Shit, the list of taxes they have in Canada is endless. Most people forget that I'm from there and that I've lived through their shit healthcare system. There are many things they don't pay for and what they claim to pay for requires long wait lines. If you're waiting for cardiac bipass surgery you are going to die waiting for it.

The healthcare cost has spiraled out of control and their solution this past year, in addition to all their taxes, was to create yet another "Health Insurance Tax". So now you have to pay a yearly premium for the supposedly 'free healthcare' you were already paying for with your other taxes. Yet the Socialists and Communists here keep pushing for 'free healthcare' in the U.S.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:57:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By deej86:
This whole system scares me.

My mom was told in April she needed knee surgery. She had it at the end of August. She is going to have a second one at the end of this month.

I certainly don't know what I'd do, or she'd do, for that matter, if she had to wait 2 years for a knee replacment.

There are NO winners here.



A personal friend of the family in Canada cashed out part of his RRSP (Registered Retirement Savings Plan like our 401K plan here) to get shoulder surgery in the U.S. because of the long wait time in Canada.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 8:00:57 PM EDT
Those here who are screaming for freehealth care are really being duped by the people in the democratic party and the looney left. They may act like that give a shit about your situation, but really all they want is power.

Giving the government control over health care takes away the power of the individual. This is next step in squeezing out those who are in favor of liberty and those who wish to have more power in the state.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 8:02:29 PM EDT
I live about 40 miles from the Can-Am border and see a lot of Canadians in town going to the local doctors and the hospital. You know, the American doctors and hospitals, that well, like to be paid for services rendered. Seems that a lot of Canadians don't like the wait and don't like the service when they finally get in.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 8:08:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:
Those here who are screaming for freehealth care are really being duped by the people in the democratic party and the looney left. They may act like that give a shit about your situation, but really all they want is power.

Giving the government control over health care takes away the power of the individual. This is next step in squeezing out those who are in favor of liberty and those who wish to have more power in the state.



And it is a LOT of power.

They try to convince people that it will be free as if they are parents telling their 4 year old about Sant Claus, or the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy. Or even better, the money tree.

Or I suppose they'll just tell them we can just print more money.
Hey, the Sheeple are stupid, just tell them what they want to hear. By the time they realize the mistake it will be way too late.

And then they'll will take the "free" health care away form productive members of society and only give it to their own constituency. Not like they haven't done that before.

I'm glad I'm done with it. Good luck to ARDOC and C4. Though I suppose they can both go to Canada and practice after that!
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 8:14:22 PM EDT
I'm with PJ O'Rourk on this one: If you think healthcare is expensive now, just wait until its "free" !
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 8:15:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 8:20:51 PM EDT by AFARR]
Talked to a Canadian citizen (Podiatry Student) came here for an interview.

Came to the US for school.

Will remain after graduating...even though in Podiatry, some services are covered under the Nat'l Healthcare system, some are cash pay (so Podiatrists in Cdn. make fairly good money compared to other Doctors).

When the Dr. has to go to 4 years College, 4 Years Med School and a 3-5+ year residency, and then makes a flat salary (not paid very well in comparison to other professional fields) with no incentives to increase their income, it is no wonder the system is flawed. Doctors in Canada have a certain # of patient contacts they are required to have (i.e. "office" appointments)--once they reach that #, they don't have to work anymore. (A bit oversimplified, but that is how the system basically works).

AFARR

I should add:
I spent my first year of residency working in a "Free" clinic--gov.county.org paid (patients actually got a bill, but it was through the county healthcare system, so most went unpaid). Our clinic was always overbooked. Many of the other clinics capped out their appointments...once you reached 40 for the day, the day was over. Try getting a basic medical appointment for Family Practice or Internal Med...3-4 month wait. The orthopods had a 3+ year wait on Knee replacements. The system there was already overloaded...and getting worse.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 8:16:51 PM EDT
Thanks for posting that.


How about a Socialized system that is outsourced to companies as opposed to run by gov?
How do you streamline bereaucrasy? Getting the gov out of it seems a good start, your thoughts?
Are the waiting list due to demand or insufficient #s of Doctors?
Multiply the population 10X and you have us, so obviously thier system cannot work?
Competition is a good motivator, how do you do it in Socialist based healthcare model?
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 8:20:14 PM EDT
taggo
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 8:26:43 PM EDT

Are the waiting list due to demand or insufficient #s of Doctors?


Mattl:

See my post above--no financial incentive, why should the Doctors work any harder than they are obligated? And, even with the Medicaid programs (poor people rather than the older people covered under Medicare) today--the system is abused. They can walk into the Dr's office (or even better into the ER) for something that someone would normally just go to the drugstore and take care of themselves (cold medicine, athletes foot cream) and not have to pay anything. The office visit fee from Medicaid doesn't even cover the paperwork time--let alone the doctor's normal fee.

You haven't experienced it until you have had a patient ask for a prescription for F*cking BANDAIDS!! Because with a prescription, it is covered under their Medicaid program.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 8:27:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mattl:
Thanks for posting that.


How about a Socialized system that is outsourced to companies as opposed to run by gov?



That's what is going on now in the form of Medicare and Medicaid. It is straining the system and increasing our taxes. The .gov mandates the reimbursement and you have no choice. Medicare pays 43% of what we bill.
And a large part of the problem is gov't bureacracy sticking its nose in all of it which has significantly increased administrative costs which has been the largest portion of medical services to increase. The gov't has thoroughly fucked things up. A lot of it happened during the Clinton Administration when they basically declared war on docs.
Another fine example is the VA System. FUBAR.


How do you streamline bereaucrasy? Getting the gov out of it seems a good start, your thoughts?


As above.
How do you get the gov't out of socialized anything. Sort of an oxymoron.


Are the waiting list due to demand or insufficient #s of Doctors?


Insufficient everything.


Multiply the population 10X and you have us, so obviously thier system cannot work?


It might run, but it wouldn't be very good. People sure wouldn't like what they got for healthcare.


Competition is a good motivator, how do you do it in Socialist based healthcare model?



They could just limit reimbursement as they do in gov't run healthcare programs now. And that's what they would do. I see a lot of docs retiring early and a lot of bright young people doing other things. The middle age ones might stick it out for awhile and there would continue to be young docs coming in until everyone realized the mess the .gov would create.

I can fix the current system but everyone is selfish so there would be no agreement.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 8:44:04 PM EDT
Its going to come to a head sooner or later here as well. Its amazing that people will come into the office with medicaid and say they have insurance since its adminstered by an HMO.

All that means is that the reimbursement is even less then for a normal medicaid patient.

Only in healthcare can you go to a store buy a candy bar marked $1 pay $.40 and leave without getting arrested. If you tried that at a 7-11 you would get arrested for shoplifting.

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 11:34:38 PM EDT
anybody that thinks 'free' healthcare is in any way, shape, or form a good thing needs to have their head examined.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 11:40:16 PM EDT
Red Beard's avatar has been on the Canadian waiting list for some time now.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 12:10:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
Waiting is something Americans are not good at. Lawsuits would descend like locusts onto a cornfield and devour everything in sight. Imagine what would happen if a child died of cancer waiting for a surgery? Even the libtard media would have a field day.

There needs to be a free market system or it will fail.



Probably not, because this situation will be anticipated and the course of action will be to make the system immune to civil suits. THat would probably be the only good to come about from it: watching the ambulance chasers freak out.

Additionally, to all those who are in favor of socialized healthcare. You may think it's a good idea, until you have to pay for the two-pack-a-day smoker's heart-lung transplant.

Food for thought: Social healthcare will be the death of the RKBA. Tax dollars spent on treating gunshot victims will be used as leverage to get conservatives to agree to more gun control in the name of reducing medical spending and therefore reducing taxes. Put that in a syringe and inject it.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 12:30:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AFARR:
Talked to a Canadian citizen (Podiatry Student) came here for an interview.

Came to the US for school.

Will remain after graduating...even though in Podiatry, some services are covered under the Nat'l Healthcare system, some are cash pay (so Podiatrists in Cdn. make fairly good money compared to other Doctors).

When the Dr. has to go to 4 years College, 4 Years Med School and a 3-5+ year residency, and then makes a flat salary (not paid very well in comparison to other professional fields) with no incentives to increase their income, it is no wonder the system is flawed. Doctors in Canada have a certain # of patient contacts they are required to have (i.e. "office" appointments)--once they reach that #, they don't have to work anymore. (A bit oversimplified, but that is how the system basically works).

AFARR




Sounds similar to the British healthcare system. I remember hearing a while back about British patients on waiting lists for treatment basically being told to go home and die.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 4:25:50 AM EDT
People will think its a good idea until the waits start and medical treatment advances come to a standstill.

Link Posted: 12/21/2005 8:42:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PromptCritical:


Probably not, because this situation will be anticipated and the course of action will be to make the system immune to civil suits. THat would probably be the only good to come about from it: watching the ambulance chasers freak out.




I disagree. The System may be immune but docs will still get sued.

You really need to have compassion for the 28yo crack ho with 6 kids, all with different last names. There has to be a way for her to play the lottery and she is busy spending her money on other necessities - booze, crack, clothes and makeup.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 8:45:25 AM EDT
tag for when I get home from work.


Speed
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 8:53:41 AM EDT
Here's my question:

How is "emergency" healthcare dealt with over there?

Hypothetical example: You just recieved a critical GSW...you're gonna die if you don't get treatment(including surgery) RIGHT NOW. Do they make these people wait too?
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 12:28:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By deej86:
Here's my question:

How is "emergency" healthcare dealt with over there?

Hypothetical example: You just recieved a critical GSW...you're gonna die if you don't get treatment(including surgery) RIGHT NOW. Do they make these people wait too?



Don't worry, I'm sure gang-bangers get head of the line privileges...
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 12:33:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PromptCritical:

Originally Posted By deej86:
Here's my question:

How is "emergency" healthcare dealt with over there?

Hypothetical example: You just recieved a critical GSW...you're gonna die if you don't get treatment(including surgery) RIGHT NOW. Do they make these people wait too?



Don't worry, I'm sure gang-bangers get head of the line privileges...


Never mentioned anything about gang-bangers. But if you needed medical care immediately, whether it was a critical GSW, or a broken leg...what would happen?
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 12:46:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
You should get what you pay for. Healthcare is not a right, its a luxury and people who work hard and earn it should have the best.




a +1 and another +1 for common sense.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 12:55:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By deej86:

Originally Posted By PromptCritical:

Originally Posted By deej86:
Here's my question:

How is "emergency" healthcare dealt with over there?

Hypothetical example: You just recieved a critical GSW...you're gonna die if you don't get treatment(including surgery) RIGHT NOW. Do they make these people wait too?



Don't worry, I'm sure gang-bangers get head of the line privileges...


Never mentioned anything about gang-bangers. But if you needed medical care immediately, whether it was a critical GSW, or a broken leg...what would happen?



That was a bit off topic. I figure emergency room care won't be affected much, as long as they have proper staffing and funding. I doubt the quality will improve much, probably the opposite, but the speed at which you are seen will probably be comparable to how hospitals are now.

The wait will come when needing followup care after the initial ER visit...
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 1:01:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PromptCritical:

Originally Posted By deej86:

Originally Posted By PromptCritical:

Originally Posted By deej86:
Here's my question:

How is "emergency" healthcare dealt with over there?

Hypothetical example: You just recieved a critical GSW...you're gonna die if you don't get treatment(including surgery) RIGHT NOW. Do they make these people wait too?



Don't worry, I'm sure gang-bangers get head of the line privileges...


Never mentioned anything about gang-bangers. But if you needed medical care immediately, whether it was a critical GSW, or a broken leg...what would happen?



That was a bit off topic. I figure emergency room care won't be affected much, as long as they have proper staffing and funding. I doubt the quality will improve much, probably the opposite, but the speed at which you are seen will probably be comparable to how hospitals are now.

The wait will come when needing followup care after the initial ER visit...


Let me change my example...If you recieved a critical GSW...that paralyzed you permanently, you'd have to wait to get whatever therapy you'd need?
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 2:29:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
Its going to come to a head sooner or later here as well. Its amazing that people will come into the office with medicaid and say they have insurance since its adminstered by an HMO.

All that means is that the reimbursement is even less then for a normal medicaid patient.

Only in healthcare can you go to a store buy a candy bar marked $1 pay $.40 and leave without getting arrested. If you tried that at a 7-11 you would get arrested for shoplifting.




Stop it, you guys are depressing me.

I should have gone to law school

(just kidding about law school)
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 2:32:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PromptCritical:
Food for thought: Social healthcare will be the death of the RKBA. Tax dollars spent on treating gunshot victims will be used as leverage to get conservatives to agree to more gun control in the name of reducing medical spending and therefore reducing taxes. Put that in a syringe and inject it.



They are ALREADY using the social healthcare argument (basically federal law says anyone who comes into an ER must be treated regardless of ability to pay) to justify seatbelt laws and motorcycle helmet laws.

I flatly reject all government-funded healthcare for many reasons but if for no other reason than it simply creates a slippery slope whereby social engineers can justify any kind of regulation (seatbelt law, gun regulation, etc.) by simply saying it will decrease healthcare costs if we implement measure x.



NB: I always wear my seatbelt.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 2:58:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2005 2:59:19 PM EDT by lu380]

Originally Posted By jblachly:

Originally Posted By PromptCritical:
Food for thought: Social healthcare will be the death of the RKBA. Tax dollars spent on treating gunshot victims will be used as leverage to get conservatives to agree to more gun control in the name of reducing medical spending and therefore reducing taxes. Put that in a syringe and inject it.



They are ALREADY using the social healthcare argument (basically federal law says anyone who comes into an ER must be treated regardless of ability to pay) to justify seatbelt laws and motorcycle helmet laws.

I flatly reject all government-funded healthcare for many reasons but if for no other reason than it simply creates a slippery slope whereby social engineers can justify any kind of regulation (seatbelt law, gun regulation, etc.) by simply saying it will decrease healthcare costs if we implement measure x.



NB: I always wear my seatbelt.



You stole my thunder. It could even go as far as outlawing table salt because of the hypertension problems it might cause. Watch "Demolition Man", it's the logical conclusion of the direction social engineering is taking us.

Link Posted: 12/21/2005 3:00:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2005 3:06:46 PM EDT by drjarhead]

Originally Posted By jblachly:

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
Its going to come to a head sooner or later here as well. Its amazing that people will come into the office with medicaid and say they have insurance since its adminstered by an HMO.

All that means is that the reimbursement is even less then for a normal medicaid patient.

Only in healthcare can you go to a store buy a candy bar marked $1 pay $.40 and leave without getting arrested. If you tried that at a 7-11 you would get arrested for shoplifting.




Stop it, you guys are depressing me.

I should have gone to law school

(just kidding about law school)



Not all attorneys are bad.

Did I just say that?



If I had it to do over I would never go into medicine again. I'd think about engineering for sure.
My greatest regret in life is turning down a spot at Annapolis. Huge mistake.

My youngest, son, just finished his first semester in engineering school, FWIW.

Jblachly,
Don't do primary care. Go for the bucks. You will probably have a better lifestyle and if you want to get out you will be able to retire early.

Radiology is the route to go if you ask me. Good hours, great money. No welfare crack hos spewing their crap all over you and bitching at you at the same time. None of their ODD brats that some administrative assbag is telling you to kiss the ass of. Seriously, give careful thought to your choice of speciality.

Maybe you'll like it better than me, but if you're here, I doubt it.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 3:04:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lu380:

Originally Posted By jblachly:

Originally Posted By PromptCritical:
Food for thought: Social healthcare will be the death of the RKBA. Tax dollars spent on treating gunshot victims will be used as leverage to get conservatives to agree to more gun control in the name of reducing medical spending and therefore reducing taxes. Put that in a syringe and inject it.



They are ALREADY using the social healthcare argument (basically federal law says anyone who comes into an ER must be treated regardless of ability to pay) to justify seatbelt laws and motorcycle helmet laws.

I flatly reject all government-funded healthcare for many reasons but if for no other reason than it simply creates a slippery slope whereby social engineers can justify any kind of regulation (seatbelt law, gun regulation, etc.) by simply saying it will decrease healthcare costs if we implement measure x.



NB: I always wear my seatbelt.



You stole my thunder. It could even go as far as outlawing table salt because of the hypertension problems it might cause. Watch "Demolition Man", it's the logical conclusion of the direction social engineering is taking us.




The effect of salt on hypertension is grossly overblown IMO.

Just a FWIW.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 5:15:29 PM EDT
tag.
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