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Posted: 12/18/2005 12:58:35 AM EDT
There is an interesting read in Feb06 Guns and Weapons magazine about LEO who get shot with their own sidearms and case by case tragedy. There is also cases in which the only thing that saved the LEO's life was a back up piece, everything from a sig 380 to an S&W airweight snubby ( more snubbys then semi's for back up though). On the informative side is a review of hostlers that help prevent such tragedies like the blackhawk Sepa, Desantis Chek-mate and Bianchi carrylock.
It is a growing trend of LE being overwhelmed and relieved of their sidearm only to be shot by the perp. Cases 2,3,&4 were in the same state and department. Is it a lack of traing? Some of the victims were rookies but a few were vets. I hope no LEO have to experience this and I was just wondering do the LEO here carry back-ups and if so what and what caliber?
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 1:07:25 AM EDT
It is a sad trend. Most of it is due to lack of training.

The PD I was helping with only allowed 5hrs of weapons rentention training. Just a little over that for PPCT and PR-24/ASP. Some of the cadets/officers kept comming to me to help keep up their training/skills/reflexes but once they swithced to deep nights or oddball shifts all that training was quickly lost. IMHO those are skills that should not be forsaken and should be kept sharp.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 2:48:04 AM EDT
I know a lot of people in LE may not think too highly of this idea, but it bears some consideration. The anti-gunners has been advocating guns that only the authorized person can fire, this could be the ticket. If someone grabs a police officer's gun and attempts to shoot him with it, nothing will happen.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 4:36:11 AM EDT
The last thing I want to do is trust my life with computer technology built into something that sees a wide variety of cimate conditions and sharp recoil. All shooter recognition programs, so far, have not been able to hold up to gun recoil and cimate conditions.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 4:42:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By warlord:
I know a lot of people in LE may not think too highly of this idea, but it bears some consideration. The anti-gunners has been advocating guns that only the authorized person can fire, this could be the ticket. If someone grabs a police officer's gun and attempts to shoot him with it, nothing will happen.



That sounds all well and good...

But the states that have proposed this type of legislation specifically excempt LE from having to use the technology.

The problem can be solved with training. Technology is not a substitute for tactics.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 4:45:52 AM EDT
My cousin was shot with his own (duty) gun.

We can only call it "lack of training" after the fact.

The perp was against the car being frisked for an arrest, when in an instant, he turned and tackled "Joe"

In the ensuing fight, perp gets Joe's gun out and while fighting for control, it fires putting a round thru Joe's leg. Perp raises up, levels the gun at Joe's head (while Joe is on the ground and perp standing over him).

Only the intervention of a few bystanders screaming "NO! DON'T DO IT" did it not end really tragic

Perp steals squad car, statewide man hunt finally catches the MF-er.

Could have been sooooo much worse.

Changed Joe forever.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 4:56:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By redfisher:
My cousin was shot with his own (duty) gun.

We can only call it "lack of training" after the fact.

The perp was against the car being frisked for an arrest, when in an instant, he turned and tackled "Joe"

In the ensuing fight, perp gets Joe's gun out and while fighting for control, it fires putting a round thru Joe's leg. Perp raises up, levels the gun at Joe's head (while Joe is on the ground and perp standing over him).

Only the intervention of a few bystanders screaming "NO! DON'T DO IT" did it not end really tragic

Perp steals squad car, statewide man hunt finally catches the MF-er.

Could have been sooooo much worse.

Changed Joe forever.



Holy shiiiiiit!

I'm glad your cousin is ok. To bad they didn't kill the shithead that shot him.

One thing that I have seen is that there are a lot of people who are much bigger and stronger than the cop arresting them. When I was a regular Army MP I weighed a woping 150 lbs. But then again ALWAYS called and waited for backup in that kind of situation if I didn't have a partner.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 5:07:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 5:08:35 AM EDT
Every situation you ever go into is a "gun call". You brought it with you. I've had to fight for mine a number of times. One incident the guy yanked on the gun so hard he pulled the rivets out of the leather. My personal method for handling this sort of attack is to go for the eyes and blind the SOB.

As for the "revolver vs snubby" backup thing, that's going to be regional. Snubbies are very popular on the east coast and up north for some reason. I don't know a single officer that carries one here.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 5:21:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By COZ:

Originally Posted By redfisher:
My cousin was shot with his own (duty) gun.

We can only call it "lack of training" after the fact.

The perp was against the car being frisked for an arrest, when in an instant, he turned and tackled "Joe"

In the ensuing fight, perp gets Joe's gun out and while fighting for control, it fires putting a round thru Joe's leg. Perp raises up, levels the gun at Joe's head (while Joe is on the ground and perp standing over him).

Only the intervention of a few bystanders screaming "NO! DON'T DO IT" did it not end really tragic

Perp steals squad car, statewide man hunt finally catches the MF-er.

Could have been sooooo much worse.

Changed Joe forever.



Holy shiiiiiit!

I'm glad your cousin is ok. To bad they didn't kill the shithead that shot him.

One thing that I have seen is that there are a lot of people who are much bigger and stronger than the cop arresting them. When I was a regular Army MP I weighed a woping 150 lbs. But then again ALWAYS called and waited for backup in that kind of situation if I didn't have a partner.



Good point, COZ

In hindsight these things are clear to us, and I think that is the lesson here.

What was to be a routine traffic stop turned out to be anything but.

Would a back-up gun have changed things? Probably not.

But when it was determined the perp was wanted, Joe should have handled it differently.


In an incredible case of coincidence...............

His wife, an Alcohol /Drug enforcement officer (ABC related in NC) was involved in a similar shooting

She and another officer were questioning a guy on a bicycle about a drug deal when he pulled a gun and in the ensuing struggle to disarm him he ended up on her chest pointing the gun at her face

Long story short, her partner put 2 x .45's in the guy and killed him

That shooting is still under investigation, as the local NAACP is claiming the perp was "executed"
(This just happened in September I think . In the last couple months anyway. Her husband -Joe- his shooting was in 1989)

Scary stuff.

Especially given the area is near Winston-Salem NC, and not what you would imagine being crime ridden and drug infested.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 5:25:03 AM EDT
Too bad the officers weren't carrying H&K squeezecockers. No officer carrying one of these has ever been shot by his own duty weapon.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 5:28:47 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 5:33:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2005 5:45:11 AM EDT by jrzy]

Originally Posted By 1pistola:
There is an interesting read in Feb06 Guns and Weapons magazine about LEO who get shot with their own sidearms and case by case tragedy. There is also cases in which the only thing that saved the LEO's life was a back up piece, everything from a sig 380 to an S&W airweight snubby ( more snubbys then semi's for back up though). On the informative side is a review of hostlers that help prevent such tragedies like the blackhawk Sepa, Desantis Chek-mate and Bianchi carrylock.
It is a growing trend of LE being overwhelmed and relieved of their sidearm only to be shot by the perp. Cases 2,3,&4 were in the same state and department. Is it a lack of traing? Some of the victims were rookies but a few were vets. I hope no LEO have to experience this and I was just wondering do the LEO here carry back-ups and if so what and what caliber?



In a town in jersey in the span of two years two officers were disarmed , one shot with his own 357 and the other officer was disarmed by two junkies on the steps of a church and they ran off with his revolver and sold it for dope money.

The first officer Was Greg Turner, he was struggling with the suspect and the perp grabbed the butt of his 357, the holster was one of the first with a safety of sorts and the safety held but the stitching ripped and the gun came free.
The perp chased Greg around the patrol car three times aiming the S&W at Greg, he finally got of a clean shot (two other rds fired missed) and hit Greg in the shoulder.
He recovered from the wound but his career was over due to the massive damage to his shoulder.
The perp died from AIDS in prison 12 years later.

The second officer never drew his weapon even after seeing the two junkies approach him at 1 in the morning?
He allowed them to get close enough to take his gun away.
He resigned a short time later.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 7:04:34 AM EDT
Action beats reaction. The bad guy knows what action hes going to take, and the officer involved doesn't take standard officer safety precautions that, when utilized by other officers, routinely gets them labelled as JBTs by some people here on AR15 and elsewhere on the net.
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