Quoted: I thought Peter Jackson's interpretation of the Battle of Helm's deep was better than the original.

I don't. I thought that the retreat from the westfold and the battle in the book was much more dramatic than the movie.

I also thought that Jackson's portrayal of the Ents not wanting to go to war with Isengard was lame as well. The Ents were furious with Saruman over the destruction of the forests and there was no real reluctance on their part to go to war. Their ways were slow and methodical, and the entmoot did last a long time but they did not need additional prodding to do what they knew needed to be done.

And Faramir was never tempted to take the ring from Frodo. He didn't try and bring Frodo back to Osgiliath or Minas Tirith with the ring. Faramir was a man of stronger character than Boramir and his purity, courage and strength came out in the book. Unlike the movie where Faramir was an uncertain panzy with low self esteem who desperately wanted his daddy's approval.

The movies were good, but Jackson cheapened alot of the charachters.

Quoted: DocH Sorry, IMHO you are wrong. The book is NOT about the Ring. It is about the restoration of the Kings of Men to their throne and the defeat of Sauron, the ancient enemy. It is a chronicle of the events that caused the Third Age to end, the Elves to finally forsake Middle Earth and the ascent of Man to primacy as the other kindreds fade and are no more. If you are big on the movie, yeah, you might take that idea and run with it being about the Ring. But it is not. IMHO. The Ring is SAURON, it his will and his malice concentrated and forged into an object. It is the power of a mighty denizen of Middle Earth, Sauron the Maia, minion of Morgoth. So, no... it not about false power... the Ring possessed much of the native strength of an angelic being who was indeed mighty... moreso than any remaining on the face of Middle Earth. And again, I say no to your hypothesis that people, other than Saruman the white, lust after the ring for power. Boromir was a mighty captain of his people, and sought for a tool to restore Gondor and defeat Mordor and thereby save his people. He did not wish for the Ring to be cast away and was secure in his pride that he might wield it for the good of all. His problem was his IGNORANCE of the true nature and power contained in the Ring. Moron wanted to dabble with the SPIRIT OF SAURON, and think he could get away with it scot free. Wrong. Anyway, that is my opinion for whatever it is worth. Dram out

That is the vehicle but the books message is more fundamental.

The books are about the little people, the common man personified in Frodo and Sam being able to make a difference… resist and over come profound evil through perseverance, faith, great loss, and love of each other.

Sam is the real hero of the books… His basic faith, strength, loyalty carry the day.

When Jackson left out Bombadil and how Merry got the sword (dagger really) from the Downs out of that tomb was very disappointing. While they were in the Old Forest they learned how some trees were still 'alive' like "Old Man Willow" who tried to eat em, if thats how you wanna describe it.

He also turned Frodo into the biggest pussy in the movie.

Treebeard told the hobbits of the corruption of Middle Earth's creatures into Sauron's servents. Ents to Trolls, Elves to Orks, etc. He also said that Sauron could not create life, but he could corrupt it.

Another thing that really ticked me off was Jackson's portrayal of Faramir. In the book Faramir was not corrupted by the ring. Instead he supplied the hobbits and allowed them to go on their way (well except for that detour to Hennth Annun), rather than taking them to Osgiliath. Jackson constantly showed the weakness of Men rather than showing the strength in some.

Jackson also left out the Knights of Dol Amroth, whose blood was mixed with those of elves. And he also left out the Rangers that joined Aragorn before he set out for the Stone of Erech by the Paths of the Dead. Throughout the movies Jackson made it seem that Gondor and Rohan were alone in their battle against Sauron.

The Scourging of the Shire was something that should have been included into the movies as well. Since all the hardships they endured armed them with the skills they needed to retake their own land from Sharkey (who lived in Bag End no less) and use Galadriel's gift to fix the shire though it took many years.

Sam, Legolas, and Gimli also went 'Into the West' though it wasn't mentioned in the movie. Although that is more understandable, but still disappointing since it tells of the fate of the fellowship. Merry and Pippen were buried next to Aragorn.

All in all the book kicked way more ass than the movie.

Quoted: When Jackson left out Bombadil and how Merry got the sword (dagger really) from the Downs out of that tomb was very disappointing. While they were in the Old Forest they learned how some trees were still 'alive' like "Old Man Willow" who tried to eat em, if thats how you wanna describe it. He also turned Frodo into the biggest pussy in the movie. Treebeard told the hobbits of the corruption of Middle Earth's creatures into Sauron's servents. Ents to Trolls, Elves to Orks, etc. He also said that Sauron could not create life, but he could corrupt it. Another thing that really ticked me off was Jackson's portrayal of Faramir. In the book Faramir was not corrupted by the ring. Instead he supplied the hobbits and allowed them to go on their way (well except for that detour to Hennth Annun), rather than taking them to Osgiliath. Jackson constantly showed the weakness of Men rather than showing the strength in some. Jackson also left out the Knights of Dol Amroth, whose blood was mixed with those of elves. And he also left out the Rangers that joined Aragorn before he set out for the Stone of Erech by the Paths of the Dead. Throughout the movies Jackson made it seem that Gondor and Rohan were alone in their battle against Sauron. The Scourging of the Shire was something that should have been included into the movies as well. Since all the hardships they endured armed them with the skills they needed to retake their own land from Sharkey (who lived in Bag End no less) and use Galadriel's gift to fix the shire though it took many years. Sam, Legolas, and Gimli also went 'Into the West' though it wasn't mentioned in the movie. Although that is more understandable, but still disappointing since it tells of the fate of the fellowship. Merry and Pippen were buried next to Aragorn. All in all the book kicked way more ass than the movie.

Just imagine if all those parts you mention were in the movie.

It just wouldn't work. I do perfer the books to the movie, but I respect the movie for what it was and pretty much had to be to work.

Quoted: Quoted: I thought Peter Jackson's interpretation of the Battle of Helm's deep was better than the original. I don't. I thought that the retreat from the westfold and the battle in the book was much more dramatic than the movie. I also thought that Jackson's portrayal of the Ents not wanting to go to war with Isengard was lame as well. The Ents were furious with Saruman over the destruction of the forests and there was no real reluctance on their part to go to war. Their ways were slow and methodical, and the entmoot did last a long time but they did not need additional prodding to do what they knew needed to be done. And Faramir was never tempted to take the ring from Frodo. He didn't try and bring Frodo back to Osgiliath or Minas Tirith with the ring. Faramir was a man of stronger character than Boramir and his purity, courage and strength came out in the book. Unlike the movie where Faramir was an uncertain panzy with low self esteem who desperately wanted his daddy's approval. The movies were good, but Jackson cheapened alot of the charachters.

I never liked the Ents, and would have been perfectly happy if they had been excluded entirely, along with the stupid Army of the Dead.  One of the major themes of the Lord of the Rings is the strenth inherent in virtue.  Like the Spartans against the Persians in our history, the High Elves and the Men of Numenor were each worth hundreds of orcs, who were pathetic and corrupt forms of life.  What these protagonists needed were leaders to inspire them to great things, which was the original purpose of the Istari.  However, this theme was weakened by the fact that in the books, both epic battles were ultimately decided not by Elves and Men, but by magical intervention in the form of Ents and the Army of the Dead.  I've never liked that part of the books.

I thought Jackson's version of Helm's Deep was better because it had Eomer play the critical role in the battle.  The Ents only did mop-up.  Also, I liked the intervention of the Elves at Helm's Deep - when the evil forces were at their height, rather than the afterthought they seemed to be in the books when they show up only for the last battle before the gates of Mordor.  I thought that the change really emphasized the nobility of the high elves, and their deep and abiding love for middle earth despite the fact that their time on it was limited.

As for the characters, I really didn't see a conflict between the portrayals of Aragorn and Faramir in the movies and in the books.  I saw it more as two perspectives on the same characters.  The Lord of the Rings was written in a high, epic tone.  Of necessity, such a medium will give somewhat one-dimensional views of the characters, and focus almost entirely on their strenghts and accomplishments.  Movies necessarily want to give a more in-depth, human cast to things.  I thought that showing Aragorn with a few moments of weakness - moments he overcame - made him much more powerful.  And while Elrond didn't have to give him Narsil in the books, he did prod him to reclaim his heritage.  Elrond of the books forbade him to marry Arwen unless and until he claimed his throne.  As for Faramir, again he had a moment of weakness with the one ring, but overcame that weakness.  I don't think his actions in the movie in anyway detracted from the strength of his character.

Quoted: Quoted: I thought Peter Jackson's interpretation of the Battle of Helm's deep was better than the original. I don't. I thought that the retreat from the westfold and the battle in the book was much more dramatic than the movie. I also thought that Jackson's portrayal of the Ents not wanting to go to war with Isengard was lame as well. The Ents were furious with Saruman over the destruction of the forests and there was no real reluctance on their part to go to war. Their ways were slow and methodical, and the entmoot did last a long time but they did not need additional prodding to do what they knew needed to be done. And Faramir was never tempted to take the ring from Frodo. He didn't try and bring Frodo back to Osgiliath or Minas Tirith with the ring. Faramir was a man of stronger character than Boramir and his purity, courage and strength came out in the book. Unlike the movie where Faramir was an uncertain panzy with low self esteem who desperately wanted his daddy's approval. The movies were good, but Jackson cheapened alot of the charachters.

I agree Jackson tool elemental characters and striped them of many of the very attributes that allowed them to overcome in the books. Some of this may have been necessary due to the nature of movies but most of it was not, it was just easier to do it that way.

Quoted: When Jackson left out Bombadil and how Merry got the sword (dagger really) from the Downs out of that tomb was very disappointing. While they were in the Old Forest they learned how some trees were still 'alive' like "Old Man Willow" who tried to eat em, if thats how you wanna describe it.

In the movie Treebeard was a combination of Treebeard from the book and Bombadil. In the Special Edition of The Two Towers they included the part where Merry and Pippen were "eaten" by Old Man Willow.

The significance of the dagger that Merry used to stab the Witch King of Angmar was something that was lost in movies.

Quoted: Quoted: <Snip> Just imagine if all those parts you mention were in the movie. It just wouldn't work. I do perfer the books to the movie, but I respect the movie for what it was and pretty much had to be to work.

I know why they left it all out. It would have been a LONG trilogy if they did. I hoped they were gonna put it in the extended editions, but they didn't.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: <Snip> Just imagine if all those parts you mention were in the movie. It just wouldn't work. I do perfer the books to the movie, but I respect the movie for what it was and pretty much had to be to work. I know why they left it all out. It would have been a LONG trilogy if they did. I hoped they were gonna put it in the extended editions, but they didn't.

It also would have been confusing. The barrow wights were very similar to the Nazgul, and I don't think that most people would have been able to discern the difference on screen.

Quoted: Quoted: When Jackson left out Bombadil and how Merry got the sword (dagger really) from the Downs out of that tomb was very disappointing. While they were in the Old Forest they learned how some trees were still 'alive' like "Old Man Willow" who tried to eat em, if thats how you wanna describe it. In the movie Treebeard was a combination of Treebeard from the book and Bombadil. In the Special Edition of The Two Towers they included the part where Merry and Pippen were "eaten" by Old Man Willow. The significance of the dagger that Merry used to stab the Witch King of Angmar was something that was lost in movies.

Then he puts in that crap with Aragorn going over the cliff in the The Two Towers. It was not needed and took time that could have been used for something else.

Quoted: In the movie Treebeard was a combination of Treebeard from the book and Bombadil. In the Special Edition of The Two Towers they included the part where Merry and Pippen were "eaten" by Old Man Willow.

I must've missed it.....

[goes off to watch]

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Merry was a Brandybuck and Pippin was a Took. And Jackson robbed them of their chance to deal with Sharkey at the end. All the other missed scenes in the movie I can deal with.  Ya gotta keep the movie under 5 hours anyway .  But the Scouring of the Shire will be very much missed.  I was looking forward to that part.

He could have at least filmed it for the special extended edition.

The scenes that I really wanted to see that were left out were the sacking of the shire and how Gandalf ended up with Shadowfax. He didn't just appear one day. He was told by the king of Rohan to take any horse to aid him in his travel, (forget where he was going), so since thier was no restriction on what horse to take Gandalf took Shadowfax, the lord of all horses. Much to the dismay of the king of Rohan, (can't remember his name) I thought that was funny.

Another thing I REALLY wanted to see was Tom Bombadil. If not for him the fellowship would have never been formed in the first place because Frodo would have been killed in the barrow downs. I also think that Kate Blanchett would have made a better Goldberry than the elf queen of Lothlorien.

I realize that for the sake of keeping the movies as short as possible but the trip from the Shire to Weathertop was much more dangerous and took a lot longer than it was portrayed in the movies. I liked the movies quite a bit but, of course, there are some things I would have liked to have seen that weren't included and some things that were there that should not have been.

One of my favorite lines in the book is when, after the fall of Gandalf, the fellowship is in Lothlorien. Aaragorn is taking in the beauty of the forest and Tolkien says something like "...and he never came there again as a living man."
Simply beautiful.

Quoted: Quoted: Sci-Fi Nut, Sorry sir, Jagoff... I mean Jackson... butchered the actual MEANING of the book and crapped on the NOBILITY of the Kings of Men ie Numenoreans by turning Aragorn into an unabashed facking PUSSY. I agree 100% In the books, Aragorn knew that his destiny was to take the throne of Gondor and was not afraid to embrace it. He was just waiting for the right time to do so. Also, Aragorn never wanted to let Arwen go to the west, and she never attempted to do so. In the movies Aragorn did not want to fulfill his destiny and chose a life of exile and broke off his relationship with his future queen. I thought that that these two plot lines cheapened the character of Aragorn in the movies and portrayed him as more of a coward than a hero. Also, in the book Aragorn kept Narsil with him at all times even before it was reforged because this sword was his birthright. By the time the fellowship left Rivendale Aragorn had had the sword reforged since he knew that he was embarking on the path that would return him to the throne or Gondor. He did not need to have Elrond come and push him towards his destiny as was portrayed in the movies. Aragorn was regal figure through out the books, not some exiled mercenary.

And another thing....

As I recall the story from the books, Faramir knew damn well that the ring wasn't for him and he didn't try to take it from Frodo.  He had Frodo in his power and could have taken it, but didn't.  He didn't want it.  He had the character that Boromir lacked.  In the movie, he was much more like his brother and had couldn't appreciate the danger of the ring until he was beaten over the head with it.

Same thing with Treebeard.  If I recall the books correctly, he didn't have to be tricked by the hobbits into getting involved with Saruman.  He knew damn well what was going on with his trees, but being an ent, it took a bit of time to set things in motion.  At that point, Merry and Pippin were mainly along for the ride.

It seemed to me that Jackson felt the need to diminish other characters to give the hobbits added importance.  Sort of dumbed it down for the kiddies or something.

Quoted: Quoted: I thought Peter Jackson's interpretation of the Battle of Helm's deep was better than the original. I don't. I thought that the retreat from the westfold and the battle in the book was much more dramatic than the movie. I also thought that Jackson's portrayal of the Ents not wanting to go to war with Isengard was lame as well. The Ents were furious with Saruman over the destruction of the forests and there was no real reluctance on their part to go to war. Their ways were slow and methodical, and the entmoot did last a long time but they did not need additional prodding to do what they knew needed to be done. And Faramir was never tempted to take the ring from Frodo. He didn't try and bring Frodo back to Osgiliath or Minas Tirith with the ring. Faramir was a man of stronger character than Boramir and his purity, courage and strength came out in the book. Unlike the movie where Faramir was an uncertain panzy with low self esteem who desperately wanted his daddy's approval. The movies were good, but Jackson cheapened alot of the charachters.

If I'd read this first, I could have skipped my last post.  Well said.

I think my three favorite parts of the books are:

The Mines of Moria

Shelob

The Scouring of the Shire

I was very impressed with how Moria came out.  Jackson's version of the Balrog was truly impressive.  I like how it was cloaked in smoke and shadow, so your imagination could still work.

Shelob wasn't too bad, but the parts he changed with Faramir detouring to Osgiliath were really unnecessary.

I was very disappointed some version of the Scouring of the Shire wasn't included.  However, I read other (newbie idiots) reviews that complained about the length of the Return of the King, and how it has like 5 endings.


I think I started reading LOTR in like 6th grade.  There was this fellow in my class that could write elven script that turned me on to them.

So, what did happen to the Ent wives?

Quoted: I haven't read the books yet, so bear with me.... What are all of Saruman's soldiers doing buried underground? How'd they get there? Oh, and why is it that the other two Hobbits weren't immediately decapitated the first time they acted stupid?

There's a lot of difference between the books and the movies, but I think they were for the best.  For instance, Frodo was more middle aged in the book, but I always thought he came off as a wimp.  It's better that the movie made him younger.

Quoted: Quoted: Oh. Thanks! As for Pepin Pippin (actually Peregrine)and the other little idiotMerry (actually Merriweather)( both of them having last name Tuck), I'm talking about their incredible ability to ANNOY. Peregrine Took, Meriodic Brandybuck. Quoted: According to Elrond, Aragorn was more like to Elendil himself in mind and body than any heirs before him, and he knew them all.

Considering Elrond was Aragorns great, great, great, great........ uncle, it's no suprise he knew all of the Numenorian Kings and the heirs to the throne.

ob-trivia for non-"LOTR geeks: Elrond's grandfather was a human called Beren, his grandmother was an elf princess called Luthien. Elves and humans weren't supposed to have mixed-race children, but those two did. (In the first movie, when Aragorn is leading the hobbits from the town of Bree to Rivendel, they cross through a swamp, and one night Aragorn is singing to himself. Frodo asks him about the song. The song is about Luthien, Elrond's grandmother, and a very distant ancestor to Aragorn himself). Beren and Luthien had a son, Earendil "the half elven" (because of his mixed parents). Earendil had two sons, Elrond and Elros. Middle Earth has a "god" called Eru and sometimes called Iluvitar, although Tolkin never elaborated on the people in Middle Earth practicing religion. Eru had a group of demi-god servants called the Valar. The Valar found out about Beren, Luthien and their mixed race child and grandchilkdren and decided to get involved.
They gave Earendil, Elrond and Elros a choice, they could become wholly elven or wholly human but could not remain mixed. If any of them became human they and their descendents would be granted a natural lifespan far longer than other men, but they would still be mortal men. Only Elros became human, Earendil and Elrond became completely elven although Elrond was also called "the half elven" by some people, just like his father had been. All of Elrond's children (two sons, Elodan and Elrohir, and his daughter Arwen) also had the ability to choose to be either immortal elves or mortal humans. The sons remained elves, Arwen became mortal just before she married Aragorn.

The Valar also made it possible for Elros to be the first king of a group of men favoured and befriended by the Valar. These men became the Numenorians (also called the Dunadein by some people, including Eowyn in the second movie) who created the kingdom of Gondor. Aragorn and his ancestors were decended from Elrond's brother Elros, and Aragorn married Elrond's daugher, his cousin (many generations removed).

Quoted: Oh. Thanks! As for Pepin and the other little idiot, I'm talking about their incredible ability to ANNOY. "I know a Frodo Baggins! Right over THERE!" Idiot.

Of note here.  It wasn't Merry or Pippin who outed Frodo at the Prancing Pony Inn in Bree.  Frodo acted an idiot and outted himself.  He was drinking too much and the people in the Inn asked him to sing a song of the Shire.  He sang and danced about, feel off the table and the ring slipped itself on his finger.

Admittedly the journey from the Shire to Bree was not quite so harrowing a trip as it was made out to be in the movies.  Tolkien spent a good deal of time mentioning how much the hobbits were enjoying itself on their little fieldtrip.  They never expected to have to take the ring to Mordor as even Gandalf had intended them only to carry it to Rivendell to pass it off.   As Frodo probably didn't fully understand the seriousness of what was going on (I do not recall if Frodo even knew the truth about what the ring was other than it simply being his uncle's 'funny magic ring' until it came out in the Council) so I guess I can understand why he'd been drinking a too much Bud Ice that night.

Quoted: So, what did happen to the Ent wives?

From the hobbits talking about the animatedness of the trees in the Old Forest to the east of the Shire I took it as hinted by Tolkein that that is were the female Ents had gotten to...or atleast where they eventually perished.





*I haven't read the books for a good while so forgive me if I'm getting things wrong.

Quoted: To all: If I may lay claim to anything, I would say that I am the Uber-Nerd perhaps even Over-Nerd concerning Prof Tolkiens universe.

Yeah, but can you write in elvish?

I knew a guy who wrote his diary in that script. WEIRD, boy!

Just WEIRD!

Quoted: So, what did happen to the Ent wives?

They hired the true ancestors of the Uruk Hai, lawyers, and sued the Ents for divorce.

They took everything they owned and left them destitute.

That is why the Ents lived naked in the woods.

Quoted: Quoted: So, what did happen to the Ent wives? From the hobbits talking about the animatedness of the trees in the Old Forest to the east of the Shire I took it as hinted by Tolkein that that is were the female Ents had gotten to...or atleast where they eventually perished. *I haven't read the books for a good while so forgive me if I'm getting things wrong.

Very early in the book, before Frodo and the others leave the shire, there is a scene in the Green Dragon Inn where Sam and another hobbit are having a conversation. Sam mentions that one of his cousins claims to have seen a walking tree in the northern part of the Shire.

Also in the book, the hobbits don't leave the Shire straight away. The four of them move to another house in Buckland just near the border between the Shire and the Old Forest, and one of them (Merry or Pippin) tells a brief story of how trees from the Old Forest came into the Shire and that the hobbits living nearby cut them down and burned them. The story portrays the trees as aggressive. If they were Entwives they'd obviously changed in temperament since leaving the Ents in Fangorn, but I'm not so inclined to think they were Entwives. There were wild ents in Fangorn, called Huorns. Treebeard warns Merry and Pippin about them, telling them to keep away from them and that the Ents need to watch the Huorns and keep them under control. The ents and huorns didn't start out concious and able to move about, they were "woken up" by the early elves. My opinion on the old forest is that there were huorns there, woken up by elves but there were no ents to keep them under control, although even that isn't a strong argument. If the trees in the story about the old forest were wild huorns, they were very docile if hobbits could cut them down with axes and burn them without getting literally pulped first (ents and huorns can shatter solid rock with their bare hands when they are angry enough).

Treebeard mentions that the Entwives first moved to an area near the Anduin river when they left Fangorn, and cultivated the land there. The first war of the ring (the one which culminated in Elendil cutting the ring off Saurion's hand) swept through that area and after the fighting had finished the ents went to the area where the entwives had been living. Everything in that area had been burned/destroyed by Sauron's armies and there was no sign of the entwives at all. Tolkien never completely decided what happened to them, but in one of his published letters he wrote that the most likely fate was that they dies when their lands were destroyed in the first war of the ring.

Wow.  Three pages on LOTR.  I think I'm amongst friends.  Just had to check in.

Quoted: Quoted: So, what did happen to the Ent wives? They hired the true ancestors of the Uruk Hai, lawyers, and sued the Ents for divorce. They took everything they owned and left them destitute. That is why the Ents lived naked in the woods.

You old Ent, you!

 Well, guys, I gotta add my own two cents on this since I am a big fan of Tolkien and of C.S. Lewis, Robert E. Howard and such.  

 The thing that I DID love about Jackson's films was the CAST and the cast loyalty to the work....I also despised Jackson's treatment of the work.  What particularly pissed me off was his treatment of the Orcs by making them all disfigured and slimy with rotting teeth, etc.  I have always taken the Orcs to be Dark Elves, evil and malevolent but not slimy.  They were, essentially a seperate race.  I also hated his focus on human weakness.

 what I would have like to have seen was the entire LOTR done as a two seaon mini series that stuck as close to the series as possible....yet using the same folks ( WETA, New Zealand, the concept artists, historians, etc. ) and budget to create Tolkien's work as a whole.

 I am similarly troubled with the current Narnia film for similar reasons, though the integrity of the original work is much better retained than in LOTR....I still think it could be done even better......

 of course, were I a director, Narnia and LOTR would be giving little kids nightmares for the rest of their lives.....but teens and adults would be mroe enrapt than they already are.....

 I believe in sticking with the integrity of the original work....

that's why you won't catch me going to see Aeon Flux......I can already tell they fluxed that one up BIG TIME!!!

I guess I'm the only one who thought leaving Tom Bombadil out of the movies was the best decision ever.

I'm not a LOTR fanatic, though, just a guy who read the books a few times.

I also wish the movies would portray the ancient arts of Elves and Men.  Merry and Pipin's daggers they got from the Barrow Down, they weren't ordinary daggers, they had scripts on the blades and made for the bane of the Witch King, they were potent against the Witch King and his followers as Sting was against the Orcs and dark creatures for which the Elves made it.
When Sam hacked the thick web of Shelob, his blade of Westernese bounced and hit him lol.  But Sting was able to cut it like a hot knife through butter.
Aragorn's Anduril, when remade, shone with the light of the sun and moon, and was very bright.  In the battle of the Helms, it was mentioned that it shone with a deadly light, it wasn't just any sword that was reforged. Narsil was made in the first age by Telchar, when it was broken by Sauron, its light was extinguished.
In all ages, the tall Men of Numenor and Gondor were more than a match for the Orcs.  Their weapons and armor were superior, not to mention the Elves and Dwarfs made marvalous gears which they used as well. In the movie, men were weak pussies.

I wish there had been 5 minutes showing the battle for the Kingdom Under the Mountain, the fall of Dain II and Brand, aswell as the casting down of walls of Dol Guldur.

Quoted: I guess I'm the only one who thought leaving Tom Bombadil out of the movies was the best decision ever. I'm not a LOTR fanatic, though, just a guy who read the books a few times.

I agree with you on the premise that they ( Jackson's crew ) would have jacked it all up.  Tom Bombadil was a rather mysterious character I sort of equated with God incarnate.....or something like Mechizeldek ( spelling is wrong, I know ) from the old Testament.

Tom Bombadil was older than old and fatherless, a spirit of the earth which took the shape of Men that roamed the world.  My guess he was like a Valar, and not created by Iluvatar, like the Elves, Men and Dwarves, who were children of Iluvatar.  Wheras the Valars were like the high ranking lieutenants of Iluvatar, each possessing powers given to them, Tom Bombadil's power was in the earth itself.

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Quoted:
So, what did happen to the Ent wives?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




They hired the true ancestors of the Uruk Hai, lawyers, and sued the Ents for divorce.

They took everything they owned and left them destitute.

That is why the Ents lived naked in the woods.
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Good one O_P!!!

I have never heard that one before, thats a scream.

Actually I heard the Ring-wraiths actually were a group of Black Numenorean lawyers that Sauron originally used as his legal representation team. Sort of like "If the Ring doesnt fit, you must acquit" if you will.
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If any of you fans of the Lord of the Rings have not done so. Go online and locate a copy of the Harvard Lampoons "Bored of the Ring". When I read it in 8th grade I laughed so hard I almost fell down, it is utterly hysterical. This was written by the guys who actually wrote for National Lampoon and also wrote Animal House.

It is the most inventive satire I have ever read. A bit dated as it was done in the 60's, but still reads exceptionally well.

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Zaphod:


Yeah, but can you write in elvish?

I knew a guy who wrote his diary in that script. WEIRD, boy!
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Yeah, I got that covered, even have a program on my computer that will translate english into either of the two main Elvish scripts.

Good enough?



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Quoted: Quoted: Oh. Thanks! As for Pepin and the other little idiot, I'm talking about their incredible ability to ANNOY. "I know a Frodo Baggins! Right over THERE!" Idiot. Of note here.  It wasn't Merry or Pippin who outed Frodo at the Prancing Pony Inn in Bree.  Frodo acted an idiot and outted himself.  He was drinking too much and the people in the Inn asked him to sing a song of the Shire.  He sang and danced about, feel off the table and the ring slipped itself on his finger. Admittedly the journey from the Shire to Bree was not quite so harrowing a trip as it was made out to be in the movies.  Tolkien spent a good deal of time mentioning how much the hobbits were enjoying itself on their little fieldtrip.  They never expected to have to take the ring to Mordor as even Gandalf had intended them only to carry it to Rivendell to pass it off.   As Frodo probably didn't fully understand the seriousness of what was going on (I do not recall if Frodo even knew the truth about what the ring was other than it simply being his uncle's 'funny magic ring' until it came out in the Council) so I guess I can understand why he'd been drinking a too much Bud Ice that night. Quoted: So, what did happen to the Ent wives? From the hobbits talking about the animatedness of the trees in the Old Forest to the east of the Shire I took it as hinted by Tolkein that that is were the female Ents had gotten to...or atleast where they eventually perished. *I haven't read the books for a good while so forgive me if I'm getting things wrong.

Just to clarify it. Yes, Frodo did know about the importance of the ring. The one thing Peter Jackson did get pretty accurate was the scene at Bag End where Gandalf tosses the ring into the fire and pulls it out with a set of tongs. He does go into the history of the ring and explains it all to Frodo and of course old Sam Gamgee is "dropping eaves" outside the window and Gandalf knocks him on the head with his staff and drags him in! Great scene in the book, decent scene in the movie.

Also, guys can you help me remember something. Wasn't it literally years between the time Gandalf left the Shire after Bilbo's birthday party and his return to explain the ring to Frodo?

And also didn't it say in the book that during that time there were several occassions where Frodo would go about the Shire and slip the ring on? Or was it Bilbo that was doing that?

Quoted: I guess I'm the only one who thought leaving Tom Bombadil out of the movies was the best decision ever. I'm not a LOTR fanatic, though, just a guy who read the books a few times.

I don't think axing Bombodil from the movie was a bad decision. The character doesn't add anything significant to the immediate story of the book, apart from saving the hobbits from the barrow wights and giving them some swords recovered from the abandoned tomb. There was no way to get everything into the book, so some things had to go. I'd agree that not having the scouring of the Shire when the hobbits get back wasn't such a good idea. That was supposed to demonstrate how much they had matured compared to before they left int he first place.

I think some of the things they added to the movie that weren't in the book didn't need to be added. Things like the elves at helm's deep, Aragorn falling off the cliff, Elrond bringing him the sword at Dunharrow (in the book the group stayed at Rivendel for several weeks before starting their journey, and the sword was repaired before they left). Arwen never showed any doubt about marrying Aragorn, provided he become king of Gondor (that was Elrond's idea, he wouldn't agree to the marriage unless Aragorn became king first) and Elrond never tried to make her leave Middle Earth against her own wishes. Others have pointed out the changes with Faramir that were unneccesary. Jackson could have stayed much closer to the book than he did but I wouldn't be suprised if there was some pressure from the studio financing the movies to "hollywood-ise" the story to make it more commercial for the mainstream public.

Quoted: Quoted: I guess I'm the only one who thought leaving Tom Bombadil out of the movies was the best decision ever. I'm not a LOTR fanatic, though, just a guy who read the books a few times. I don't think axing Bombodil from the movie was a bad decision. The character doesn't add anything significant to the immediate story of the book, apart from saving the hobbits from the barrow wights and giving them some swords recovered from the abandoned tomb. There was no way to get everything into the book, so some things had to go. I'd agree that not having the scouring of the Shire when the hobbits get back wasn't such a good idea. That was supposed to demonstrate how much they had matured compared to before they left int he first place. I think some of the things they added to the movie that weren't in the book didn't need to be added. Things like the elves at helm's deep, Aragorn falling off the cliff, Elrond bringing him the sword at Dunharrow (in the book the group stayed at Rivendel for several weeks before starting their journey, and the sword was repaired before they left). Arwen never showed any doubt about marrying Aragorn, provided he become king of Gondor (that was Elrond's idea, he wouldn't agree to the marriage unless Aragorn became king first) and Elrond never tried to make her leave Middle Earth against her own wishes. Others have pointed out the changes with Faramir that were unneccesary. Jackson could have stayed much closer to the book than he did but I wouldn't be suprised if there was some pressure from the studio financing the movies to "hollywood-ise" the story to make it more commercial for the mainstream public.

Yeah, good point!
The sacking of the Shire was a big leave out IMO. The hobbits, like you said, really matured during thier journey and coming home to the Shire to see it in ruins, for lack of a better word, REALLY pissed them off. They just walked right in and told everyone this is how it's gonna be. Are you with us? Then they set about kicking some ass in a way that only a hobbit can!

Mark me down as another LOTRs fan that was dissapointed that Tom Bombadil was left out of the movie. He was one of my favorite characters. The reclaiming of the Shire had me TOTALLY PUMPED! when I read it for the first time. I was really really looking forward to that part of the movie, and when it never came, I left the movie a bit  dissapointed. Honestly I'm just glad someone took a shot at getting it made well on the big screen. I went in knowing that it could never capture the magic of the novel. I was happy with what I got however.

Quoted: You rang for the chief LOTR nerd?

Nerd indeed.

I didn't read the books, but enjoyed the movies (Trilogy Tuesday was a truely awesome event!)

...might tackle the books this Summer.

Quoted: Yeah, good point! The sacking of the Shire was a big leave out IMO. The hobbits, like you said, really matured during thier journey and coming home to the Shire to see it in ruins, for lack of a better word, REALLY pissed them off. They just walked right in and told everyone this is how it's gonna be. Are you with us? Then they set about kicking some ass in a way that only a hobbit can!

Considering their height, kicking some kneecaps maybe.

I, for one, was not disappointed in the movies.  I knew Jackson could never be totally accurate to the books.  They were still some of the best movies I've ever seen.

Cuts had to be made.  The movies were already long, and productions costs weren't measured in pennies.

I didn't mind missing things like Tom Bombadil.  It didn't seem to fit with the rest of the books from what I remember.  The retaking of the Shire would have been a nice, but I think non-readers would find it anti-climactic once The Ring was destroyed.

I do hope Jackson re-makes The Hobbit.

Quoted: Yeah, I got that covered, even have a program on my computer that will translate english into either of the two main Elvish scripts. Good enough?

Yep!

We need a "certified GEEK" banner or smiley over here, please!

Yeah... I am a nerd... I got that goin' for me. Cuz' ... you know... chicks dig that.


Dram out

Quoted: Quoted: Orcs were made from Elves.  I remember reading that Melkor captured Elves in his wars with them, he tormented and corrupted them to his evil purpose.  Also remember something about capturing the Elves when they were still sleeping.  Not the sleep we do at night lol, Elves were "first born" while other children of Ilúvatar (Man, Dwarves) still slept. Yes, when Elves first appeared on earth, some got lost while others banded togeather. The ones who were lost were captured by Melkor, tortured, perverted, and became orcs over time.

If the orcs were derived from elves...what is the life span of an Elf.  Clearly Elrond is 1000+ years...can orcs live that long?

Quoted: Quoted: (I do not recall if Frodo even knew the truth about what the ring was other than it simply being his uncle's 'funny magic ring' until it came out in the Council) so I guess I can understand why he'd been drinking a too much Bud Ice that night. Just to clarify it. Yes, Frodo did know about the importance of the ring. The one thing Peter Jackson did get pretty accurate was the scene at Bag End where Gandalf tosses the ring into the fire and pulls it out with a set of tongs. He does go into the history of the ring and explains it all to Frodo and of course old Sam Gamgee is "dropping eaves" outside the window and Gandalf knocks him on the head with his staff and drags him in! Great scene in the book, decent scene in the movie.

Blast it all.  You are correct.  Frodo should have known better than doing shots in the Prancing Pony that night.

Also, guys can you help me remember something. Wasn't it literally years between the time Gandalf left the Shire after Bilbo's birthday party and his return to explain the ring to Frodo?

I believe it was about a decade.  Not only did Gandalf need to go out and find for a certainty that the ring was the One Ring and not one of its lesser slaves but he also had to contend with the Necromancer (Sauron, but weak) in Mirkwood who had appeared  there after the events of The Hobbit.


After reading the Silmarillion I recall that there were THREE wizards that the Valar had provided to Middle Earth.  Mithrander (Gandalf) the Gray, Sarumon the White but also Radagast the Red.  I do not recall much more than a mere mentioning of Radagast in the Silmarillion and can't say that I recall his name at all in the trilogy.  Did Tolkien just decide not to use him or was he busy elsewhere during the events of LOTR?

Nother question, I do not recall what happened to the Dwarves that moved to Lonely Mountain after they'd driven out Smog.  I know that some went back to Khazad-dûm, to their peril, but what happened to those back in Erebor?

Quoted: After reading the Silmarillion I recall that there were THREE wizards that the Valar had provided to Middle Earth.  Mithrander (Gandalf) the Gray, Sarumon the White but also Radagast the Red.  I do not recall much more than a mere mentioning of Radagast in the Silmarillion and can't say that I recall his name at all in the trilogy.  Did Tolkien just decide not to use him or was he busy elsewhere during the events of LOTR? Nother question, I do not recall what happened to the Dwarves that moved to Lonely Mountain after they'd driven out Smog.  I know that some went back to Khazad-dûm, to their peril, but what happened to those back home?

IIRC it was Radagast the Brown. Saruman used him to summon Gandalf for their showdown; describing him as simple and naive.

Quoted: Oh. Thanks! As for Pepin and the other little idiot, I'm talking about their incredible ability to ANNOY. "I know a Frodo Baggins! Right over THERE!" Idiot.

At that point they had not been told to keep Frodos identity a secret. Only Sam and Frodo knew.

Quoted: Quoted: Oh. Thanks! As for Pepin and the other little idiot, I'm talking about their incredible ability to ANNOY. "I know a Frodo Baggins! Right over THERE!" Idiot. At that point they had not been told to keep Frodos identity a secret. Only Sam and Frodo knew.

That's the movie version.  In the book, Pipin and Merry conspired to go with Sam and Frodo after they heard about the Ring.  They didn't run into them while stealing farmer Maggot's crops.
The movie made it seem like days between the time Gandalf realized what it may be, and the time he came back after doing research in Gondor, and verified it was the ruling ring.  It was years and years, not days.

Quoted: Quoted: After reading the Silmarillion I recall that there were THREE wizards that the Valar had provided to Middle Earth.  Mithrander (Gandalf) the Gray, Sarumon the White but also Radagast the Red.  I do not recall much more than a mere mentioning of Radagast in the Silmarillion and can't say that I recall his name at all in the trilogy.  Did Tolkien just decide not to use him or was he busy elsewhere during the events of LOTR? Nother question, I do not recall what happened to the Dwarves that moved to Lonely Mountain after they'd driven out Smog.  I know that some went back to Khazad-dûm, to their peril, but what happened to those back home? IIRC it was Radagast the Brown. Saruman used him to summon Gandalf for their showdown; describing him as simple and naive.

Five total.

(1) Saruman the White
(2) Gandalf the Grey
(3) Radagast the Brown: became enamored with the birds and beasts of middle-earth and largely ignored Sauron.  Give Saruman control over many birds before his betrayal was known, which is why in the movies they have to hide from the flock of birds on top of Moria, these were Radagast's servants unknowingly used for evil.  
(4 & 5) "The Blue Wizards," Alatar and Pallando: Vaguely referenced by Tolkien in his notes as having gone east with Saruman well before the return of Sauron to Barad-Dur, after which they played no role in the Lord of the Rings.

Source: Tolkien's Unfinished Tales (a collection of his essays and notes on the world he created)

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Orcs were made from Elves.  I remember reading that Melkor captured Elves in his wars with them, he tormented and corrupted them to his evil purpose.  Also remember something about capturing the Elves when they were still sleeping.  Not the sleep we do at night lol, Elves were "first born" while other children of Ilúvatar (Man, Dwarves) still slept. Yes, when Elves first appeared on earth, some got lost while others banded togeather. The ones who were lost were captured by Melkor, tortured, perverted, and became orcs over time. If the orcs were derived from elves...what is the life span of an Elf.  Clearly Elrond is 1000+ years...can orcs live that long?

Elrond is more like 3000+ years old if I got the timelines right...

But that is immaterial; as he is of the Eldar he is IMMORTAL

Elves are more Spirit than Flesh...

Remember when Frodo, partly in the spirit realm at the Ford of Rivendell, sees Glorfindel as a shining form of light, while Strider and the hobbits are mere shadows?

Remember Legolas lightly stepping over the snow at the Pass of Caradhras, instead of sinking into it like Dwarf, Man and Halfling?

Remember when Feanor's body is consumed by flame when he falls at the Battle-Under-Stars?

Elves can be "killed", but only their physical bodies perish, not their spirits, which since they are bound to the Earth return to the West and the Halls of Mandos, there to await the return of the One and the renewal of the Earth.


The Orcs on the other hand are so debased that their bodies are inhabited by mortal spirits like Men and Halflings (the Dwarves, being made by Aule, are a special case). While some orc cheiftains do live to a great age, the ordinary goblin probably has the same span as a man.