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Posted: 12/6/2005 11:47:05 PM EDT
no biggie..


had a headlight out..... was working when i left where i was and not working when he pulled me over..

waited while he ran me.. im clean..


this was a rare time that i have not taken adavntage of the new texas law that allows in car carry of a handgun without a CHL.

why was i not carrying? i went to the range today and cleaned all the weapons i fired and it didnt make it back in the truck. which turned out to be a god thing in this case.


this is what happened.

he walked up to the truck.. asked for DL and INS and in the same breath asked if i had any weapons on me..

i said yes . I have an AR15 behind the seat. < didnt fire that when i went to the range so it didnt get offloaded from the truck and cleaned.>

he didnt flinch just thanked me for informing him and asked me to keep my hands on the wheel and not reach for anything until he came back.. cool no big deal i understand the reasoning for that.

when he did come back i was informed the reason was the headlight and i signed my ticket. < didnt say it was working a minute ago.... just said i understand officer and signed. >

As i was signing i asked if i could have "offical" clarification on a law..

he said sure , which one?

i mentioned the new law effective Sept 1 in TX that allows a handgun in a car as long as it concealed...

he said i dont care what it says i am looking out for my safety and the safety of other officers.. you will be going to jail and charged with having a concealed weapon.

at this point he was cool and talkitive.. so i said..

really even if the new law states I can?

he stated he had to look out for his safety and he would not tolerate someone he pulled over to have a weapon and no CHL..

I presented the senerio that if i did have one < clarified that i didnt > but if i did and declared it when he stoped me.. what would be happening right now?

his response was that i would be disarmed and arrested and a judge would decide if the charge would stick.

this is the law i am talking about
THE BIGGEST CHANGE OF THE YEAR:

"Traveling" defined at last, almost, after more than 125 years
HB 823 -- Amends Penal Code 2.05, 46.15

Analysts at the NRA, along with the Texas State Rifle Association’s Legislative Committee describe these two new amendments this way:

“Texas H.B. 823 prevents the police from routinely arresting a law-abiding person who is transporting a concealed pistol in his motor vehicle. This is accomplished by clothing a law-abiding person with the presumption of being a traveler. The traveler presumption may be rebutted by the state by presenting proof beyond a reasonable doubt. In plain terms, a law-abiding person should have no problem transporting his pistol in a motor vehicle provided the pistol is concealed.”

Texas Attorney Sean Healy has an eight-page paper
attempting to describe the new situation, read it here <www.gunlaws.com/Texas-healy-traveling.htm


so basicly i would have declared when asked because since sept 1st I have been carrying.. < in the case under the seat. and yes it is always loaded. >

well.... now i am worried about puting the handgun back in the truck... sure i think I am right but i dont have the money for a lawyer to prove it in court..

would a print out of the law helped any?

I was nice he was nice and we had a good cinversation but in the end he said i would be going to jail if i did what i think the new law allows me to do.

Link Posted: 12/6/2005 11:52:03 PM EDT
It's nice when someone takes "safety" beyond the letter and intent of the law and uses "personal beliefs" and gets a nice mark on your arrest record.
Link Posted: 12/6/2005 11:52:26 PM EDT
Most TX LEOs I have come across have been very supportive of
citizens maintaining arms in thier vehicles.

If this LEO doesn't feel the law applies to him, it's
his issue...

'Specially when I sue.

Sorry. TX law. It's not vauge.
Link Posted: 12/6/2005 11:53:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/6/2005 11:54:04 PM EDT
I would approach his supervisor and talk to him about your encounter with the officer. If it is not against the law, then wouldn't he be arresting you for nothing?


Why don't you have a CHL, then you wouldn't have to worry about it.
Link Posted: 12/6/2005 11:55:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Goonboss:
Most TX LEOs I have come across have been very supportive of
citizens maintaining arms in thier vehicles.

If this LEO doesn't feel the law applies to him, it's
his issue...

'Specially when I sue.

Sorry. TX law. It's not vauge.




his anser was basicly .. i would be arrested and the judge will decide.

also mentioned that his sargents had made no mention of this ..

he had no issue with the rifle.. it was the handgun that would get me arrested. < by him>

Link Posted: 12/6/2005 11:55:11 PM EDT
Make a call or two. See that this is brought to someone's attention. Someone higher up. Shift supervisor? No need for unneccesary arrests to be made. Costs too much on both ends.

Link Posted: 12/6/2005 11:57:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/6/2005 11:58:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kooter:
I would approach his supervisor and talk to him about your encounter with the officer. If it is not against the law, then wouldn't he be arresting you for nothing?


Why don't you have a CHL, then you wouldn't have to worry about it.



I got a CHL 'cause I'm a Level IV in TX.

(PPO COncelaed -while-working)

I need to be covered in every instance.

Never can tell what dipshit cop that has no goddamn idea of the law
is going to get crazy.

(Oh...I'm one of the blue brotherHOOD...According to some.)

I actually like cops...They just need to keep up on current laws is all.
Link Posted: 12/6/2005 11:58:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2005 12:00:03 AM EDT by cluster]

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
What city? Or were you pulled over by DFW police?



dallas pulled over by a DPD officer..

have the name if needed .. < im assuming its on the ticket >



he mentioned that it was for thier safety.. i mentioned what about my safety.. he answered" you have the chance to go home.. i have to stay out here all night.. "


also mentioned the shooting of officers in the area lately... and i was stoped close to where one happened just a few days ago..

time of stop about 2 am coming from whataburger

Link Posted: 12/7/2005 12:00:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2005 12:01:29 AM EDT by 82ndAbn]
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 12:00:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cluster:

Originally Posted By Goonboss:
Most TX LEOs I have come across have been very supportive of
citizens maintaining arms in thier vehicles.

If this LEO doesn't feel the law applies to him, it's
his issue...

'Specially when I sue.

Sorry. TX law. It's not vauge.




his anser was basicly .. i would be arrested and the judge will decide.

also mentioned that his sargents had made no mention of this ..

he had no issue with the rifle.. it was the handgun that would get me arrested. < by him>




Yeah.

I got that.

That shit wouldn't fly.

TX law....IF that still means anything,
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 12:03:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 12:03:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
No need to post the officer's name. Interesting encounter you had, that's for sure.



got ya... didnt mean to post it.. just to call someone and bring it to someones attention..

so how does one go about doing that?
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 12:08:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cluster:

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
No need to post the officer's name. Interesting encounter you had, that's for sure.



got ya... didnt mean to post it.. just to call someone and bring it to someones attention..

so how does one go about doing that?



DPD Phone #.

I'm sure there is a reference on your ticket.

I would mention that the officer was professional in his dealings....

Then, I'd mention that obviously, some officers had some issues with the law.

I'd suggest that officers get departmental guideance before there was a lawsuit.

TX law is law, regardless of LEO interpretation.
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 12:10:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 12:14:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:

Originally Posted By cluster:

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
No need to post the officer's name. Interesting encounter you had, that's for sure.



got ya... didnt mean to post it.. just to call someone and bring it to someones attention..

so how does one go about doing that?



If you want to put forth the effort, you could start with the shift supervisor (or whomever is in charge when you call the station). But, like I said, I bet it's a case of the officer being unaware of the recent change in the old law about travelling. His response sounds typical of what you'd get prior to the change. Remember the old saying, "You can beat the charge but not the ride"?




yeah i got that feeling..
but then im sure the ride will cost me a pretty penny.


the officer was nice but now i am worried about carrying.. since i travel thru that area at that time alot..
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 12:15:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cluster:

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:

Originally Posted By cluster:

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
No need to post the officer's name. Interesting encounter you had, that's for sure.



got ya... didnt mean to post it.. just to call someone and bring it to someones attention..

so how does one go about doing that?



If you want to put forth the effort, you could start with the shift supervisor (or whomever is in charge when you call the station). But, like I said, I bet it's a case of the officer being unaware of the recent change in the old law about travelling. His response sounds typical of what you'd get prior to the change. Remember the old saying, "You can beat the charge but not the ride"?




yeah i got that feeling..
but then im sure the ride will cost me a pretty penny.


the officer was nice but now i am worried about carrying.. since i travel thru that area at that time alot..



Oh come on, the ACLU will protect your 2nd amendment rights


right?
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 12:17:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:

Originally Posted By cluster:

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
No need to post the officer's name. Interesting encounter you had, that's for sure.



got ya... didnt mean to post it.. just to call someone and bring it to someones attention..

so how does one go about doing that?



If you want to put forth the effort, you could start with the shift supervisor (or whomever is in charge when you call the station). But, like I said, I bet it's a case of the officer being unaware of the recent change in the old law about travelling. His response sounds typical of what you'd get prior to the change. Remember the old saying, "You can beat the charge but not the ride"?



I'll disagree with 8-2 here....No need to C-o-C. You aren't in his chain.

Go to the top.

Document.

I got sick of that corrupt chain issue when I was AD.

Again. This officer was ignorant...Not bad....It's important this
issue is adressed...

Obviously DFW has no clue what state law is.

(That scares me....As I was traveling with loaded rifle and, pistol LAST WEEKEND!)


Again....I like cops. It's disappointing when they don't know the laws they are charged to enforce.
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 12:17:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 12:19:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
I think you'll have to make a personal judgement call. Keeping a copy of the new law in the glove compartment may come in handy.



Yeah that'll come in real handy when the next one draws down...

Link Posted: 12/7/2005 12:20:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
I think you'll have to make a personal judgement call. Keeping a copy of the new law in the glove compartment may come in handy.



+1
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 12:23:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2005 12:31:24 AM EDT by 82ndAbn]
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 12:31:32 AM EDT
thank you all for your comments..

for now what i will do is print out the new law and have it in the glove box.

but it might be a few days till i start carrying the handgun in the truck again, since this stop tonight did scare me as far as not every one being on the same page < cops>

Link Posted: 12/7/2005 12:33:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:

Originally Posted By operatorerror:

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
I think you'll have to make a personal judgement call. Keeping a copy of the new law in the glove compartment may come in handy.



Yeah that'll come in real handy when the next one draws down...




ok...& your suggestion would be?



ETA: I'm guessing that's just a typical alarmist statement. California...figures.



I think it's being hysterical. Dude's from CA....Says a bunch.
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 12:34:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 12:35:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cluster:
thank you all for your comments..

for now what i will do is print out the new law and have it in the glove box.

but it might be a few days till i start carrying the handgun in the truck again, since this stop tonight did scare me as far as not every one being on the same page < cops>





AR-carbine is a good comprimise

Link Posted: 12/7/2005 4:25:37 AM EDT
dallas pulled over by a DPD officer..

Make a call to the chief of police's office or send them an e-mail. This is a training issue, he loves training issues. CC a copy to the mayors office and maybe the news department of channel 4,5,8, and 11.

This isn't Houston damnit they should know better.
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 4:42:29 AM EDT
It's nice to know that there are some LEOs out there who will cuff & stuff you just because they "don't care what the law says". It's no wonder that there's a public image problem.
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 4:44:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2005 4:45:33 AM EDT by LANCEMAN]

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:

Originally Posted By Kooter:
Why don't you have a CHL, then you wouldn't have to worry about it.



CHL = obligated to tell the officer
No CHL = not obligated



If you are not legally obligated to inform the officer why not just say "no" if one asks if you have any weapons and you have one in the vehicle concealed as the new law allows ? It really is none of his business in the first place. That is assuming you don't look or act like the type that would normally have your vehicle searched at a routine traffic stop
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 4:46:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 5:32:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2005 6:27:28 AM EDT by nightowl7]

Originally Posted By SPTiger:
It's nice to know that there are some LEOs out there who will cuff & stuff you just because they "don't care what the law says". It's no wonder that there's a public image problem.



Unfortunately it is probably going to take several [multiple] lawsuits against police departments and individuals before this new handgun law will be honored by law enforcement agencies in the state of Texas.

Law abiding citizens who are arrested and face crimminal charges have the obligation to themselves and others, all which have the right by the new statute pertaining to stowing a concealed handgun in their vehicle, seek legal remedy in a state court of law.

Law abiding citizens should persue litigation and due process under the law, monitored by a jury of their peers to protect themselves from false arrest and a trumped up crimminal record.

In times such as these american citizens must make contributions when nessesary to secure their second amendment right to bear arms and not be hindered when it comes to protecting one's family and personal property or even assisting a law enforcement official or others under attack or in a state of duress.

Law abiding citizenry should also be awarded compensation for damages and should also bring litigation against any law enforcement officer who would make such an illegal arrest in a civil court of law.

Unfortunatly options other than these will most likley not bring around any changes in the current attitude of some sworn officers who would rather make up their own laws through a attitude of arrogance rather than one of public service.

Link Posted: 12/7/2005 6:16:46 AM EDT
Sorry, but there has to be a violation of a crime in order for you to be charged.

In PA, you can not charge somoene with a crime, if there has been no violation. Its not up to the judge to decide, the officer better have PC for charging you.

If the story told is true then someone has their head up their butt.
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 6:18:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cluster:

i mentioned the new law effective Sept 1 in TX that allows a handgun in a car as long as it concealed...

he said i dont care what it says i am looking out for my safety and the safety of other officers.. you will be going to jail and charged with having a concealed weapon.



Cops that don't care what the law is. Big surprise.
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 6:21:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2005 6:22:39 AM EDT by skerbo]
Officer: "Do you have any weapons?"
You: "There are no illegal weapons in my possession."
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 6:26:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 6:29:17 AM EDT
The DA in Houston has gone on record stating that he will continue to charge people who have concealed handguns in their cars...FWIW
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 6:36:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2005 6:37:27 AM EDT by FALARAK]

Originally Posted By DVDTracker:
The new law doesn't make it leagl to carry concealed in a carry without a CHL. It's just a defense from prosecution. This has been hashed to death in the TX forum. They can still arrest you, but getting a conviction is a whole 'nother matter.

www.concealedhandgun.com/newlaw.htm



Agreed. This has been beat to death time and time again. The new law does NOT define "traveling" It simply defines the "presumption of traveling" One can argue it falls under non-applicability... so therefore the arrest should not take place.... but the judge will be the one to sort that out.

Until the law clearly states that it is perfectly legal to carry a concealed weapon in any motor vehicle, PERIOD.... I'd say this cop is right. It is up to him to enforce the law, which states UCW is illegal in Texas. He can do his best to determine if you have a valid defense of "traveling" and if he doesn't think so, you get popped. Pure and simple.

I dont agree with it.... but that is why I am waiting on my CHL to come in. This law didn't change enough in my mind, to make a difference.
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 6:42:59 AM EDT
AR-15 in car =

CCW in car =
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 6:47:06 AM EDT
So, when you go pay the ticket, if a clerk at the door asks to see your receipt, what's gonna happen?
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 6:54:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SPTiger:
It's nice to know that there are some LEOs out there who will cuff & stuff you just because they "don't care what the law says". It's no wonder that there's a public image problem.




my thoughts exactly.
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 6:56:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Steve_in_PA:
Sorry, but there has to be a violation of a crime in order for you to be charged.

In PA, you can not charge somoene with a crime, if there has been no violation. Its not up to the judge to decide, the officer better have PC for charging you.

If the story told is true then someone has their head up their butt.




this is DPD we are talking about. It is par for the course.
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 7:05:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ClayP:
AR-15 in car =

CCW in car =



Yes i always have an AR in the truck..

i have had the handgun in there since Sept 1st.. simply cause i believed i could...


now i am more confused .


thanks for the discussion ..


leaving to work now,,

be advised I can hear the freezing rain outside.. so if you are going out be carefull .. it is only going to get colder..


Link Posted: 12/7/2005 7:07:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2005 7:11:42 AM EDT by cluster]

Originally Posted By DzlBenz:
So, when you go pay the ticket, if a clerk at the door asks to see your receipt, what's gonna happen?



draw down...


BUT only from the outside of the building since I cant carry inside..



ETA

wait I cant carry OUTSIDE cause i have no CHL..

but if the clerk is at the door then I can draw down from the stoplight!!



cluster < thealwayslawabiding>
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 7:44:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DVDTracker:
The new law doesn't make it leagl to carry concealed in a carry without a CHL. It's just a defense from prosecution. This has been hashed to death in the TX forum. They can still arrest you, but getting a conviction is a whole 'nother matter.

www.concealedhandgun.com/newlaw.htm



That's a meaningless distinction. Something is either illegal or it is not. The new law states that so long as you are not a criminal, etc.... you are presumed to be traveling and therefore lawfully carrying a weapon. Moreover, in order to overcome the presumption the law specifically states that you have to negate the facts leading to the presumption. This means that if you are a good citizen, the cop should have no cause to believe you have committed a crime. Unfortunately, however, the new law is written in a somewhat confusing manner and it will take some test cases before the PD's stop trying to arrest everyone with a gun.
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 7:56:57 AM EDT
Yeah, but down here in harris county(Houston for those outside texas) the DA has stated he will prosecute anyone caught with a handgun in there car concelaed unless they have a CHL. his reasoning being that the new law is BS and he wants to challenge it.
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 9:46:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cluster:
no biggie..


had a headlight out..... was working when i left where i was and not working when he pulled me over..

waited while he ran me.. im clean..


this was a rare time that i have not taken adavntage of the new texas law that allows in car carry of a handgun without a CHL.

why was i not carrying? i went to the range today and cleaned all the weapons i fired and it didnt make it back in the truck. which turned out to be a god thing in this case.


this is what happened.

he walked up to the truck.. asked for DL and INS and in the same breath asked if i had any weapons on me..

i said yes . I have an AR15 behind the seat. < didnt fire that when i went to the range so it didnt get offloaded from the truck and cleaned.>

he didnt flinch just thanked me for informing him and asked me to keep my hands on the wheel and not reach for anything until he came back.. cool no big deal i understand the reasoning for that.

when he did come back i was informed the reason was the headlight and i signed my ticket. < didnt say it was working a minute ago.... just said i understand officer and signed. >

As i was signing i asked if i could have "offical" clarification on a law..

he said sure , which one?

i mentioned the new law effective Sept 1 in TX that allows a handgun in a car as long as it concealed...

he said i dont care what it says i am looking out for my safety and the safety of other officers.. you will be going to jail and charged with having a concealed weapon.

at this point he was cool and talkitive.. so i said..

really even if the new law states I can?

he stated he had to look out for his safety and he would not tolerate someone he pulled over to have a weapon and no CHL..

I presented the senerio that if i did have one < clarified that i didnt > but if i did and declared it when he stoped me.. what would be happening right now?

his response was that i would be disarmed and arrested and a judge would decide if the charge would stick.

this is the law i am talking about
THE BIGGEST CHANGE OF THE YEAR:

"Traveling" defined at last, almost, after more than 125 years
HB 823 -- Amends Penal Code 2.05, 46.15

Analysts at the NRA, along with the Texas State Rifle Association’s Legislative Committee describe these two new amendments this way:

“Texas H.B. 823 prevents the police from routinely arresting a law-abiding person who is transporting a concealed pistol in his motor vehicle. This is accomplished by clothing a law-abiding person with the presumption of being a traveler. The traveler presumption may be rebutted by the state by presenting proof beyond a reasonable doubt. In plain terms, a law-abiding person should have no problem transporting his pistol in a motor vehicle provided the pistol is concealed.”

Texas Attorney Sean Healy has an eight-page paper
attempting to describe the new situation, read it here <www.gunlaws.com/Texas-healy-traveling.htm


so basicly i would have declared when asked because since sept 1st I have been carrying.. < in the case under the seat. and yes it is always loaded. >

well.... now i am worried about puting the handgun back in the truck... sure i think I am right but i dont have the money for a lawyer to prove it in court..

would a print out of the law helped any?

I was nice he was nice and we had a good cinversation but in the end he said i would be going to jail if i did what i think the new law allows me to do.




This was a Dallas cop, and he gave you a ticket for a headlight out????? (Sigh)....if his badge number starts with an 8, or high 7 (of four digits) he's a new officer and doesn't know what he's talking about. It could be argued that there's gray area there where he could have arrested you if you had a handgun concealed in the car, but as I've studied this law it seems that a reasonable and prudent officer should gather that possessing the gun alone, and NOT ENGAGED IN CRIMINAL ACTIVITY would constitute a false arrest.

I'm still reeling over the fact that you got a ticket for a headlight out.
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 9:51:14 AM EDT
Most large metropolitan cities have a very negative opinion of armed citizens. It wouldn't suprise me if DFW area falls into this trap.

That is why I moved from the big city.
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 11:27:58 AM EDT
Damn, so are cops above the law?

Sounds like another reason for more people to get CHLs.
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 2:41:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2005 2:43:14 PM EDT by cluster]

Originally Posted By ryann:
This was a Dallas cop, and he gave you a ticket for a headlight out????? (Sigh)....if his badge number starts with an 8, or high 7 (of four digits) he's a new officer and doesn't know what he's talking about. It could be argued that there's gray area there where he could have arrested you if you had a handgun concealed in the car, but as I've studied this law it seems that a reasonable and prudent officer should gather that possessing the gun alone, and NOT ENGAGED IN CRIMINAL ACTIVITY would constitute a false arrest.

I'm still reeling over the fact that you got a ticket for a headlight out.




just looked on the ticket .

first number is a 6. < a mid 6 series. >

and yes i got a ticket for a headlight..
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 2:45:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cluster:
and yes i got a ticket for a headlight..



Musta acted like a jerk. It has to be your fault.
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