[ARCHIVED THREAD] - My Lai Massacre (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 10/24/2005 10:40:30 PM EDT
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I just finished reading the Courts Martial records of Lt. Calley and the rest of the participants of the My Lai Massacre as well as other records and testamony. Calley seemed to act as though what he did was happening all over Vietnam. It was interesting to say the least. But, I don't think for one second that what he did was the status quo over there. Why he wasn't shot is beyond my comprehension. This is one time I think Nixon screwed up by granting him a pardon. Anyway, anyone else ever study this black eye in American history? |
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Yea, I believe it was Burket's book "STOLEN VALOR" that focused on some of the never brought to public elements that fueled the "masacre". IIRC that unit was mutted up with a compilation of "problem" replacements from various other units to replenish it. And from what I understand, it was a couple of circling hueys with pissed off doorgunners that put a stop to it too. Also, that unit had been getting chewed up by boobytraps everytime they came through in the previous weeks and the "inocent" vilagers never ever once managed to accidentally set one off. 100 degree heat + 19 yo kids w/16s + buddies getting wasted every day + bad attitudes & flared tempers = a recipe for dissaster |
He gave orders to kill approx 500 unarmed Vietnamese women and children in a village and then burn it down. He personally participated in much of the killing. His defense was that he was given orders by Capt. Medina to kill on contact and that he only killed two that he thought were a threat. Some photographer that was with them took pictures of something totally different. He actually threw an infant in a ditch and then opened fire going through several magazines... You ought to read up on it. It is truly a black eye in American history. Hopefully never to be repeated.. |
liberals liberals, communists communists, rar rar rar! Vietnam was a big mess for everyone. At least this country has the balls to own up to it. To deny we made mistakes would be like the North Vietnamese smiling and saying, "inhumane prisoner abuse? what prisoner abuse?" This country holds itself to higher standards. |
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I read Tim O'briens book "If I Die In a Combat Zone" years ago. He was in the same division in the same area. His account gave good insight into the psychology that lead up to that event. Endless patrols through villages that were hostile toward the Americans or complacent toward the enemy's presense. Rare chances to engage the enemy, but constant causualties from boobie traps and snipers. Not an excuse for the behavior, but just a glimpse into the frustrations that can cause things like that to happen. |
Who is denying The My Lai incident took place? The types of people that I referred to would have us believe that if it happened once, it happened a thousand times and that simply isn't true. The vast majority of Americans who served in Vietnam, served honorably and have nothing to be ashamed of. People who used the My Lai incident to further their political agendas by portraying Vietnam veterans as crazed baby killers, spitting on them, throwing urine and feces on them, rioting, burning down buildings and using their celebrity status to gain support for our enemies have nothing to be proud of. They are held to no standard at all. |
Countless men and women served with valor and honor in 'Nam, but like we all know, all it takes is a few rotten apples to spoil the barrel or at least make all the apples in the barrel look bad. This event did happen and was documented, and maybe a few civilians were killed in undocumented incidents... No one knows, and no one will ever know, so no one is running around saying that everyone in Nam was a baby killing maniac and using this incident to further their political agenda. Not since the 60s... Also, Snopes.com actually busts all the myths of these liberals out of hell you speak about. Suprised me too, since i've been hearing about the evil hippies that spat on soldiers ever since I can remember. So this throwing urine, feces, riotting, burning seems just a little exaggerated?  Vietnam veterans overall are given the respect they deserve IMHO. People have realized that many were just young kids put into a really shitty situation. That's why the draft was repealled, why the voting age was cut back to 18, and a momument erected in their honor. LBJ gets most of the blame these days (yay democratic president  ), but strangely, I have a special place in my heart for LBJ because he wanted to focus on domestic issues and Vietnam was kind of handed to him and blew up in his face. Imagine that, a southern leader who was genuinely concerned for social welfare and equality and actively instituted socially progressive movements. Could use some more right now... |
NOT 'understandable'… only chickenshit 'soldiers' kill babies. MACV Pocket Card, THE ENEMY IN YOUR HANDS 1.) Handle him firmly, promptly, but humanely. The captive must be disarmed, searched, secured and watched. But he must also be treated at all times as a human being. He must not be tortured, killed, mutilated, or degraded, even if he refuses to talk. If the captive is a woman, treat her with all respect due her sex. 2.) Take the captive quickly to security. As soon as possible evacuate the captive to a place of safety and interrogation designated by your commander. Military documents taken from the captive are also sent to the interrogators, but the captive will keep his personal equipment except weapons. 3.) Mistreatment of any captive is a criminal offense. Every soldier is personally responsible for the enemy in his hands. It is both dishonorable and foolish to mistreat a captive. It is also a punishable offense. Not even a beaten enemy will surrender if he knows his captors will torture or kill him. He will resist and make his capture more costly. Fair treatment of captives encourages the enemy to surrender. 4.) Treat the sick and wounded captive as best you can. The captive saved may be an intelligence source. In any case he is a human being and must be treated like one. The soldier who ignores the sick and wounded degrades his uniform. 5.) All persons in your hands, whether suspects, civilians, or combat captives, must be protected against violence, insults, curiosity, and reprisals of any kind. Leave punishment to the courts and judges. The soldier shows his strength by his fairness and humanity to the persons in his hands. (September 1967) |
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Some of you will remember when the movie "Platoon" came out. Do you remember hearing stories about how real it was and how Nam vets shouldn't see it alone? How vets were freaking out in theatres? Hollywood wanted to portray our soldiers in a bad light just like John Kerry did in 1971 and continues to do today. Platoon may be a good movie for shoot-em-ups, but in reality, it was very anti-Vietnam Vet. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree in the Sheen family... |
I understand where Hoppy was coming from. These men faced someone in their company dying everyday from sniper fire and land mines that were set by these villagers. They were frustrated and scared. And, not the whole company was involved. Only about 3 or 4 out of the bunch. One of the guys ended up committing suicide in 1992 from the guilt. No doubt he's in a worse place as he should be. |
No, he married a daughter of a Jewelry Store owner and has since inherited it. He's in Georgia. You can get the exact address of William L. Calley off of Zaba Search, but why waste your time on that slimeball... |
If they had only shot adults and teens that 'might' be some defence, but I doubt many babies were laying mines or sniping at patrols. ANdy |
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Some folks can't handle combat and you'll never know who they are until they're thrown in the fight. Just because you didn't get cut down doesn't mean you weren't a casualty. If you're at the point were you can justify dumping a mag into a baby, it's safe to say you're a casualty. |
Nobody has tried to excuse his actions. They were deplorable to say the least. What we're saying is, where the frustration may have come from as inexcusable as it was. |
Agreeing with and understanding are two different things. I think what happened was deplorable, but I can understand the savagery that may have been the result of conditions at the time. |
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I was too young for VN by a couple of years but I still remember much of what was being reported on the nightly news, unfortunately it was much the same then as it is now, the 'Media' has always gone for the 'sensational' slant to every story. Credibility, as is now was in short supply, back then war news wasn't exactly beamed in to your living room 'live' as it often is now. However one thing that you can bet is just as true today as it was back then is, we are still not getting the 'whole' story. My Lai was certainly as bad as many have said it to be, I remember seeing the pictures of the bodies laying in a trench covered in lye, I also remember the look on the faces of the surviving villagers who were photographed after the slaughter, (to call it an 'incident' is an insult) faces still filled with terror of the Americans and the jurnalists. The 'true story' is known, but just as is the case today many of the facts are not disclosed to the public. In my opinion this is done to 'shield' many of the 'higher up' Generals and Commanders who knew all too well what happened or was happening. One of the 'blackest eyes' in my opinion is that Lt. Calley was the highest ranking officer to ever be charged in that cluster fuck, if it was a case of poor leadership as has been alleged were Calley's Superiors not responsible for his actions?? Surely as is the case of Abu Gharabe (sp) today it is inconceivable that these individuals acted alone, 'without' orders or supervision. And just like My Lai why is it that only one lowly Prvt. (England) was hung out to dry?? Yes others have been allowed to 'Plead out' or retire, but as was the case then, only the very most 'junior' were truely held responsible, we have not heard of any CIA agents or Generals brought on charges, as far as I'm concerened the argument that they did not know what was happening in their very own command is a pile of bullshit!!! Yes, the General in command was made to retire, but she will never spend one day in prison!! And that in my opinion is BULLSHIT!!!.........  ETA: For the record I do not believe Abu Gharaib to be on the same level of conduct as My Lai, as far as I'm concerned it does not even qualify as 'torture' in my book. To see real torture you would have to look toward the ROPers for that!!! |
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The Army would like you to believe it was a renegade Lt./platoon out of control. It was a planned op. The Battalion was tasked with finding a VC Main Force Div. believed to be operating in the area. They received info from a CIA operative that some of the VC were in My Lai. The operative's previous info/behavior had discredited him with most people, but they did not question, no recon, nothing. The day before, the Btn. was on stand down and there was a funeral ceremony for a 1SG who had been killed by a "sniper" 2 days earlier. The theme of the speeches at the ceremony was revenge. After the ceremony all the officers met for several hours. They took a break for eve chow and the senior NCO's were told to get everyone ready for an op/raid. After chow the officers met again. No records/minutes of these meetings were ever found. Cpt Medina's company was to raid My Lai. Lt Calley's platoon was to go through the hamlet while the other 2 platoons were to surround it. SOP. Calley and a couple of the Sgt's immediately ordered everyone to start killing. About half the troops participated. The rest held back, went off into the woods and hid, etc. Several had confrontations with the NCO's but refused to participate. No one tried to stop it. 300+ women, children, a few old men were killed After the killing started, the helo pilot did set down and spoke to Calley. Was not able to stop it. He was able to stop a squad advancing on a bunker/shelter at the edge of the hamlet where some women & children had fled to. He did set down a third time and rescued a child from a plie of bodies. He made a verbal report over the radio and filed a written report, but did not follow up. An Army photographer was there and he recorded everything. He had Army issued camera/film and his own camera/film. He kept photos he believed were his. He showed those photos, and told the story, to many people/groups over the next 2 years. No one ever objected. The best evidence that it was a planned op is that at the same time, another company was doing the same thing at another hamlet a few klicks away, called My Khe I believe. It was a smaller hamlet and about 150 were killed. No photog/reporter was present. The Army has always refered to the actions that day as one 'incident", refered to as "My Lai", and most people do not know about the second hamlet/Company. After Ron Ridenhour reported the incident to US officials there was an investigation and Courts Martial proceedings, starting with the NCO's. They were not convicted and everything was dropped. Ridenhour went public with the story. I know that the Colonel (and I believe the Major) involved had been killed by then. Many others were out of the army and the decision was made not to pursue them. Double jeopardy applied to the NCO's. That left Calley. Frustration was mentioned by some during the investigations. The whole Div. arrived in Dec. '67. It was manned primarily by RA troops transfered from the States, Europe, etc. They were already po'd. Because of this Btn's mission they did not do "normal" search and destroy missions. Their casualties were no heavier than any other unit, less than many. One of the biggest incidents which resulted in casualties was caused by Calley's mistake/incompetence. It was planned op. The Army did not want to admit that. |
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Would it have been better off if the photographer was never there or just shut up about the incident? I remember some guys here asking why a photographer was in Abu Ghraib (sp) was even there. Or the time the Marine put an extra round in some ROP'er when he was already on the floor as an added precaution was filmed. I understand there is a profound difference between torture and murder. But, do you think the war would have been different for our guys if My Lai never surfaced? Do you think incidents like those and John Kerry's testamony changed the hearts and minds of Americans towards the negative with regards to their own countrymen? Many atrocities happened in WWII also, but the nation was very much behind our men and women. Something to think about.... Did Vietnam cause America to lose it's patriotism? Was that the turning point? |
Libs hate war period. They just use incidents like this to get the end they are hoping for...a US loss. We killed tens of thousands of civilians in Germany and Japan in WW2, and I'm glad we did because I got to see my grandfather as a kid (marine in the Pacific). I'm sure some future grandkids would have loved for Bush to use some heavy city bombing in this Iraq "war" rather than driving around waiting on IEDs... War is a bitch, civilians will die, babies too... |
Hoo boy.  You want to know what the end result of LBJ's "Great Society"  Look at New Orleans - that is where "progressive" gets you. |
Study it? Hell, I remember when there was nothing but that, on the radio and TV. It was one of those rare things that can really divide a nation. At the time, people were really getting bent out of shape about it. One of the strange things I remember was the fact that the VC were doing this to their own people, and getting away with it, but when we did it, we got called murderers. The left was really in control of the media, and they were pouring it on. Do I think Calley and Medina were guilty? Yes. Do I blame them? No not really. |
Read that as well. And I agree with with what you've said. Did you read "The Things They Carried" by any chance? |
I am Vietnamese, my father was a captain in the South VN navy, heard about it when I was young in VN, I read about the My Lai massaccre when I was growing up in the U.S. Very sad, and in War, shit do happen. Few disgusting bad apples don't make the whole U.S. forces baby & women killers... As for villagers being complacements toward the VCs, if they co-operated w/ U.S. forces, the VCs would come in at night or day when U.S. forces are not there, and retaliate, kind of like what the terrorists/insurgents are doing w/ civilians in Iraq if they co-operated. Many villagers were kind of like in a lose-lose situation, help U.S. forces, get killed by VCs, don't co-operate w/ U.S forces, they were treated like VCs... VCs considered villagers as if you're not pro-VCs, then you're a traitors, you can't be in the middle.  |
You were taught well. However, the problem was most tried to be "in the middle". Not enough were willing to take a position. I believe most Vietnamese, who were not dedicated communists, assumed we would never leave. |