[ARCHIVED THREAD] - question for LEOs (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 10/16/2005 5:58:47 PM EDT
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You get a call. There's Joe Homeowner holding a smoking gun. on the deck in Joe's house is someone, two in the X-ring. Dead. An ID check on the dead guy proves he is of questionable character.(read thug) Describe the hassle Joe Homeowner is going to face. I know this is geographical, but tell it from where you are working. |
Damn, what did you do now???? 
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I AM NOT LEO If he actually has a gun . . . then you are probably facing very little hassle in KY. No weapon? Hope you have deep pockets and know the best lawyers. Shot him in the back? Better have OJ's phone # and be able to get your wife to mail you condoms cause you will probably face at least some time in PMITA prison. Once the guy tries to leave, you can no longer Just remember . . . only the guy who is still breathing gets to tell his story to the cops. If you didn't unload the whole first magazine then you were not really scared. 
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In my county if Joe can demonstrate that he was acting in defense of himself or of another (or fear there of) and there are no aggravators or evidence that the shoot is anything other than what it appears then he gets presented to a Grand Jury and no billed. We were out actively looking for a very prolific burglar we had IDd about a year ago and make it to his ex wife's house. She is crying and said, y'all are quick, I just got off of the phone with _____ PD. We had no idea WTF she was talking about and she said, "They just told me ____ had been killed over there." Well we haul on over there and what do you know, Shitbag had been in a home and was surprised by the homeowner. He shoved him down as he walked in his front door and ran to his truck next door. Homeowner retrieves his 870 and lets loose about 4 slugs as Shitbag speeds off. Several enter the truck, one through the driver's door, through the door panel and into Shitbag's left thigh/hip. He makes it about 2 miles to a Doc in a Box and dies in their parking lot. Damn shame, let me tell you. The homeowner? No billed and good to go. Living in the Heart of Dixie offers some great benefits. One being sensible justice all in all. I have worked 3 other serious use of force situations with civillians acting in self defense that went just as they should have. |
piccolo, you are priceless, thank you for the chuckle!  ETA: Not that this has any relevance but, yesterday's training session. Six recruits showed, after the basic normal pleasantries, my next response was, you see those wood berms? They nodded in agreement. I said, that is where we bury our mistakes! Silence befell the range. (other than the crew). |
Something in his hand and he didn't know what it was, so he shoots the guy? |
You wanna wait to find out this stranger has just a bottle of whiskey? Or a .38? Maybe an icepick? How long do you wait to defend yourself when you do not know if he came intending mayhem? |
You are only legally authorized to use deadly physical force when you reasonably believe your own life or that of a third party is in immediate risk of death or serious physical injury. Given that, you's better have some sort of idea what the threat you are facing consists of. Don't like the timeframe you are given to make that call? welcome to the world of LE decision making. |
on homeowner's property. non-LEO advice: S.S.S. |
Ah. So in your mind simple trespass authorizes deadly physical force? The TX crowd aside ( who always chirp up about being able to shoot trespassers at night based on a TX law thats never been judicially reviewed), think again. |
"never been judicially reviewed" hmm,,, one reason is that it never makes it to court .. "simple trespass" you call someone in my home at o dark 30 "simple trespass" ? they are in your home to kill you and rape your wife. sit around and sing and hold hands with him if you want.. ETA: wait, i seem to be from the "TX crowd" ... opps |
You said "on the property". You did NOT say "in the house" until your last post. Even being in the house, you need to be able to explain how you were in some sort of fear or death or serious physical injury to explain why you fired. Now you can read their minds to know why the unidentified person is there? Go ahead and assume, but don't think you KNOW unless you are reacting to a verbalized or otherwise indicated threat besides simple presence. |
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got to post this... not even IN the house... just on the property. gotta love texas Intruder killed by resident of home (TX) Montgomery County Courier ^ | 08/21/2005 Posted on 08/21/2005 8:38:27 PM PDT by Mr. Mojo A home invasion on Friday night left one man dead and police trying to determine his identity. It was around 1 a.m. when the Montgomery County Sheriff's Office received a call regarding a shooting in the 14200 block of Wildwood Drive in the Lake Wildwood subdivision. According to Lt. Darrel Conn, with the MCSO detectives division, officers arrived to find a Hispanic male lying in the yard dead from an apparent gunshot wound. Conn said the home is owned by an elderly man and his wife, who were home when the dead man allegedly decided to walk in. He said the homeowner told officers he was awake playing video games when an unknown male holding a beer bottle walked into the home through the front door. He is described as a Hispanic male, between 30 and 35. The homeowner confronted the man and told him to get out of his house. Conn says the intruder went outside, but remained on the premises and went to the back yard. He says the homeowner then retrieved a revolver from inside the house before going outside to look around his property. When the elderly man discovered the intruder in the backyard, a struggle ensued and the intruder was shot at least once in the chest. Conn says the dead man had only one piece of identification on his person, which does not appear to be his. There was no immediate way of determining his identity. The homeowner will not face charges. not even in the home.. just on the property.... yes we texans can and do do this.. |
Well, time and again it has been decided that creeping around in the dark in someone elses house with something in your hand is a bit threatening... |
| First off; when I/we arrive, I hope Joe isnt actually HOLDING the "smoking gun", because Joe is going to be face down, cuffed, and then he'll be answering some questions before we go any further. So the bottom line is that a victim/homeowner has just protected his home/family from an intruder which ended in a death. In Fl. he has a new statute that protects him and for the most part would be justified. His weapon will be placed into evidence (yes; he's gonna lose it for a little while), incident report will be filed, and he will try to go about his business. Theres always some kind of follow up, etc. Then he will probably require therapy before he ever gets a good nights rest which could be quite some time. |
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and another.. the guy FOLLOWED them and shot hem... pls stop telling this does not happen in TX Local resident shoots intruder [South Texas] Corpus Christi Caller-Times ^ | October 6, 2005 | Sara Lee Fernandez Posted on 10/07/2005 3:03:27 PM PDT by SwinneySwitch Man's wife and children had been tied up by robbers A Corpus Christi man shot and wounded one of several intruders who tied up his wife and small children and ransacked his home early Wednesday morning, police said. Frank Pizzini, 23, told police he and his wife were sleeping at their home in the 4700 block of Mokry Drive when he heard a crash at his front door about 3:15 a.m. Police reported that as Pizzini went to the door to confront three men wearing hoods or ski masks, his wife rolled off their bed onto the floor and called 911. "They threatened Mr. Pizzini," Police Cmdr. Mike Walsh said. "They asked for guns, jewelry, money and the keys to the car." Walsh said Pizzini got into a struggle with the men while his wife and children were taped up. "They spent a short while ransacking the house, then ran out the back door," Walsh said. He said Pizzini followed the men, picked up a pistol one of the invaders dropped near Pizzini's property and fired several shots, hitting one man in the leg. Andres Aleman, 24, who is on probation for aggravated robbery, was arrested and treated for a bullet wound in his leg, police said. A bond for Aleman, who was under guard at Christus Spohn Hospital Memorial late Wednesday, was set at $100,000. Walsh said a pistol and two shotguns were recovered at the scene as well as a Chrysler minivan reported stolen in May that might be connected to the crime. Contact Sara Lee Fernandez at 886-3767 or HYPERLINK mailto:[email protected] fernandezs@caller. |
You do realize that theres more to that story than simply someone standing on another persons property. You DO realize that, right? The dead guy came INTO the house first, wouldn't leave when told to do so...etc. Much more than simple trespass involved there. Same with your second story |
when i am the only one breathing .... the story WILL go my way.. |
yes.. no one is saying shoot the mailman cause he is on your yard... i am responding to the senerio of " I open my bedroom door and there is someone there.. " yes that gets a bang... bang... bang .. bang... bang... bang... hope i am clear now.. |
You're from NY right? It's not the same in the south pal, not at all. 
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that exactly the issue... i havent heard of somone doing time for shoting an intruder in his house at 3 am. armed or not... you are in the house... you just punched your ticket.. I cant imagine it anyother way... there is no "test case" who is going to arrest you, charge you .. and try you for shooting an intruder in your house at 3 am? who? < betting someone will post a link to one to shut me up  > eta: who in Tx? again im sure someone will post a link.
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Like I said, you're from NY. It's honestly evident in your posts. Not a flame, just true. Here in the south we value the right to self defence so much we have laws to prevent us from ever reaching court. If someone pokes his head in my room at night, I dont have to ask him who he is or what he wants. If he doesnt belong there I can legally assume he means to kill me or do me grievous bodily harm and that is grounds for use of lethal force here in Florida. |
you really think i will have legal bills for shoting a guy in my house at 3 am !.. I dont understand that.. i really dont.. my wife and two kids will not let me ask the guy outside of my daughters room at 3 am if he is going to steal her bike from here room.... kill her... or just rape her... again i dont UNDERSTAND the mentality that i will have legal bills for shooting an intruder in my house at 3 am .. |
While I don't have the DPF legal memory of, say, Mas Ayoob, you could in most places at least expect to be going to the Grand Jury, even if it goes no further and you are no billed. Or you could be entirely right in the shooting and face criminal charges for some other offense that came to in the investigation. Cases like THAT has been the subject of threads here in the not-so-distant past. There are PLENTY of test cases involving the use of DPF. Just read Ayoobs articles every month on American Handgunner, or take one of his legal courses to grasp that fact. I get the idea that you seriously rest on the assumption that 'they'd never do that'. All it takes is a DA who feels the law and the facts of the case are on their side and are willing to take the case to trial. Maybe you should keep a lawyer on retainer just in case. |
| In Oregon, the law says you can use deadly physical force if you have probable cause to believe the bad guy is committing or attempting to commit a burglary in your dwelling. He doesn't have to have a weapon or be a deadly threat to you. Most states recognize that someone breaking into your house in the wee hours is totally different from a salesman who refuses to get off your front porch. THAT is simple trespass. Breaking into someone's house while they're asleep is not. I for one would have no trouble convincing a grand jury that a guy who breaks into my house at 3 AM was probably looking to do more than simply sit in my easy chair. Whether or not this homeowner would be arrested and/or indicted would vary widely from state to state. As has already been said, articulation is the key. |
wow you hit the nail on the head... I guess i do realize that I bank on the assumtion that " no one will charge me for killing a guy in my house at 3 am outside my kids room " but damn .. thats just the way it is.. alright folks... who in TX is that type of DA? and how the hell did they get in that spot.? back to you TC556 .. name that law that would stop you as a father from offing the guy that you see entering your daughters room at 3 am... ? would you really tackle him and call the cops? i fear your answer is " yes.. " |
It really is geographical and you dont understand how it is down here. I read cases in the paper all the time like this and nobody gets charged. No one, not in a case like that. As of Oct 1st in Florida we will now be immune from civil prosecution as well. You dont get to read my local papers so you have no idea what it's like here. It happens all the time and no one ever gets charged.
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| O.K.I am not an LEO.But I do hope to play one on T.V. one day.So I am probably better suited than anyone to answer this question.(kidding)I guess it depends on the jurisdiction and whatever mitigating circumstances there are.Of course there will be the question of was there the fear of the loss of live by the homeowner or family member?Was there actually a weapon in the dead intruders hand?Dosen't have to be a gun,could be a knife.Did you warn the intruder that you were armed and would use deadly force if he did not leave.(If he's dead,he can't say you didn't. |
see this is really the choice I deeply belive i would face... "do i clean the carpet or just go ahead and get that hardwood floor ive been thinking about... " not.. " wow hope i dont go to jail cause i shot the guy... i mean he didnt really rape her... sure his dick was out and in his hand,, but i didnt give him the chance to actually rape her so in reality he commited no crime... what did i do!!!! i should of just dailed 911" no.. that above thought will never cross my mind... bang... bang... bang... bang... and hope i am not late for work.. cant imagaine it anyother way. school me if im wrong |