A. From the article:

Police Chief Ronal Serpas said Friday that [1] effective immediately, Tasers will be used by police supervisors only. Also, [2]beginning Saturday, the supervisors will receive training on how to use them.

Am I the only one who sees a little problem here?

B. It is true (based on my reading, at least) that a tremendous portion of the people who die after being tased are drunk and/or stoned. However, a tremendous portion of the people who have dealings with the police, and an even larger portion of the one who show their asses while doing so, are drunk and/or stoned. If Tasers are lethal to some people, and those people are the ones most likely to get tased, then using the devices is borrowed trouble, unless you want to kill the customers.

C. The biggest problem I see with Tasers is the way they are integrated into departmental use-of-force matrices. Lots of guys on here have said that in their organizations, the Taser comes after verbal commands and before physical contact. I seem to recall on officer saying that it came before, for example, grabbing a suspect by the collar or arm and pulling him in the desired direction. It seems to me that the reasonable way to use them (which probably ends up being described in the same terms) is as a substitute not for physical contact or force, but for physical violence. If your next step is going to be hitting the BG with a baton, flashlight, or fist in order to gain compliance or avoid beuing attacked, a Taser is a reasonable substitute. I don't think the Taser is a reasonable alternative to pulling a noncompliant suspect out of a car by his arm or hair.

Maybe NO will hire Serpas back???? One thing the article maybe didn't mention, the guy who died was fueled on LSD. He also stripped nekkid while jousting with the po-po. Not that *I* have ever done it, but I would imagine it's hard to grapple with a sweaty nekkid man & cuff him??? Not to mention one whacked out on acid??? What I did find funny is, his girlfriend & brother said he never drugs other than "maybe pot". Yeah, right. Chlorine in the gene pool, as far as I'm concerned.

Hopefully he will go back to NO. That will not be a big loss here.
As far as the man fool that lost his life, drugs ,I feel, were the real culprit in his death.

Quoted: This debate will never end. It looks like Nashvile isnt the only one who is doing this. From the news last night it seems that there are approx two dozen dept. nationwide that have quite useing them. NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) -- Police are restricting the use of Tasers in the aftermath of the death of a young man who died after being shocked with them 19 times. Police Chief Ronal Serpas said Friday that effective immediately, Tasers will be used by police supervisors only. Also, beginning Saturday, the supervisors will receive training on how to use them. Patrick Lee, 21, was shocked into submission by Nashville patrol officers a week ago after being kicked out of a bar and stripping nude. He died two days later at a hospital. Serpas said the department is involved in two nationwide studies on the use of Tasers and guidelines on how they should be used. Lee is the second person to die in Nashville after police used Tasers, which were introduced to the department in November. Walter Lamont Seats died in May after police subdued him with a Taser shock, but an autopsy revealed that he choked on a plastic bag of cocaine that he attempted to swallow. Lee's family's attorney, Tommy Overton, said a private autopsy indicated that the Taser contributed to his death. The official autopsy is awaiting further toxicology tests, police said. Officers quoted Lee as saying he had taken drugs, and they said they found five doses of LSD and some marijuana in his belongings.

And they have just ensured that they will have more officer and suspect injuries.

The Taser isn't a toy by any stretch of the imagination.

It is, however, a reliable less lethal device that has repeatedly prevented the use of deadly force.

Like any tool, training with the Taser seems to be below par, and intelligent thought about its place in the UOF policies doesn't seem to have taken place. (It ought to be ranked under baton use)

As a result, a good tool is being taken out of LEO's hands.

Wonderful.

Quoted: A. From the article: Police Chief Ronal Serpas said Friday that [1] effective immediately, Tasers will be used by police supervisors only. Also, [2]beginning Saturday, the supervisors will receive training on how to use them. Am I the only one who sees a little problem here? B. It is true (based on my reading, at least) that a tremendous portion of the people who die after being tased are drunk and/or stoned. However, a tremendous portion of the people who have dealings with the police, and an even larger portion of the one who show their asses while doing so, are drunk and/or stoned. If Tasers are lethal to some people, and those people are the ones most likely to get tased, then using the devices is borrowed trouble, unless you want to kill the customers. C. The biggest problem I see with Tasers is the way they are integrated into departmental use-of-force matrices. Lots of guys on here have said that in their organizations, the Taser comes after verbal commands and before physical contact. I seem to recall on officer saying that it came before, for example, grabbing a suspect by the collar or arm and pulling him in the desired direction. It seems to me that the reasonable way to use them (which probably ends up being described in the same terms) is as a substitute not for physical contact or force, but for physical violence. If your next step is going to be hitting the BG with a baton, flashlight, or fist in order to gain compliance or avoid beuing attacked, a Taser is a reasonable substitute. I don't think the Taser is a reasonable alternative to pulling a noncompliant suspect out of a car by his arm or hair.

This was my question also....

So a guy standing there has a warrant.  You (the officer) say, "Turn around and put your hands behind your back."  He says, "no."  You then taser him, prongs sticking into him.  He falls to the ground and you wait the 5 seconds while the taser "does its thing".  You then say, "Put your hands behind you back."  He again says, "no."  You then re-administer the 5 second taser'ing as the prongs are still in him.  You then say, "Put your hands behind you back." He now sees the error in his decision making matrix and pulls his hands from beneath him and puts them behind his back.  You approach and cuff him wihtout further incident.

This is what the taser was designed for??  If so, I was waaaay off in what I expected when they were purchased and issued.  But this is the way I see it being done/used.

When I asked this exact question of a superior officer, he rolled his eyes and gave a sarcastic remark like I was some crazed left-wing pink-o to even question why we were using the crap out of the taser.  I mean there weren't that many physical confrontations to begin with so what are we exactly avoiding?  Also, I think the avoiding ANY physical contact with a suspect, while good in theory, is going to lead to a police force hesitant and in experienced with "hands-on" police work...which is often necessary.

Anyway, my .02$.


I'm sorry, that just seems too broad a policy on application.  

Tag to try to find my Jems article on tasers.

Quoted: As far as the man fool that lost his life, drugs ,I feel, were the real culprit in his death.

No, stupidity was, IMO. He had a long list of making bad decisions from what I've read. I can't figure out how such a loser got such a cute girlfriend?????  

Quoted: Also, I think the avoiding ANY physical contact with a suspect, while good in theory, is going to lead to a police force hesitant and in experienced with "hands-on" police work...which is often necessary.

Given the large numbers of females in LE these days, what did you honestly expect????

She was kinda cute.
At least one good thing come out of this, she is once again available.

I think they ought to get rid of all the tasers and issue slap sticks back to LEO's as part of their every day carry. They were issue in the 50-60's and need to make an re-appearance. Perp gets out of line "WHACK". Perp down.
Nothing like a 1/4 of lead shot in leather upside your temple to make you cooperate, eh.

As I am not a LEO, nor do I have first hand expertise in regards to tasers my opinion is worth next to nothing.

As such, my only gripe is not so much as to HOW it's used, but as to WHOM it's used on, we've all read the reports of elderly old women and some young kids getting zapped and I think that is pure bullshit. If a LEO can't subdue an old lady or a kid he or she is in the wrong line of  work.

As far as I'm concerned LEO's can light up drunks, druggies, and combative gangbangers to their hearts content, and should a few of these assholes die in the process, well 'STUPID' hurts!!! And sometime extreme stupidity brings you a Darwin award, in those cases, oh well it sucks to be them!!!...

I still remember the Rodney King ordeal, and at the time I will admitt to believing that the LEO's went overboard,(YES I saw the complete video, and saw the entire trial)

But now seeing that the behavior of King was not an isolated incident, and more and more these assholes and thugs have become more and more brazen in their disregard for public safety and the safety of the LEO's I have had a complete change in heart. Now I say fuck 'em and feed 'em buggers, drunks, druggies, lowlife thugs and bangers deserve every ounce of pain they receive!!!

Lite 'em up beat 'em down what ever it takes, sometimes THAT is the ONLY punishment these assholes will receive!!! The 'Justice' system is a joke, and is badly broken.

Life in prison rarely means life any more, and all too often some thug sentenced to death will die of old age or the 'shank' of another thug, and that is only if some liberal judge or incompetant prosecuter doesn't give them a slap on the wrist to begin with!!! It's time for America to get tough on real the real criminals again, murderers, rapists, and baby rapers need to die!!! Career criminals need to be locked away until they no longer pose a threat to society, if that means 'real' life in prison, then so be it.......

As I am not a LEO, nor do I have first hand expertise in regards to tasers my opinion is worth next to nothing. As such, my only gripe is not so much as to HOW it's used, but as to WHOM it's used on, we've all read the reports of elderly old women and some young kids getting zapped and I think that is pure bullshit. If a LEO can't subdue an old lady or a kid he or she is in the wrong line of work. As far as I'm concerned LEO's can light up drunks, druggies, and combative gangbangers to their hearts content, and should a few of these assholes die in the process, well 'STUPID' hurts!!! And sometime extreme stupidity brings you a Darwin award, in those cases, oh well it sucks to be them!!!... I still remember the Rodney King ordeal, and at the time I will admitt to believing that the LEO's went overboard,(YES I saw the complete video, and saw the entire trial) But now seeing that the behavior of King was not an isolated incident, and more and more these assholes and thugs have become more and more brazen in their disregard for public safety and the safety of the LEO's I have had a complete change in heart. Now I say fuck 'em and feed 'em buggers, drunks, druggies, lowlife thugs and bangers deserve every ounce of pain they receive!!! Lite 'em up beat 'em down what ever it takes, sometimes THAT is the ONLY punishment these assholes will receive!!! The 'Justice' system is a joke, and is badly broken. Life in prison rarely means life any more, and all too often some thug sentenced to death will die of old age or the 'shank' of another thug, and that is only if some liberal judge or incompetant prosecuter doesn't give them a slap on the wrist to begin with!!! It's time for America to get tough on real the real criminals again, murderers, rapists, and baby rapers need to die!!! Career criminals need to be locked away until they no longer pose a threat to society, if that means 'real' life in prison, then so be it.......

WOW! That was a damn good opinion. I couldnt agree with you more.

Quoted: As such, my only gripe is not so much as to HOW it's used, but as to WHOM it's used on, we've all read the reports of elderly old women and some young kids getting zapped and I think that is pure bullshit. If a LEO can't subdue an old lady or a kid he or she is in the wrong line of  work.

Do you have any idea how easy it is to dislocate a shoulder on a kid or older person when grappling with them? Do you have any idea the amount of the lawsuit they will file after that happens?

No, I'm sure as hell not a LE apologist, but the Tazer is the best thing to come down the pike since hollowpoints, IMO.

What about net launchers?

Quoted: As I am not a LEO, nor do I have first hand expertise in regards to tasers my opinion is worth next to nothing. As such, my only gripe is not so much as to HOW it's used, but as to WHOM it's used on, we've all read the reports of elderly old women and some young kids getting zapped and I think that is pure bullshit. If a LEO can't subdue an old lady or a kid he or she is in the wrong line of  work. As far as I'm concerned LEO's can light up drunks, druggies, and combative gangbangers to their hearts content, and should a few of these assholes die in the process, well 'STUPID' hurts!!! And sometime extreme stupidity brings you a Darwin award, in those cases, oh well it sucks to be them!!!... I still remember the Rodney King ordeal, and at the time I will admitt to believing that the LEO's went overboard,(YES I saw the complete video, and saw the entire trial) But now seeing that the behavior of King was not an isolated incident, and more and more these assholes and thugs have become more and more brazen in their disregard for public safety and the safety of the LEO's I have had a complete change in heart. Now I say fuck 'em and feed 'em buggers, drunks, druggies, lowlife thugs and bangers deserve every ounce of pain they receive!!! Lite 'em up beat 'em down what ever it takes, sometimes THAT is the ONLY punishment these assholes will receive!!! The 'Justice' system is a joke, and is badly broken. Life in prison rarely means life any more, and all too often some thug sentenced to death will die of old age or the 'shank' of another thug, and that is only if some liberal judge or incompetant prosecuter doesn't give them a slap on the wrist to begin with!!! It's time for America to get tough on real the real criminals again, murderers, rapists, and baby rapers need to die!!! Career criminals need to be locked away until they no longer pose a threat to society, if that means 'real' life in prison, then so be it.......

You complaint certainly has merit, and while there are always circumstances that cannot be pre-conceptualized, think about something: Remember the hoopla here earlier this year when the 6 year old was tazed in the principles office? He had a chunk of glass to his own throat, threatening to kill himself. Could any LEO have crossed a room and snatched it away from him before he hurt himself? Tazer kept him from hurting himself.

Remember hearing about the guy in the wheelchair with a knife that got tazed? Dozens of ARFcom internet JBT's said they could have wrestled it away from him, there was no need to taze him. Would you rather stand back and zap a guy with a knife, or go hand-to-blade with him, just because his legs don't work?

Understand, I'm not taking you to task for you statement, for I do believe that maybe the tazer is overused, but I do caution you to take care in making such sweeping generalizations about its use.

On a side note, one of my friends got to use his tazer last week. He bragged last week that since he became a deputy over two years ago, he had never gotten in a fight, tazed anyone, or shot anyone. Next night, he had to fight and taze a dude. Just waiting on the shooting part now.

Wow I can't believe it!! I pretty much give LEO's Carte Blanch on using the zap-zap on murderers, rapists, gangbangers,beligerent drunks,  baby rapers, and pretty much all thugs in general and some of you are upset because I ask that discretion is used when it comes to old ladies and kids and paraplegics!!!!

Yeah, no wonder they want to take it away from you all, damn!!! What was I thinking!!!!...

Quoted: Wow I can't believe it!! I pretty much give LEO's Carte Blanch on using the zap-zap on murderers, rapists, gangbangers,beligerent drunks,  baby rapers, and pretty much all thugs in general and some of you are upset because I ask that discretion is used when it comes to old ladies and kids and paraplegics!!!! Yeah, no wonder they want to take it away from you all, damn!!! What was I thinking!!!!...

Understand something:

The Taser is NOT an implement of punishment.

It is a device designed to render a subject unable to resist or act for a few brief seconds to give police the opportunity to get the subject under control.

It was not designed to inflict pain on people.

It was designed FOR THE SAFETY OF THE PERSON BEING ARRESTED. Because of the Taser, there are people who were taken into custody without harm that previously would have been SHOT. There are people who were taken into custody without injury who previously would have been injured in a scuffle with police.

USING PHYSICAL FORCE TO BRING A SUBJECT INTO CUSTODY IS MORE LIKELY TO CAUSE INJURY TO THE SUBJECT AND THE OFFICER THAN THE USE OF THE TASER.

Thus when some of you macho-men talk about how the officer SHOULD have done things, you do so not realizing that in many instances the officer would have done more damage to the subject by using physical force over the taser. The example previously given about tasing the 6 year old who had a piece of sharp glass is a good one.

Lots of people whined and complained about that one. How could that JBT tase a 6 year old!! They, of course, haven't been in a situation like that and never will, so they have the luxury of being a disapproving bystander while the officer on scene had to DO something to try and save this kid. What should the officer have done? Tackle the kid?

No good. Use a baton? Also no good. In that instance, the Taser offered the responding officers a means of parylizing the child for a precious few seconds where he couldn't harm himself, and allowed them to get the glass away from him without doing ANY DAMAGE TO THE CHILD.

Some of you people seem to think the Taser is the cop's own legal punishment device and are CLUELESS about what it actually is supposed to do.

The Taser is designed to be used as a less lethal alternative to lethal force or to other force such as the baton. There are officers AND SUSPECTS who are alive and healthy today that otherwise would not be had a Taser not been in the hands of the officer.

Quoted: Quoted: As such, my only gripe is not so much as to HOW it's used, but as to WHOM it's used on, we've all read the reports of elderly old women and some young kids getting zapped and I think that is pure bullshit. If a LEO can't subdue an old lady or a kid he or she is in the wrong line of  work. Do you have any idea how easy it is to dislocate a shoulder on a kid or older person when grappling with them? Do you have any idea the amount of the lawsuit they will file after that happens? No, I'm sure as hell not a LE apologist, but the Tazer is the best thing to come down the pike since hollowpoints, IMO.

Bingo.

Ever had to bring an old lady wielding a knife into custody?

How do you go about it? How exactly are you supposed to deal with a 63 year old woman whose blood sugar has bottomed out and who has gotten hold of a butcher knife. She is completely irrational and is waving around a dangerous weapon.

What physical force would the chairborne rangers reccomend in a situation like that? I suppose many of them have the Kung-Fu grip and could disarm her with a quick move, but the rest of us human beings are faced with a real quandry. Using your weight or your baton could easily break bones in her, and her resistance could easily send her into breathing or heart problems. She could end up cutting herself or severely injuring the officer. If you get within striking range of the knife you may even be forced to use lethal force to stop her from harming you.

Or you can just Taze her from a safe distance, take the knife out of the picture while she is disoriented, and let the EMTs help the poor woman.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm curious as to how the use of a taser killed him two days later.  Methinks bullshit on this one. Well, it is not unheard of for an electrical shock to create an irregular heart beat. It is also not uncommon for it to be fatal after the incident. For instance, in the Navy if someone receives an electrical shock, no matter how slight, it's required that someone maintain a watch on them while they sleep for at least the first night. I never knew that! Dang I got shocked enough times to have a full time sailor watching me!

I had duty driver one day taking SN Doss to the hospital after an electrical shock. Not a fun night for the duty section. I learned early to not go to medical after a shock.

Quoted: Quoted: Wow I can't believe it!! I pretty much give LEO's Carte Blanch on using the zap-zap on murderers, rapists, gangbangers,beligerent drunks,  baby rapers, and pretty much all thugs in general and some of you are upset because I ask that discretion is used when it comes to old ladies and kids and paraplegics!!!! Yeah, no wonder they want to take it away from you all, damn!!! What was I thinking!!!!... Understand something: The Taser is NOT an implement of punishment. It is a device designed to render a subject unable to resist or act for a few brief seconds to give police the opportunity to get the subject under control. It was not designed to inflict pain on people. It was designed FOR THE SAFETY OF THE PERSON BEING ARRESTED. Because of the Taser, there are people who were taken into custody without harm that previously would have been SHOT. There are people who were taken into custody without injury who previously would have been injured in a scuffle with police. USING PHYSICAL FORCE TO BRING A SUBJECT INTO CUSTODY IS MORE LIKELY TO CAUSE INJURY TO THE SUBJECT AND THE OFFICER THAN THE USE OF THE TASER. Thus when some of you macho-men talk about how the officer SHOULD have done things, you do so not realizing that in many instances the officer would have done more damage to the subject by using physical force over the taser. The example previously given about tasing the 6 year old who had a piece of sharp glass is a good one. Lots of people whined and complained about that one. How could that JBT tase a 6 year old!! They, of course, haven't been in a situation like that and never will, so they have the luxury of being a disapproving bystander while the officer on scene had to DO something to try and save this kid. What should the officer have done? Tackle the kid? No good. Use a baton? Also no good. In that instance, the Taser offered the responding officers a means of parylizing the child for a precious few seconds where he couldn't harm himself, and allowed them to get the glass away from him without doing ANY DAMAGE TO THE CHILD. Some of you people seem to think the Taser is the cop's own legal punishment device and are CLUELESS about what it actually is supposed to do. The Taser is designed to be used as a less lethal alternative to lethal force or to other force such as the baton. There are officers AND SUSPECTS who are alive and healthy today that otherwise would not be had a Taser not been in the hands of the officer.

Yes I know the Tazer is not an impliment of punishment or torture but it is obviously being used as one by some LEO's,(also made obvious by the rising number of deaths since it's implimentation) in fact there was a case a while back where an inmate died while in custody inside the Maricopa County jail, not only was he in custody, he was strapped into a 'restraint' chair when they zapped him to death!!!!


Taken from 'The devil's chair (google)
Scott Norberg died in June 1996 in Arizona of what the Maricopa County Medical Examiner's Office called accidental "positional asphyxia" after he was pushed into a restraint chair, his head forced to his chest, shocked with a stun gun, and gagged. Maricopa County and its insurance carrier settled a wrongful death lawsuit with Norberg's family for $8.25 million in 1998.   www.angelfire.com/fl3/starke/devilchair.html
ETA: do a google for the coroners report and you'll see he was zapped numerous times while being restrained. The Maricopa CSO initially denied having zapped him at all!!!


So don't tell me that LEO's don't give a couple of extra jolts just for the hell of it!! Hell I've even seen it done on COPS on TV for the whole world to see. So it's kind of hard to convince me that a lot of LEO's aren't Tazer happy!!! (If this is not true then why is this discussion even possible??)

My point is, it seems like now that tazers are available, many LEO's have become like the 'Carpenter' who see's the hammer as the only solution for all problems. Surely your not going to tell me that all senile old ladies, and tantrum throwing kids actually succeeded in committing suicide or were injured by LEO's prior to the invention of Tazers are you???

Believe me I understand the advantage a Tazer might have in some of these situations, but you all need to understand that it is the 'Carpenter' mentality that is going to get this tool taken away from you all and when that happens you will have no one to blame but yourselves......

Quoted: You don't have to be rocket scientest to know if someone is on some sort of speed with their heart racing like a horse in a derby that a shock of any sort is life threatening.  Regardless of the cause, our police officers are not judge and jury and like it or not our system is still innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.   In this case, stoned out of his gord or not, show me a policy that says shock someone 19 times?  Stoned out of his gord or not, I wish I had the lawyers commission on this one.  All it takes is show a jury a film of someone tased then say "Now imagine 19 times." Tj

So if a person is all speeded up, what do you think wrestling around with them will do to their hear rate?

Again, if people only drop dead when shocked by a taser, if they have drugs in their system, is it the taser causing the death, or the drugs?

The police run into people that have OD'ed, that person is acting irrational due to the drugs.............

As far as 19 times, it sounds excessive to me. But how many people were chuckling about the "you fuckin' hammered me" video where the drunk driver gets zapped 8 times? And he still is "frisky" after those 8 shots.........................  

Quoted: Yes I know the Tazer is not an impliment of punishment or torture but it is obviously being used as one by some LEO's,(also made obvious by the rising number of deaths since it's implimentation) in fact there was a case a while back where an inmate died while in custody inside the Maricopa County jail, not only was he in custody, he was strapped into a 'restraint' chair when they zapped him to death!!!!

And for every abuse, we can point to dozens of cases where it was employed properly. Abuse of the tool doesn't make the tool illegitimate, unless you are a bradyite in thinking.

Taken from 'The devil's chair (google) Scott Norberg died in June 1996 in Arizona of what the Maricopa County Medical Examiner's Office called accidental "positional asphyxia" after he was pushed into a restraint chair, his head forced to his chest, shocked with a stun gun, and gagged. Maricopa County and its insurance carrier settled a wrongful death lawsuit with Norberg's family for $8.25 million in 1998.   www.angelfire.com/fl3/starke/devilchair.html ETA: do a google for the coroners report and you'll see he was zapped numerous times while being restrained. The Maricopa CSO initially denied having zapped him at all!!!

And you will also find that the stun gun used in 1996 WAS NOT a product made by Taser International and does not work like the TI product that is now the standard for Tasers in law enforcement.

So don't tell me that LEO's don't give a couple of extra jolts just for the hell of it!!

Now we see the root of your criticism. A belief that police officers are out there with their own personal vendettas operating as they please. Certainly there are a FEW officers working this way, but if you think that a lot of them get away with that kind of stuff, you obviously have never been a cop.

Wanna guess how we know how many times someone was tased? The Taser International product has an event recorder that records each firing of the weapon, and each time a shock is delivered by the weapon. On the scene when the probe cartridge is fired thousands of individually serial numbered pieces of confetti are spread on the scene.

There IS accountability for these devices, and you will find that in most departments in the nation each use of them requires a supervisor on scene and a report to be filed. It is investigated and logged, and the Taser itself is hooked up to an authorized workstation that then downloads the information from the Taser for inclusion in the report.

Hell I've even seen it done on COPS on TV for the whole world to see.

No, you haven't. If you saw police officers zapping people with the Taser for the hell of it, you would also see lawsuits, press reports, and national news about it.

So it's kind of hard to convince me that a lot of LEO's aren't Tazer happy!!! (If this is not true then why is this discussion even possible??)

The discussion is possible because a few people misuse the tool and then dunderheads come along and scream about how awful it is and want to get it banned, assuming the abusive exceptions to be how EVERYONE uses them, which is dumb to a level only expressable in scientific notation.

My point is, it seems like now that tazers are available, many LEO's have become like the 'Carpenter' who see's the hammer as the only solution for all problems.

Baloney. Last I checked there were still subjects being shot even in areas that have Taser equipped departments. The Taser is a tool used to try and avoid lethal force, but it is still sometimes necessary to use lethal force.

Surely your not going to tell me that all senile old ladies, and tantrum throwing kids actually succeeded in committing suicide or were injured by LEO's prior to the invention of Tazers are you???

Again, spoken like someone who is unaware of just how many injuries are sustained by suspects AND officers in a good old fashioned wrestling match or when using something like a baton. Whether you acknowledge it or not, people ARE MORE LIKELY to be injured in an old fashioned struggle than if hit by one of the new Tasers.

Believe me I understand the advantage a Tazer might have in some of these situations, but you all need to understand that it is the 'Carpenter' mentality that is going to get this tool taken away from you all and when that happens you will have no one to blame but yourselves......

You're right! We should just get rid of the Taser and go back to the old fashioned method of shooting people and beating them with metal batons, because that is obviously more humane!!

I really wish some of you people had a clue as to how silly you sound sometimes.

I am not a cop, by the way. I am a regular joe who gets stopped by the cops just like everyone else. And I am darn glad they have that Taser, because it literally saves lives. As I said before, there are people who are alive right now, both officer and suspect, who would not have been alive had the Taser not been used. It SAVES LIVES, and over-reaction to abuses by the public sufficient to get them taken off the street is going to KILL PEOPLE.

Quoted: Quoted: Taken from 'The devil's chair (google) Scott Norberg died in June 1996 in Arizona of what the Maricopa County Medical Examiner's Office called accidental "positional asphyxia" after he was pushed into a restraint chair, his head forced to his chest, shocked with a stun gun, and gagged. Maricopa County and its insurance carrier settled a wrongful death lawsuit with Norberg's family for $8.25 million in 1998.   www.angelfire.com/fl3/starke/devilchair.html ETA: do a google for the coroners report and you'll see he was zapped numerous times while being restrained. The Maricopa CSO initially denied having zapped him at all!!! And you will also find that the stun gun used in 1996 WAS NOT a product made by Taser International and does not work like the TI product that is now the standard for Tasers in law enforcement.

Even in that account, the "stun gun" wasn't the cause of death. Putting the pesron in a position they couldn't breathe in, and keeping them there caused the death.

Quoted: Even in that account, the "stun gun" wasn't the cause of death. Putting the pesron in a position they couldn't breathe in, and keeping them there caused the death.

Indeed, but we shouldn't let facts get in the way of a good rant subject, should we???

Quoted: Ever had to bring an old lady wielding a knife into custody?

No, but I've tried to date a few.        

Quoted: Quoted: Even in that account, the "stun gun" wasn't the cause of death. Putting the pesron in a position they couldn't breathe in, and keeping them there caused the death. Indeed, but we shouldn't let facts get in the way of a good rant subject, should we???

Wow!! You are absofuckinglutly amazing!!! Either you didn't read my very first post or you are just plain simple minded!!! You talk about my rant and how I will be the kind of person to get Tazers banned!!!

Thank you but I don't have that kind of power!!! It will be the improper use of any or all of these devices (wheter manufactured by Tazor or not) by dunder headed LEO's that will get them banned.

You obviously have a problem with reading comprehension because I stated several times in this thread that I support and encourage the use of Tazers but would hope that LEO's use discretion (look up the word discretion why don't you) when it comes to using it on the elderly or very young as it is these intstances that catch the media's eye and turn decent LEO's into JBT's, plus the obvious abuses the like of which I cited don't help either.

One last thing then I'm done, at least I started out by saying that I was not a LEO, You on the other hand make  post after post until you finally think it germain to the convesation to mention that you are not!!! What's the matter did you finally realize that you are as full of shit as me!!!???

I suggest a good reading course, it will help you in all areas of life.

I'm done, Azman-1 Over and out!!!.....

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Even in that account, the "stun gun" wasn't the cause of death. Putting the pesron in a position they couldn't breathe in, and keeping them there caused the death. Indeed, but we shouldn't let facts get in the way of a good rant subject, should we??? Wow!! You are absofuckinglutly amazing!!! Either you didn't read my very first post or you are just plain simple minded!!! You talk about my rant and how I will be the kind of person to get Tazers banned!!! Thank you but I don't have that kind of power!!! It will be the improper use of any or all of these devices (wheter manufactured by Tazor or not) by dunder headed LEO's that will get them banned. You obviously have a problem with reading comprehension because I stated several times in this thread that I support and encourage the use of Tazers but would hope that LEO's use discretion (look up the word discretion why don't you) when it comes to using it on the elderly or very young as it is these intstances that catch the media's eye and turn decent LEO's into JBT's, plus the obvious abuses the like of which I cited don't help either. One last thing then I'm done, at least I started out by saying that I was not a LEO, You on the other hand make  post after post until you finally think it germain to the convesation to mention that you are not!!! What's the matter did you finally realize that you are as full of shit as me!!!??? I suggest a good reading course, it will help you in all areas of life. I'm done, Azman-1 Over and out!!!.....

Funny, try and re-read the thread, and think about what was posted, and what your response was. Then your last post become incredibly ironic.

Quoted: Wow!! You are absofuckinglutly amazing!!! Either you didn't read my very first post or you are just plain simple minded!!! You talk about my rant and how I will be the kind of person to get Tazers banned!!!

No, I didn't read your first post. I responded to the posts I quoted, which speak for themselves.

Thank you but I don't have that kind of power!!! It will be the improper use of any or all of these devices (wheter manufactured by Tazor or not) by dunder headed LEO's that will get them banned. You obviously have a problem with reading comprehension because I stated several times in this thread that I support and encourage the use of Tazers but would hope that LEO's use discretion (look up the word discretion why don't you) when it comes to using it on the elderly or very young as it is these intstances that catch the media's eye and turn decent LEO's into JBT's, plus the obvious abuses the like of which I cited don't help either.

Funny, but in your last few posts I don't remember reading much except your insistence that cops are taser-happy goons.

One last thing then I'm done, at least I started out by saying that I was not a LEO, You on the other hand make  post after post until you finally think it germain to the convesation to mention that you are not!!! What's the matter did you finally realize that you are as full of shit as me!!!???

Your position is silly not because you are not a law enforcement officer, but because they are silly. One does not have to be a LEO to realize the challenges faced by LEOs and to think sanely about meeting those challenges, though it does seem that actually doing the job helps.

I suggest a good reading course, it will help you in all areas of life. I'm done, Azman-1 Over and out!!!.....

I can read fine:

As far as I'm concerned LEO's can light up drunks, druggies, and combative gangbangers to their hearts content, and should a few of these assholes die in the process, well 'STUPID' hurts!!! And sometime extreme stupidity brings you a Darwin award, in those cases, oh well it sucks to be them!!!...

That quote, for instance, demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of the Taser's purpose and application, or of the risks posed by using traditional physical force to subdue old and young people.

So don't tell me that LEO's don't give a couple of extra jolts just for the hell of it!! Hell I've even seen it done on COPS on TV for the whole world to see. So it's kind of hard to convince me that a lot of LEO's aren't Tazer happy!!! (If this is not true then why is this discussion even possible??)

As I said, I can read just fine.

You don't seem to have a firm grasp of the issue here.