... Alrighty, let me get this short bus back on the road.

... First and foremost, she’s a friend of mine I’ve known for years. I respect her and her choices. The date is innocent enough. I seriously doubt she would even consider going out with me if she thought I had ulterior motives. I simply enjoy her company and we can’t always just relax and shoot the breeze at work – although we do more than we should.

... Sure, It’s human nature not to think about what it would be like sexually, but realistically, the possibility is so remote; it’s not even on my radar. Figure my chances of the date with her are good as she’s already accepted an offer to go on a motorcycle ride with me on her new sport bike.

... Who knows, she may have an evening class or possibly even an SO she hasn’t mentioned prior, but I give my chances about the same as ARFCOMers response thus far 54.4% - yes


... ETD, she's the same gal I referenced in this thread at the bottom of the page:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=389422&page=6

Quoted: ... Alrighty, let me get this short bus back on the road. ... First and foremost, she’s a friend of mine I’ve known for years. I respect her and her choices. The date is innocent enough. I seriously doubt she would even consider going out with me if she thought I had ulterior motives. I simply enjoy her company and we can’t always just relax and shoot the breeze at work – although we do more than we should. ... Sure, It’s human nature not to think about what it would be like sexually, but realistically, the possibility is so remote; it’s not even on my radar. Figure my chances of the date with her are good as she’s already accepted an offer to go on a motorcycle ride with me on her new sport bike. ... Who knows, she may have an evening class or possibly even an SO she hasn’t mentioned prior, but I give my chances about the same as ARFCOMers response thus far 54.4% - yes ... ETD, she's the same gal I referenced in this thread at the bottom of the page: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=389422&page=6

You have to be honest with yourself.  You've already described her as a "hottie" which OF COURSE means you are attracted to her.  You like her quite a bit and want to spend an evening with her on a "date" which implies romantic overtones.

Sex certainly is on your radar, and it is in the form of one big ol' aluminum chaff blip.  You want her badly, and it is all you can think about when you are around her.  Otherwise, you wouldn't keep on mentioning how you expect to get shot down.

Just be honest with yourself, and go for it.

Does she like strip bars? You may not get any but I've seen a few lesbian co-workers get into a topless liplock with the dancers on stage

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: arent you married/engaged? ... negative What happened? ... I asked for my ring back sorry to hear about that man but, no I think you will get rejected by the lesbian

Doens't seem to broken up over it.

Quoted: rent "Chasing Amy" ETA:good luck

That was my first thought too.

HOLDEN Can I at least tell people that all you needed was some serious deep- dicking?

first, some sociological data:

as opposed to gay men, (who generally realize their sexual orientation during puberty, and who often never even attempt a straight relationship) gay women usually discover their sexual orientation in their late teens to early 30s, after having failed or marginally successful hetero relationships.

while male homosexuality is generally based primarily on sex, female homosexuality is far more often based upon the relationship aspects of the partnership.  in fact, many lesbians chide bisexual women for their carnal motivations, likening them to gay men in their wantonness.

now, where does this leave Winston_Wolf?

well, odds are that your girl has slept with men, and found it less than satisfying.  but remember what you learned about wooing women--you have to romance their mind first.  a man's erogenous zone is his body.  hell, i get an erection if a woman steps on my foot.  a woman's most erogenous zone is her heart.  tickle that, and you've got a shot with any woman in the world.

remember, with most any woman, sex isn't about sex--it's about everything else.  even those "tough girls" who throw and go are usually completing an entire mental and emotional tableau that is built around, but not upon, copulation itself.  the pure carnality is there, certainly, but it is an element, rather than the object.

ok, but what does this crap mean?

well, you obviously like this woman.  not just as a lay, but as a person.  have you figured out what it is that you want?  do want to pursue a romance?  do you want a casual sex partner?  in dating, we all take what comes, but it seems to me that the happiest people are the ones that go with the flow, but never forget what they truly want.

when it comes to wooing her, you've got quite a challenge on your hands.  whatever you do, don't try to "act like a woman".  trust me--women do that better than you can.  amusingly enough, when gay women hook up with men, they very often go for the manliest guy they can find, simply because they want an actual change.  when they want a man, they want a man!

one thing that's worked for me is to just be her friend, but keep the sexual aspect topical.  i remember one particular episode in austin.  a lesbian couple were regulars at my bar.  after a couple of months of bar talk, one day i came out with "you know, if either of y'all were straight, i'd be making a fool of myself trying to get in your pants.  consider yourselves fortunate."  with a quick grin and a theatrical sigh, i let the conversation wander from there.  but they were whispering to each other before the night was over, and i reaped the benefits a couple of months later.  not a full relationship, but a wonderful, laughing, lighthearted experience.

i guess what i'm saying is know what you want, and don't bullshit.  chances are that you'll come up dry, but that's the glory of romance--jumping off the cliff is its own reward.

good luck.

Why not? I have friends who are women that I go to lunch and out for drinks with. There's nothing romantic about it at all. Actually, two Saturdays ago, I was at a bar with a girl that I know, and she was instrumental in a hook-up with a devastatingly vivacious blonde!

Look, at worst, you realize that she and you really don't have as much in common as adult humans as you thought you did, and nobosy's worse for wear.

At best, you have deepened the friendship you already have with the woman, and don't have to have dinner alone near as often.

Of course, we require a complete AAR, pics included!

Quoted: This can be quickly distilled down to the simple facts with one simple principle.  Supply and demand.  For your average woman the supply of basic sex is infinite, and the demand is relatively low.  So they can afford to be very picky, and spin it as taking the moral highroad.  Your average man has no such luxury and has to consider every possible opportunity.  And thats all it is, no more no less.  Everything else is just bullshit.

Thank you for one of the more brutally honest, truthful explanations of how things work.

I think of it the same way, with slightly less eloquence.  

She probably owns a strap on...do you really want to ask her out?

Give her a dirty sanchez and report back.

Fortune favors the bold.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: arent you married/engaged? ... negative What happened? ... I asked for my ring back

Bummer.
But asking out a hot lesbo is definitely climbing back on the horse.
Good Luck!!!
(post pics)

You've gotta be kidding me.

Quoted: Quoted: rent "Chasing Amy" ETA:good luck That was my first thought too. HOLDEN Can I at least tell people that all you needed was some serious deep- dicking?

If the lesbian rejects you, see if Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny  will hook up with you.

maybe she'll turn out to be BI!





PICTURES NEEDED!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why bother ruining a good friendship for a piece of ass?  If she's as cool as you say she is and you value your friendship with her, leave it alone.  Seriously. You missed it Quoted: ... Not expecting to score. I've known this cool chick for years. ... As mentioned previously, it's a hopeless situation sack-wise - but WTF? You only go around once, I gotta try. No I didn't.  He's saying he still has to try.  Unless I'm misunderstanding that. This is one of those neato Girl vs. Boy thingies. Girls actually value friendships, and think they're meaningful. Boys value friendships, until the slightest hint of pie enters the nostrils, then the friendship shit goes flying right out the window. This can be quickly distilled down to the simple facts with one simple principle.  Supply and demand.  For your average woman the supply of basic sex is infinite, and the demand is relatively low.  So they can afford to be very picky, and spin it as taking the moral highroad.  Your average man has no such luxury and has to consider every possible opportunity.  And thats all it is, no more no less.  Everything else is just bullshit.

w00t.


That's all I can say to that. Anything else would mar the basic truth of the statement.

Bust her chops, tease her, act like you couln't care less about sleeping with her, and just see what happens

Quoted: Cannot answer poll w/out pics...

+12

Show up in drag!

if you cant beat them, lick them


lay down the dick of death and she may never go lesbo again.

This thread is worthless without pics

Do it. When I asked my lesbian friend out, it turned into 3 of the best weeks of my life.

... At this post it is 50.41% yes v. 49.59% no

... It was no

... There is a silver lining! She has a legit reason for not being able to go tonight, but she pressed me for setting a date to go riding bikes soon.

... Again, I just enjoy her company. I wouldn't really want any kind of relationship other than a platonic friendship - Even if she is bi-sexual, it would never work out romantically.

... Onward!

GEt her drunk.  If you don't ask for pie, you won't get pie.

legit reason for......

washing hair?
doing laundry?
trimming pie for chicky friend?
basket weaving convention in town?

dude.......

Quoted: A great philosopher once said it well when he said "Go ahead Bunky, pop the clutch!"

I have no idea what that's about, but I think it's really funny.

R.

There is no such thing as a good looking lesbian.  True lesbians are made out of rotten cottage cheese with hair all over.  The "lipstick" variety will go both ways.  Go for it!

Quoted: No, key word being lesbian .

How about yes, the key word being lesbian, might straighten her out, so-to-speak !

There's a thread in here in which we are supposed to only type dumb questions...

I vote we move this ENTIRE thread THERE.

Cant hurt can it?

Say its a friendly date, take her out, show her a good time, when the dates done, see if she has shown any emotion towards ya, if so, you have a chance.

Quoted: ... Again, I just enjoy her company. I wouldn't really want any kind of relationship other than a platonic friendship ... Onward!

Ummm...bullshit.

Quoted: ... At this post it is 50.41% yes v. 49.59% no ... It was no ... There is a silver lining! She has a legit reason for not being able to go tonight, but she pressed me for setting a date to go riding bikes soon. ... Again, I just enjoy her company. I wouldn't really want any kind of relationship other than a platonic friendship - Even if she is bi-sexual, it would never work out romantically. ... Onward!

Maybe you two should just consider being "bed buddies."



Same sex only without having to buy Hallmark cards.

Her clock is ticking.  Her & her partner are waiting until ovulation  You don't leave used condoms behind, do you?  Dada!!!

Quoted: Her clock is ticking.  Her & her partner are waiting until ovulation  You don't leave used condoms behind, do you?  Dada!!!

Quoted: Quoted: ... Not expecting to score. I've known this cool chick for years. ... In fact, by casual circumstances she was introduced to said ex-fiancé once a few months ago. ... Needless to say, my g/f was awful curious (read as jealous) that I even had a friend of opposite sex that was as "cool" as she is. ... As mentioned previously, it's a hopeless situation sack-wise - but WTF? You only go around once, I gotta try. Well if she is your friend and you want to keep her as a friend........just ask her out as a friend. If she gets the idea you are trying to sleep with her it will screw things up. Just think of be asked out by a gay male friend who knows your str8.....

Agreed. I have "dumped" many a str8 male friend that way... in fact, when I was yoounger it got to the point where I swore off even TRYING to be friends w/ str8 guys because they seemed to all end up the same way. In fact, only 3 male friends have NOT been screwed up becaue EVEN if _I_ were "interested" I'm just not their "type" - they all like blondes.... I have Aurburn hair. (and one I'm 7 years older than he - which is yet another "help" I think.

So if you LIKE her at all, be careful, might phoque yourself up.

Quoted: I'm not getting the feeling that he just wants sex from her.  Is that accurate, W_W? If you want to take your friendship with her to a romantic level and you can't get your mind off of it, I say ask her. She probably knows on some level anyway. But the fact that she may know and hasn't taken it anywhere may be your answer. Good luck.

If M_M is correct, she MAY "know" on some level... IME, if you SAY something about it, and if/when she says "No" you back WAY off and are cool w/that, it SHOULD be okay, but, again, IME if you keep on it, she'll likely just dump you as "not worth the BS". So.....

Quoted: Quoted: There are two types of lesbians. Type 1 - Trauma victims. Hot, bisexual, crazy, bipolar, hyper-active, drug addled. Also called "strippers" Type 2 - Born that way women who have no use for men, whatsoever. Also called "Girl's Volleyball Coaches", or "LPGA Pro Golfer". If she sounds like a Type 1, then by all means suit up and dive in, just be prepared for chaos. If she sounds like a Type 2, keep dreaming. I have never met the second type.  Lesbians, as with everyone else, made a decision at some point.  One day, or over a period of time, they were convinced of this (by experience or by a 'special friend').

Jame_Retief, Nice 'ta meet cha'! (I'm of the "type 2" sort - though I was/am quite athletic, never EVER into either golf nor volleyball. )

Quoted: You have a lot to learn about human sexuality and physiology. Sexual proclivity isn't a choice, it's a concoction of nature, formation of attractions, childhood environment and sexual experience. To a great degree, it's hard wired. Some women are gay from the outset....some are manufactured by trauma or chaos that leads to sexual identity confusion. Most women are heterosexual, and sexually ambiguous. Not all partake of this, but most women are not revulsed by same-sex attractions. It's the "only girls, never guys" gay women that are unique, and usually more nature than nurture. Women aren't a singular mind or motive, they are all unique where their sexual leanings are concerned because they are much more cerebral than men, whose sexuality is not as precarious.

That'd be me.

Quoted: first, some sociological data: as opposed to gay men, (who generally realize their sexual orientation during puberty, and who often never even attempt a straight relationship) gay women usually discover their sexual orientation in their late teens to early 30s, after having failed or marginally successful hetero relationships.

Sorry, I gotta call Maybe 60 years ago - mostly because women SEEMED to have few "options" due to few jobs that PAID enough to exist w/o a male. But I'm just shy of 40 and I knew when I was 3. I didn't have the TERMINOLOGY, but I knew.

while male homosexuality is generally based primarily on sex, female homosexuality is far more often based upon the relationship aspects of the partnership.  in fact, many lesbians chide bisexual women for their carnal motivations, likening them to gay men in their wantonness.

Okay - you nailed it on that one .

now, where does this leave Winston_Wolf? remember, with most any woman, sex isn't about sex--it's about everything else.  even those "tough girls" who throw and go are usually completing an entire mental and emotional tableau that is built around, but not upon, copulation itself.  the pure carnality is there, certainly, but it is an element, rather than the object.<snippage> i guess what i'm saying is know what you want, and don't bullshit.  chances are that you'll come up dry, but that's the glory of romance--jumping off the cliff is its own reward. good luck.

Eh.... close enuf for govt work.  

Quoted: There is no such thing as a good looking lesbian.  True lesbians are made out of rotten cottage cheese with hair all over.  The "lipstick" variety will go both ways.  Go for it!

Then there must be "no such thing" as a good looking str8 man either (the good looking ones are just gay guys in "denial" ).

MOST "lipstick" lesbians I know (not all, granted, but most) would mess you up MUCH worse than I would if you made an agressive pass at me/them. (Not to say w/me you wouldn't be pretty messed up - just they have these sharp STRONG fingernail things that really resemble KNIVES on the end of their fingers and while I tend to "pummel" they go for the EYES, NUTS -- you get the idea).

They'll end up as the happiest couple any of us have ever known, and we'll all puke.

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

Quoted: It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

Are you saying Teddy Roosevelt was gay?  

Quoted: Quoted: first, some sociological data: as opposed to gay men, (who generally realize their sexual orientation during puberty, and who often never even attempt a straight relationship) gay women usually discover their sexual orientation in their late teens to early 30s, after having failed or marginally successful hetero relationships. Sorry, I gotta call Maybe 60 years ago - mostly because women SEEMED to have few "options" due to few jobs that PAID enough to exist w/o a male. But I'm just shy of 40 and I knew when I was 3. I didn't have the TERMINOLOGY, but I knew.

fair enough, but terminology is exactly the point.  generally speaking, gay men know and accept that they are sexually and romantically attracted to men far earlier than gay women, at least according to mid-90s academic surveys among the family.  and informal evidence backs this up.

almost every lesbian i've spoken with on this issue has roughly the same story.  they were never particularly attracted to men, but began their romantic life with men out of default.  it just felt wrong.  so they dated around, thinking that maybe another man would provide the emotional and sexual stimulation they needed.  by their late teens or early twenties, they began to acknowledge to themselves the actual possibility that real romantic involvement with other women was what they truly wanted.  this is in stark contrast with most of the gay men i know, who have never attempted to have a real relationship with a woman.

i'm not at all trying to imply that lesbianism is an outgrowth of failed hetero relationships.  but think about your gay friends.  can you tell me that most of the women have not attempted relationships with men?  have you?  i ask this honestly.

my point is that most gay men i know have, for lack of a better phrase, "actionable acknowledgement" of their homosexuality earlier than most of the gay women i know, and this is backed up by sociological data far more current than, say, kinsey.  so i'll suggest this--ask your gay friends, both men and women, several questions:

1-at what age did you realize that you were same-sex attracted?
2-at what point did you decide that a hetero relationship was not what you really wanted?
3-at what point did you finally reject the idea of a hetero relationship?

(2 and 3 are intentionally phrased as negations, as positive/negative phrasing tends to change perceptions)

i suspect you'll find that, in general, men give earlier ages.  i am curious, so please post your findings, or IM me if you prefer.

Quoted: fair enough, but terminology is exactly the point.  generally speaking, gay men know and accept that they are sexually and romantically attracted to men far earlier than gay women, at least according to mid-90s academic surveys among the family.  and informal evidence backs this up.

Mid 90's? Or Mid 80's? The former I have difficulty believing, not saying it's not TRUE, just that this hasn't been my experience. The latter - yeah, I'd definitely say this was likely true then. Wasn't W/ME, but I'm often ahead of the curve

almost every lesbian i've spoken with on this issue has roughly the same story.  they were never particularly attracted to men, but began their romantic life with men out of default.  it just felt wrong.  so they dated around, thinking that maybe another man would provide the emotional and sexual stimulation they needed.  by their late teens or early twenties, they began to acknowledge to themselves the actual possibility that real romantic involvement with other women was what they truly wanted.  this is in stark contrast with most of the gay men i know, who have never attempted to have a real relationship with a woman.

How many lesbians 30 and younger are you aquainted with? (IOW, 30-35 and up this is LIKELY the case, under 30? I'm not buying it.)

i'm not at all trying to imply that lesbianism is an outgrowth of failed hetero relationships.  but think about your gay friends.  can you tell me that most of the women have not attempted relationships with men?  have you?  i ask this honestly.

No, no, I didn't get that you were trying to say that....though, I'd say in a MINISCULE minority, that's likely at least PART of it.

I've never been w/a guy. I had a BF in HS to get my folks off my back, but it was 100% "cover".

my point is that most gay men i know have, for lack of a better phrase, "actionable acknowledgement" of their homosexuality earlier than most of the gay women i know, and this is backed up by sociological data far more current than, say, kinsey.  so i'll suggest this--ask your gay friends, both men and women, several questions:

I would attribute this to the way we "reat" boys vs. the way we "treat" girls. IOW, if a boy is boisterous this is "okay" if a girl is boisterous that is "unacceptable" - and similar double standards.  JMO, YMMV.

1-at what age did you realize that you were same-sex attracted?

Three.

2-at what point did you decide that a hetero relationship was not what you really wanted?

Well, for ME that's sort of a "trick" Q. See, I never even CONSIDERED males as anything other than "pal" and I thought the other girls were REALLY dense for even considering it. So.... never?

3-at what point did you finally reject the idea of a hetero relationship?

Again, I never accepted it... so I never rejected it.... I guess I must really have an internal fag then, huh?

(2 and 3 are intentionally phrased as negations, as positive/negative phrasing tends to change perceptions)

i suspect you'll find that, in general, men give earlier ages.  i am curious, so please post your findings, or IM me if you prefer.

Now, as far as OTHERS go, I'd say about 1/3 of the women OVER 35 never really "tried" males. The other 2/3 OVER 35 DID, and just thought that was what they were "supposed" to do, and so they did. BUT those UNDER 35... shoot, MAYBE being VERY generous to your contention. maybe 1/3 "tried" a guy or two before they "got it". But I know NO under 35 who went past say... 24 before the "ah-ha!" moment. The other 2/3 are like, "deal w/it - or don't - but stay outta my face".

Buit then I ALSO know a lot of guys in the same age groups, they're MAYBE 10% or so "ahead" of us (so 33% of "us" over 35"got it b4 "dating age" so like 43-50% of gay guys "got it" b4 dating age. and so on.

But "Most"??? Nah....

wow 353 votes and only 1 vote seperates yes and no.  I will say no from personal exp. with friends of  mine doing the same thing with no results except for being their friend.

Quoted: How many lesbians 30 and younger are you aquainted with? (IOW, 30-35 and up this is LIKELY the case, under 30? I'm not buying it.)

ok--that's a good point.  i'd say several hundred around my age (33) or older, but not nearly as many among the younger crowd.

I would attribute this to the way we "treat" boys vs. the way we "treat" girls. IOW, if a boy is boisterous this is "okay" if a girl is boisterous that is "unacceptable" - and similar double standards.  JMO, YMMV.

with that, i agree completely.  i think another part of it might be that gay men have long had a socially acceptable ingroup to identify with once they outed, while general acceptance of gay women has been a much more recent phenomenon.  

Now, as far as OTHERS go, I'd say about 1/3 of the women OVER 35 never really "tried" males. The other 2/3 OVER 35 DID, and just thought that was what they were "supposed" to do, and so they did. BUT those UNDER 35... shoot, MAYBE being VERY generous to your contention. maybe 1/3 "tried" a guy or two before they "got it". But I know NO under 35 who went past say... 24 before the "ah-ha!" moment. The other 2/3 are like, "deal w/it - or don't - but stay outta my face". Buit then I ALSO know a lot of guys in the same age groups, they're MAYBE 10% or so "ahead" of us (so 33% of "us" over 35"got it b4 "dating age" so like 43-50% of gay guys "got it" b4 dating age. and so on. But "Most"??? Nah....

point taken.  i'll have to talk to talk to a work buddy (age 22 and active in the community) and get her take on this.  few things are worse than being the purveyor of obsolete info.

So what happened?  Wolfy I thought you were saving yourself for me?

Patty

I think we need pics!!!!!!!!

Go out together and have fun. If sex rears its ugly head(no pun intended) you are both adults and know how to handle it (again no pun intended).

Quoted: Some of the best 'break the headboard' 'shit, I need gatoraide' air raid siren screaming ,  check your pulse rate, scare the dog sex I've ever had was with a woman who was an avowed lesbian when we first met. At one point, I was driving 11 hours each way just to spend weekends in a hotel with her, and it was worth it. Go for it. Rejection only hurts if you let it. A great philosopher once said it well when he said "Go ahead Bunky, pop the clutch!"

You know my dog still aint right after that dont ya???

Quoted: Quoted: How many lesbians 30 and younger are you aquainted with? (IOW, 30-35 and up this is LIKELY the case, under 30? I'm not buying it.) ok--that's a good point.  i'd say several hundred around my age (33) or older, but not nearly as many among the younger crowd.

Well, MY age it was about a 30/70 split, my "generation" seemed to be about the 1st to BEGIN to "break out" (BTW I'm 39 - for the 1st time ;) I was in the 30% crowd, MOST of my friends had been w/men (initially thought they were str8, or didn't realize there were options)

I would attribute this to the way we "treat" boys vs. the way we "treat" girls. IOW, if a boy is boisterous this is "okay" if a girl is boisterous that is "unacceptable" - and similar double standards.  JMO, YMMV. with that, i agree completely.  i think another part of it might be that gay men have long had a socially acceptable ingroup to identify with once they outed, while general acceptance of gay women has been a much more recent phenomenon.

Hmmm.... maybe. I know that when I was young(er ) people who were a-okay w/the boys LAUGHED when anyone mentioned "the girls" and frequently ionsisted that they (we) didn't exist, "no such thing".

Now, as far as OTHERS go, I'd say about 1/3 of the women OVER 35 never really "tried" males. The other 2/3 OVER 35 DID, and just thought that was what they were "supposed" to do, and so they did. BUT those UNDER 35... shoot, MAYBE being VERY generous to your contention. maybe 1/3 "tried" a guy or two before they "got it". But I know NO under 35 who went past say... 24 before the "ah-ha!" moment. The other 2/3 are like, "deal w/it - or don't - but stay outta my face". Buit then I ALSO know a lot of guys in the same age groups, they're MAYBE 10% or so "ahead" of us (so 33% of "us" over 35"got it b4 "dating age" so like 43-50% of gay guys "got it" b4 dating age. and so on. But "Most"??? Nah.... point taken.  i'll have to talk to talk to a work buddy (age 22 and active in the community) and get her take on this.  few things are worse than being the purveyor of obsolete info.

Well, just the way trends were headed when I was paying attention to such hings... makes me pretty skeptical is all. AND it's kinda hard for me ANYWAY as I "got it" from a very early age etc.... so I have difficulty understanding it when folks "had difficulty" so COULD kinda be me too... one of those "perception is reality" deals (See I grew up in Hicksville U.S.A. - and I "got it" so WTF???? ) So COULD be that I'm just ASSUMING that a lot of women who I never REALLY talked to about their background HAD been w/guys.... I know... 3 of my 6 ex's had been w/male b4.... but then I like women 5-10 years older than me too and more feme to androgyne ... so.....