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Posted: 9/23/2005 4:43:14 PM EDT
[#1]
You forgot "syphon". 
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Posted: 9/23/2005 4:44:12 PM EDT
[#2]
Demand has nothing to do with the lack of refinery capacity. The supply at the PUMP is not keeping pace with WORLDWIDE demand. Hence the price rises. Remember, oil is a sold on a relatively open WORLDWIDE market. If prices did not rise in the US, the oil companies would sell in other countires where prices are higher. I was in Canada when Katrina hit. Gas prices there rose almost 25% in two days. Demand did not change in Canada, but had gas prices not risen in Canada, all the gas there would have gone to the US where prices were higher. That would have left Canada in the anomolous situtation of being a net exporter of gasoline unable to supply it's own gasoline needs. As for oil shale, it takes YEARS to bring production online. Oil prices just two years ago were far below the break even point. Evil Big Oil cannot conjure up facilities from thin air overnight.  The lack of economics instruction in our schools is a crime. 
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Posted: 9/23/2005 4:47:41 PM EDT
[#3]
Does anyone actually think that there is any way in hell that the .gov could lower the cost of anything?
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Posted: 9/23/2005 4:48:45 PM EDT
[#4]
Also, while we harp on free markets, the oil market, the most precious commodity, is the least free.
In the US you have more restrictions and regulations than any other country. In China, you have a hugely ineffient demand side. Your boss says "buy 100 billion barrels" and by god you do it or get shot. No matter what the price is. Even if you dont need it. In Russia, any price over about $26 per barrel, and the govt takes a 95% tax. There are huge unexplored areas, but no one gives a shit because they know they only get 5 cents on the dollar over $26 to pump it out. The exception is a few insiders dont have to pay the tax and become megaoilbillionaires, untill Putin gets mad at them and charges them with back taxes and then nationalizes thier company (see, Yukos Oil for explanation!!) |
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Posted: 9/23/2005 4:49:50 PM EDT
[#5]
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Posted: 9/23/2005 4:49:56 PM EDT
[#6]
Good God! It's not the oil companys' duty to do anything except create value for its shareholders. Shareholders that may very well be many of us here, as anybody that owns a share is a part owner and is paid in dividends or increased share price. If you want them to do something differently, go become a voting member or open your own damn oil company. |
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Posted: 9/23/2005 4:53:01 PM EDT
[#7]
Alternative thread title:
"Driving - When Will Americans Say "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH?". Americans consume 10 percent of the world's daily oil just from driving. We love the "freedom of the road" and our speed machines. Bigger and bigger engines, more and more horsepower, giant gas guzzling SUVs - larger and larger every year. WE are the one's burning more oil per capita - not only in driving but in plastics etc etc. We love to cosume far more than our share and then complain that our government isn't doing enough to get us EVEN MORE. Seems odd, doesn't it? CWO |
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Posted: 9/23/2005 4:57:28 PM EDT
[#8]
Waaaaaaaaa!! Whine whine whine. We can quit whining after we dump our gas guzzling pickups and 4WD's that are used to commute back and forth to work. Yeah I drive an SUV and am part of the demand problem but at least I admit it and don't externalize and blame someone else. Go to Europe where they're paying a lot more than we do and whine over there. Even at our elevated prices, it's still a bargain compared to what the rest of the non-OPEC world is paying.
I know people who drive vehicles alone to work that get 10-12 miles per gallon. Frankly I have no sympathy. We are DEPENDENT on someone else for oil and until we get off this dependence, we're fucked by no one else but ourselves for not doing something about it. That means driving more fuel efficient vehicles or vehicles that use alternative energy sources. I think I'll go buy a Prius now... |
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Posted: 9/23/2005 5:05:06 PM EDT
[#9]
Maybe it's not that .Gov should step in and fix the fuel problem, maybe .Gov should step up, grow some balls, and tell the liberal's we are going to build new refineries, like it or not.
Either way, .Gov needs to take a stance and not just stand by with their collective thumbs up their asses. For those that say " well then, don't buy it.", that is just assinine. |
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Posted: 9/23/2005 5:07:05 PM EDT
[#10]
It's one thing to build new refineries. It's another to ask for gov't controlled prices. |
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Posted: 9/23/2005 5:14:01 PM EDT
[#11]
What the Gov. should do about the high prices of gas and petroleum products?
1. Take away the billions in tax cuts it just gave to the oil companies. 2. Add around $2.00+ a gallon tax on gas. Use the money to underwrite the costs of development of alternative fuels or to subsidize the costs of alternative fuels. 3. Allow new refineries and nuclear power plants to be built. 4. Offer tax breaks to public transportation firms, coal companies, and other non-imported fuel saving or innovation deals. 5. Take over Iran/Iraq/Saudi Arabia and every other oil producing country and make their oil ours. 
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Posted: 9/23/2005 5:23:16 PM EDT
[#12]
Building new refineries is NOT the answer sorry to say. All we're doing is encouraging consumption and feeding the frenzy. The answer is not "don't buy it"; rather we need to look to ourselves for the answer. For example, can you really justify driving that gaz guzzler to and from work each day, alone, by yourself, no carpooling etc.? The problem with us is that it's always someone else's fault. We are part of the answer, not the government. Fuck them, they have no answers. Just think this scenario out. Let's say we cut our demand by 50%. What do you think that will do to the arabs? What do you think that will do to the price of oil? Econ 101 my friend. We need to quit depending on the government coz you saw how effective they are in NOLA. If we cut our consumption, then I think what follows will be a good thing. BTW, I'm not a tree hugging, granola crunching environmentalist. I'm a pragmatic that sees our dependence on others as a very detrimental thing for our country. |
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Posted: 9/23/2005 5:30:33 PM EDT
[#13]
Lets see I got to be at work 5 days a week and I got to drive since its reyond walking distance
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Posted: 9/23/2005 5:31:25 PM EDT
[#14]
The simplest thing to do is take away their gas tax, then we go to about $1.40 a gallon or so. Which is another way of saying let the free market take care of it. If people are really angry at somthing, then they will do somthing about it. For gas here is a small list.
Ride a bike Carpool Publig transportation Walk Don't go to so many places Rather than buy one weeks of groceries in one trip, buy two or three, this reduces the trips by 300% or order books and such on the internet, this way you will travel less. If you dislike gas prices that much, do those things then the oil companies will make less profit and lower prices to attract more buyers and increase revenue. |
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Posted: 9/23/2005 5:38:48 PM EDT
[#15]
  
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Posted: 9/23/2005 5:43:12 PM EDT
[#16]
Build that F'n refinery in Alaska. |
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Posted: 9/23/2005 5:45:56 PM EDT
[#17]
All the free market rhetoric is ignoring the fact that there is a tremendous amount of price gouging going on. For example, My neartest gas station was selling regular unleaded for $2.59 a gallon this afternoon. The price is now $2.99 a gallon, just 4 hours later. There has been no higher priced gas delivery, it is the same $2.30-2.40 wholesale priced gas they were selling at 6 pm, only now they have jacked the price up .40 cents a gallon. This is gouging, pure and simple. This is what is getting people upset.
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Posted: 9/23/2005 5:47:14 PM EDT
[#18]
You better run down to the trader pits at the Merc and do something
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Posted: 9/23/2005 5:47:39 PM EDT
[#19]
the .gov most certanly CAN do something about it. they can reduce epa regulations to allow refineries to be built. they can stop pandering to the idiots that are killing the economy to save a fucking mouse that should have been extinct 20 years ago due to natural selection. i am all for a good enviornment. I am also all for a strong nation with a booming economy. there has to be a medium ground and we are not there right now.
mike |
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Posted: 9/23/2005 5:52:21 PM EDT
[#20]
They're gouging coz it's profitable. I'm not saying it's right. But if everyone curtailed their consumption there would be less money in it because they are making money on *every* gallon you suck down. If you sucked down a third as much, then there would be a lot less impact on everyone. Less impact on you and less profit for the oil companies. |
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Posted: 9/23/2005 5:55:57 PM EDT
[#21]
... when enough of them are able to vote a Democrat into office
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Posted: 9/23/2005 5:57:52 PM EDT
[#22]
Again this is not addressing the problem. All you're doing is telling people go ahead and drive your gas guzzlers because there's plenty of gas to go around. We're actually not doing that bad from a cost standpoint compared to 20 years ago after you adjust for inflation. We were just lulled by artificially low fuel prices which encouraged everyone to go buy gas guzzlers. We became vulnerable and now we're being f**d. Bullshit I say. We f**d ourselves.
Yikes, ain't that the truth! |
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Posted: 9/23/2005 5:58:21 PM EDT
[#23]
The problem is most Americans get mad and want someone else to do something about it. No-one wants to make a sacrifice. They want the government to wave a magic wand and make high prices disappear. CWO |
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Posted: 9/23/2005 5:59:13 PM EDT
[#24]
.Gov IS THE PROBLEM, they aren't going to do ANYTHING about it. Oil companies are so regulated they are practivally a federal agency, they have to get a permit to do virtually ANYTHING. MAYBE THAT'S THE PROBLEM TO BEGIN WITH!!! GR |
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Posted: 9/23/2005 6:03:27 PM EDT
[#25]
And when the price goes down the higher priced gas is still in the ground and the sell price goes down. What is so hard to understand? When cost goes up price goes up, when cost goes down price goes down. It is called business. Nobody owes you cheap gas. Your definition of "gouging" is based on your perception of how you want things to be. For price gouging to happen the price would have to have been somewhat higher than what you stated. |
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Posted: 9/23/2005 6:04:52 PM EDT
[#26]
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Posted: 9/23/2005 6:05:47 PM EDT
[#27]
Lowering the price of gas, made from oil, is easy.
A) Just crash the economies of china, india, japan, the UK, germany, france, italy, canada, australia, etc. Crash their economies so that they can't buy oil. Supply and demand will do the rest! Well, now you know how to do it and you are mighty pissed too. So, get a bunch of pissed people together and just do it. I want to watch. Do you really have the horsepower to get it done? Does .gov, you know the .gov who can't even stop thousands of poor mexicans from sneaking in every week, have the power to do it? B) Just invade, say the country with the worlds second largest oil reserves, whip their ass and take their gas (oil). Oh yeah, almost forgot, we already did that. In fact we occupy it right now. Perhaps we should also invade, defeat and occupy saudi arabia and iran. Email hillary and eichmann-schumer and tell em to do it. In the mean time, search for King Hubbert and read what he had to say about depleatable resources like oil and the bell curves for discovery and extraction. See where we are on the oil curve. ? Back side of the curve, maybe? Hmmmm. Seriously though, option B is in fact a viable option. But we would have some pesky 'people' to deal with and our biological warfare technology is not up to the task yet. But, the times a coming. "Wave of the future, Jack." |
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Posted: 9/23/2005 6:09:01 PM EDT
[#28]
Bull NO ONE can convince me that the recent price jump is justified. I can understand some jump in cost, but the fact that prices have nearly doubled or in some instances did double can not just be shrugged off as lost ability to produce, period. |
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Posted: 9/23/2005 6:14:16 PM EDT
[#29]
I don't think anyone is arguing the price jump is justified. What most (at least I) have a problem with is the cry baby helpless attitude some people have. No one here admitted to being part of the problem. It's always "the government, the Saudi's etc., someone else but me..." Aren't we all for less governement? That means less intervention from them. We are all part of the problem and therefore we are all part of the solution. We do our part (cut the demand) and the rest will follow. I don't enjoy putting $100 of gas in my and my wife's car but we are part of the problem for driving vehicles that facilitate the problem in the first place. I can cut our consumption by more than half by judicious choice of vehicles and by 75% or more by vehicle choice and being smart about how I use them.
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Posted: 9/23/2005 6:18:18 PM EDT
[#30]
Where did prices "double"? You would have to be paying $6 a gallon for prices to double. newyorkgasprices.com/ I don't see those prices. Who exactly do you think is doing the gouging? Retailer?Wholesaler? If you think you are being gouged then have you contacted your State Officials? Or do you just want to believe your conspiracy fantasy? |
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Posted: 9/23/2005 6:22:47 PM EDT
[#31]
Don't like the price of gas? Drill, pump, and refine your own...
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Posted: 9/23/2005 6:54:57 PM EDT
[#32]
Actually there is something Government can do. Get the hell out of the way. Allow drilling access to areas now off limits. Stop the bullshit with 5235 different blends of gasoline. Cut the damn red tape on building refiners and nuke plants. That is what Government can do. |
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Posted: 9/23/2005 6:57:04 PM EDT
[#33]
This isn't price gouging. Its the market. Pricing is the intersection of supply and demand. If there is a 45 minute wait at the gas station, then you need to raise the price to reduce the demand. If your station runs out of gas in the ground before the next fuel truck comes by, its because you didn't charge enough.
A few days ago a place in town had gas nearly .10 cheaper than anywhere else. Was he being shrewd and trying to undersell everyone else? Was he gouging himself? No, because 30 minutes later the fuel truck came by and filled him back up. He had managed what was in the ground versus the demand, and at the last minute cut the price to empty his tanks. After Katrina, gas in the ground spiked around here. One guy's got up to $3.75. Guess what, people quit buying his, his store looked like a ghost town. He was one of the first to come down. |
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Posted: 9/23/2005 7:40:49 PM EDT
[#34]
Someone gets it. On another note, many of the illegal aliens living and working in the hurricane Rita evacuation area left for Mexico and because of recent border enforcement increases, most will be unable to return. It is truely an ill wind that blows no good. |
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Posted: 9/23/2005 7:41:32 PM EDT
[#35]
........and do WHAT? |
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Posted: 9/23/2005 7:45:29 PM EDT
[#36]
... Big deal, it cost me 50¢ a day to get to work to earn ~$400/day. What's your point?
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Posted: 9/23/2005 7:47:07 PM EDT
[#37]
In your NSX? Don't believe it. That is about 500 feet of driving  Was the coffee good? |
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Posted: 9/23/2005 8:12:00 PM EDT
[#38]
Thank God for my mileage allowance.
Course now I have to put it all in gas instead of splitting it 50/50 with ammo. |
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Posted: 9/23/2005 9:28:04 PM EDT
[#39]
Ok, enlighten me, because I am just not getting it. The summer driving season is over, so demand has lessened somewhat. I put the nozzle thingy in the hole, sqeeze the lever, and gas comes out. This happens whether gas is 1.50 or 3.00.
So where exactly does supply and demand come into the equation? If I squeeze the lever and nothing comes out, because east Texas has been leveled, well I can see that. It is not costing any more to drill, extract, transport, refine, and distribute now than it did 3 months ago. (Remember we are talking short-term spikes here, not long-term national energy policy or regulatory effects). So what gives? |
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Posted: 9/23/2005 9:38:02 PM EDT
[#40]
+ a gozillion! |
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Posted: 9/23/2005 10:00:56 PM EDT
[#41]
I can see your point but I would have to reply that I would not need to "justify" anything. Being "free" allows me to choose what I shall drive, etc. If I can afford a gas-guzzler vehicle and am willing to pay the price why should I not be able to do so if I so choose? Building new refineries would be a partial and substantial solution to the current problem especially since one hasn't been built at all in 30 years. I agree with you that being dependent on others is a very detrimental thing for our country but this is the fault of environmentalists and liberal politicians who tie the hands of business, etc. I also agree that we as consumers could/should cut consumption but I want to do that of my own free-will. I don't like being forced to do that by .gov or anyone else. Nor will I feel guilty about exercising my freedom no matter how much anyone tries to brow-beat me. Great replies in this thread! Keep the good info coming! Thanks. |
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Posted: 9/23/2005 10:01:30 PM EDT
[#42]
screw oil, I'm sick of oil. Oil is for dummies.
NUCLEAR. I want one of the new nuclear plants in every city. Including my backyard. One of the little ones about the size of a few water heaters that's got too little fissible material to actually melt down. Even without ANY coolant. And in one of those bombproof containers I see them launching into 20 foot thick concrete walls with rockets and crap. Yes you can put it in my garage and I'll charge up my electric cars and trucks with it. Then we use rockets to blast the radioactive leftovers into the sun, or venus or some other huge inhabitable gas ball where it won't be noticed. N U C L E A R P O W E R . There's enough energy in the keyboard you're typing on to run your house for the rest of your life. Let's utilize it
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Posted: 9/24/2005 7:04:13 AM EDT
[#43]
As long as they operate within the law, oil companies do not “owe” consumers anything. They are obligated to respond to the wishes of their stockholders.
If oil is unavailable/too costly, alternative solutions may become available (at a price that may be higher?). “Cheap” oil/energy is the foundation of the USA’s entire economy. Cheap oil(energy) is the single most influential factor that has determined how development has taken place in the USA and the day to day behavior of people living here. Having cheap oil means a lot more than making it affordable for you to drive a big truck/SUV to work (I have one, BTW). Think $4.50 or $6.50 is too much to pay for gas??? Well, don’t buy it, get a more efficient mode of transportation, move closer to where you work or get a different job. These may not be attractive choices, but that is the direction we are going in. Businesses/jobs that are built upon the premise that cheap energy is going to be available may need to go the way of the buggy whip. If that is your biz, it really sucks… but that is the way it is. Government never solved anything. It’s the market… |
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Posted: 9/24/2005 7:28:49 AM EDT
[#44]
It's in Mexico and it's called Pemex and it's a joke. Not only is their corruption from top to bottom, the quality of the gas is horrible. See this article from BusinessWeek Online, DECEMBER 13, 2004 LATIN AMERICA Pemex May Be Turning From Gusher To Black Hole Mexico's oil giant forks over so much money to the state that it's deeply in debt, and a price drop could set off a crisis World oil prices are at near-record highs, and Mexico is pumping and exporting more crude than ever before. The country is the world's seventh-largest oil producer and one of the top three suppliers to the U.S., up there with Canada and Saudi Arabia. Yet state oil monopoly Petróleos Mexicanos (Pemex), a giant with $55.9 billion in revenue, is hardly thriving. Indeed, in recent years the company has only been able to make ends meet through massive borrowing, so that it now owes a staggering $42.5 billion, including $24 billion in off-balance-sheet debt. Why? Because Pemex is the Mexican government's cash cow. The state-run company pays out over 60% of its revenue in royalties and taxes, and those funds pay for a third of the federal government's budget. If oil prices drop or there are no major new discoveries of crude, that could spell big trouble for Pemex -- and Mexico's finances. |
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Posted: 9/24/2005 8:41:42 AM EDT
[#45]
Actually airfares are going down because so many carriers are chapter 11 and don't have to pay their bills. If all the carriers were out of chapter 11 you would be seeing the fares rising with the cost of fuel. |
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Posted: 9/24/2005 8:44:01 AM EDT
[#46]
I do not think we will ever get help from anyone on gas prices.
I feel for my kids, they will have gas $5-10.00 a gallon. Alternate fuels will be just as expensive. Heck the natural gas companies see the record profits the oil industry is making and they are raising thier pricing as well. Why not, we wont do a thing.
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Posted: 9/24/2005 8:45:30 AM EDT
[#47]
I have had enough........now what?
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Posted: 9/24/2005 8:48:58 AM EDT
[#48]
This is only tangentially related to your statement, and not directed at you, so don't take anything I'm going to say here as a statement against you. I crack up every time I go to one of my usual gas stations. This station/distributor is known for selling gasoline cheaply. There are three other gas stations withing visual distance of this one I go to. My station can be selling gas for $2.84, and the other stations nearby are selling from $2.95 to $3.00, yet there are LINES at the other stations and I can just cruise in and start filling up immediately at my station. If people are so upset that station owners are 'gouging' them on prices, then why don't they shop at the cheapest station they can find? Vote with your dollars, and all that. I can understand that driving all over town looking for the cheapest gas is a losing proposition, but if you approach an intersection with four gas stations, why the ever-loving hell would you choose to buy gas at the most expensive station? |
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Posted: 9/24/2005 8:52:51 AM EDT
[#49]
You're kidding, right? |
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Posted: 9/24/2005 9:21:53 AM EDT
[#50]
No, that is what rank and file agents are saying, off the record, natch. |
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