Quoted: You should all read The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (And the Crusades) and you will realize that it IS all of the Islamic religion. The ones that don't kill us are considered moderate (by us) and unfaithful (by their fellow islamics) but the entire religion is basically this. 1. Anyone who doesn't believe what we believe is either to be converted, subjugated, or killed. 2. Murder, lying, stealing etc. is wrong, UNLESS it is to an unbeliever then Allah says it is OK. 3. Their goal is to have one religion (theirs) in the entire world and anyone who doesn't believe in it or stands in the way of spreading the word-see #1

I keep saying this shit until I'm blue in the face.

1.) Forced conversions are condemned by Islam.
2.) Lying, Murder, and stealing are NEVER allowed. Period. Arabs are famous for their hospitality, and they institutionalized it in Islam.
3.)Every monotheistic religion preaches this, including Christianity.

A few other points to ponder:

Have there ever been false conversions made by us Christians
An unbeliever is a term that applies to pagans and aetheists.
Allah is the Arabic word for God - Arab Jews and Christians use the same name in their prayers.

Aimless has it right - fantasy crusaders, the lot of you *spit*

Quoted: Quoted: You should all read The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (And the Crusades) and you will realize that it IS all of the Islamic religion. The ones that don't kill us are considered moderate (by us) and unfaithful (by their fellow islamics) but the entire religion is basically this. 1. Anyone who doesn't believe what we believe is either to be converted, subjugated, or killed. 2. Murder, lying, stealing etc. is wrong, UNLESS it is to an unbeliever then Allah says it is OK. 3. Their goal is to have one religion (theirs) in the entire world and anyone who doesn't believe in it or stands in the way of spreading the word-see #1 I keep saying this shit until I'm blue in the face. 1.) Forced conversions are condemned by Islam. 2.) Lying, Murder, and stealing are NEVER allowed. Period. Arabs are famous for their hospitality, and they institutionalized it in Islam. 3.)Every monotheistic religion preaches this, including Christianity. A few other points to ponder: Have there ever been false conversions made by us Christians An unbeliever is a term that applies to pagans and aetheists. Allah is the Arabic word for God - Arab Jews and Christians use the same name in their prayers. Aimless has it right - fantasy crusaders, the lot of you *spit*

Thedoctors308, your misunderstanding & ignorance of the tenet's of Islam are so prevasive that I have to question if you are willingly obscuring the truth in order to excuse Islam of all its abhorrent beliefs & practices???

Swingset (and all other head-in-the-sand apologists) needs to wake up.  

You are DELUSIONAL if you fail to ackknowldege the fundamental causes of muslim violence and hatred toward non-muslims--that is, the koran itself.  

Their attitudes and radical behavior will continue until the faith undergoes a reformation, and adopts a "new testament" of the koran.  

The attitude of "smiting the infidel" is not a "radical" idea at all.  That idea is common, among garden variety muslims.  There exists widespread sympathy, if not overt cooperation and action, among the vast majority of muslims for the actions taken by the "radicals" because it is the "radicals" who are seen to be the only true muslims according the tenets of the faith.  

This is not me saying this, this analysis comes from current and former muslims who are aware of the inherent "radicalism" of the faith.  

Educate yourself, stop buying into the left-wind apologists' stance, and get on board for the big fight of our lives and for our culture.  

Quoted: swingset I really don't think that is a fair comparison on what was done 2000 thousand years ago and what is being done today by muslims. All races and people were brutal at that time. But we as christians evolved .The differance with Islam is that  even now in 2006 they still will stone a man or woman to death in the street or behead a inoccent person for shock value. OR drag a dead body threw the street and cheer.And I am not saying every muslim would do that but even one that has sympathy for a act like that is a enemy to any decent person.The problem is a lot of muslims do have sympathy for terrorist and suicide bombers.Until that ends they are my enemy

Except for forgetting that it is 2005, not 2006, that is the base truth of it. While other cultures have evolved beyond the dark ages, much of Islam remains firmly planted there with no interest in changing.

to me the difference is that Islam institutionalized the worldview of the Muslim Conquests and made it set in stone for all ages.   They never had a reformation or an enlightenment that put religion out of civil power.  

Muslim governments are run like it was still the 7th century and none of the progress the Western world has made in the next 12 centuries is viewed as progress by the radical Muslims currently in power.

Islam is not the enemy, on that I agree with some of the other posters.  The problem is their culture and their culture incorporates Islam in a way that would be familiar to a 13th century Bishop, but is totally alien to us.  

I know of no way to seperate the Islamic culture from the Islamic religion.   The problems will continue until we kill so many non-radical Muslims that they start to police themselves.   When mothers slit the throats of their sons because they fear the retalation he will bring on his parents and siblings for becoming a martyr, we will have peace with the Islamic world.

Not until then.

If someone can think of a way to change their culture without attacking the religion that is intertwined with it, I would love to hear it.

I think Im actually going to go puke now.

Quoted: The blanket hatetred of Muslims on this board (And held by many other conservatives) is reminicent of the way Jews were thought of in Nazi Germany.

The Jews weren't strapping bombs to their kids and throwing them across German checkpoints.

Quoted: Ah yes, moral relativism... the death rattle of the West.

Bingo.  I'm continually amazed that, while we can acknowledge that communism and fascism are bad ideologies, we are blind to the dangers of bad ideologies that contain references to God.  It seems that no matter how horrid your beliefs are, once you wrap yourself in the mantle of a non-western "religion" or "culture" all criticism is off limits.  

This is, of course, utter bullshit.  Theology matters.  What a religions says matters.  What it's sacred texts say matters.  While it is no doubt true that evil resides in all human hearts, that evil can be either tamed or encouraged by religious beliefs.  In short, the differences between christianity, islam, buddhism and hindusism, etc... are as important as the differences between democracy, communism and fascism.    

Quoted: Quoted: Ah yes, moral relativism... the death rattle of the West. Bingo.  I'm continually amazed that, while we can acknowledge that communism and fascism are bad ideologies, we are blind to the dangers of bad ideologies that contain references to God.  It seems that no matter how horrid your beliefs are, once you wrap yourself in the mantle of a non-western "religion" or "culture" all criticism is off limits.   This is, of course, utter bullshit.  Theology matters.  What a religions says matters.  What it's sacred texts say matters.  While it is no doubt true that evil resides in all human hearts, that evil can be either tamed or encouraged by religious beliefs.  In short, the differences between christianity, islam, buddhism and hindusism, etc... are as important as the differences between democracy, communism and fascism.

Well said Cynic!

I know some of you Muslim Apolosgists might not like reading History cause it's boring or whatever, but you really should. Islam from the time of it's founding till 1917 (the fall of the Ottoman empire) Has been attacking and expaning it's influence on all it's borders. It is the perfect "conquest" religion. Within 100 years of Mohammumds death they had conquered a vast swath of the world. Countries that had no beef with Muslims found themselves underattack and eventually conquered. In fact Mohammud was so power mad he literaly sent messengers to all the adjacent countries. These were at the time Byzantium, Persia and Egypt, He basically said "accept Allah is one Yadda yadda yadda Do this or Gods judgment will fall upon you" Like some Mafia kingpin. Well suffice to say all these countries are gone now conquered  by Islam and in their place are Islamic countries now. All the countries today that are boardered by Islamic countries, India, Serbia, greece, southern Africa etc. All have a 1000 year histroy of nothing but constant warfare with Muslim states. Most religions spread peacefully and took may years to get strong and have a lot of followers. Within 5 years of Muhammuds "exile" to Medina, he had raised an army and was waging war on those who refused to "submit". After Islams first victory the "Umma" (islamic community) had been waging constant warfare. Muhammud himself led 13 campaigns. And for what? Once he defeated the Meccans he had no enemies. Do you think people in Egypt gave a crap about Arab politics? no. It was just Muhammuds dream that all the world become "submissive" to God. The military victories against "infidels" was a sign of Gods blessing!! So the more people you defeated the more of a blessing God gave you.  Oh and if you "lost" a battle was God angry with you? Nope. he is just "testing" the Umma to see if they will remain faithful. In fact Muhammud would capture women in battle and force them to marry him. Could you imagine Jesus acting in such a manner? Now i could rant on and on. But suffice to say that once Muhammud died that was not the end of it. He laid the ground work and his successors continued to do "gods" work on earth. In fact the only reason europenas are not Muslims is cause about the time Germanic Barbariians were coming in from the north and they allied with the Romans to defeat the Muslims. Charles the hammer martel(a german king) defeated the invading muslims in France in 758.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Ah yes, moral relativism... the death rattle of the West. Bingo.  I'm continually amazed that, while we can acknowledge that communism and fascism are bad ideologies, we are blind to the dangers of bad ideologies that contain references to God.  It seems that no matter how horrid your beliefs are, once you wrap yourself in the mantle of a non-western "religion" or "culture" all criticism is off limits.   This is, of course, utter bullshit.  Theology matters.  What a religions says matters.  What it's sacred texts say matters.  While it is no doubt true that evil resides in all human hearts, that evil can be either tamed or encouraged by religious beliefs.  In short, the differences between christianity, islam, buddhism and hindusism, etc... are as important as the differences between democracy, communism and fascism.     Well said Cynic!

I like!      But I still say the answer is 42.

Quoted: the only reason europenas are not Muslims is cause

The muslims spent more time memorizing the Koran instead of studying the Hindu-Arabic numeral system. You can't advance your culture if your population is incapable of supporting the massive economic, political, and military costs of warfare.

I keep saying this shit until I'm blue in the face. 1.) Forced conversions are condemned by Islam. 2.) Lying, Murder, and stealing are NEVER allowed. Period. Arabs are famous for their hospitality, and they institutionalized it in Islam. 3.)Every monotheistic religion preaches this, including Christianity. A few other points to ponder: Have there ever been false conversions made by us Christians An unbeliever is a term that applies to pagans and aetheists. Allah is the Arabic word for God - Arab Jews and Christians use the same name in their prayers. Aimless has it right - fantasy crusaders, the lot of you *spit*

Yeah and I'll keep saying it till I'm blue in the face.......
1) forced conversions are condemned in Islam. see jannisseries,  
Also many Sudanese children are made slaves then forced to convert to Islam.

2) Murder may not be allowed but the act of "murder" is subjective now is'nt it? So you kill some "jews" in Isreal, well thats not murder now is it? you kill jews you don't muder them

3) I don't care what any religiions preach, actions speak louder than.

An unbeliever is a term that applies to pagans and aetheists.

You mean Bhuddists and hindus and Zoastrians and 40% of humanity? so it's OK to kill (not murder) them but as a christian I'm safe? Phew ! I feel a whole lot safer now.

Aimless has it right - fantasy crusaders, the lot of you *spit*

By crusader do you mean someone who is defending his land against the attacks of Muslims? Last time i checked it was Greek Christians who lived in Palestine in the tenth century, Then When the army of Islam came they pulled their usual Bullshit. "Submit to us or die" So they invaded palestine kiicked out the Christians who refused to submit and declared themsleves the "owners" of Jerusalem, and destroyed any Church that was on a future Islamic holy site. So the pope asked for help in "retakeing" Jerusalem.  You do know what re-take means? it means to get back that which once beloned to you.

Quoted: Wow, I cannot fathom how you guys are defending Islam.

Because everyone else here has decided to trash a religion of a billion people because of a small minority's actions.  Even if 100 million Muslims in the world hate the West, they constitute only 10% of the Muslim population...

I don't think that islam itself is bad, but where were the clerics and mullahs after 9/11?  I heard no public outcry from muslim nations about the barbaric acts that were perpetrated in the name of their religion, saw no muslim leader stand up and distance his faith from the radicals within it.

Are you upset because no Muslims came to your door to apologise to you personally?  The 9/11 bombings were nearly universally condemned in the Muslim world.  I was working in a Muslim country when 9/11 happened, in an office full of Muslims.  I had to put up with Muslims apologizing and condemning 9/11 for MONTHS afterwards.  I say "put up with" because it got seriously irritating after a while.  As soon as anyone found out I was an American, they'd go out of their way to express their sympathies and condemn the attacks.  It lasted for months, and got old fast.

Does the NRA immediately stand up and condemn every act of violence that takes place with a gun in America?  Of course not.  They realize that gun crimes are commited by criminals.  And what's the argument used by the anti-gunners?  "The silence from the NRA is deafening".

Every religion has at some point been bastardized into a vehicle for genocide, mass killing or war.  But the difference is that the world is a wholly different place now (a lot of the world, anyway), and most religious groups have come to terms with the fact that they are not the only ones out there; they've adopted a generally peaceful, coexistant relationship with other religions.

But this has taken place extremely recently.  Just 2 generations ago in the US, it was socially acceptable to forbid black people from eating in a restaurant.  In Texas, it was legal to shoot your wife for cheating on you until 1972.  Care to go back a few more generations?  It only gets worse.

You don't even have to go back a full generation to see Catholics and Protestants slugging it out in Ireland.  And there's NO shortage of Irish terrorist apologists (I'm sure one will be along shortly) who will argue "That struggle was about land, not religion".

But not the muslims.  Ask them, even the ones you'd consider non-radical, progressive even.  They will flat out tell you they believe that Islam will eventually dominate the world.  What they generally won't tell you is that they may not directly support it buy strapping bombs to themselves, but they don't mind when someone else does.

How many Muslims have you personally talked to?  They may tell you that Islam will eventually dominate the world, in much the same as an evangelical Christian will tell you that Christianity will.  The vast majority of Muslims in developed countries will flat out condemn any form of terrorism.  This is coming from personal experience having lived in Malaysia and travelled extensively in Indonesia, Bangladesh, India, and Pakistan.  

That is tacit compliance, my friends.  And until I see large groups of muslims rooting out the homicidal maniacs within their religion, till I see massive waves of mullahs and other muslim leaders crying out for the end to random, stupid and senseless violence, I won't believe a damn thing you say about 'how it's really a peaceful religion' and that 'it's just a few extremists' who are conducting these terror operations.  I'm sorry, but the proof is right there in front of you if you choose to see it.

Um, Malaysia and Turkey both jail any imams who start to preach extremism.  Before the 9/11 attacks, the US condemned this as a human rights violation.  In fact, the US lodged repeated protests to the Malaysian government in the 1980's and 90's over their use of the "Internal Security Act" that allowed them to hold people without trial because they were a threat (echoes of Jose Padilla in the US, anyone?).  Who were the people they were holding?  Typically anyone who advocated violence or extremism.  Go figure...

Quoted: Because everyone else here has decided to trash a religion of a billion people because of a small minority's actions.  Even if 100 million Muslims in the world hate the West, they constitute only 10% of the Muslim population...

Then the other 900 million better start killing the 100 million or else the USA will kill them all.

Quoted: Quoted: Because everyone else here has decided to trash a religion of a billion people because of a small minority's actions.  Even if 100 million Muslims in the world hate the West, they constitute only 10% of the Muslim population... Then the other 900 million better start killing the 100 million or else the USA will kill them all.

Ever served in the military?
You a cop?
You work in the intelligence establishment?

Quoted: Quoted: Here's what Jesus had to say about the true nature of european white men: www.licoc.org/ACTS/crucifixion_2.jpg And, to an extent, he was 100% right wasn't he? You can take Christianity to its violent ends, and justify it....if you're bent on violence and leading ignorant people. And, lo and behold, throughout history men did just that. Right now, as it happens, people are using Islam to wage war. Doesn't make Islam that bad, it only makes it the tool at hand. If you blanket hate Islamic people, it makes you no better than the people dancing in the streets when the towers fell, because you are dicounting the possibility that good people follow Islam and are NOT going to take it to its violent ends. If we start seeing all of Islam (and not the political powers driving it) as the enemy, then we will be nothing but another footnote of ignorant dipshits in history. Keep it up guys, future textbooks are counting on you to walk into destiny with your blinders on. The blanket hatetred of Muslims on this board (And held by many other conservatives) is reminicent of the way Jews were thought of in Nazi Germany.

Nazi's hated Jews out of ignorance and through brain washing.  Jews were not killing Germans.

This cannot be said about Islam.

Quoted: Ever served in the military? You a cop? You work in the intelligence establishment?

Yes, yes, yes (before).

Dear Aimless and Swingset- I will tell you first off I DON'T really want to shoot it out with the local ERT who have the wrong address. Sewcond one of my best friends is a retired FBI agent who happens to be a devout Muslim, and even he is disgusted by the acts of the dirtbag who claim to be muslims. That being said until my friend is the majority, we will be at logger heads with Islam.

Oh and yes I have felt the effects of Islamic terror- first off when on liberty in Haifa the ROP blew up a bus 3 blocks from the cafe I was enjoying a cup of Christian oppressor expresso. Second I loss my job directly from 9/11, nothing That I did, It didn't matter that I was a model citizen,that i paid my taxes, didn't beat my wife or kids, or even dog. Just minding my own bussiness(sp) and the world changed.

When was the last time a christian male walked into a muslim cafe and blew himself up???

When was the last time a christian male flew an aircraft into a Skyscraper in the muslim world???

You are correct that not all muslims are bad, but until they become the majority in their goverment
we will be at war both actually and culturally(sp).
If this makes me a wide-eye coo-coo so be it , Just know which way the wind blows and deal accordingly.

Quoted: I don't think that islam itself is bad, but where were the clerics and mullahs after 9/11?  I heard no public outcry from muslim nations about the barbaric acts that were perpetrated in the name of their religion, saw no muslim leader stand up and distance his faith from the radicals within it.  I've seen only token attempts to purge extremists from our allies (are the saudi's really our allies?), and nothing at all from every other fundamentally muslim state.  They indoctrinate their children that the random killing of innocent people is not only accepted, but will get you into heaven that much faster, and yet you defend them?

Dude, what are you talking about?  The clerics and mullahs had a lot to say after 9/11.  Of course, none of it was any good.

Terror in America (12): The Egyptian Government, Opposition, and Independent Press All Celebrate the Terrorists Attacks on the U.S.

Terror in America (8): Egypt's opposition press: Rejoicing is a national and religious obligation; these were the best moments of our lives; Bush is a mouse leading a gang of mice

Terror in America (18): Al-Azhar University Representative in the U.S. and Imam of New York's Islamic Center: The American attack against Afghanistan is terrorism… This war will be the end of America…

Egyptian Government Daily On the Muslims' Love of Death and Their Enemies' Love of Life

Terror in America (22): Egypt's Al-Azhar Clerics: We declare war on America

You guys let me know if you want to hear more.  That's just a small sample of what the clerics in a country that is supposed to be our allies is saying.  There's a ton more.

Quoted: I know some of you Muslim Apolosgists might not like reading History cause it's boring or whatever, but you really should. Islam from the time of it's founding till 1917 (the fall of the Ottoman empire) Has been attacking and expaning it's influence on all it's borders.

Exactly.  As opposed to Christianity, which contained itself to Judea, right?

It is the perfect "conquest" religion. Within 100 years of Mohammumds death they had conquered a vast swath of the world.

Within 300 years of the death of Christ, Christianity was the official religion of the Roman empire.  

Countries that had no beef with Muslims found themselves underattack and eventually conquered. In fact Mohammud was so power mad he literaly sent messengers to all the adjacent countries. These were at the time Byzantium, Persia and Egypt, He basically said "accept Allah is one Yadda yadda yadda Do this or Gods judgment will fall upon you" Like some Mafia kingpin. Well suffice to say all these countries are gone now conquered  by Islam and in their place are Islamic countries now.

Yeah, that never happened in the Christian world.  It wasn't as if a bunch of Spaniards called themselved "the conquerors" and invaded the Americas spreading Christianity at swordpoint.  Or was it?

All the countries today that are boardered by Islamic countries, India, Serbia, greece, southern Africa etc. All have a 1000 year histroy of nothing but constant warfare with Muslim states.

Lol.  ALL countries have a 1000 year history of nothing but constant warfare with their neighbors.  For someone who claims to read history, you seem to forget the 1000 years of struggle for power between the French, the British, the Spanish, and the Germans.

Most religions spread peacefully and took may years to get strong and have a lot of followers. Within 5 years of Muhammuds "exile" to Medina, he had raised an army and was waging war on those who refused to "submit". After Islams first victory the "Umma" (islamic community) had been waging constant warfare. Muhammud himself led 13 campaigns. And for what? Once he defeated the Meccans he had no enemies. Do you think people in Egypt gave a crap about Arab politics? no. It was just Muhammuds dream that all the world become "submissive" to God. The military victories against "infidels" was a sign of Gods blessing!! So the more people you defeated the more of a blessing God gave you.  Oh and if you "lost" a battle was God angry with you? Nope. he is just "testing" the Umma to see if they will remain faithful.

I'm not sure what you are trying to argue here.  Yes, Mohammed was a general who commanded troops, and he fought in part to spread Islam (much as Conquistadors went to the New World to spread the Word of God).

In fact Muhammud would capture women in battle and force them to marry him. Could you imagine Jesus acting in such a manner?

Just to clarify, the traditional alternative for these women was death.  Marriage, in this sense, meant a commitment to support.  Basically the Koran says if you kill a man, you'd better support his widow.

There's a lot of things that were done in Jesus's name that I'm fairly sure he wouldn't condone.  Comparing Mohammed to Jesus is a fallacious argument, since Jesus is assumed to be God, whereas Mohammed is simply a man.

Now i could rant on and on. But suffice to say that once Muhammud died that was not the end of it. He laid the ground work and his successors continued to do "gods" work on earth. In fact the only reason europenas are not Muslims is cause about the time Germanic Barbariians were coming in from the north and they allied with the Romans to defeat the Muslims. Charles the hammer martel(a german king) defeated the invading muslims in France in 758.

Here's the Wiki article for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Martel

Quoted: Exactly.  As opposed to Christianity, which contained itself to Judea, right?

Thank God it didn't! Otherwise, we might miss out on bacon and egg sandwiches at McD's.

Quoted: Quoted: I don't think that islam itself is bad, but where were the clerics and mullahs after 9/11?  I heard no public outcry from muslim nations about the barbaric acts that were perpetrated in the name of their religion, saw no muslim leader stand up and distance his faith from the radicals within it.  I've seen only token attempts to purge extremists from our allies (are the saudi's really our allies?), and nothing at all from every other fundamentally muslim state.  They indoctrinate their children that the random killing of innocent people is not only accepted, but will get you into heaven that much faster, and yet you defend them? Dude, what are you talking about?  The clerics and mullahs had a lot to say after 9/11.  Of course, none of it was any good. Terror in America (12): The Egyptian Government, Opposition, and Independent Press All Celebrate the Terrorists Attacks on the U.S. Terror in America (8): Egypt's opposition press: Rejoicing is a national and religious obligation; these were the best moments of our lives; Bush is a mouse leading a gang of mice Terror in America (18): Al-Azhar University Representative in the U.S. and Imam of New York's Islamic Center: The American attack against Afghanistan is terrorism… This war will be the end of America… Egyptian Government Daily On the Muslims' Love of Death and Their Enemies' Love of Life Terror in America (22): Egypt's Al-Azhar Clerics: We declare war on America You guys let me know if you want to hear more.  That's just a small sample of what the clerics in a country that is supposed to be our allies is saying.  There's a ton more.

Quoting MEMRI is like quoting CAIR.
Not exactly what I would consider a reliable/unbiased source in this debate.

Quoted: Quoted: Exactly.  As opposed to Christianity, which contained itself to Judea, right? Thank God it didn't! Otherwise, we might miss out on bacon and egg sandwiches at McD's.

Ever been to a McDonalds in India?  

No beef.  Order yourself a "Maha Raja Big Mac", which is a Big Mac with chicken instead of beef.  You can also get a sandwich that I called "the McMutton", but which had a much lamer name.

And no pork in the McD's in Jakarta...

Quoted: Ever been to a McDonalds in India?  No beef.  Order yourself a "Maha Raja Big Mac", which is a Big Mac with chicken instead of beef.

Those Evil American Corporations sure are smart!

You can also get a sandwich that I called "the McMutton", but which had a much lamer name.

Hehe!

And no pork in the McD's in Jakarta...

Too bad for them! They could use more pork because of the disruption to the food supply due to the tsunami.

Quoted: Quoted: Ever served in the military? You a cop? You work in the intelligence establishment? Yes, yes, yes (before).

Then by all means, continue on with your posts.
There are soooo many keyboard commandos on this site who talk a big game, and want to go into Syria, Iran, NK, etc etc etc, yet they have never served in .mil, LEO, or intelligence.
One gets sickitated of hearing all this grr-woof-woofery from overweight, soft, chairborne rangers posting from the safety of their cubicles.
Hope you understand.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't think that islam itself is bad, but where were the clerics and mullahs after 9/11?  I heard no public outcry from muslim nations about the barbaric acts that were perpetrated in the name of their religion, saw no muslim leader stand up and distance his faith from the radicals within it.  I've seen only token attempts to purge extremists from our allies (are the saudi's really our allies?), and nothing at all from every other fundamentally muslim state.  They indoctrinate their children that the random killing of innocent people is not only accepted, but will get you into heaven that much faster, and yet you defend them? Dude, what are you talking about?  The clerics and mullahs had a lot to say after 9/11.  Of course, none of it was any good. Terror in America (12): The Egyptian Government, Opposition, and Independent Press All Celebrate the Terrorists Attacks on the U.S. Terror in America (8): Egypt's opposition press: Rejoicing is a national and religious obligation; these were the best moments of our lives; Bush is a mouse leading a gang of mice Terror in America (18): Al-Azhar University Representative in the U.S. and Imam of New York's Islamic Center: The American attack against Afghanistan is terrorism… This war will be the end of America… Egyptian Government Daily On the Muslims' Love of Death and Their Enemies' Love of Life Terror in America (22): Egypt's Al-Azhar Clerics: We declare war on America You guys let me know if you want to hear more.  That's just a small sample of what the clerics in a country that is supposed to be our allies is saying.  There's a ton more. Quoting MEMRI is like quoting CAIR. Not exactly what I would consider a reliable/unbiased source in this debate.

Are you saying that they didn't actually say these things?

I don't care if MEMRI is slanted, the clerics and mullahs did actually say these.

Quoted: Then by all means, continue on with your posts.

It's good that you respect my authority!

Otherwise, I might have to bust out my resume including my stint as a Space Shuttle Door Gunner E9. I'm also a muslim. As you know, only muslims can criticize muslims because "da white man" holds us down.

Quoted: All religions have their dark spots and rationalize or marginalize murder, not unique to Islam.  Pick up any book of workd history and find that info.  Good post though.  Since it is in the >>context<< of a quote it should not violate rules.

It has been unique to Islam in the last 100 years or so.

Quoted: Are you saying that they didn't actually say these things? I don't care if MEMRI is slanted, the clerics and mullahs did actually say these.

Get with the program Guardian855... you're never allowed to use their own words aganist them, dispite their unambiguous vitriol toward all things unclean & non-Muslim!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: All religions have their dark spots and rationalize or marginalize murder, not unique to Islam.  Pick up any book of workd history and find that info.  Good post though.  Since it is in the >>context<< of a quote it should not violate rules. It has been unique to Islam in the last 100 years or so. www.cnn.com/WORLD/9606/05/newsbriefs/ira.jpg

Did I miss something?  I thought that the IRISH Republican Army was mad that some parts of IRELAND did not belong to the IRISH.  Seriously, the catholic/protestant split was much more of an ethnic split than a religious one.  Its not like they were waging war on indulgences here.  

Quoted: Quoted: All religions have their dark spots and rationalize or marginalize murder, not unique to Islam.  Pick up any book of workd history and find that info.  Good post though.  Since it is in the >>context<< of a quote it should not violate rules. It has been unique to Islam in the last 100 years or so.

Larry, I would suggest that you read a little more history my friend... Islam's dark and murderous underpinings go back to it's very inception, some 1400 years ago!  

Quoted: daydream about the day they get to shoot it out with the swat team that accidently raids their house.

I'm starting to think that SWAT team some people are dreaming about would be made up of black, Muslim, Democrat LEOs from up North... and they're here to take your guns and shoot your dog

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: All religions have their dark spots and rationalize or marginalize murder, not unique to Islam.  Pick up any book of workd history and find that info.  Good post though.  Since it is in the >>context<< of a quote it should not violate rules. It has been unique to Islam in the last 100 years or so. www.cnn.com/WORLD/9606/05/newsbriefs/ira.jpg Did I miss something?  I thought that the IRISH Republican Army was mad that some parts of IRELAND did not belong to the IRISH.  Seriously, the catholic/protestant split was much more of an ethnic split than a religious one.  Its not like they were waging war on indulgences here.

That's fine if you want to argue that way, but give the same courtesy to the Palestinians who were mad that parts of Palestine didn't belong the Palestinians.  I can make the same arguments for the Hindu/Muslim conflicts in India/Pakistan and for Muslim/Catholic conflicts in the Philippines.  Then, we can take it a step further and argue that Al Qaeda doesn't have a beef with the West on religious grounds at all, and what they are mad about is the US support for Israel and the (former) presence of US troops on Saudi soil.

I don't see how you can view the Irish Catholic terrorists or Irish Protestant terrorists any differently than Muslim terrorists.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: All religions have their dark spots and rationalize or marginalize murder, not unique to Islam.  Pick up any book of workd history and find that info.  Good post though.  Since it is in the >>context<< of a quote it should not violate rules. It has been unique to Islam in the last 100 years or so. www.cnn.com/WORLD/9606/05/newsbriefs/ira.jpg Did I miss something?  I thought that the IRISH Republican Army was mad that some parts of IRELAND did not belong to the IRISH.  Seriously, the catholic/protestant split was much more of an ethnic split than a religious one.  Its not like they were waging war on indulgences here.   So you're saying that if a bunch of people who happen to be of one religion blow up a bunch of people who happen to be of another religion you can't assume that all people who belong to the same religious group as the bombers are bad?

It is different with muslims Aimless.
They look different then us.

Quoted: That's fine if you want to argue that way, but give the same courtesy to the Palestinians who were mad that parts of Palestine didn't belong the Palestinians.  I can make the same arguments for the Hindu/Muslim conflicts in India/Pakistan and for Muslim/Catholic conflicts in the Philippines.  Then, we can take it a step further and argue that Al Qaeda doesn't have a beef with the West on religious grounds at all, and what they are mad about is the US support for Israel and the (former) presence of US troops on Saudi soil. I don't see how you can view the Irish Catholic terrorists or Irish Protestant terrorists any differently than Muslim terrorists.

The question is one of motives, and it is always going to be complex.  Some wars are primarily religious, like the Crusades or the 30 years war, some wars are primarily ethnic like Northern Ireland or Bosnia.  In my opinion, the Palestinian conflict is much more influenced by religion than the Northern Ireland conflict, but there is no doubt that the Palestinian conflict has a strong ethnic component as well.  My point is that you can't simply dismiss religious belief as an influence in human history and make a stupid blanket statement that says that the Irish terrorists are just like the Muslim terrorists.  They are different and part of that difference has to do with the difference between Islam and Catholicism.  

Quoted: Quoted: Here's what Jesus had to say about the true nature of european white men: www.licoc.org/ACTS/crucifixion_2.jpg And, to an extent, he was 100% right wasn't he? You can take Christianity to its violent ends, and justify it....if you're bent on violence and leading ignorant people. And, lo and behold, throughout history men did just that. Right now, as it happens, people are using Islam to wage war. Doesn't make Islam that bad, it only makes it the tool at hand. If you blanket hate Islamic people, it makes you no better than the people dancing in the streets when the towers fell, because you are dicounting the possibility that good people follow Islam and are NOT going to take it to its violent ends. If we start seeing all of Islam (and not the political powers driving it) as the enemy, then we will be nothing but another footnote of ignorant dipshits in history. Keep it up guys, future textbooks are counting on you to walk into destiny with your blinders on. The blanket hatetred of Muslims on this board (And held by many other conservatives) is reminicent of the way Jews were thought of in Nazi Germany.

The Jews didn't attack the Germans first.

Quoted: That's fine if you want to argue that way, but give the same courtesy to the Palestinians who were mad that parts of Palestine didn't belong the Palestinians.

When did the Palestinians ever own Palestine?  Who we think of as Palestinians are mostly from Jordan before the Jordanian government kicked them out.  And before the Israelis owned the land of Palestine, it was owned by the Egyptians before that, who I might add also kicked the Palestinians out of their land.  Not only have the Palestinians never really owned Palestine, but the other Arab countries don't actually like the Palestinians except for the headaches they cause the Israelis.

Quoted: So you're saying that if a bunch of people who happen to be of one religion blow up a bunch of people who happen to be of another religion you can't assume that all people who belong to the same religious group as the bombers are bad?

I would like to think that I wouldn't have to state something so blindingly obvious.  

The point I've been trying to make this entire thread is that it is equally stupid to say, as some here have implied, that religion and theology play no role, and that there is no difference in how Christianity and Islam view war and peace.  

thedoctors308...

It is different with muslims Aimless. They look different then us.

Ahh yes, racism & bigotry... the standard refrain of all Muslim apologists when they painted into a corner by Islam's own deeds, words, and history.

Of course... the problem is not with Muslims, but with the kafirs who point out the true nature of Islam. They are raaaaaacists!

I'll give you this thedoctors308... you're as predictable as you are disingenuous.  

Quoted: Quoted: It is different with muslims Aimless. They look different then us. Actually I doubt anyone could pick me out of a line up of IRA terrorists, hell I even have a funny name like those guys. Do I need to publicly condmen their actions?

Even if you did it wouldn't matter.
The day-dream crusaders would just say "Don't you know anything? Thats an old Irish tradition - lying to non-celts is encouraged and applauded!"

Then we'll see threads on ARFcom like this

"Pub opens up near my house!!!"
"St. Patrick - saint or spreader of hatred?"
"My daughter is dating a Gael!!!"

Quoted: Quoted: That's fine if you want to argue that way, but give the same courtesy to the Palestinians who were mad that parts of Palestine didn't belong the Palestinians. When did the Palestinians ever own Palestine?  Who we think of as Palestinians are mostly from Jordan before the Jordanian government kicked them out.  And before the Israelis owned the land of Palestine, it was owned by the Egyptians before that, who I might add also kicked the Palestinians out of their land.  Not only have the Palestinians never really owned Palestine, but the other Arab countries don't actually like the Palestinians except for the headaches they cause the Israelis.

Although the West Bank may not "belong" to the Palestinians, it's clearly "occupied territory" and is the home of many Palestinians.  I think the analogy between N Ireland and Palestine remains fundamentally valid.  Even the IRA supporters think there's a valid connection.  Here's some murals for you:

tag for future reference

Quoted: Swingset, Geeze louise... you got the wrong bomber in there buddy.

No I didn't, I know who blew up OK city....I was making the point that both cases involved white guys....guess I should have been more clear.

Quoted: thedoctors308... It is different with muslims Aimless. They look different then us. Ahh yes, racism & bigotry... the standard refrain of all Muslim apologists when they painted into a corner by Islam's own deeds, words, and history. Of course... the problem is not with Muslims, but with the kafirs who point out the true nature of Islam. They are raaaaaacists! I'll give you this thedoctors308... you're as predictable as you are disingenuous.

You leave me no other recourse though - its the only explanation that makes sense.
You continue to slander a religion practiced by a billion people, even after being shown the facts about that religion.
Are we are war with Islam?
No.
We are at war with some muslims.

Oh, by the way - answer me this.

If muslims are so bad and the source of all evil in the world...what then, is your opnion of those Iraqi National Gaurdsmen?
Ya know the ones - the guys who fight against terrorism?
They are muslims you know - you folks always want to hear about muslims condemning terrorism.
This seems to fit the bill - now I want to see some ARFcommers fight terrorism - seriously.
All the fat assed couch commando gucci gear whores, stop posting, enlist, and go over to Iraq and help the fight.

[crickets]

Those who are/have served are excluded from the above rant.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So you're saying that if a bunch of people who happen to be of one religion blow up a bunch of people who happen to be of another religion you can't assume that all people who belong to the same religious group as the bombers are bad? I would like to think that I wouldn't have to state something so blindingly obvious.   The point I've been trying to make this entire thread is that it is equally stupid to say, as some here have implied, that religion and theology play no role, and that there is no difference in how Christianity and Islam view war and peace.   Just as it's stupid to think that muslims are a homogeneous blob of mad bombers all united in their desire to blow up any christian who crosses their path, which is the point of this dopey series of threads.

Gee, and here I thought the point was to demonstrate what certain important or influential figures have had to say about Islam.  Maybe I need to get out my super-secret racial bias decoder ring so I can get the hidden meaning of these statements.  I suppose that it tell will me that this statement

I studied the Quran a great deal. I came away from that study with the conviction that by and large there have been few religions in the world as deadly to men as that of Muhammad. So far as I can see, it is the principal cause of the decadence so visible today in the Muslim world and, though less absurd than the polytheism of old, its social and political tendencies are in my opinion more to be feared, and I therefore regard it as a form of decadence rather than a form of progress in relation to paganism itself.

by the simpleminded bigot Alexis de Tocqueville actually means "I hate brown-skinned people and their silly little religion."