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Posted: 9/15/2005 6:10:24 AM EDT
[#1]
No CCW in NJ unless you're LEO or ex-LEO. You are supposed to rely on police for protection or cower in a corner as someone robs you. If CCW and open carry were made legal in NJ, you'd see the crime rates drop dramatically. I sometimes show pics of my high cap mags to buddies in NJ 
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Posted: 9/15/2005 6:10:52 AM EDT
[#2]
 BigDozer66 |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 6:12:58 AM EDT
[#3]
Step back and think about it. Would you really have done that? Would you have been on top of your rational thinking or would instinct/reaction take hold? Normal response to danger is fight or flight....kid REACTED with fight....normal. Bomber |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 6:25:18 AM EDT
[#4]
Bomber,
I've seen dozens of examples of what cars can do to people. I've also been forced to stay rational in a crisis. So, yes, I'm confident that's what I would do. I'm not going to hang this kid. He has my sympathy for being attacked by a nutjob. I don't think he should go down on murder charges. But I think calling this a clean act of self-defense is inaccurate. If the article is accurate--which is a big "if"--the kid was no longer in danger. He then went over to the driver's door, putting himself back in danger, and killed the guy. Here's where the mindset of the kid makes a difference. Did he intend to kill the guy? If so, it's a prosecutable murder charge. Did he just want to give the driver some pain? Then just manslaughter, pled down to something else. A person's right to self-defense ends when they are no longer in imminent jeopardy. And there's the obligation of preclusion, meaning if there's a reasonable alternative to the use of deadly force, you must exercise that alternative. We can debate whether that's the way things should be, but right now that's the way they are. |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 6:51:49 AM EDT
[#5]
Agreed. My point is the kid is well....a kid. He's 17 and not trained to override fight or flight. There is not enough info to determine wether a REASONABLE person would have concluded that he was or was not still in imminent danger. As we agreed previously, state of mond will factor in. The kid could have reasonably concluded that he was still in danger. OTOH, he could have been trying to exact revenge which would have placed him in the role as the aggressor. I think we all tend to look at these cases narcistically....how we THINK we would have reacted. In reality, our thoughts on how we THINK we would have have reacted may be 180 degrees from how we would have reacted. That's why the standard of reasonableness should prevail IMHO. Personally I empathize with the kid which is why I'm predisposed to let him off the hook. I do however realize that my predisposition does not necessarily coincide with the letter of the law. This predisposition is also based upon incomplete facts. Bomber |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 7:15:53 AM EDT
[#6]
How do you drive that makes people want to give you the finger? |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 7:26:27 AM EDT
[#7]
I don't believe that the kid was out of danger when he hit the other guy. The kid probably would have had to pass in front of the car in order to get into the house. If the kid had of moved away from the house, then the driver could continue to chase the kid down the street. Even if the kid had of made it safely into the house, the car driver sounded aggressive enough that he may have driven into the house. It has happened. It was self defense clear and simple. Let the kid go. |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 7:26:55 AM EDT
[#8]
Who was to say, that if the kid got up and ran to the house, the guy in the car wouldn't try and drive into his living room?
I really doubt the kid was trying to kill the man, just trying to keep him from making aother attempt at running him over. Someone crazy enough to follow the kid home, and try and run him down in his own front yard more then likely wouldn't stop untill the kid was dead. If someone shoots at you and then stops to reload his gun, do you wait for him to start firing agin before you shoot back, or shoot him when he has is defense down, and you can make a clean shot? |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 7:28:59 AM EDT
[#9]
Having been involved in a road rage incident myself, I have to say that, given the circumstances, the kid should be given the benefit of the doubt. He may not have followed the exact letter of the law but his state of mind must be taken into consideration as to whether or not charges should even be brought against him. A nut chases you in his car then runs you down. You are recovering from being struck with a deadly weapon. This is a life-and-death situation. You have tunnel vision. Your adrenal glands dump a gallon of adrenalin into your blood stream. All you can focus on is this madman trying to kill you. The teenager is doing everything he can to stop the threat. Two sharp blows and the threat stops. This is the same kind of bullshit Monday-Morning-Quarterbacking the Left Wing Media does with our soldiers in Iraq. Lesson: Don't run people down with your car. You may get hurt. 
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Posted: 9/15/2005 7:31:16 AM EDT
[#10]
2 punches and he KILLS the guy?? Holy shit!!! I wouldn't want to run the ball on that kid!!! I bet a ref will think twice about ever throwing a flag on that kid!!!
HOLY SHIT!!! HE KILLED that SOB!!! 2 punches!!! Can you imagine this kid trap-blocking or pulling and hitting somebody?? HOLY SHIT!! I bet he'll go pro!!! |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 7:42:52 AM EDT
[#11]
Can you reasonably argue that a persons life is not in danger as long as a man that has run you down once is still in his car which can accelerate from 0 to 25 or 30 in no time? If the man attacking me lowers his gun to his side for a moment after firing a shot at me, am I now no longer in any danger? I'm not one of those people who think the cops have no right to shoot a person using a car as a weapon so I have no misgivings about saying this teen had every right to put this assholes lights out after being attacked by him with a car. |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 7:49:14 AM EDT
[#12]
Like any story we read, there are missing peices of the puzzle here. The court may find the rest of the info and use that to judge this incident (thankfully).
As far as road ragers... I keep a 1911 handy for that. But would likely try the 3 D-cell Maglight sitting next to me on the seat first. It's purpose is to remove a road-rager from my driver's side window [hopefully] without having to kill him. |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 7:57:13 AM EDT
[#13]
If you think about the driver's position in the car versus the 300lb teen standing at the driver's window he most likey was struck twice in the temple. I was ready to say no self-defense as he took himself out of the path of the car. However, if he tried to run to the house he wouldn't have made it and been possibly hit (again) or run over/killed. Neutralizing the threat would have been easier with a weapon (fire through the front windshield). Absent a firearm, the next best thing was to walk around and take the guy out with blunt force trauma. |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 7:57:23 AM EDT
[#14]
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Posted: 9/15/2005 8:02:18 AM EDT
[#15]
I'm basing my conclusion on a lot of assumptions. Without seeing the layout of the yard, knowing where the kid was thrown, and what exactly the driver was doing when the kid came up to him, I don't think any of us can be certain. Based on what the article said--that the driver hit the kid, the kid landed on his feet and then walked over to the driver and killed him--it sounds like the kid had other choices. If his very large yard doesn't have any trees or obstacles, I'd completely support your argument. "I had to control the guy in his vehicle because otherwise he'd start driving at me again." But if his concrete front door steps were 10 feet away and the guy's car was motionless and facing a different direction, no way. I'm guessing the second version--small yard with some sort of obstacles nearby--is more likely. What was the vehicle's driver doing while the kid walked up to him? Saying, "My God, I'm so sorry, I wanted to pull up near you", or was he saying, "Take that, you S.O.B."? Mindset makes a difference there, too! The article left out a lot of information that would be helpful. So my interpretation is based just on what the article said. Your analogy about lowering the gun isn't completely applicable. Your hypothetical gunman is still holding a weapon instead of dropping it. A better analogy would be this: Was the driver gunning the engine, spinning the tires, trying to have another go at the kid? Or was he sitting there with his car in park? In one instance, you could make a legitimate argument for self defense. In the other, you couldn't. |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 8:04:20 AM EDT
[#16]
Believe it or not, some people (the ones with a really bad case of road rage) give the finger for no reason at all. I can think of a couple incidents where I or my wife did nothing and some nutcase comes flying by with the 1 finger salute. These people are mad at the world and flip off anyone that gets in their way. CR |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 8:09:10 AM EDT
[#17]
They are Democrats and that is all I got to say about that!  Do you still have your W'04 sticker on your vehicle?  BigDozer66 |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 8:33:26 AM EDT
[#18]
I've never had this happen to me, and I drive a lot. Some people have very short fuses, and while I'm not claiming you "deserved" to be flipped off (or run over...), I'd bet money that some of those cases involve some driving habit of your that is perceived as rude by a non-negligible percentage of the population.
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Posted: 9/15/2005 8:49:42 AM EDT
[#19]
You maybe overthinking it. The kid did not have the luxury of contemplation. He had to react to what he percieved. He had a life threatening stimulus and the the only possible reactions are fight, flight or freeze up. Freezing up was probably not an option so it's fight or flight. If the fight reflex kicked in, his only option was to attack the control center. Do you shoot a perp with body armour on in the chest? No you attack the soft spots. The only soft spot would be the driver not kicking the front quater panel. It's doubtful that he FULLY INTENDED to kill the driver. I doubt this will fall beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt. Even so worst case would be involuntary manslaughter with extenuating circumstances. Community service and probation max. The actions of the driver consitute proximate cause. If he hadn't followed the kid home assualting him on the way and then ultimately batter him, he would have had dinner with his family that night. It's his fault, not the kid's. If I point an empty gun at you and you cap me, should you have considered the gun was empty and not a real danger? Should you have run arouund the corner hoping I didn't follow? Most likely you would react to your perception of immediate danger which might reasonably be premptive action. The real question is did the kid act in a reasonable way based upon a reasonable perception of what was going on? Bomber |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 8:52:57 AM EDT
[#20]
No choice.  Not until after college... |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 8:54:41 AM EDT
[#21]
Definitely. If he's still on the scene, still holding the weapon, fuck him. |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 9:04:43 AM EDT
[#22]
Perhaps I was stretching the analogy too far. We agree on the "reasonableness" standard. I remain unconvinced it was reasonable to kill the guy when other reasonable options probably existed. As I said earlier, I don't see a murder conviction here. Perhaps manslaughter. And I wouldn't be sorry if the kid got completely off. |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 9:09:36 AM EDT
[#23]
1: Kid should drop football, call
 (Don King) and get into prize fighting.2: I hope someone warned "Bubba" to take a cold shower. |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 9:21:09 AM EDT
[#24]
Not in the cases that I'm talking about... I'll give you one example. The other one that I remember was worse than this, but harder to describe without drawing a diagram. This happened while my wife was driving, by the way. On the way home from work (traffic was kind of thick), she was driving in the left lane. An 18 wheeler had changed lanes in front of us to get around a slow moving car in the right lane. It was pretty obvious to us that he'd probably get back over once he cleared the slow car and we'd be on our way. In the meantime, some impatient moron comes flying up behind us and jumps in the right lane (but can only get even with us before she has to brake to avoid hitting the slow car). She looks over, honks, and waves with one finger. I give her my best "WTF? look". She drops back behind us and then cuts off the slow car to exit the interstate. She just needed around that one last car before exiting, ya know. I could see her frustration if we were just poking along in the fast lane with a mile of open road ahead - but we were behind a slow moving truck - and trying to get around him ourselves.I'm not claiming to never do anything that pisses someone off on the road. I know I have. I'm just saying there's a small group out there that love to cuss and yell at anyone in their path. The same ones that speed up to run a red light when there was more than enough time to stop - so much that the person ahead of them actually did stop. Then they end up almost rearending the driver ahead and honk and yell at them. It hasn't happened to me, but I've seen it a couple times. We pass a college on the way to work every day - that might explain some of it... CR |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 9:31:52 AM EDT
[#25]
Dude, They have colleges in other states. Trust me. I know. |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 9:36:26 AM EDT
[#26]
MEANS: Motor vehicle
MOTIVE: Road rage, already having assaulted the brat with his vehicle an resonably expected to keep it up, from all we can tell. OPPORTUNITY: Right there, in the imediate presence of the young gorilla In the face of that, no jury is going to agree on murder charges. My money would go on him being tried as an adult if that's done in NJ, and pleading to something less than full-blown manslaughter. However we are lacking a lot of facts that could influence the outcome. For instance what was the young guy's history? If he'd beat someone senseless before and was prone to pick fights, it wouldn't look so good. Also if his blood tests showed and kind of alcohol or other drug, say steroids, he could be in for a rough ride. If he were younger or smaller, his chances of staying in juvie status would be much better. Also we don't know if Dad was there yelling "Kick his ass!! Kill that mofo!!" |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 9:41:09 AM EDT
[#27]
is this lad out of jail yet or are the ruthless bastards still holding him hostage like he is a criminal before a trial?
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Posted: 9/15/2005 9:48:49 AM EDT
[#28]
With the information we have, no way should that kid do time. It's not like he drug the driver out and bashed his head against the cement 20 times.
Plus there's a phone record of him calling his father to report the pursuit. Shows malicious intent on behalf of the dead guy. The kid was ALREADY trying to get away - he drove home. The assault precluded him from reaching safety. The guy hit the kid with the freakin' car after a pursuit! Assault with a deadly weapon/attempted murder, take your pick. The kid fought back after his attempts to distance himself from his assailant failed. Good punch. In Texas, this kid would have half a dozen scholarships waiting in his mailbox. Sux to live in NJ I guess. We'll take the boy. Send him on. |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 9:58:40 AM EDT
[#29]
You bring up a very relatant point. This was a sustained assault. He followed him 3 miles screeming out the window the whole way only tgo end up running into the kid with his car. Why should the kid assume that the assualt was going to stop? Bomber |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 10:04:52 AM EDT
[#30]
New Jersey Homeowner sees man coming through bedroom window -- "Mr Burglar / Rapist - could you wait a few minutes? I called the police, and they will be here in fifteen minutes to protect me and to take care of you" |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 10:11:01 AM EDT
[#31]
He got hit by a car? Damn.
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Posted: 9/15/2005 10:32:05 AM EDT
[#32]
I refuse to go 75 when its a 65 speed limit while on a two lane road. There are lot of speed traps where I live, and I ain't going to get a ticket because some fellow was late for work because he wanted to see how Gilligan escaped from the cave. |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 10:40:57 AM EDT
[#33]
Good point. We also don't know whether the dead guy had been screwing the kid's girlfriend, enraging the kid and leading him to drive badly in hopes of baiting the guy into chasing him 3 miles and then hitting him with a car. The whole thing might well have been a set up, with murder as the ultimate goal. Hell, it may not have been the same the kid. It may have been his twin brother, of whom the police are entirely unaware, who is a trained killer who lies in wait in the bushes by the front door and every time somebody comes into the yard and hits one of his relatives with a car, jumps out and beats the driver to death. Of course, it could be that the guy driving the car had just been fucked in the ass in a public bathroom before he was cut off in traffic, contracted fast-acting HIV, and died of AIDS just before the kid hit him. On the other hand, the guy who was beaten to death may not have been the driver who hit the kid with the car. Maybe the driver had a twin brother hiding in the back floorboard, and in the confusion following the chase and the attack, the guilty driver escaped and his innocent brother got in the front seat, totally unaware of the attack, intending only to move the car, and was beaten to death for no reason at all! |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 10:50:49 AM EDT
[#34]
Unless the kid is a boxing pro, I doubt it. |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 11:11:16 AM EDT
[#35]
LOL....My vote goes for the dad having been alerted by the kid was laying in ambush with a beanbag load on his side by side......bap bap....two bean bags to the head. Bomber |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 11:14:28 AM EDT
[#36]
The people assuming the threat was over have no clue to the state of the driver of if he was trying to move or not. Liberals in mufti. He very well could have been stuck and trying to get it unstuck for another attempt. But many here have already sided with the victim. Oly-M4gery If someone shoots at you, misses, then drops their gun, you wait 10 seconds and draw and fire 2, killing the other person, is that self defense? 1. Depends on how many people saw him drop the gun. 2. Your analogy is way off. Your assuming that the guy tried this, and then happily sat there tuning his radio to a new station while doing nothing else. Not in this world. Callgood 1: Kid should drop football, call (Don King) and get into prize fighting. 2: I hope someone warned "Bubba" to take a cold shower. +1 |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 11:20:49 AM EDT
[#37]
From playing HS Football, driving home after a hard practice your as good as drunk. So chances are this kid wasnt driving too well. But nothing justifies following someone home and ramming them. I think the kid should have been allowed to do just about anything after the guy tried to kill him with his car.
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Posted: 9/15/2005 11:23:04 AM EDT
[#38]
I'd disagree with that. I think attempted 1st-degree (premeditated) murder would be a good prosecutable case. He followed the kid for 3 miles--even have record of kid's phone call reporting that--in order to run the kid down in front of at least one witness. The driver even had to jump the curb into the kid's yard to get him. If your state can't turn that into an attempted 1st-degree murder charge, I think your state is not very tough on crime compared to most. |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 11:28:21 AM EDT
[#39]
Kid will most likely get off for self-defense. The guy tried to hit him with the car once. It is doubtful that he could have retreated anywhere SAFELY to remove himself from the threat. That is the key, law doesn't require you to risk your life to retreat from a dangerous situation, even in the most wussy GFW states.
At least that's how an AMERICAN court would look at it, don't know how different New Jersey law is.
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Posted: 9/15/2005 11:31:06 AM EDT
[#40]
[sodascreen] <<< we need that smiley If I ever face charges, I want FLAL1A as at least a consulting attorney to investigate every possible explanation, (now that Johnnie C. isn't around)  He isn't even warmed up yet. I can only imagine the bill............My points were that 1) with the dead guy having until that point shown every indication of continuing his attack, the young guy seems to have a pretty good defense and, 2) More facts may come out that would change that....... Do you think he'll walk, or get a lesser offense? |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 11:32:01 AM EDT
[#41]
by that definition anything other than cowering in fear waiting to be killed is wrong. If his father had shot the man and killed him, it would be a good shot. How is it any different if he punches the guy to prevent him from trying to run him over AGAIN. |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 11:34:45 AM EDT
[#42]
If someone is shooting at you with a single shot rifle and is reloading when you walk up and deck him, does that put you in the wrong because he was reloading? He committed attempted homocide with a lethal weapon. The boy defended himself. |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 11:55:36 AM EDT
[#43]
Who said he was "reloading"? If the kid had time to "walk" up to the car, it doesn't sound like the guy was trying to run him over any more. I fire my single shot rifle at you, and you know I'm out of ammo after that shot. You then come over and kill me. Yes, then you're in the wrong because you're no longer under imminent threat of death or great bodily harm. That's how it works. I assume if the kid had time to walk over to the driver's door, he had time to walk somewhere else. Taking someone's life is the last resort in the eyes of the law. Preclusion. Learn it. Love it.
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Posted: 9/15/2005 12:06:23 PM EDT
[#44]
Timing, imminent threat. etc. Along with a lot of the info we don't have, is how hard was the hit, what speed, etc. Is it possible that stupid was tailgating the kid, when the kid parked and jumped out, the guy didn't have time to stop? If the kid is taking a "hood ride" and Dad shoots the driver, it's most likely a good shoot in every state in the US. Easy to articulate the danger what could happen to a person up on the hood of a car being driven by an angry person. But, to get hit, end up on the hood, walk, run, etc. to the driver's side of the car, hit the person twice, even if there was no conversation between the two, takes TIME. Imminent threat dissipates in that time. The longer it took, the longer that car wasn't moving........................ I still think both parties share in the dumbness of the entire incident. If he has a cell phone why not call 911 and drive to the local PD? Why park so that you have to cross the street IN THE PATH OF the car that is chasing you? Where was the Dad during this? Are there witnesses to the "cut-off" and subsequent driving? How much time elasped between car-ped and punches? What was the driver saying in between the car-ped and the punches? |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 12:25:58 PM EDT
[#45]
I think he'll walk. |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 12:38:52 PM EDT
[#46]
It looks like he closed the distance between himself and his attacker. This made it difficult but as said earlier not impossible to be attacked with the car again. What if the driver got out of the car and tried to continue the attack with a different weapon? What should the kid have done, try to get to the house and have the guy draw a firearm and shoot him? Would you retreat to a location that might have put your family in danger? If he was on his property he doesn't have a duty to retreat and should not be charged with anything because he defended himself and his family.
Tim |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 12:47:13 PM EDT
[#47]
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Posted: 9/15/2005 1:01:18 PM EDT
[#48]
Pretty well sums it up. NJ is like bizarro world when it comes to laws. I know all of those towns they talk about in the article. I lived in the town next to Linderwold. Funny. Not only should that kid not even be in the detention center, he should have it removed from his record. I guess the whole road rage/aggressive driving thing they claim to be cracking down on so much only applies when it happens on the interstate... not on the front lawn of someone's house. Madness. 
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Posted: 9/15/2005 1:16:38 PM EDT
[#49]
This last line especially irks me. Since when is defending your life "uncharacteristic" of an "excellent student". These qualites are not mutually exclusive. I got my CCW a year before graduating college, a year in which I got A's and B's exclusively, and I am also, IMO, an all around nice guy. Nonetheless, if you are trying to run me over with a 3000lb automobile, I will be putting as many 230gr friends into the driver's side of your windshield as I can while I try to get out of the way. This kid didn't have a gun to rely on, only his fists, but the end result and, in a sane state's courts, the justification should be exactly the same. |
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Posted: 9/15/2005 1:34:26 PM EDT
[#50]
Who is to say the guy would not have done this again with another person?
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