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Posted: 9/16/2005 4:43:09 AM EDT
[#1]
An attitude like this is what caused this accident. The Rules are: Rule 1 ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED Rule 2 NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY Rule 3 KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET Rule 4 BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND IT And Rule #3 is not bullshit. Neither are the others. If the instructor had followed these rules, the young lady would still be alive. |
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Posted: 9/16/2005 4:55:55 AM EDT
[#2]
Agreed. I have been in more than my share of weapons training, and we have used functional weapons for the training, but never did we or the instructors actually point a weapon at each other. We did multiple buddy checks of all weapons, but we STILL didn't point them at other people. You can train safely with working firearms, but you MUST do it properly. No ammo in the room. Weapon is checked, rechecked, checked again, and then checked some more. |
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Posted: 9/16/2005 5:30:27 AM EDT
[#3]
links to the original articles please
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Posted: 9/16/2005 5:38:50 AM EDT
[#4]
I put the links up, you will have to register to see the story. ETA: Tried to find the original article (it had few details) but, my search on AJC's site only pulled up the 2 articles in my first post. |
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Posted: 9/16/2005 5:57:51 AM EDT
[#5]
Old Painless sums it up.
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Posted: 9/17/2005 9:31:08 AM EDT
[#6]
As a police firearms instructor, I'm almost speechless.
 I went through the Glock armorer's school recently. The instructors brought in live guns AFTER we took every one of our guns and rounds of spare ammo out of the classroom. They didn't care what caliber our ammo was either. Some departments don't have great training facilities. We have classroom facilities attached to the range. Live guns are the only ones there, and the instructors have to pay attention. Function, maintenance, and cleaning have to be taught on real guns. However, drawing from the hoslter, "speed drawing," or whatever you want to call it is done on the range, weapons pointed at the target. This situation sounds like it was classroom instruction, and he was illustrating a point with a loaded pistol. I'm curious how many times before this situation the instructor violated the rules to some degree. If this is his first, it's one hell of a way to do it. Either way, he's done - medically retired for his stress and possibly prosecuted, depending on what their negligent homicide statute says. |
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Posted: 9/17/2005 9:38:45 AM EDT
[#7]
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Posted: 9/17/2005 10:08:00 AM EDT
[#8]
I was interested in Clint Smith's approach at Thunder Ranch. His policy is that you can wear your pistol anywhere on the site. It must stay in the holster unless on the firing line. The holster must cover the trigger. You can load magazines at any time and anywhere. You can remove the mag from your pistol and replace it, as long as you leave the pistol in the holster while doing so. If a student asks, "Does it have to be unloaded?", Clint looks at them and says, "All guns are always loaded". If someone asks if Clint prefers the guns to be unloaded in the classroom, Clint looks at them like they are crazy and says, "ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED". If you get the First Rule in your brain correctly, you will never accidently shoot anyone. |
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Posted: 9/17/2005 10:25:15 AM EDT
[#9]
tag
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Posted: 9/17/2005 1:03:38 PM EDT
[#10]
When I was a recruit we still used SW revolvers for force on force training. They used spent cases loaded with the primer only instead of blanks. simunitions had not been invented yet. At close range you got a lot of powder tatooting from the primer alone.
Thing have come along way since then. red guns and simunitions are the norm now. He violated policy in bringing a real firearm into the classroom. He should be prosecuted for negligent homocide. I see this one like people that leave their kids in a parked car, or leave their pool gate unlocked. I'm sure he "feels" horible, but felling haorrible is not enough, he needs to be made an example of so others are maore carefull in the future. Fire him and prosecute him. Fire his supervisors too and reassigne to the academy commander for running such a loose ship. |
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Posted: 9/17/2005 1:06:21 PM EDT
[#11]
How did you do force on force training without pointing weapons at each other? How do you even practise a felony car stop or 211 in progress drills with pointing weapons? Shoot dont shoot scenario drils? Action beats reaction drills? |
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Posted: 9/17/2005 1:11:55 PM EDT
[#12]
If you're talking to me, believe it or not we used red guns. But that was before the days of red, plastic guns. We had some old Colt and S&W revolvers that had the firing pins removed. The guns were then spray painted red and used when pointing guns in training was necessary. In one drill, a guy would cock the pistol and hold it in the instructor's back. The instructor could spin around and grab the pistol before you could pull the trigger. I can still do it with ease. |
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Posted: 9/17/2005 1:18:24 PM EDT
[#13]
No shit. This is what BLUE GUNS are for. I am constantly mystified by academies and agencies that use the real thing (unloaded or not) for training that requires POINTING GUNS AT PEOPLE. They need to learn that one important rule about "Never point a gun at anything you are not willing to destroy." This is NOT the first time. I remember a recruit being killed during a firearms retention drill when his gun (which was suppossed to be empty) was taken from him and the instructor pointed it at him, pulled the trigger and shot him. They blamed it on the fact that the gun discharged even with the magazine removed. |
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Posted: 9/17/2005 1:20:42 PM EDT
[#14]
 I hope you're kidding! |
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Posted: 9/17/2005 1:24:08 PM EDT
[#15]
BLUE GUNS. |
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Posted: 9/17/2005 1:27:17 PM EDT
[#16]
Nope. A LOT of guns won't fire with the magazine removed but one still in the pipe. They assumed this applied to ALL guns. They found out differently. Some of the worst gun handling I've ever seen has been at police academies and by instructors. I didn't even want to be in the room after two minutes. |
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Posted: 9/17/2005 1:43:02 PM EDT
[#17]
This sucks for everyone.
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Posted: 9/17/2005 3:33:58 PM EDT
[#18]
So you have pointed real guns at people in training. |
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Posted: 9/17/2005 3:47:39 PM EDT
[#19]
While it is certain that most cops have, it is also true that there is absolutely NO NEED to continue the practice. |
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Posted: 9/17/2005 4:18:53 PM EDT
[#20]
Sounds like they used spray painted paperweights to me. |
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Posted: 9/17/2005 4:37:27 PM EDT
[#21]
Only if you define "real gun" as one that cannot possible be fired. |
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Posted: 9/18/2005 12:01:46 PM EDT
[#22]
Simunitions, boys, simmunitions. Those are guns, and LEO's are shooting at each other with them. |
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Posted: 9/18/2005 12:10:54 PM EDT
[#23]
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Posted: 9/18/2005 12:14:13 PM EDT
[#24]
I thought of the SAME THING!!! |
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Posted: 9/18/2005 12:23:42 PM EDT
[#25]
I agree. Unfortunately it used to be common practise, and remains so in some less progressive agencies. |
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Posted: 9/18/2005 12:42:20 PM EDT
[#26]
+1 I feel for the young officer's family, and also for the FI. One's career and life ended before it had a chance to start, and the other's life and career over as he knew it. |
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Posted: 9/18/2005 12:46:45 PM EDT
[#27]
Hey...when I got hired we were still using "real" guns in training. Exactly like O_P said, 'cept ours were Smith Model 10s and the cylinder bores had been filled with lead slugs. This was in the early 90s. I'm now using airsoft guns in all my force-on-force training. Back to the topic at hand: Fellow LEO or not, fellow instructor or not, this guy fucked-up, plain and simple. NO live weapons and NO live ammo in the training area. Period. Sheep |
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Posted: 9/18/2005 5:04:43 PM EDT
[#28]
One word: Complacency |
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Posted: 9/18/2005 5:17:54 PM EDT
[#29]
I will unfortunately predict the trainer will commit suicide within a year. And there is no excuse at all for what happened. None whatsoever. Pure negligence.
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Posted: 9/19/2005 4:33:31 AM EDT
[#30]
Using simunitions weapons and ONLY simunitions weapons along with related safety gear. We didn't run around pointing our roscoes at each other. One older school method was using blanks loaded with cotton balls, which basically used a primed casing and no powder to throw out the cotton and show you where the bullets would have roughly gone. That was actually a pretty cool way of doing things, but you could only do it with revolvers. Semi autos obviously wouldn't cycle with "ammo" like that. When those revolvers were used, you showed up unarmed and with no ammunition, and the instructors loaded and unloaded each weapon FOR you. No chances were taken.
Simunitions weapons, red guns, demilled guns, revolvers shooting cotton blanks....
Simunitions weapons, red guns, demilled guns, revolvers shooting cotton blanks....
Dummy guns are great for drills like that, as well as groundfighting drills, weapon retention, etc. But any of the other options I mentioned will work the same. I believe that with modern options you can have the highest quality training with the absolute minimum of risk if you just go about the training intelligently. |
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Posted: 9/19/2005 4:36:15 AM EDT
[#31]
Bingo. When I don't have a red gun to do instruction with and need a "gun like" thing, I just yank the slide and barrel off of a Beretta and use only the grip frame. I have even been known to do some instruction with a *GASP* airsoft pistol painted yellow. I am not proud of that fact, however, so I don't talk about it much.... |
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Posted: 9/19/2005 4:47:13 AM EDT
[#32]
If your gonna do drills with real weapons, best to show and/or have 2 or 3 people clear that weapon.
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Posted: 9/19/2005 5:01:57 AM EDT
[#33]
that is horrible! these things should never happen under those conditions! involuntary manslaughter charges not a payed leave
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Posted: 9/19/2005 5:28:04 AM EDT
[#34]
Horrible as it may be, I thought the same thing. With this one accident, his entire career and identity as a qualified firearms instructor has been destroyed. Being responsible for another person's death is hard enough by itself to deal with, but he'll have to deal with it now as a man who has had his entire identity diminished. I hope he gets through this, but in all likelihood, he could be another tragedy that results from this event. |
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Posted: 9/19/2005 5:32:48 AM EDT
[#35]
tag
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Posted: 9/19/2005 1:19:10 PM EDT
[#36]
Apparently pointing real firearms at each other in training is not as uncommon and some believe. I also used revolvers loaded with blanks in scenario training in the academy. I also recall 40+ recruits all practising drawing, dry firing, and reholstering in a crowded classroom with real firearms on the day they were issued. |
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Posted: 9/19/2005 2:18:44 PM EDT
[#37]
Years ago the county police academy was using red handled plugged barrel revolvers loaded with primed cases for "safe house" training. Everyone was patted down and had to turn their pockets inside out before going in. Demonstrations were done with a functioning firearm and started out with showing everyone that the weapon was unloaded in both chamber and magazine. Training with functioning shotguns was done in classrooms with dummy rounds and once again everyone had to have their pockets turned inside out. I know of four police officer involved ND's. Two resulted in non-fatal injuries to the officers. 1. Officer was "cleaning" his .357 mag revolver and managed to shoot himself in the stomach. That was the officer's story anyway. 2. Officer was returning his OD/BU revolver to his shoulder holster and shot himself in the armpit. That was the officer's story anyway. 3. Officer was transporting a cuffed subject who moved his hands to the front and discharged his cage mounted shotgun blowing out the R/F window and post of the cruiser. The shotgun had a chambered round in violation of departmental policy. 4. Officer discharged a shotgun loaded with a slug into the roof of the station house. He claimed the shotgun malfunctioned but upon inspection no defect was found. |
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Posted: 9/19/2005 2:44:15 PM EDT
[#38]
You bring up an interesting subject. My experience is that the vast majority of "accidental discharges" are falsely reported. I knew one police officer that stated that he ran into the station in a rain storm. His pistol got wet. He was drying it off when he dropped it and it "struck the counter, going off", and shooting a hole in a wall. You and I know that S&W revolvers do not "go off" if dropped on a counter. He pulled the trigger. But he was too embarrassed to say that, so blamed it on "dropping" the weapon. I do not trust "first person" accounts on AD's. |
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