4473's... are they really destroyed? are other records kept? - Page 2

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 4473's... are they really destroyed? are other records kept? (Page 2 of 3)

Posted: 9/10/2005 7:26:11 AM EDT

[#1]

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Unless the law has changed, as long as the FFL you bought a firearm from remains in business so do the records at that business. Once the business ceases operations or hands in its FFL, the 4473's are mailed to a govt. warehouse. At least that is the way it was when I had a FFL back in the 80's.

This is correct. I am currently an FFL , and the regulations require me to send my bound record book and all 4473s to them when I go out of business.

Read the back of one of your 4473s. You are only obligated to maintain them for 20 years.

Now if you go out of business before they are 20 years old then yes they are turned over to ATF.

Sure enough, there it is - "INSTRUCTIONS TO TRANSFEROR, Number 14. [ . . .] Forms must be retained for at least 20 years."

I've only been in business for just short of 3 years, so this hasn't been an issue yet

.

Thanks, SteyrAug, for pointing that out.

Posted: 9/10/2005 7:28:43 AM EDT

[#2]

ffl's need to take more fishing trips

Posted: 9/10/2005 7:39:06 AM EDT

[#3]

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That's how the ATF's firearms tracing unit backtracks guns used in crimes. The contact the manufacturer/distributor to find out what gun dealer received the firearm, then tell him to give them the 4473 info then contact the purchaser and try to follow the trail from there.

Aimless,.....I know from experiance if the local PD wants a list of your firearms purchased with a 4473 they get it. In 1999 I challanged the local PD concerning their "may issue" licencing policy. They had a list of every firearm I ever purchased on a 4473 back to the early 80's.

Posted: 9/10/2005 7:59:50 AM EDT

[#4]

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is there a national database that keeps track of gun owners in America?
I believe there is.
It's a shitty database if you think it comes from the NICS system.

All they know is handgun or longun.

You may have bought one Skeet shotgun or 3 AR-15s, they don't know.
Reputable sources tell me Big Brother has specific firearm info on gunowners. Like dates, locations, serial numbers.

When a dealer runs a NICS check, they never get any of that information. All they get is your personal info and whether it is a longun or handgun. Short of you sending them an itemized list or retreiving the information from your dealer in which case the dealer will ket you know that they had, there is simply no way they can obtain that information.

It could be 10 AR lowers and all your FFL tells them is "Longgun".

Posted: 9/10/2005 8:00:37 AM EDT

[#5]

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You can probably count on those records never being erased.

I don't worry about 4473s existing because they are guns that I lawfully own and have performed all necessary actions to purchase.

You don't watch the news much do you?

Posted: 9/10/2005 8:00:48 AM EDT

[#6]

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You can probably count on those records never being erased.

I don't worry about 4473s existing because they are guns that I lawfully own and have performed all necessary actions to purchase.
Are you paying attention to what is happening in New Orleans?!?

They arent using 4473, they are seeing a gun and taking it.

Posted: 9/10/2005 8:06:30 AM EDT

[#7]

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is there a national database that keeps track of gun owners in America?
I believe there is.
It's a shitty database if you think it comes from the NICS system.

All they know is handgun or longun.

You may have bought one Skeet shotgun or 3 AR-15s, they don't know.
Reputable sources tell me Big Brother has specific firearm info on gunowners. Like dates, locations, serial numbers.

When a dealer runs a NICS check, they never get any of that information. All they get is your personal info and whether it is a longun or handgun. Short of you sending them an itemized list or retreiving the information from your dealer in which case the dealer will ket you know that they had, there is simply no way they can obtain that information.

It could be 10 AR lowers and all your FFL tells them is "Longgun".

I never said they were using NICS to know what firearms you own, when you bought them and from where.

SteyrAUG brought up using NICS, not me.

See the post from mags four posts above for yet another testimonial.

Posted: 9/10/2005 8:08:46 AM EDT

[#8]

There is simply no physical way short of obtaining that info from the receiving FFL that they could know the stuff you listed, it is impossible unless you subscribe to the concept of "remote viewing".

Posted: 9/10/2005 8:10:16 AM EDT

[#9]

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There is simply no physical way short of obtaining that info from the receiving FFL that they could know the stuff you listed, it is impossible unless you subscribe to the concept of "remote viewing".

And so your point is???

Posted: 9/10/2005 8:11:22 AM EDT

[#10]

What you proposed is currenlty not logistically possible. You are spreading disinformation and scaring people needlessly.

If you want to know what info they have access to, ask an FFL or an ex-FFL such as myself because we know the actual process.

Posted: 9/10/2005 8:12:58 AM EDT

[#11]

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is there a national database that keeps track of gun owners in America?
I believe there is.
It's a shitty database if you think it comes from the NICS system.

All they know is handgun or longun.

You may have bought one Skeet shotgun or 3 AR-15s, they don't know.
Reputable sources tell me Big Brother has specific firearm info on gunowners. Like dates, locations, serial numbers.

Must be those new sattelites they have. Everytime I do a background check I never have provided the make or model much less serial numbers.

Posted: 9/10/2005 8:15:51 AM EDT

[#12]

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Unless the law has changed, as long as the FFL you bought a firearm from remains in business so do the records at that business. Once the business ceases operations or hands in its FFL, the 4473's are mailed to a govt. warehouse. At least that is the way it was when I had a FFL back in the 80's.

This is correct. I am currently an FFL , and the regulations require me to send my bound record book and all 4473s to them when I go out of business.

Read the back of one of your 4473s. You are only obligated to maintain them for 20 years.

Now if you go out of business before they are 20 years old then yes they are turned over to ATF.

Sure enough, there it is - "INSTRUCTIONS TO TRANSFEROR, Number 14. [ . . .] Forms must be retained for at least 20 years."

I've only been in business for just short of 3 years, so this hasn't been an issue yet.

Thanks, SteyrAug, for pointing that out.

No prob. I've been a FFL for 4 years so I know everything.

Remeber to use that as a sales technique..."If you guys ensure I'm in business 20 years from now I promise to give you your old 4473s."

Posted: 9/10/2005 8:17:09 AM EDT

[#13]

The_Macallan is correct.

Posted: 9/10/2005 8:17:19 AM EDT

[#14]

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What you proposed is currenlty not logistically possible. You are spreading disinformation and scaring people needlessly.

If you want to know what info they have access to, ask an FFL or an ex-FFL such as myself because we know the actual process.

There's no disinformation here.

Explain mags experience. There are many like it.

Out of the blue the Gov't/LEO obtains a list with details of every nonprivately-acquired firearm you ever bought on it without you knowing about it.

Posted: 9/10/2005 8:19:06 AM EDT

[#15]

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is there a national database that keeps track of gun owners in America?
I believe there is.
It's a shitty database if you think it comes from the NICS system.

All they know is handgun or longun.

You may have bought one Skeet shotgun or 3 AR-15s, they don't know.
Reputable sources tell me Big Brother has specific firearm info on gunowners. Like dates, locations, serial numbers.

Must be those new sattelites they have. Everytime I do a background check I never have provided the make or model much less serial numbers.

I never said it was via NICS.

Posted: 9/10/2005 8:21:11 AM EDT

[#16]

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It could be 10 AR lowers and all your FFL tells them is "Longgun".
I never said they were using NICS to know what firearms you own, when you bought them and from where.

SteyrAUG brought up using NICS, not me.

See the post from mags four posts above for yet another testimonial.

Could be he is in a state with state registration.

And obviously ATF does have some form of 'database' created by the 4473s of FFLs that have retired or gone out of business. There are even a few instances of ATF illegally obtaining this information.

One incident about a ATF agent doing a record search comes to mind. She was researching a single 4473 and was given access to the computer (the dealer was using a computer bound book) and she hooked up her laptop and attempted to download all of the records, not just the one she wanted.

Posted: 9/10/2005 8:21:26 AM EDT

[#17]

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is there a national database that keeps track of gun owners in America?
I believe there is.

Of course there is a database.

The 4473s we are discussing constitute a database. A paper database as opposed to a computerized database, but a database nonetheless. A data base is simply an indexed method of information storage and retrieval. The medium is irrelevant.

Posted: 9/10/2005 8:21:29 AM EDT

[#18]

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What you proposed is currenlty not logistically possible. You are spreading disinformation and scaring people needlessly.

If you want to know what info they have access to, ask an FFL or an ex-FFL such as myself because we know the actual process.
There's no disinformation here.

Explain mags experience. There are many like it.

Out of the blue the Gov't/LEO obtains a list with details of every nonprivately-acquired firearm you ever bought on it without you knowing about it.

Perhaps the police got them from his FFL since this is the only place this information exists in that form.

Posted: 9/10/2005 8:21:49 AM EDT

[#19]

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I know from experiance if the local PD wants a list of your firearms purchased with a 4473 they get it. In 1999 I challanged the local PD concerning their "may issue" licencing policy. They had a list of every firearm I ever purchased on a 4473 back to the early 80's.

Posted: 9/10/2005 8:22:47 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
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What you proposed is currenlty not logistically possible. You are spreading disinformation and scaring people needlessly.

If you want to know what info they have access to, ask an FFL or an ex-FFL such as myself because we know the actual process.
There's no disinformation here.

Explain mags experience. There are many like it.

Out of the blue the Gov't/LEO obtains a list with details of every nonprivately-acquired firearm you ever bought on it without you knowing about it.

How are you suggesting they are getting that information?

My 4473s and the data on them are kept in my safe.

Posted: 9/10/2005 8:25:01 AM EDT

[#21]

Yes, its true when I call in a NICS check, I only tell them its a handgun, revolver, shotgun or rifle. They do not get the SSN/make or model over the phone. They dont know if you got a 10/22 or an AR-15. That does not mean that they cant/wont come to the shop and copy the back of the 4473 which does have this info.

Again, if you purchase more that 1 handgun or revolver in a 5 day period, the ATF does get all of your and the weapons info faxed to them.

Posted: 9/10/2005 8:25:26 AM EDT

[#22]

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is there a national database that keeps track of gun owners in America?
I believe there is.

Of course there is a database.

The 4473s we are discussing constitute a database. A paper database as opposed to a computerized database, but a database nonetheless. A data base is simply an indexed method of information storage and retrieval. The medium is irrelevant.

Bingo.

Posted: 9/10/2005 8:27:55 AM EDT

[#23]

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What you proposed is currenlty not logistically possible. You are spreading disinformation and scaring people needlessly.

If you want to know what info they have access to, ask an FFL or an ex-FFL such as myself because we know the actual process.
There's no disinformation here.

Explain mags experience. There are many like it.

Out of the blue the Gov't/LEO obtains a list with details of every nonprivately-acquired firearm you ever bought on it without you knowing about it.
How are you suggesting they are getting that information?

My 4473s and the data on them are kept in my safe.

Until the Gov gets around to wanting it.

Are you allowed to hide them from Gov/LEO if/when they come looking?

Posted: 9/10/2005 8:28:31 AM EDT

[#24]

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I know from experiance if the local PD wants a list of your firearms purchased with a 4473 they get it. In 1999 I challanged the local PD concerning their "may issue" licencing policy. They had a list of every firearm I ever purchased on a 4473 back to the early 80's.

I have personally witnessed a similar thing with my own eyes. You can take it for what its worth.

Posted: 9/10/2005 8:31:17 AM EDT

[#25]

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Quoted:
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What you proposed is currenlty not logistically possible. You are spreading disinformation and scaring people needlessly.

If you want to know what info they have access to, ask an FFL or an ex-FFL such as myself because we know the actual process.
There's no disinformation here.

Explain mags experience. There are many like it.

Out of the blue the Gov't/LEO obtains a list with details of every nonprivately-acquired firearm you ever bought on it without you knowing about it.
Perhaps the police got them from his FFL since this is the only place this information exists in that form.

Yes.

FFLs are simply storing GOVERNMENT FORMS on all firearm puchases.

Those are not YOUR documents. They belong to the Gov't. And the Gov't can "claim" them anytime they want and you will not refuse to give them up if/when they come knocking for them.

Posted: 9/10/2005 8:33:41 AM EDT

[#26]

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I know from experiance if the local PD wants a list of your firearms purchased with a 4473 they get it. In 1999 I challanged the local PD concerning their "may issue" licencing policy. They had a list of every firearm I ever purchased on a 4473 back to the early 80's.

I have personally witnessed a similar thing with my own eyes. You can take it for what its worth.

I'm sure there are MANY law-abiding firearm-owners who can tell similar tales.

Posted: 9/10/2005 8:37:35 AM EDT

[#27]

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What you proposed is currenlty not logistically possible. You are spreading disinformation and scaring people needlessly.

If you want to know what info they have access to, ask an FFL or an ex-FFL such as myself because we know the actual process.
There's no disinformation here.

Explain mags experience. There are many like it.

Out of the blue the Gov't/LEO obtains a list with details of every nonprivately-acquired firearm you ever bought on it without you knowing about it.
How are you suggesting they are getting that information?

My 4473s and the data on them are kept in my safe.
Until the Gov gets around to wanting it.

Are you allowed to hide them from Gov/LEO if/when they come looking?

No but they are only allowed (suppossedly) to seek information on a specific firearm if it is a gun search or an individual if an unauthorized person attempted to acquire a firearm.

I have had one instance of each.

In the first case a gun was recovered from a crime scene (it was stolen) for the purchaser. The police contacted the manufacturer who provided a paper trail of distributors and dealers that ended with me. I then looked it up and found the 4473 when it was sold. Based upon that information they found a report of the gun being stolen and matched the information and the owner got his gun back.

In the second case a person tried to buy a gun that resulted in a non approval. 2 weeks later ATF requested a copy of the non approved 4473. I have no idea what became of that situation.

But for all my other 4473s ATF has no idea who the people are or what kinds of guns are on them. And in 20 years those 4473s won't even exist.

ATF is allowed to access 4473 in cases where guns were used in crimes or unauthorized individuals attempt to buy firearms.

Now in states with "state registration" the state knows EVERYTHING and I imagine provides that information to ATF.

That could be the situation with mags example, or maybe all the dealers he bought from went out of business. I don't know.

Posted: 9/10/2005 8:39:16 AM EDT

[#28]

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Quoted:
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What you proposed is currenlty not logistically possible. You are spreading disinformation and scaring people needlessly.

If you want to know what info they have access to, ask an FFL or an ex-FFL such as myself because we know the actual process.
There's no disinformation here.

Explain mags experience. There are many like it.

Out of the blue the Gov't/LEO obtains a list with details of every nonprivately-acquired firearm you ever bought on it without you knowing about it.
Perhaps the police got them from his FFL since this is the only place this information exists in that form.
Yes.

FFLs are simply storing GOVERNMENT FORMS on all firearm puchases.

Those are not YOUR documents. They belong to the Gov't. And the Gov't can "claim" them anytime they want and you will not refuse to give them up if/when they come knocking for them.

Unless they don't exist anymore. I know many FFLs who only have 4473s going back about 10 years. The 20 year requirement is a recent one. These guys have shredded thousands of 4473s.

The database doesn't exist at that point.

Posted: 9/10/2005 8:49:08 AM EDT

[#29]

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But for all my other 4473s ATF has no idea who the people are or what kinds of guns are on them. And in 20 years those 4473s won't even exist.

Until the law changes and they extend it... again.

Quoted:
ATF is allowed to access 4473 in cases where guns were used in crimes or unauthorized individuals attempt to buy firearms.

Now in states with "state registration" the state knows EVERYTHING and I imagine provides that information to ATF.

That could be the situation with mags example, or maybe all the dealers he bought from went out of business. I don't know.

My point was that there IS a Gov't "database" on gunowners with details about every purchase they've ever made that the Gov't can access whenever they want - and you as an FFL are simply storing those files for them.

Posted: 9/10/2005 8:52:10 AM EDT

[#30]

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Unless they don't exist anymore. I know many FFLs who only have 4473s going back about 10 years. The 20 year requirement is a recent one. These guys have shredded thousands of 4473s.

The database doesn't exist at that point.

There are "holes" and "lost information" in every kind of database. No database is perfect, that's a given.

I'm hoping my very first firearm-purchase, a 10/22 bought 24 years ago is one of those that was "expired".
Maybe that's ONE firearm that I can keep.

Posted: 9/10/2005 8:59:20 AM EDT

[#31]

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But for all my other 4473s ATF has no idea who the people are or what kinds of guns are on them. And in 20 years those 4473s won't even exist.
Until the law changes and they extend it... again.

Then that will be for new transactions on a new edition 4473. The disposition instructions is stamped on the back of the 4473 and if it says 20 years, it stays 20 years.

Posted: 9/10/2005 9:08:21 AM EDT

[#32]

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But for all my other 4473s ATF has no idea who the people are or what kinds of guns are on them. And in 20 years those 4473s won't even exist.
Until the law changes and they extend it... again.
Then that will be for new transactions on a new edition 4473. The disposition instructions is stamped on the back of the 4473 and if it says 20 years, it stays 20 years.

So the ones that were filed back when it was 10 years are still going to be destroyed after 10 years?

Do FFLs really go through their all their 4473 files and destroy the old ones periodically as they expire?

Posted: 9/10/2005 9:15:24 AM EDT

[#33]

So the ones that were filed back when it was 10 years are still going to be destroyed after 10 years?

Do FFLs really go through their all their 4473 files and destroy the old ones periodically as they expire?

If the FFL wants to he can. The destruction date is part of the instructions that are printed on the back of the form. It belongs to each individual form.

Posted: 9/10/2005 9:21:54 AM EDT

[#34]

Our county used to track handgun sales until they found out it was illegal.

Posted: 9/10/2005 9:31:26 AM EDT

[#35]

Boating accidents do happen. Floods also. I wonder how many 4473's turned to mush in NO last week. I did hear an ATF type say that they are suspicious of fires, especially when the fire is confined to one closet or corner of the basement.

Whatever the cut-off time is, ATF has told me that they scan ALL of the closed dealer records that are sent to them at their facility in WV. I got a call from them recently on a handgun that I had sold in 1978. I was (fortunatly) able to find the 4473 and furnish the info to them.

Posted: 9/10/2005 9:40:56 AM EDT

[#36]

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damn, it looks like i need to start looking into 80% recievers

Don't sweat it bud. They already know you have guns. They already know we all do.

If i buy a few 80% lowers then they will be hard pressed to know about them. They will have a hard time knowing about the ones i have now,because i sold them. I put up a sign on local bulliten board and they are all gone,paid in cash did not ask the guys name.

LMAO. They already know you have guns all they ahve to do is tear your house apart and one day they might.

If you stash a few away from your home you MAY be able to fool them but my guess is that if you are on their radar screen and they don't like your answers they will find some reaosn to dump you in a hole somwhere until you tell them what they want to hear. Best of luck with your plan though.

My opinion on the subject is that I am going to just be prepared to kick ass before they get to me, if it ever comes down to that. Well laid plans of mice and men, and all that.

Posted: 9/10/2005 9:45:24 AM EDT

[#37]

Well, the way the AR-15's were rounded up on the East Coast when that Sniper Malvo was killing people, the way Makarov owners were visited after that Judge in Seattle got killed and the way the cops are confiscating guns in New Orleans (how do they know where to go?) would make one a little leery about believing the records are destroyed...ever.

Posted: 9/10/2005 9:54:46 AM EDT

[#38]

I haven't read the entire thread, however, I'll tell you what I do with 4473's as a dealer.

I have them in a manila folder at my shop.

The BATFE comes by and looks at them about once a year and tells you whether or not you're doing them right. I was neglecting to put the date I called NICS on several of mine in my first year.

Until I am out of business or the BATFE requests them, I'll keep them.

Even if the BATFE requests to see them, they'll need to make copies because the 4473's must match your bound book tracking all transactions.

They are NOT to be given to the local PD. Copies can be made, and info that is on them can be given if requested for an investigation, but, they MUST stay with the bound book.

Posted: 9/10/2005 10:00:29 AM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
Until the law changes and they extend it... again.

Didn't work for those records that have been shredded. And what you don't understand is this. If they extended it tommarow to 50 years, I could STILL shred every 4473s I have currently in 20 years. The dates of storage do NOT retroactively apply. The expiration date is right there ON the 4473.

Quoted:My point was that there IS a Gov't "database" on gunowners with details about every purchase they've ever made that the Gov't can access whenever they want - and you as an FFL are simply storing those files for them.

But the problem is this. That "database" destroys itself after X number of years (20 on recent 4473s) and it not a "database" for use at the discretion of ATF or anyone else.

The ATF has to be doing a SPECIFIC firearm trace or requesting a SPECIFIC 4473 (in all cases I'm aware of they are "non approvals.") They cannot simply contact SteyrAUGs Guns And Tactical Zombie Supplies and say hey we need all the 4473s for The_Macallan, it just doesn't work that way.

Now there is a "potential" database IF the ATF could ever demand that ALL 4473s be provided to them but so far gun rights activists have prevented that from being a reality.

But the point I'm saying is your scenario of FFLs being the record holders FOR ATF where they can simply call and say "Hey what have you got on this guy?" absoluely DOES NOT exist.

Posted: 9/10/2005 10:01:56 AM EDT

[#40]

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But for all my other 4473s ATF has no idea who the people are or what kinds of guns are on them. And in 20 years those 4473s won't even exist.
Until the law changes and they extend it... again.
Then that will be for new transactions on a new edition 4473. The disposition instructions is stamped on the back of the 4473 and if it says 20 years, it stays 20 years.
So the ones that were filed back when it was 10 years are still going to be destroyed after 10 years?

Do FFLs really go through their all their 4473 files and destroy the old ones periodically as they expire?

Yes, that is correct.

And they CAN destroy them. Some don't. You think they'd be glad to dump that shit.

Posted: 9/10/2005 10:45:06 AM EDT

[#41]

A good friend of mine had a tragic fire after he closed up shop. It was strange. It was contained to one corner of his shop. Sadly, all his 4473's were destroyed. I shed a tear with him over the tragic incident.

My old employer has every single 4473 yet, some dating back almost 30 years.

ATF has come to my old shop and electronically scanned 4473's against federal law. As I pointed this out to the owner, he told me to be quiet and let it be.

So, from what I understand and see, ATF is still electronically scanning gun owner records, logging them and storing them on a computer, against the 1986 FOPA law.

IF ATF can thumb its nose at the 1986 FOPA, why do we have to follow the same law? I'd love to build me a nice, shiney new M16.

Another question. If we get charged and convicted of a FOPA violation, we get 10 years and $20,000 fine. Why don't the individual ATF agents that break the same law get the same sentance? Same law, right? HMMMM????

Posted: 9/10/2005 10:58:47 AM EDT

[#42]

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Until the law changes and they extend it... again.

If they extended it tommarow to 50 years, I could STILL shred every 4473s I have currently in 20 years.

Maybe.

Unless they made a new law nullifying the old storage requirement.

Until then, though, keep shredding those 21 year old 4473s!

Posted: 9/10/2005 12:17:02 PM EDT

[#43]

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is there a national database that keeps track of gun owners in America?
I believe there is.
You believe there is?
I believe there is.
I don't fuckin' care if there is!!!

They want my guns? Come and fuckin' get 'em!
When you're not home, they will come and get them.

And when you arrive home, you'll be disarmed faster than than you can say "What's the problem officer?".

In other words... you won't even see it coming.

Good thing I don't keep most of my firearms at home.........

Posted: 9/10/2005 2:05:01 PM EDT

[#44]

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damn, it looks like i need to start looking into 80% recievers

Don't sweat it bud. They already know you have guns. They already know we all do.

If i buy a few 80% lowers then they will be hard pressed to know about them. They will have a hard time knowing about the ones i have now,because i sold them. I put up a sign on local bulliten board and they are all gone,paid in cash did not ask the guys name.

LMAO. They already know you have guns all they ahve to do is tear your house apart and one day they might.

If you stash a few away from your home you MAY be able to fool them but my guess is that if you are on their radar screen and they don't like your answers they will find some reaosn to dump you in a hole somwhere until you tell them what they want to hear. Best of luck with your plan though.

My opinion on the subject is that I am going to just be prepared to kick ass before they get to me, if it ever comes down to that. Well laid plans of mice and men, and all that.

Or they could do what the Soviets did in every country they took over. If you even had one gun, you were on the shit list. No matter that you turned in every registered gun; there was always the suspicion that might have stashed some more. Gun owners were typically either shot, or shipped off to some "re-education camp" that they later died in. In any case, dead. So even if you think you're clever and have some off the books guns, you could be just as screwed. Best bet is for you to not let them get their paws on you, or you're done for.

I don't worry about it. If they come for the guns, and I can't get away, I'm dead. Just want to take as many of them with me as I can. If I can evade and exact retribution later, that's preferable, but may not be possible. Make it very expensive for them though.

Posted: 9/10/2005 2:15:11 PM EDT

[#45]

they keep them so they can come to your house and confiscate your guns

Posted: 9/10/2005 3:51:45 PM EDT

[#46]

FOPA 1986 prevents them from doing this (supposedly).

In all actuality I bet the BATFE can't find half the 4473s it's collected.

CRC

Posted: 9/10/2005 4:51:05 PM EDT

[#47]

They are kept at the gunshop INDEFINANTLY and if the shop closes they get sent to the ATF

Posted: 9/10/2005 5:02:52 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
They are kept at the gunshop INDEFINANTLY and if the shop closes they get sent to the ATF

You haven't read the thread before you posted, have you?

Posted: 9/10/2005 8:40:42 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
but he gov isn't supposed to lie to us, they promised

Courts have said it's OK for them to operate under pretexts.

Posted: 9/11/2005 6:51:08 AM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
But for all my other 4473s ATF has no idea who the people are or what kinds of guns are on them. And in 20 years those 4473s won't even exist.
Until the law changes and they extend it... again.

Then that will be for new transactions on a new edition 4473. The disposition instructions is stamped on the back of the 4473 and if it says 20 years, it stays 20 years.

I'm afraid not. The legal requirement to maintain the 4473 for 20 years is not the instruction on the form. That is only for information as to the requirement when the form was printed. The legal requirements are contained in the law and in the Code of Federal Regulations. If the requirement was extended to 25 years, it would apply to all 4473s, regardless of the issue date of the form.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 4473's... are they really destroyed? are other records kept? (Page 2 of 3)

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