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Posted: 7/19/2001 4:55:00 PM EDT
Well, I finally found a preban lower receiver, and am wondering what upper to put on it. I've already got a 20" FN upper, so I want to build a carbine. I'm looking at a 14.5" with permanent flash hider Bushmaster M4 upper and was wondering what your opinions were. How's the accuracy out to say, 300 or 400 yards? Is there that much differance between a 14.5" or a 16" carbine? How about reliability? I've heard conflicting opinions (imagine that) on shorter barrels and how well they function. Anyway, thanks in advance.
Link Posted: 7/19/2001 5:21:22 PM EDT
I have a bushmaster 14.5 with permanently attached vortex It's plenty accurate and light too. Reliability has never been a problem. I use only Bushmaster and Colt parts.
Link Posted: 7/19/2001 7:28:16 PM EDT
I'm in the same boat, I recently purchased a NIB Bushy preban, has all the EVIL features, but has a 11.5" barrel with the 5.5 flash hider(yukk) I was trying to figure out which barrel to add also. My 3 options are... 14.5 M4 with phantom(permenantly attached) 16"M4 cut down, and add A2 flash hider to bring back to 16"(permenantly attached) 16" M4 threaded with A2 flash hider(just over 16" total) I am leaning towards the last one only because I could remove the flash hider and do whatever to it. Sooooo, whatcha guys think ??? [x]
Link Posted: 7/19/2001 7:50:43 PM EDT
Bushmaster Dissipator flat-top with front sight. Add EVIL features. Enjoy.
Link Posted: 7/19/2001 8:46:54 PM EDT
Unless you're planning on attaching a 40mm M203 or a 37mm M203 clone built on a milspec 203 frame, I think its a no-brainer; just get the 16". What do you get with an M4? A permanently attached flash hider (can't unscrew it like on a 16" and use a brake if you want). You get 1.5" less barrel length with an associated minor loss in accuracy and velocity. And oh, yes, with the M4 you get that cool step-down in the barrel so you can use a 40mm M203 (seriously, do you have a 40mm or is it just the "cool" factor you want?) Personally, I'd take the more functional 16". While I can have a short 14.5" barrel if I want on my M16's, I still take the 16". I'd rather have the improvement in accuracy and velocity that 1.5" gives (however slight it may be) over the appearance. I'll take function over form anyday, but thats a judgement you've got to make - form over function or vice-versa?
Link Posted: 7/19/2001 8:55:25 PM EDT
I agree with Shaggy, you could get the 16" upper and order M-4 handguards(about $50). Thats what I did.
Link Posted: 7/20/2001 5:06:45 PM EDT
From what I understand, the grenade launcher isn't the only reason for the M4 barrel. Aren't the M4 barrels also lighter? I know my 20" FN Government Profile wieghs as much as my 16" H-Bar. And I'm pretty sure you can get 16" uppers. I guess my big concerns about the 14.5" and the 16" M4 are the accuracy and reliabilty. Is there REALLY that much difference between the two? I mean, I don't think I'm going to be putting a muzzle break on it at any point.
Link Posted: 7/20/2001 5:12:19 PM EDT
I own a 14.5" Busmaster, listed as M4A3 by them. Reliable, accurate lightweight and versatile, what can i say....and since we can own M203s here, i can mount one on my carbine [:)] And doesn´t THIS[img]http://www.colt.com/colt/assets/images/a2f20_m4carbine.gif[/img] look a bit nicer than a 16" post ban whiz bang like THIS [img]http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/Images/pcwa3s16.gif[/img] And if the high speed boys use it daily, why don´t we.
Link Posted: 7/20/2001 5:32:49 PM EDT
I have a Colt M4gery with a flat top and 14.5" M4 barrel. It has the permanently attached phantom flash suppressor and I love it. There would be little velocity gain and almost no accuracy gain by going with the 16" barrel. Accuracy is more a function of barrel and ammunition quality than length. The 14.5" M4 barrel would be theoretically more reliable due to the distance forward of the front sight base being identical to the dimensions of the 20" M16A2 barrel. Again, the reliability is more a function of the quality of the rifle rather than the barrel length. Aesthetically, I think the 16" M4 barrel looks overly long past the front sight base. The 14.5" barrel retains the proper military M4A1 appearance. All said and done, you can't go wrong with either as long as it's made by as reputable manufacturer (i.e. Colt, Bushmaster, etc.)
Link Posted: 7/20/2001 6:42:40 PM EDT
My M4gery has an M4 upper with a 16" HBAR barrel and a Vortex on the end. So I suppose somebody could say there isn't enough M4 to call it a M4gery. I'm not interested in the step down, I like the vortex and I'd add fluting to the barrel if I thought I could justify cost / worth to myself.
Link Posted: 8/1/2001 9:20:35 AM EDT
Government M4 barrels have a skinny profile under the handguards reducing weight. Also the step cut reduces weight by a bit more, as well weight from being 1.5" shorter. Velocity difference from 1.5" is hardly worth mentioning. I know I can still hit a human size target at 300 yards with factory ammo while standing, so what more do you need. By it's very nature a carbine is not a sniper weapon, so why worry over loss of effective range when it's still WAY beyond where you will be shooting anyway. The carry handle dials up to 600 meters. Not that you'd ever have to shoot that far, but it's there because you can. Also why get a 16" and have such a short sight radius? The only reason I would ever own another 16" is if I got a dissipator, period. For having a short sight radius you might as well have the proper barrel to go with it. All this and I almost forgot to mention the fact that bayonets will not work on a 16" but WILL on a 14.5". As far as permanently attatching, who cares if you can remove it??? Other folks may be different than me, but I have never had any reason to remove a flash suppressor other than to freefloat a DCM gun. And in that case it was a 20" anyway and there was no need to weld it on. As far as reliability and function goes, there is no real difference caused by barrel length. The differences there are where you got it from, if it's bushmaster or some no-name brand. My recommendation is to get a 14.5" M4 w/ phantom. They are affordable, ship quickly from bushmaster, and you will be happy. They are light, they are the proper length for bayonet use, they have the same barrel length in front of the gas tube as the 20", you can have the best barrel possible for the short sight radius, if you should ever want to you can get a grenade/flare launcher, and it is still accurate at and beyond 400 yards. Remember, normal combat engagement is about 150 yards. So I don't see what the issue is all about. [:D] [img]http://www.colt.com/colt/assets/images/a2f20_m4carbine.gif[/img] [heavy] M4 ALL THE WAY, BABY!! [heavy]
Link Posted: 8/1/2001 9:28:50 AM EDT
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Link Posted: 8/1/2001 9:30:09 AM EDT
DEFINITELY go with the M4. I love mine. I don't get why anyone would pay all the extra money for a preban lower, and then not take advantage of the tele-stock.
Link Posted: 8/1/2001 9:34:51 AM EDT
M4guy, I get what your saying, but you DO have a 16" barrel. barrel + hider =16" and maybe a hair more. If someone was to go with a 16" barrel and a A2 birdcage hider, they would have 17 1/4" total length. A whole 1 1/4" longer than your m4 with phantom. to me thats not a big deal, and I think that most people who dont like the 16"M4 barrel, dislike it due to the "look" of it, it just"doesnt look right" type stuff. to me, the phantom looks no more "right" than a vortex or even tha AK brake on my other AR. the only thing that makes it look as "right" as possible would be Kurts A3 extended flash hider, which looks like a longer A2 birdcage. I still have not decided which way to go, I may even get aphantom on a 14.5, just looking around still. my.02[:D]
Link Posted: 8/1/2001 10:43:42 AM EDT
M4guy, I get what your saying, but you DO have a 16" barrel. barrel + hider =16" and maybe a hair more. If someone was to go with a 16" barrel and a A2 birdcage hider, they would have 17 1/4" total length. A whole 1 1/4" longer than your m4 with phantom.
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If you want to look at it that way that's ok too. A 2.25" long Phantom protrudes 1.5" in front of the 14.5" barrel to create exactly a 16" OAL, not counting the barrel extension. Were someone to put a Phantom on a 16" barrel they would have a 17.5" OAL. Even with just an A2 flash hider they would still have around a 17" OAL. I'd much rather have a phantom over anything, so I'd have it on any length barrel. With that, I'd rather have 16" OAL and use of my bayonet than 17.5" OAL and no use of my bayonet. Shorter length with more uses. THAT's function over form.
Link Posted: 8/1/2001 3:53:11 PM EDT
One of the neat things you can do to the 16" M4geries that you can't do to the 14.5" is unscrew the flash suppressor, get some subsonic ammo and attach a sound suppressor. The 14.5" looks a little better and you can use the bayonet. While you're stabbing the guy I'm silently (relatively) shooting him. And who really uses a bayonet anyway? I prefer to have the ability of adding a SS to my weapon than have a bayonet. Besides, I've seen neat little aluminum rings that can be fitted behind the flash suppressor on the 16" that will accomadate the bayonet. To each their own. M4guy has some good points. Solve it permanently like I did and buy both barrels.
Link Posted: 8/1/2001 5:25:52 PM EDT
That's a good point, although most people don't have suppressors. For that I'd agree to get another upper, a 16", or a machine gun. Sure, maybe nobody uses a bayonet anymore, but it sure looks cool! [:D] [img]http://wsphotofews.excite.com/032/tE/vG/sg/nU83452.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 8/1/2001 5:45:06 PM EDT
some considerations on the 14.5" M4 barrel and its ability to properly accept a bayonet - nobody will rush you if you hesitate to shoot and nobody will be reaching for your muzzle in close quarters without getting poked, THINK CROWD CONTROL and such. ;-D seriously though, there can be incidents where you may NOT wish to shoot but only keep a group at bay. you may also get caught in a reload. you may also get rushed around a blind corner. bla, bla, bla. all of the above ONLY APPLIES if you actually think of this rifle as a WEAPON and use it as such. 'range queens' and 'cool toys for big boys' NEED NOT APPLY. scott out
Link Posted: 8/1/2001 5:57:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By scottjimenez: some considerations on the 14.5" M4 barrel and its ability to properly accept a bayonet - nobody will rush you if you hesitate to shoot and nobody will be reaching for your muzzle in close quarters without getting poked, THINK CROWD CONTROL and such. ;-D seriously though, there can be incidents where you may NOT wish to shoot but only keep a group at bay. you may also get caught in a reload. you may also get rushed around a blind corner. bla, bla, bla. all of the above ONLY APPLIES if you actually think of this rifle as a WEAPON and use it as such. 'range queens' and 'cool toys for big boys' NEED NOT APPLY. scott out
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Ever actually tried to stick someone? When rounding corners or advancing the stock is placed against the shoulder with the weapon pointed at the ground, thereby making anything stuck on the muzzle kind of useless. If you hesitate when in fear of imminent bodily harm I would submit that you are a "range queen" who shouldn't have a weapon in the first place. The rifle is a weapon to begin with, it doesn't need a knife stuck on the end of it to make it one. If your qualification for a weapon is that it has a blade on it, you must consider pistols "useless toys" for "range queens." By the by, when you stick somebody with an AR-15 mounting bayonet you screw the front sight all up. Again, I say solve the dilemma and buy both barrels.
Link Posted: 8/1/2001 6:15:14 PM EDT
well damn Klem I do belive that Scott feller done called me a "range queen" cause my shotgun aint got no knife stuck on it. The shaame of it all.............
Link Posted: 8/1/2001 6:25:50 PM EDT
Considering my screen name, I don't think I really need to comment.
Link Posted: 8/1/2001 8:33:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2001 8:30:40 PM EDT by NoCompromise]
M-4's just look damn good... [img]us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/e1b92c86/bc/GUNS/__hr_guns.jpg?bcaZAu7AQStIbyob[/img]
Link Posted: 8/2/2001 5:21:42 PM EDT
i'm not talking about fear and hesitation in a shoot/no shoot situation. in fact, there are situations that have more solutions than shoot or no shoot. in what way does a FSB get screwed up when a bayo is employed? all weapons do not always have to have bayonets mounted on them, nor do they always need them. the bayonet adds to the spectrum of force that can be employed with the weapon. it is simply another soldiers' tool. it also happens to be military doctrine that has not been discarded. a range queen is not a slur against another shooter. it refers to rifles that are solely used at and intended for the shooting range, therefore outfitted and babied as such. heh, i can't believe i actually had to define 'range queen.' i forgot i was on the GD Forum where everyone thinks somebody is trying to flame them by calling them a homo or some such name. y'all need to chill. scott out
Originally Posted By rg00red: [snip] Ever actually tried to stick someone? When rounding corners or advancing the stock is placed against the shoulder with the weapon pointed at the ground, thereby making anything stuck on the muzzle kind of useless. If you hesitate when in fear of imminent bodily harm I would submit that you are a "range queen" who shouldn't have a weapon in the first place. The rifle is a weapon to begin with, it doesn't need a knife stuck on the end of it to make it one. If your qualification for a weapon is that it has a blade on it, you must consider pistols "useless toys" for "range queens." By the by, when you stick somebody with an AR-15 mounting bayonet you screw the front sight all up. Again, I say solve the dilemma and buy both barrels.
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