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my brothers college roommate bought one of those when they graduated as Pit Bulls were banned by his homeowners association. Everybody pretty much calls it an APBT. He's had complaints for owning a banned dog many times from the H.A. even though it's not... And they are BIG, strong dogs too. |
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Pitbulls have been the subject of the same sort of fearmongering as an AK47.. I mean, clearly only gangsters, thugs, and criminals have AK47s, right? No? But, you mean, popular opinion and sensationalist news stories LIED to me? That sometimes the killer evil pitbull that mauled someone was actually a lab, and that the assault rifle was actually a mini-14? Dogs are dogs. You have to be careful no matter what, and it becomes more important with dogs of uncertain lineage. Pitbulls were originally bred as dog fighting dogs. This means two things... One, they originally had incredibly tightly controlled lines as only champions would be bred out. Two, they were bred to fight DOGS, not people. They weren't guard dogs or attack dogs, but FIGHTING dogs. First bulls (hence the name), then other dogs. Part of dog fighting (which was, and is, a terrible thing) is having a well trained, and easily handled dog. If you raised a game, strong dog for combat would YOU want to get into the ring with two of them to pull them apart? Of course not. Ergo, pit dogs were bred to be exceedingly loving towards humans, and while they may be strong-willed and game, they're not trained to attack another person. Would I leave my pitbull, who's the most lovign dog I've ever known (somehwat biased on that) alone with a child? Yes, absolutely. I know my dog's line, and I know how my dog was raised. I have no fear that my dog won't attack a human being. Would I leave my dog alone in a room with a cat? Never. His preydrive is way out of line for that, and I know it. www.badrap.org |
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Those are the divisions in the stats.
I don't think you really have the evidence to prove that. It doesn't match with my experience and the pictures that I have seen, when pictures of the offending dogs were available. As I recall the latest incident in San Francisco, as one example, the owner described them as pit bulls. |
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wellllll............................ |
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which is exactly the problem. People don't know the difference between a APBT, Stafford, hell rednoses get called pitbulls 50%of the time. And all the evidence you need to to look at the reports of it.. For instance when that girl got mauled in the SF appt building the dogs were pits on the news, they weren't. I watch TV and there's a pit bull attack with a picture of a rottie. Anytime a dog bites somebody it won't be reported.. if a big dog that looks at all like a PBT it's a pit bull attack. You say it doesn't match what you've seen... can you distinguish the dogs apart just on looks alone? I would bet money the answer is no EDIT: I suck at the quote feature.. hang on a sec.. Nevermind you can figure out what's supposed to be where |
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When I firts posted, I expected exactly the responses I have rec'd....exactly. Those of you who continue to defend the breed and your ownership of them continue to post the same tired arguement. You compare them to firearms, you claim all dogs bite, you claim that it is the moronic owners and the poor breeding that leads to bad dogs. The core issue has not changed one damn bit: American kids keep being killed by pit bull dogs...or whatever you choose to call them, at a frightening rate.
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no he wanted people to agree with him that they are the devil's breed.... Designed by satan himself to eat babies.
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Ok dude, if you are gonna not only tie the knot and put the noose around your neck, I will go ahead and oblige you by pulling the lever. The exact text, which you have obviously not read, reads verbatim: the extent that attacks by 1 breed are more newsworthy than those by other breeds, our methods may have resulted in differential ascertainment of fatalities by breed. Third, because identification of a dog’s breed may be subjective (even experts may disagree on the breed of a particular dog), DBRF may be differentially ascribed to breeds with a reputation for aggression. Thanks for playing, come again soon. See that red stuff. Biased. Both on the CDC part (although they at least admit that their stats are probably flawed) and on your part. Your debate fu is weak Maynard. Read that report (it's even printed in english) and come back when you have a clue. |
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What he said. |
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No. Fucking. Duh. Dog and gun, not the same thing. Although the bans seem to work on the same basis. It looks like an evil soul stealing assault rifle! We must ban it! Every shooting is obviously an assault rifle! No other guns are as vicious! The media sucks. Some APBT owners suck. I happen to like mine. I figure if it was good enough for Teddy Roosevelt, it's good enough for me. |
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Is that a straight count or a per capita. Lab is the most popular breed and Golden is in the top 4 in the US. Straight numbers aren't statistically significant. |
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Howsabout you stay outta my yard and away from my dogs. Then I don't have to swap shots or dig a hole? I'll keep em in my yard, you stay out. Every one is happy. |
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That's sweet but the Pit bite calls I've been on have all been someone elses Pit on the loose. Which of course NEVER bit anyone before. But they do make a neat flopping around dance when they get hit by 230 gr. |
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My brother has a pitbull. Great dog. While I was housekeeping for him he crawled up on my chest and almost suffocated me...He's sort of fat.
Yep, PB's are DEADLY! |
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They also soak up the 9mm. I don't have kids. I want my dogs to go after people who come into my yard. That's what dogs are. An additional layer of defense. My problem is the assholes that spout off " If I find out someone has a Pit, I'm going over to kill it." If you are shooting my dog in my yard, you obviously intend to harm me as well. If you are willing to use deadly force to get to me, I can and will use deadly force to prevent that. Stay outta my yard, and we have no problems. Pretty simple if you ask me. GT and by the way, if one of my dogs so much as snaps at someone inappropriately, I will have shot the dog, long before the report takers (I mean cops) manage to show up. |
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As far as dogs "flopping around on the ground" after being shot, big tough talk like that really rubs me wrong.
If you gotta do a job, then do it. Running around gloating about how you love to shoot dogs is pretty fucking sad. Stay away from my neighborhood, sicko. |
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I don't love to shoot dogs. You just have to every now and then. And of course you follow it up with the coup de grace. |
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Interesting, we keep getting the same tired counter-argument from you and your ilk. When you first posted, I expected exactly the arguments and responses that I received....exactly. You guys read from the same talking points almost verbatim every time. So what's your solution? Ban the breed and exterminate it completely? Do you honestly think the drug dealers, ghetto tough guys, thugs, and idiots that have driven the breed into the ground won't move on to another, even more powerful breed such as the Presa Canario et al? What will you say when "American kids keep being killed" by Presa Canarios? Oh wait..... I know. You'll just call the Presa Canarios "pit bulls" and be done with it so your fragile worldview isn't shattered into pieces... "or whatever you choose to call them" Even though the Presa Canario is nothing like an American Pit Bull Terrier you'll still call it a pit..... Here's a solution! Instead of outright banning the American Pit Bull Terrier, let's just regulate it out of existence. We can pass strict regulations regarding the control, housing arrangements, care, and feeding of animals of the breed, establish owner liability and require owners to purchase a high-limit insurance policy at exorbitant prices. Oh crap, that won't work either. The people responsible for the negative image of the pit bull through their negligence are just that: negligent. They won't bother to carry the insurance policy or follow the regulations. The thugs et al who have continually fucked up don't give a damn about personal responsibility or laws in the first place. I don't think this solution will work either.
By the way, I always get such a big kick out of the above type of statement when I see it in an intarweb debate. Makes me snicker everytime..... "you have fallen for my diabolical scheme and posted exactly the responses I knew you would!!" |
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Well good. And for the record, I welcome and encourage anyone to shoot and kill an APBT (or any other dog) that attacks people. Back in a different time when people took personal responsiblity for their animals any APBT that displayed aggression towards humans was ruthlessly culled. Actions like that tend to breed human-aggressive traits out of a breed, ya know? Kill off the losers and the rest of the breed gets a cleaner gene pool. |
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Wasting your time arguing with them… you can't explain the concept of ANIMATE and INANIMATE things to some people. My wifes best friend breeds pit's… they are generally good dogs, show dogs too. BUT… she keeps a baseball bat in the kitchen. When I asked he why she said it was in case one of the dogs turned, which one did one day. He was playing with her two kids , playing fetch, when he decided HE wanted to play rough and jumped up and bit her son on the hand rather than wait for the ball to be thrown. She had to beat the dog unconncious to get him to let go. THAT is the danger with Pit's, they bite hard and WILL NOT let go. She still breeds Pits and swears by them. ANdy |
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Originally posted by LWilde "at a frightening rate" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Exactly the point I made earlier. "A Frightening Rate" of an average of 20 or less per year over 20 years time of recorded data, in a population of nearly 300 million people. Again, I compute the data. 0.000006% chance per year of this happening. Statistically insignificant. While tragic, it's hardly a "frightening" public menace, except to people who are inordinately "frightened" people anyway. 250% more people die every year from bee-stings! The whole issue is totally blown way out of proportion, for the desired effect of rooting a certain breed or breeds out of society, by certain "banning type" personalities who think this will stop something from happening to them. And there is no changing these people's minds with facts, because they are so afraid that they can't see. God help you if you cross the street, because there's a hell of alot more chance you'll be killed when you do that, that you'll ever have of being killed by a dog. Your precious government will never be able to protect you from everything in life that could be dangerous. If you live, you'll eventually die. The only alternative is a rubber-room, and you could even break your neck in there, if you tried hard enough. |
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My pit bulls are pretty much the friendliest dogs you might meet. They are crap as watch dogs, other than looking scary. I don't have kids, nor do I allow the little snotmonsters into my home. Again, my Pit Bull is about as dangerous as your "assault rifle". Though if you do something to make my dogs bite you, what makes you think I am going to ask them to stop? Pit Bulls and Americans. Tenacious beyond all imagination. Once again, if it was good enough for Teddy Roosevelt, it's good enough for me. |
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That wasn't the way you put it. |
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Is it really? Those are the stats for fatal attacks. What about statistics where a child has a face torn off or an armed ripped up? What's the rate of that? |
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It is recommended that you do not leave children unattended with any dog.
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what's the rate of that? --------------------------------------------------- I don't know. You tell me. Hysterics and conjecture don't hold water. Show me some facts, and compare the numbers of these "face ripping" attacks to the number of people in the general population of the US, and tell me what the percentage of chance it will happen is. Just like I did. If it's even anywhere near a hundredth of a percent, it would be astounding. Face it, you're making a big deal out of something that's less likely than getting struck by lightning. It's an emotional argument that isn't borne out in fact. I suppose that "It's for the children" will be the next argument. Or maybe "If only one person was saved by this", etc, etc. Every emotional liberal argument in the book. I happen to have a severe dislike for spiders and snakes. That doesn't mean I'm running around trying to stir up an anti-snake campaign with hype that they are a national menace. Ban the water moccasin! |
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Ok, whatever you say bud. Trust whatever animal you want to trust. I'm sure no trusted pet has EVER bitten a child. For fuck sakes. The dog mind readers out there amaze me. |
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Way to re-enforce the stereotype of cops going around shooting dogs! |
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Notice his use of the word "child" for maximum emotional effect, instead of just using the word "kid" or "person". Just like DIFi. |
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"Fight or flight" mentality from the dog is natural. If any child puts a dog into a corner it will either fight or flight. It's only natural. The responsibility lies with the dogs owner....always 100% Your sons safety is more important than your dogs liberty Taffy |
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Who, besides you, said that?
I would tell you to call me back when you have 19 years experience instead of 19 months, but you still wouldn't be close, even then. |
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Recommended by whom? |
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If you are talking about the incident where the woman got attacked in a hallway by two dogs, all the news reports that I saw identified those dogs as presa canarios right from the get-go. I never saw any reports that identified them as pit bulls. If you are talking about the more recent case where a 12-year-old (or so) kid was killed, the owner herself identified those dogs as pit bulls. In most cases that I have read about the owners themselves have identified the dogs as pit bulls. |
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I read it. I have also read the news reports and, in most of the cases I have seen, the owners themselves identified the dogs as pit bull. The most recent death of a kid in SF is just one example. Of course, you could argue that the owners don't know what kind of dog they have. |
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No, cops or anyone else don't wan't to shoot dogs, or anthing else. Sometimes it has to be done. Animal control or the shelters seldom come out, if at all and pick up a dog who's bitten someone. So do you let it run loose or put it down? |
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You said you trust your dog. You did, not I. I said that pleanty of trusted dogs have hurt kids. I'm really not trying to start a pissing match and probably should hold the language sometimes. You can feel free to trust whatever or whoever you want. 19 years aint going to convince me to leave any toddler with a large dog. I don't agree with that position, it's to be avioded as far as I am concerned. You can do as you like, I honestly don't care. It was just a statement of my position on the issue. You then seemed to imply that I am in the wrong and have a mean dog out of thin air. I never said my dog has threatned the child, I said she wouldn't know what the signs were if she saw them. I have plenty of advise from many other parents and grandparents as I don't live on the moon so I won't be needing your number. Thanks anyway. |
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None of mine ever have.
What can I tell you? The first thing is that, as your own child grows older, you will discover it is pretty hard to keep track of them all the time. Sooner or later, they will be alone with the dog -- unless the parents are absolutely manic about it. The second is that decades of experience with my own dogs has convinced me that they would make a willing and conscious decision to sacrifice their own lives for the sake of the kids in the family. If you think they can't be "trusted" then I think you either got bad dogs or you underestimate them. I could give you a number of examples from my own experience where family dogs took all kinds of punishment from children and would still defend the child against impossible odds. I think they are able to make conscious decisions in this regard. I could tell you a number of stories of my own but one of the most convincing that I have run across was written by a Nobel laureate who said his own experience convinced him that dogs could think and be "trusted." He said that, as a child he and his father drove to some place a few miles away from home. When they were returning home a sandstorm pretty well obliterated their view of the road. But they knew where they were going, so they still kept up a respectable speed. They got close to home and were met by the family dog who ran alongside the truck, barking at them madly. They didn't know what the dog wanted, so they just kept driving. The dog got more and more agitated until, finally, it threw itself in front of the front tires and was killed instantly. They stopped the truck and got out, wondering why the dog did it. As they were looking at the dog's body, the dust cleared a little and he realized that his brother had come out to greet them on his bicycle and had fallen down and was laying in the road just a few yards ahead of them. If the dog had not deliberately sacrificed its own life, they would have surely killed his brother. From my own experience with dogs, I don't find that story surprising at all. I would expect that every dog I have ever owned would be willing to make the same kind of sacrifice, and they have proved it on several occasions. I have had relatives who had dogs that went after kids in the family but those were clearly dogs that were unlike mine and that I wouldn't have trusted. Something was clearly wrong with those dogs. They also wound up dead after the first incident. |
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We owned one for 13 years. She was as gentle as can be with people, but was a cat killer. She was three or four years old when we got her from some bikers that were being evicted. They taught her to kill cats and there wasn't any way we could train her not to. We always had a fenced yard so the cats were safe as long as they stayed out of the yard. A lot of cat owners didn't believe us when we warned them so at last count the score was pit bull 14, cats 0.
Our children were older when we had her so she was never around small children and we always kept her outside and away from visiting children. All dogs are pack animals and don't see children as any kind of leader so it's a good idea to train, train, train and always be watchful no matter what the breed. |
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Also, please note that just because I'm standing up for the dogs, does not mean that I condone stupid behavior on the parts of the owners, or the victims, who may play an unknown part in the role of being bitten(or causing the behavior).
Dogs trained to be mean, or bad, are going to be mean and bad, and it's best to stay clear of them. Owners who are irresponsible and train their dogs to be mean, and then let them roam, or put them on an insufficient restraint, are putting people in danger. And of course, there ARE some dogs which are just plain mean and nasty on their own. Just like people. I'm well aware of the dynamics of these things, and if proper actions are taken on the part of the dog owner, then this stuff will be reduced to much less than it is now. Also, there are cases in which the victims either knowingly or unknowingly provoked the dog, and also entered where they should not have been, like in the dog owners yard, by going thru or over a fence. One report I read showed a victim being severely bit and claiming he did nothing to provoke the dog. It was later found out from a neighbor that the kid had daily threw things at the dog and poked it with a stick if it was close enough, on his coming home from school route. One day the fence door was a little loose, and the kid paid for it. I don't like it when it happens, but dogs can't lie their way out of it. But kids can. There are 2 sides to some of these stories, and also the newspapers with the "If it bleeds, it leads" philosophy are all too happy to generate sensationalism about these things. If the newspapers put every "slip and fall" injury on the front page, it wouldn't be long until there was a hue and cry for air-bag equpped clothing and suction cup shoes. Reason should prevail in these matters. |
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Google brings up a lot of hits for news stories with the words "pit bull attacked"
news.google.com/news?q=pit%20bull%20attacked&hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2005-28,GGLG:en&sa=N&tab=wn |
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Okay Phil, that is a good compiled list of these attacks on a world-wide scale with reports from other countries as well as the US. While it is not condensed, and harder to work with, the numbers can be derived, and divided into the world population of approximately 6 billion people, and the probablilty of bites per year computed. You can even isolate it down to the countries which are included in the reports, and use their total populations added together for a population base with which you can compute the data.
If indeed the numbers show a genuine worldwide crisis, I'll be all ears about your proposed solutions to the problem. It's a "good first step" as the Democrats like to say. |
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It's impossible to derive the worldwide bite incident rate based on report statistics because it ignores dog contact ratios, which is impossible to extrapolate from this data. For instance, of the 50 million people in Korea, very few get bitten by dogs because dogs are not kept as pets (they're eaten). The same might be true for 1 billion plus in China and 900 million in India.
However, what I can extrapolate from the data, on an anecdotal if not empirical basis, is that pit bull attacks are reported more frequently than other types of dog bite attacks. You can blame biased reporting, incorrect breed identification, etc., but my conclusion is inescapable. |
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I don't deny that "pit bull types" have more reported incidences than other breeds.
My point is that even the "worst" amount of these reported incidences is in the statistically insignificant category, and that far too much is being made of it for the small issue that it is. Okay, I've made my point that it's extremely unlikely percentage of happening. What I'd like to know from you is, why do you consider this obviously rare thing such a menace, and what to you want done to overcome it? And what are the ramifications and possibilities of "success" with the methods you propose? Because if something is done with the Pit Bulls, then Rottweilers are next on the list, and will then be the #1 bite-death hazard. After Rottweilers are gone, there will be another #1 hazardous breed. Where will you stop? No dogs allowed to live? Chihuahuas only? And let's not forget cats. I've heard of some cats scratching the hell out of people. It might be best to nip this cat problem in the bud, too. Once, when I was 7 years old, a hamster bit me on the finger, but I didn't report it so it's not in the hamster bite database. Edited to add: I would also mention that the "most dangerous breed", by far and away, to humans, are other humans. Do you have a "plan" for them too? |
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