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Posted: 8/25/2005 8:13:43 PM EDT
[#1]
 
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:03:16 PM EDT
[#2]
If you read these articles, there is a common pattern. They are all part of the drug war. You very rarely hear of these kinds of things for any other reason. The original excuse for no-knock raids was drugs.
It often gets worse than this. A few years ago they shot and killed an 83-year-old minister in his bed. |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:06:17 PM EDT
[#3]
How sad is it that a high school kid is often more efficient than our police  Maybe by using two NJSP commanders they will be as accurate as one delivery guy making minimum wage I think that every time something like this happens the police officers should be criminally charged with breaking and entering, terroristic threats, assault & battery, vandalism, etc. If they were held criminally responsible for their negligence they would be more careful not to make idiotic errors. We need to hold the police (at all levels involved), and the judges and informants/witnesses responsible when their actions cause these "mistakes". Every time something like this happens lets nail the asshole who causes it, and we will see fewer mistakes. Unfortunately it seems like the current punishment for negligence is a few days paid leave while it is investigated, then swept under the rug 
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:11:22 PM EDT
[#4]
Perhaps someone should forward them the URL for mapquest?
Tell the JBT's to try www.mapquest.com. I even made the link hot for our resident ATF troll. You're welcome. Disconnector |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:23:53 PM EDT
[#5]
One word accountability. Pizza boy screws up major like this he is gone. Cops do this a few high fives and a oh whoops sorry its over for them. I wonder what the outcome would be if the home owner picked up a weapon upon hearing the noise and was murdered by the police. Im thinking 2 months paid vacation for the whole team. |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:49:49 PM EDT
[#6]
And a dirt nap for the home owner 
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:52:41 PM EDT
[#7]
1+1 |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 11:13:54 PM EDT
[#8]
Here in the San Gabriel Valley, about 10 miles east of Los Angeles, a few years ago, the West Covina PD SWAT did a dynamic entry into an apartment at 3am looking for some suspect; anyways, those guys got the wrong apartment, and they ended up killing an innocent. Don't know what the final disposition beacause the news media all of a sudden dropped it like a hot potatoe.
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Posted: 8/25/2005 11:34:22 PM EDT
[#9]
Draw and quarter the offending JBTs right away!
We just can't have this happen any more! 
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Posted: 8/26/2005 12:03:32 AM EDT
[#10]
Is it still funny when somebody winds up dead? Do you go ahead and attend their funeral for a good chuckle? What if the guy who's door they kicked in at the wrong address was someone like me and 2 cops and myself ended up dead? Would it just be a rolling hoot then? Or would I just be a "cop killer" who had it coming? Yeah dude, kicking in the wrong persons door at o' dark thirty with guns pointed at them is a real riot where I come from. I guess I'd just have to be a cop to get the joke huh? 
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Posted: 8/26/2005 3:59:28 AM EDT
[#11]
You dont. See my first post in this thread. true wrong address raids are rare, which is why they are news. |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 4:03:13 AM EDT
[#12]
Do you have any more info on that one. I'm not doubting it occured, I am just interested in how it occured. Did the cops go to the wrong address meaning an address other than the one listed on the warrant? Or was it the "wrong" address because the bad guy wasnt there anymore? |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 4:12:35 AM EDT
[#13]
That turned out bad but ... This wasn't a swat team. Not even uniformed officers. How about call the guy on the phone after you get there and say "You are busted , just come on out". Too much cowboy stuff. Exciting, I'm sure, but usually unnecessary. |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 4:41:10 AM EDT
[#14]
i've thought about this quite a few times when the whole "wrong house raid" subject comes up here. i think a lot of people need to re-read this comment and think about the very real ramifications of allowing our .gov entities to incorporate. |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 4:46:12 AM EDT
[#15]
They wouldnt be fixing my house. They'd be buying me a new cabin on 500 acres out in the boonies. And furnishing it. And before I moved I'd be knocking on the chiefs door to sign my class 3 stamp, cause I'm an ass like that.
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Posted: 8/26/2005 5:00:49 AM EDT
[#16]
[rofls] Careful bud, some will think it really is a good idea... |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 5:06:14 AM EDT
[#17]
What happens if you kill them thinking they are robbers? Would that be defensible in court? After all, they are breaking and entering.
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Posted: 8/26/2005 6:01:04 AM EDT
[#18]
I think it is probably pretty damn certain that with all their firepower they will pretty well shred everything in your house so you will get to the funeral parlor but not court. If they kill you, they will probably say they are sorry. One of these days, though, they will inevitably run into some law-abiding gun owner who has prepared himself for home invasion robberies. |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 6:04:42 AM EDT
[#19]
?? are you serious?
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Posted: 8/26/2005 6:05:01 AM EDT
[#20]
I attended a conference of chiefs of police a few years back when one Chief made a presentation to the effect that these kinds of raids are seldom, if ever, necesssary. He said it was nearly always a better plan to wait until the dangerous perp (if any) left the house where they could surround him with overwhelming force on the street. Failing that, he said it was a better idea to simply surround the house, notify the people inside of their presence, and wait them out. Both methods, he said, would avoid these kinds of problems, and it would stop them from accidentally shooting some innocent person like the 83-year-old minister they killed a few years back on such a raid. There wasn't a single police chief at that conference who disagreed with him. |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 6:06:31 AM EDT
[#21]
Nope, I would call 411, and contact the city of West Covina and ask them. I'm sure that they would/should know. It was a number of years ago, something like 10 years or so. |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 6:10:13 AM EDT
[#22]
If it is the same one I am thinking of, the cops went completely out of town to raid the house (to Compton, I believe). IIRC, they got the name wrong entirely, and the address. Then, of course, they claimed the guy had threatened them with a gun. No gun was found. Of course, the investigation showed that no one was responsible for the guy's death. He shouldn't have jumped out of his bed surprised and tried to hide behind the bed when the cops busted in, so it was his fault. |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 6:11:22 AM EDT
[#23]
Getting rid of the drug war is the first step. You almost never hear about any such incident except for a drug raid. |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 6:14:00 AM EDT
[#24]
I don't care what any cop here says: I know for a FACT that raids are considered to be fun, exciting, etc, etc. I work with 100 cops. Some are on the local drug unit. Part of the allure of being in that drug unit is the whole dynamic entry perk. And I must admit, it DOES sound like fun. But I'd bet it isn't a whole hell of a lot of fun for the occasional mistaken, innocent party. And I'm surprize more innocent cops AND people aren't shot and killed as a result of these things. No doubt, the fact that so many people are unarmed these days helps prevent shootings. [sarcasm]Hey there... I've just proved that'd we'd ALL be safer if we were unarmed. Then the cops could kick our doors in at 2AM with no worries about gettin' shot! [/sarcasm]
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Posted: 8/26/2005 6:14:06 AM EDT
[#25]
Prolly what got 'em in trouble in the first place! 
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Posted: 8/26/2005 6:16:37 AM EDT
[#26]
LMMFAO 
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Posted: 8/26/2005 6:34:11 AM EDT
[#27]
Well this one is classic I just spewed screen laughing. They even got the wrong street!
 Now how many people are they adding to read an address again? Somebody needs DUMBASS tattoed on their forehead.  Ever notice when these go wrong that if the original warrant was for some dangerous felon it's plastered all over the news story and if it isn't there's not even a mention of why? I find it amasing that on the chance one innocent person gets the death penalty the governor of IL commuted everyone on death rows sentence and the whole US applauded him yet we allow these Wacko Waco tactics day in and day out with not a second thought to the innocents who pay the price. Who can forget the unarmed Sunday school teacher shot dead with no more than whoops wrong house. This practice has seen it's day and time to retire it. If those responsible aren't competent enough to first make sure the warrant is worth a "No Knock" and second get the right address, they have no business having the tool at all. I could give hoot and shit if drughead has three minutes to flush his stash for it wasn't worth my tax dollars anyway. As for real honest to goodness badguys, you abuse you lose it. Tj |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 9:36:06 AM EDT
[#28]
You split hairs and act as if getting an address wrong is worse than acting on old or bad information. I see them as being the same, only in this case the team itself was negligent and in the other the officer who went before a judge affirming that bad information was good was negligent. The act of raiding a retired ministers apartment becaue some informant said he sold drugs, when it clearly is not true, is just as negligent as this incident. In both cases someone fucked up and caused an inncocent familys home to be violated. Acting on faulty information and failing to verify it before acting is every bit as negligent as failing to verify your are on the right street or the right town. The end result is still the wrong home being busted. |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 10:21:22 AM EDT
[#29]
Worse Tom.. They got the wrong friggin TOWN. I'll be the first to admit though that it'd be hard to tell the difference between East Orange and Newark. The whole area is essentially one big seething shithole. |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 10:23:38 AM EDT
[#30]
Please see me tag....I guess you're serious because I haven't seen a correction or anything like that. I think you might be on the wrong board...try PETA.com or Millionmorons.com, etc. |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 10:40:50 AM EDT
[#31]
Not completly accurate, East Orange is only a slow simmering shithole but you'r spot on for most of Newark. |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 10:52:36 AM EDT
[#32]
It's always hard to tell if you're in Newark or JC or East Orange or the seventh circle of hell, where the evil concrete magnates go to roast. |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 10:56:48 AM EDT
[#33]
WS The only time I go to Newark is for some good Spanish food in the Ironbound section. Even then I don't like the drive but the resturants are woth it. Rich V |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 11:04:45 AM EDT
[#34]
I fly in and out of Newark a lot. Oh yea, great Spanish and Portugease resturants but the wrong exit you will wish to hell you had CCW in NJ.
Tj |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 11:42:16 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
I invite you to join me in my "pro-eminent domain" campaign to convince the good citizenry that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Eminent Domain for All .com COC Rule#2-NO LINKS TO PORN!!!!!!!! |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 12:31:18 PM EDT
[#36]
TJ Next time you are in town let me know I would be happy to go for some food in the 'better' part of Newark with you. Rich V |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 12:33:16 PM EDT
[#37]
More people aren't shot because dispite what we thump our chests and crow about, most of us will not react in time to deal with a well exectuted DE. If I'm on my couch and the door flys open with armed people pouring in, guns at the ready.... I lost before it started. Should they bungle it and make me aware that they are beating my door down, I may get one as he enters and I'll be dead. But that rarely happens and it's even more rare that people are armed to the teeth waiting for an assault by police. Kinda undercuts the whole premise of the raid tactic doesn't it. Cases happen where cops are shot at yes. Drugs are high risk entry... yes. However the need for these tactics to deal with local gang lords with loads of cash and weapons stem directly from the prohibition. Oddly it is the law itself that creates such a profitable bussiness stacked with ruthless assholes who will kill to keep it. I support the use of these when the danger is able to be demonstrated and the warrent is executed on the right house, I do. Starting to make it a routine operation doesn't sit well with me though. Hitting the wrong house is inexcusable in my book. At least the NJSP is planning to fix what they broke, so a small nod to them for owning up. Some depts have told people to kiss off after tearing their home to shreds. |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 1:23:54 PM EDT
[#38]
One is gross negligence, the other is acting in good faith. |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 1:30:17 PM EDT
[#39]
Just more proof that the solution is a dynamic entry with a full SWAT team when serving an eviction notice. |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 1:36:08 PM EDT
[#40]
Both are unacceptable and preventable. |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 1:37:15 PM EDT
[#41]
What they will say is "this is one of those sad situations where both the homeowner and the police officers involved were acting in fear of their lives. The officers were confronted with what they thought was an armed suspect during a high risk raid who failed twice to obey a lawful order to drop his weapon"...(dropthegundropthefuckinggunnow blam blam blam)... |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 1:39:10 PM EDT
[#42]
Don't do anything illegal and you don't have to fear the men with badges.
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Posted: 8/26/2005 2:14:50 PM EDT
[#43]
Really? How do you prevent the BG from moving out of his parents house the night before the ewarrant service, or selling the last of his weekend supply an hour before the warrant. Many here would call that the "wrong address" becuase the BG wasnt there or the drugs were not found. You know what would prevent alot of thesde news stories that are misrepresented as "wrong house" raids? Parents not kletting their felon children list mom and dads house as their home address on everything from their car registration to prebooking forms. Friends not letting their fugative buddies crash on their couch wwhenever they are on the run. Hitting an address other than the one listed on the warrant is inexcusable. But sometimes investigators will get bad or dated intel that gets signed off by the judge and the person or item searched for might not be there. It doesnt make it the "wrong address." People that comp,lain about that usually have aot of misconceptions about how warrants are written issued, and wrongly believe that a warrant can be issued based on anonymous tips (they cannot), or verbal testimony of a confidential informant alone (again they cannot). If anyone is interested I'll post a sumary of how a warrant is obtained in my agency. |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 2:26:43 PM EDT
[#44]
It's called surveillance. If they are that deserving, ie deserving of grown men dressing up like the SAS and pointing SMGs at people, then they are deserving of a tail. If your undercover buys crack from the guy on Tuesday and you don't bother to execute a no-knock until days later then IMO you're being negligent. The world is a dynamic place, people move; you have to keep up with that. If you're going to use military tactics and techniques then you must use military intel techniques and procedures as well. In fact, it's more critical for the police because the citizenry is not your enemy. You are not in enemy territory. You are in the US of A. Everyone has rights; even the suspect.
So you're going to execute a dynamic entry based on the information voluntarily provided by a criminal? You don't think that's nuts?
Again with the timely intel.
It means your intel procedures aren't worth a shit. Again if they are deserving of a DE then they are deserving of dedicated intel assets.
Actually, I know exactly how warrants are issued. The judge relies on the police to give him accurate information. If the police do a shitty job of getting intel, or putting down the wrong address on the request, then the judge will necessarily issue a shitty warrant. |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 2:35:40 PM EDT
[#45]
That's true. As long as the officers get home safely, it doesn't matter if the citizens are traumatized with illegal entry into their homes. Fuck 'em. They're probably just criminals or illegals anyway because they live in a poor neighborhood. I don't keep a loaded pistol at my bedside either. The hispanic gangs here wear armor during home invasions too. I keep a legally built SAR semiauto with night sights nearby. I wish I had enough money to build a kill box with boiling pitch and the works in the entrance of my home, but even if I did the wife wouldn'd let me. |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 2:47:03 PM EDT
[#46]
Please do and can you comment on how your procedure varies from other states. Rich V |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 2:52:40 PM EDT
[#47]
Why is it the entry teams fault? I would agree with firing the supervisor or whoever gave them directions/wrong address. |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 2:53:17 PM EDT
[#48]
Good post. You reiterate the argument I often have with fellow ARFCOMER's who say "Why do you need a RIFLE for your home defense...?" Only sheeple will never fathom how many real criminals there are - or that they often have body armor.......morons automatically assume I want AP ammo to shoot good guys - which is a lame argument at best. |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 2:55:59 PM EDT
[#49]
What type of corporation do you think they form, and in what database do they show up? |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 2:57:03 PM EDT
[#50]
It's called surveillance. If they are that deserving, ie deserving of grown men dressing up like the SAS and pointing SMGs at people, then they are deserving of a tail. If your undercover buys crack from the guy on Tuesday and you don't bother to execute a no-knock until days later then IMO you're being negligent. We do not write warrant based on undercover officers buys. In fact there is no such thing as a undercover officer in mnay southern california agencies. We write warrants based on controlled buys, usually three withen 10 days, then the warrant service is done withen 20 days of the last buy. This is to protect the identify of the informants. You want the dealer to sell to so many people in that 10 to 20 days that its impossible to guesss which three buys were the informants. |
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