Quoted: Gentlemen Please do not start personal attacks, I don’t want this thread locked. If you must criticize each other TAKE IT TO THE PIT Please Rich V

I didnt attack him... I made no personal insults

Quoted: that's because your idea of solving the palestinian problem probably involves a good ethnic cleansing.

And you expect to be taken seriously???

Quoted: that's because your idea of solving the palestinian problem probably involves a good ethnic cleansing. Um, where did he say that? Wow dude you have serious issues.

note I said probably... he said he doesnt believe the palestinians should have their own state, so he is obviously on the extreme right.... just making a pretty safe assumption.

Quoted: LOL... yea... I guess bs doesnt flow in the opposite direction too right. Remember, history is written by the winners in war.

Perhaps in the peloponesian war....

Trouble is that we still have the people who LIVED it alive today, and we have excellent documentation to demonstrate what the truth is.

And it aint the stuff you are talking about.

Quoted: Quoted: that's because your idea of solving the palestinian problem probably involves a good ethnic cleansing. And you expect to be taken seriously???

Just as seriously as you....

Quoted: note I said probably... he said he doesnt believe the palestinians should have their own state, so he is obviously a on the extreme right.... just making a pretty safe assumption.

And you accuse others of strawman arguments?  The above is a textbook case of such an argument.  Don't draw dumb fuck conclusions if you want to be taken seriously.  

Quoted: Quoted: Gentlemen Please do not start personal attacks, I don’t want this thread locked. If you must criticize each other TAKE IT TO THE PIT Please Rich V I didnt attack him... I made no personal insults

I did not say anyone did, but it is getting heated and want to throw on some cold water before the damage is done.
Thanks
Rich V

Quoted: Quoted: LOL... yea... I guess bs doesnt flow in the opposite direction too right. Remember, history is written by the winners in war. Perhaps in the peloponesian war.... Trouble is that we still have the people who LIVED it alive today, and we have excellent documentation to demonstrate what the truth is. And it aint the stuff you are talking about.

Yes... but in todays world... it is about who can disseminate their propaganda more efficiently. The truth eventually becomes what the more effective propagandists want it to be. Or havent you learned that yet.

Quoted: Just as seriously as you....

I doubt you will.

You are the one alleging that people have genocide on the brain because they disagree with you.

That, sir, is grounds to dismiss you entirely.

Quoted: Yes... but in todays world... it is about who can disseminate their propaganda more efficiently. The truth eventually becomes what the more effective propagandists want it to be. Or havent you learned that yet.

I think you are adequate proof of how effective propoganda can be. You seem to have swallowed a LOT of it.

Quoted: Quoted: note I said probably... he said he doesnt believe the palestinians should have their own state, so he is obviously a on the extreme right.... just making a pretty safe assumption. And you accuse others of strawman arguments?  The above is a textbook case of such an argument.  Don't draw dumb fuck conclusions if you want to be taken seriously.

he accused me of something and I didnt take too kindly to it. I should not have responded in kind. I'll try to keep it clean for you Francis.

Quoted: Does anyone have a link to what STRATFOR has to say about this?

they don't like sharing info dude.....  I pay them LOTSA money for good info and analysis and they are very strident on info sharing.

Quoted: Quoted: Yes... but in todays world... it is about who can disseminate their propaganda more efficiently. The truth eventually becomes what the more effective propagandists want it to be. Or havent you learned that yet. I think you are adequate proof of how effective propoganda can be. You seem to have swallowed a LOT of it.

Yes... that 4 year degree spoon fed me nothing bs propaganda. My brain was thoroughly scrubbed.

Quoted: Yes... that 4 year degree spoon fed me nothing bs propaganda. My brain was thoroughly scrubbed.

A 4 year degree is a nice thing to have.

Unfortunately for you, you are speaking to a man who works at one of the institutions of higher learning, and thus has great insight into exactly what is taught in them.

And, yes, certain departments and professors do nothing but push BS.

Now whether this was foisted upon you or you ate it willingly, I do not know. I do know that even a degree in history does not ammount to someone knowing what actually happened.

ETA -- After all, it is a lot of college educated people calling our soldiers war criminals and taking the side of the terrorists in this nation.

Quoted: Quoted: Yes... that 4 year degree spoon fed me nothing bs propaganda. My brain was thoroughly scrubbed. A 4 year degree is a nice thing to have. Unfortunately for you, you are speaking to a man who works at one of the institutions of higher learning, and thus has great insight into exactly what is taught in them. And, yes, certain departments and professors do nothing but push BS. Now whether this was foisted upon you or you ate it willingly, I do not know. I do know that even a degree in history does not ammount to someone knowing what actually happened.

Good thing I got it in political science instead then

Quoted: Good thing I got it in political science instead then

That's even WORSE. Most of our PS faculty are decent people, but a few are just flaming commie jackasses enamored with themselves to the point of almost ascending into heaven in their view. I well recall one PS professor who spent 2 whole class sessions attacking Christianity and me for being a Christian.

He went so far as to eject me from class.

The dean made him eat some humble pie, but he did so only at the risk of his job. Not because he saw the error of his ways.

Quoted: Quoted: Good thing I got it in political science instead then That's even WORSE.

haha... when you say work at an institution of higher learning... would that be in the custodial dept.?

but here's a free chapperjoe forecasting analysis:


disclaimer:

I have NO OPINION on the pullout so don't ask just cause I'm jewish. I feel nothing. I look at this from a security standpoint.

disclaimer over:

The old method of planting settlements (no matter how built up) AMONG the enemy is impossible to maintain in an age of instant communications (so it's not like we are breaking their lines of communication) and media coverage (so it's not like we can pretend its not a huge prison, which it is). A border is much easier defended. period. That's what i see as a security standpoint....

Now the reason behind it is simpler than people think. The ideologues thinkn that Sharon is gonna pull out then some dumb Gazan will attack Israel, then Sharon will go and say Gaza has attacked Israel and he will go in in force and kill em all. Not gonna happen. If the PA is responsible for Gaza to the that extent, then the PA is also entitled to a multi-mile territorial extension of border, especialy at sea, which Israel will never allow.

The real reason is the classic game of pre-emption. I got news for you, most secular voting Israelis don't give a shit about gaza. Sharon lost very little here, Bibi was gonna run sooner or later (even though he was GREAT in finance, where the real problems of the country are) and Sharon wasn't counting on the hard right vote anyway after numerous 'cease-fires' and halting the PUBLIC targetted killings. What Israelis, and Sharon and Bibi and Bibi's suporters DO care about is Judea and Samaria. There are settlements there as big, developed and populated as any suburb in america and Israel will never leave those. He needs to redefine the green line to include ALL those towns and cities and that is gonna require alot of international political capital. That's why there are so many pictures coming out of Gaza now. He needs to show the world how 'painful' it is to do this so that he can magnify this relatively tiny act into a HUGE bargaining chip for later. Media blackouts are easy in Israel. the proliferation of heartwrenching pics are being allowed for a reason.

Furthermore, any attacks coming from Gaza now will also be used as chips to say 'we will not pull out of Judea and Samaria, where teh border will be inches away from huge settled Jewish cities and towns, because look what happened when we pulled out of Gaza miles away from any Jews!'... Nobody expects Gaza to erupt into anything but chaos and insanity as the arabs turn on themselves. Gazans are celebratig what, that Jews are pulling out of 10 3-acre settlements and two mediam sized villages? No Arabs lived in netzarim or eve dekalim, were kicked out and are now returning. They are celebrating cause now the Israelis can't keep Hamas in line enough for fatah to maintain control. Fatah is doomed and expect a massive first strike from Dahlan against Hamas (with MUCH of our suport by the way.. the CIA loves him - I personally think he's the only hope the PA has).

In terms of the true motive, in the end it's all just a huge PR stunt in preperation for the real issue, the west bank. Everyone blames the Israeli's for being way behind the Arabs in terms of PR, but they are thinking miles ahead, not just footsteps. Sharon gets to a) be perceived as taking a 'hit' for peace b) watch Gaza descend into chaos and c) secure the massive center of Israeli voters d) ensure that any Judea Samaria pullout will be on his terms.

That's all. :-)

Right on the mark.  This theory that the Palestinians are incapable of living with their neighbors, Jew OR Arab is absolutely correct.  The tribalism and ancient grudges prevent any sort of civilized society in Palestine...or for that matter throughout the Middle East.

There is lots of empirical data out there to back this up...all one has to do is look around a bit.

Good for the Israelis.  Now we'll see how the rest of the Middle Eastern dictators and potentates react.    My guess is that they'll want NOTHING to do with the Palestinians.

Quoted: Quoted: They did, migrate back, for centuries.  And were periodically attacked by their neighbors. Islamist terror didn't start in 1948. Go to these sites....they'll give you a lot more information. Jewish Virtual Library Masada 2000 Some how I dont think I will get totally impartial info from those sites. LOL I think I will try this book instead.

You'll get the truth from those sites.  Something the Islamists will never tell you.

Quoted: haha... when you say work at an institution of higher learning... would that be in the custodial dept.?

Of course.

Anyone who disagrees with you and explains that the shine on your 4 year degree may not be all you imagine it to be is certainly an unlearned and ignorant person whose only association with learning must be to clean the filth left by the truly intelligent upon the planet.....

Your hubris is ASTOUNDING.

Quoted: Quoted: haha... when you say work at an institution of higher learning... would that be in the custodial dept.? Of course. Anyone who disagrees with you and explains that the shine on your 4 year degree may not be all you imagine it to be is certainly an unlearned and ignorant person whose only association with learning must be to clean the filth left by the truly intelligent upon the planet..... Your hubris is ASTOUNDING.

I thought it was a decent jab... maybe your sense of humor isn't what I had hoped it would be.

Quoted: Quoted: haha... when you say work at an institution of higher learning... would that be in the custodial dept.? Of course. Anyone who disagrees with you and explains that the shine on your 4 year degree may not be all you imagine it to be is certainly an unlearned and ignorant person whose only association with learning must be to clean the filth left by the truly intelligent upon the planet..... Your hubris is ASTOUNDING.

BTW, to make up for the lack of shine on my 4 year degree... I added to it with a JD/MBA.

oh- btw i didnt appreciate the ethnic cleansing jab.  now i gotta go to the old city to worship in a place were pre-67 we were not allowed (by the jordanians, not the palestinians).

Quoted: but here's a free chapperjoe forecasting analysis: disclaimer: I have NO OPINION on the pullout so don't ask just cause I'm jewish. I feel nothing. I look at this from a security standpoint. disclaimer over: The old method of planting settlements (no matter how built up) AMONG the enemy is impossible to maintain in an age of instant communications (so it's not like we are breaking their lines of communication) and media coverage (so it's not like we can pretend its not a huge prison, which it is). A border is much easier defended. period. That's what i see as a security standpoint.... Now the reason behind it is simpler than people think. The ideologues thinkn that Sharon is gonna pull out then some dumb Gazan will attack Israel, then Sharon will go and say Gaza has attacked Israel and he will go in in force and kill em all. Not gonna happen. If the PA is responsible for Gaza to the that extent, then the PA is also entitled to a multi-mile territorial extension of border, especialy at sea, which Israel will never allow. The real reason is the classic game of pre-emption. I got news for you, most secular voting Israelis don't give a shit about gaza. Sharon lost very little here, Bibi was gonna run sooner or later (even though he was GREAT in finance, where the real problems of the country are) and Sharon wasn't counting on the hard right vote anyway after numerous 'cease-fires' and halting the PUBLIC targetted killings. What Israelis, and Sharon and Bibi and Bibi's suporters DO care about is Judea and Samaria. There are settlements there as big, developed and populated as any suburb in america and Israel will never leave those. He needs to redefine the green line to include ALL those towns and cities and that is gonna require alot of international political capital. That's why there are so many pictures coming out of Gaza now. He needs to show the world how 'painful' it is to do this so that he can magnify this relatively tiny act into a HUGE bargaining chip for later. Media blackouts are easy in Israel. the proliferation of heartwrenching pics are being allowed for a reason. Furthermore, any attacks coming from Gaza now will also be used as chips to say 'we will not pull out of Judea and Samaria, where teh border will be inches away from huge settled Jewish cities and towns, because look what happened when we pulled out of Gaza miles away from any Jews!'... Nobody expects Gaza to erupt into anything but chaos and insanity as the arabs turn on themselves. Gazans are celebratig what, that Jews are pulling out of 10 3-acre settlements and two mediam sized villages? No Arabs lived in netzarim or eve dekalim, were kicked out and are now returning. They are celebrating cause now the Israelis can't keep Hamas in line enough for fatah to maintain control. Fatah is doomed and expect a massive first strike from Dahlan against Hamas (with MUCH of our suport by the way.. the CIA loves him - I personally think he's the only hope the PA has). In terms of the true motive, in the end it's all just a huge PR stunt in preperation for the real issue, the west bank. Everyone blames the Israeli's for being way behind the Arabs in terms of PR, but they are thinking miles ahead, not just footsteps. Sharon gets to a) be perceived as taking a 'hit' for peace b) watch Gaza descend into chaos and c) secure the massive center of Israeli voters d) ensure that any Judea Samaria pullout will be on his terms. That's all. :-)

Chapperjoe

Interesting insight on some aspects I was not aware of.
Thanks for contributing your thoughts.
Rich V

Quoted: oh- btw i didnt appreciate the ethnic cleansing jab.  now i gotta go to the old city to worship in a place were pre-67 we were not allowed (by the jordanians, not the palestinians).

Ok.... have fun at prayer

hopefully my jab didnt do permanent harm.

Good read.  I like it.

So Glockguy what is your take on the Nazi-Palestinian connection, both during and after WW2?

Quoted: Quoted: oh- btw i didnt appreciate the ethnic cleansing jab.  now i gotta go to the old city to worship in a place were pre-67 we were not allowed (by the jordanians, not the palestinians). Ok.... have fun at prayer hopefully my jab didnt due permanent harm.

So you have a masters and can't figure out the proper use of the word "due"??

Ya.

Quoted: So Glockguy what is your take on the Nazi-Palestinian connection, both during and after WW2?

Shh!!

It is all propoganda written by the victors, don't you know!!

Clearly in his general history class he learned all he needed to know!

Quoted: So Glockguy what is your take on the Nazi-Palestinian connection, both during and after WW2?

Not sure. I havent researched that aspect of palestinian history.

I would think it would fall along the lines of the enemy of my enemy is my friend of something to that affect??? I really do not have an answer for you. It's just pure speculation. And... I thought that the so called "palestinians" did not exist until 1964 according to what other peope here had said. How could have palestinians have engaged in anything before WWII if they didnt officially exist until 1964???

Explain please.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: oh- btw i didnt appreciate the ethnic cleansing jab.  now i gotta go to the old city to worship in a place were pre-67 we were not allowed (by the jordanians, not the palestinians). Ok.... have fun at prayer hopefully my jab didnt due permanent harm. So you have a masters and can't figure out the proper use of the word "due"?? Ya.

No... i can... its just from lack of sleep.

Very tired at the moment.

And since when did a typo equate to lacking intelligence??? You never make typos I suppose.

That theory is about the best one I have heard.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: cuz the neighbor evicted the previous tenent without cause other than they wanted their apartment for themselves. That isn't what happened, you might want to do a little reading on the 1967 war. so you saying none of the people seeking the right of return was actually evicted from their homes by the zionist who made the state of israel???? Ah, getting warmer.

After reading the rest of his comments I think he's red hot.

Quoted: That theory is about the best one I have heard.

I don't know what to think. I certainly hope that behind Sharon's actions is a plan nobody knows about, and I hope like heck it works.

But international pressure is a funny thing, and has a way of making even sane and reasonable men go completely bonkers.

Quoted: Quoted: That theory is about the best one I have heard. I don't know what to think. I certainly hope that behind Sharon's actions is a plan nobody knows about, and I hope like heck it works. But international pressure is a funny thing, and has a way of making even sane and reasonable men go completely bonkers.

To me it's the only thing that makes sense. Give them this little strip of land, enough for their terrorist state and the attacks will continue. Just proves Israel as being right all along.

It's actually kind of brillant.

I hope both sides get an equitible settlement and can move on with their lives.

Quoted: Quoted: So Glockguy what is your take on the Nazi-Palestinian connection, both during and after WW2? Not sure. I havent researched that aspect of palestinian history. I would think it would fall along the lines of the enemy of my enemy is my friend of something to that affect??? I really do not have an answer for you. It's just pure speculation. And... I thought that the so called "palestinians" did not exist until 1964 according to what other peope here had said. How could have palestinians have engaged in anything before WWII if they didnt officially exist until 1964??? Explain please.

TheWind mispoke, about the Nazi-"Palestinian" connection, he should have said Nazi-Arab connection and I know he knows that.

What he's talking about is the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin el-Husseini. He spent a good part of the war in Berlin and was a good friend of Hitler.  At one time he recruited a Muslim SS Division for Hitler.  His nephew was none other than...you guessed it....Yasser Arafat.

The Arab world is still VERY enamored with Hitler and "Mein Kampf" is a best seller in many Arab countries...and especially among Arabs in Gaza.  You'll frequently see the swastika used in Islamist terror symbols.

Here he is meeting with Hitler.


Read more about him here. Grand Mufti, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini

Quoted: I hope both sides get an equitible settlement and can move on with their lives.

Hope springs eternal. Dream on.

Dig in the sand, you find Jewish artifacts, not "Palestinian." Unless you count twenty year old empty soup cans. Yasser Arafat created the idea of a "Palestinian" people/nation when he created the PLO in 1964. None existed previous to that.

And here's news for everyone.

THERE ALREADY IS A "PALESTINIAN" STATE.

IT'S CALLED JORDAN.

Quoted: That theory is about the best one I have heard.

My thought when I first read the story was what a great way to take the heat off of the Israeli government as an ‘unbending occupying force’ and throw it in the lap of its detractors, kind of a “you don’t like our approach let’s see if you can do any better”.
Now the international community is in the hot seat when the Gaza strip implodes on its self. I can only imagine the dilemma the Egyptians now face when they have to do the job the Israelis were ridiculed for. Almost poetic justice.

Rich V

Quoted: Quoted: I hope both sides get an equitible settlement and can move on with their lives. Hope springs eternal. Dream on. Dig in the sand, you find Jewish artifacts, not "Palestinian." Unless you count twenty year old empty soup cans. Yasser Arafat created the idea of a "Palestinian" people/nation when he created the PLO in 1964. None existed previous to that. And here's news for everyone. THERE ALREADY IS A "PALESTINIAN" STATE. IT'S CALLED JORDAN.

Here's news for you. Not according to Bush... the rest of the US govt. The other parties to the road map... the israeli govt itself.... or the entire UN.

Sharon himself has re-tracked his previous statements to this affect. He now fully endorses the road map which calls for the creation of a palestinian state, separate and distinct from Jordan.

Nope the Palestinians started out with help from former members of the Nazi's....they fought the Allies not the Jews in WW2 then as the so called Palesitian People were created...the players stayed the same, jus the team was renamed.

Quoted: To me it's the only thing that makes sense. Give them this little strip of land, enough for their terrorist state and the attacks will continue. Just proves Israel as being right all along. It's actually kind of brillant.

The snag is that if he is doing this to prove something to international opinion, it won't work. International opinion (like the UN) is terminally stupid and won't side with Israel no matter what. They are boot lickers by nature, and will always side with the bad guys.

Quoted: Quoted: That theory is about the best one I have heard. My thought when I first read the story was what a great way to take the heat off of the Israeli government as an ‘unbending occupying force’ and throw it in the lap of its detractors, kind of a “you don’t like our approach let’s see if you can do any better”. Now the international community is in the hot seat when the Gaza strip implodes on its self. I can only imagine the dilemma the Egyptians now face when they have to do the job the Israelis were ridiculed for. Almost poetic justice. Rich V

Why does everyone want to see the Palis fail??? If they do what they are supposed to do in Gaza, it could lead to actual peace. You're more concerned with Israel scoring points in its PR game than you are in seeing actual progress toward peace.

Muhammed Amin al-Husseini

So any thoughts of his family relationships....just a bunch of good ole boys in the middleeast,

Haj Amin al-Husseini eventually died in exile in 1974. He never returned to Jerusalem after his 1937 departure. His place as leader of the radical, nationalist Palestinian Arabs was taken by his nephew Mohammed Abdel-Raouf Arafat As Qudwa al-Hussaeini, better known as Yasser Arafat. In August 2002, Arafat gave an interview in which he referred to "our hero al-Husseini" as a symbol of Palestinian Arab resistance.

So do you think he was influenced by his uncle and friends?  They waged war and lost, oh well to the victor go the spoils.

Quoted: Muhammed Amin al-Husseini So any thoughts of his family relationships....just a bunch of good ole boys in the middleeast, Haj Amin al-Husseini eventually died in exile in 1974. He never returned to Jerusalem after his 1937 departure. His place as leader of the radical, nationalist Palestinian Arabs was taken by his nephew Mohammed Abdel-Raouf Arafat As Qudwa al-Hussaeini, better known as Yasser Arafat. In August 2002, Arafat gave an interview in which he referred to "our hero al-Husseini" as a symbol of Palestinian Arab resistance. So do you think he was influenced by his uncle and friends?  They waged war and lost, oh well to the victor go the spoils.

Is this addressed to me???

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That theory is about the best one I have heard. My thought when I first read the story was what a great way to take the heat off of the Israeli government as an ‘unbending occupying force’ and throw it in the lap of its detractors, kind of a “you don’t like our approach let’s see if you can do any better”. Now the international community is in the hot seat when the Gaza strip implodes on its self. I can only imagine the dilemma the Egyptians now face when they have to do the job the Israelis were ridiculed for. Almost poetic justice. Rich V Why does everyone want to see the Palis fail??? If they do what they are supposed to do in Gaza, it could lead to actual peace. You're more concerned with Israel scoring points in its PR game than you are in seeing actual progress toward peace.

News flash!!!!!!!!!! There will never be peace. Until you get rid of the terrorists and their financing.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That theory is about the best one I have heard. My thought when I first read the story was what a great way to take the heat off of the Israeli government as an ‘unbending occupying force’ and throw it in the lap of its detractors, kind of a “you don’t like our approach let’s see if you can do any better”. Now the international community is in the hot seat when the Gaza strip implodes on its self. I can only imagine the dilemma the Egyptians now face when they have to do the job the Israelis were ridiculed for. Almost poetic justice. Rich V Why does everyone want to see the Palis fail??? If they do what they are supposed to do in Gaza, it could lead to actual peace. You're more concerned with Israel scoring points in its PR game than you in see actual progress toward peace.

Glockguy,

It’s not that I don’t want to see peace in the region I just think the current condition of the Palestinians is beyond hope. There may be substantial numbers of Palestinians that would live in peace with Israel but the hell bent terrorist/extremist groups will never tolerate it. This was the case with Arafat and it has not changed.
As for scoring points I think the Israelis have been singled out by the Arab and international community as being the major bad guy in the middle east. I don’t buy into that thinking so seeing the tables turned and watching them walk in their shoes for a while will be ‘educational’ to these hypocrites.

Rich V

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That theory is about the best one I have heard. My thought when I first read the story was what a great way to take the heat off of the Israeli government as an ‘unbending occupying force’ and throw it in the lap of its detractors, kind of a “you don’t like our approach let’s see if you can do any better”. Now the international community is in the hot seat when the Gaza strip implodes on its self. I can only imagine the dilemma the Egyptians now face when they have to do the job the Israelis were ridiculed for. Almost poetic justice. Rich V Why does everyone want to see the Palis fail??? If they do what they are supposed to do in Gaza, it could lead to actual peace. You're more concerned with Israel scoring points in its PR game than you are in seeing actual progress toward peace. News flash!!!!!!!!!! There will never be peace. Until you get rid of the terrorists and their financing.

And the counter-point to that is that there will never be a stop to the violence until the occupation ends. So I guess we are going to be waiting around for the two sides to make peace forever

I wish they could find a way out of this mess.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That theory is about the best one I have heard. My thought when I first read the story was what a great way to take the heat off of the Israeli government as an ‘unbending occupying force’ and throw it in the lap of its detractors, kind of a “you don’t like our approach let’s see if you can do any better”. Now the international community is in the hot seat when the Gaza strip implodes on its self. I can only imagine the dilemma the Egyptians now face when they have to do the job the Israelis were ridiculed for. Almost poetic justice. Rich V Why does everyone want to see the Palis fail??? If they do what they are supposed to do in Gaza, it could lead to actual peace. You're more concerned with Israel scoring points in its PR game than you are in seeing actual progress toward peace. News flash!!!!!!!!!! There will never be peace. Until you get rid of the terrorists and their financing. And the counter-point to that is that there will never be a stop to the violence until the occupation ends. So I guess we are going to be waiting around for the two sides to make peace forever I wish they could find a way out of this mess.

Why does the tune Daydream Believer come mind after reading the above?

It did not matter before the wars, it will not matter afterwards.