Quoted: I remember being told by a retired Major in the Isreali Military that the orthodox settlers were a nightmare and their insistance in ignoring the reality on the ground ensured Israel never found peace. He was very bitter about them, he was particulary bitter that unlike himself whose family had been born in Israel proper, as had he, the most hardline settlers were ultra-Orthodox Jews moving to Israel from the USA in the recent past and were totally intransigent and unwilling to see sense or reason… Most Israelis including Asaf want peace, but not that lot it seemed to him. ANdy

I understand the Major's position. It's one shared by lots of Israelis. However, the idea that anything less than a "Palestinian" state stretching from the Jordan to the Mediterranean - and another 6 million dead Jews - will bring peace is pure foolishness. Violence against Israel is not a creature of the conquest of the West Bank and Gaza. That conquest is a creature of Arab attacks on Israel. Combined Arab Armies attacked Israel in 1948 (the day it was founded), 1956, 1967, and 1973. Low-level attacks by Arab governments and non-state actors have been constant. The problem isn't anything any Jews do, other than live in Israel. If the Arabs unilaterally disarmed tomorrow, there would be no more war with Israel. If Israel unilaterally disarmed tomorrow, there would be one more war.

I believe that peace will come only with the return of the Messiah. Clear-headed secularists recognize that it is otherwise possible only with the Jews gone or the Arabs humiliated and emasculated.

Quoted: I remember being told by a retired Major in the Israeli Military that the orthodox settlers were a nightmare and their insistance in ignoring the reality on the ground ensured Israel never found peace. He was very bitter about them, he was particulary bitter that unlike himself whose family had been born in Israel proper, as had he, the most hardline settlers were ultra-Orthodox Jews moving to Israel from the USA in the recent past and were totally intransigent and unwilling to see sense or reason… Most Israelis including Asaf want peace, but not that lot it seemed to him. ANdy

I think that is a vrey unfair generalization.  The settlements are split between religious and secular- it is unfair to blame the religious.  That is a very easy excuse that alot of left wing israelis use, but extraordinarly one sided.  Gaza had tons of secular settlers who moved there to be in one of the most beautiful areas in israel.  The beaches there are some of the finest on the mediteranian.  The west bank is also split between religious and secular- i dont think his being an officer in the idf had anything to do with his viewpoint, he probably would have thought the same had he not been in the military.  from my experience the career officers are generaly more sympathetic than the rest of the left, they understand the attachement to the land.  Also- to say that most settlers are americans moving to israel would be totally not true.

giving up and leaving is a huuuuge statement here.  that makes his position very clear.  this country is built on the attachment to the land, and leaving really shows how commited you are not.  i am not saying your friend is a bad guy or anything of the sort, just here when you leave it really is a very strong statement.

my grandmother and great uncles fought the british, then the ayrabs to found the country.  my cousins all fought in 53, 67, 73, 82.  Currently there are 4 of us in the army- all in special forces units.  to me it is a great priviledge to fight in the idf.  i see it right now as one of the defining moments in my life, what made me choose not to go into investment banking (walked away from a job @jp morgan chase) and give my life to service of my country.  

Quoted: my grandmother and great uncles fought the british, then the ayrabs to found the country.  my cousins all fought in 53, 67, 73, 82.  Currently there are 4 of us in the army- all in special forces units.  to me it is a great priviledge to fight in the idf.  i see it right now as one of the defining moments in my life, what made me choose not to go into investment banking (walked away from a job @jp morgan chase) and give my life to service of my country.

Good luck my friend. Your decision shows the character you possess and the history of your family shows theirs. Regardless of what some post here, a vast majority support Israel and their cause. I damn sure do!!

Semper Fi,
ASO544

Quoted: Quoted: giving up and leaving is a huuuuge statement here.  that makes his position very clear.  this country is built on the attachment to the land, and leaving really shows how commited you are not.  i am not saying your friend is a bad guy or anything of the sort, just here when you leave it really is a very strong statement. He grew tired of fighting… His Grandfather fought to found the country, his father fought to save the country, he fought to keep the country, he just did not want his kids to have to fight as well… he knew the picture (he was Military Intelligence) and made a hard choice. Sometimes people get tired of fighting with no end in sight. Andy

When only one side WANTS peace there will always be fighting. Period.

Hopefully they will all return soon. This is a peace offering from the Israeli's, but as we know the terrorism from the Palestinian side will continue, and when it does the Israelis will hopefully, finally, have proof to the world that the Palestinians do not want land, but the death of Israelis.....then hopefully the rest of the world will allow the IDF to take the gloves off and do what is necessary to protect themselves.

Quoted: Quoted: my grandmother and great uncles fought the british, then the ayrabs to found the country.  my cousins all fought in 53, 67, 73, 82.  Currently there are 4 of us in the army- all in special forces units.  to me it is a great priviledge to fight in the idf.  i see it right now as one of the defining moments in my life, what made me choose not to go into investment banking (walked away from a job @jp morgan chase) and give my life to service of my country.   Good luck my friend. Your decision shows the character you possess and the history of your family shows theirs. Regardless of what some post here, a vast majority support Israel and their cause. I damn sure do!! Semper Fi, ASO544

+1

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I guess Sharone kicking out the settlers and betraying the jewish people, is kinda like Bush flooding the USA with illegals and betraying the American people. Um, or not. History will not look kindly on this. On what?  Not sure what ur trying to say. Which part, the "Um, or not" or the History part? Well anyways, I'll explain both. 1) Your comparison is retarded.  For your theory to be truer, Bush would have to order the army to evacuate you off your land and then give the illegals your land, house, and fields. 2) Kicking the Jews off the land they have died to protect, developed, and RIGHTFULLY own is very wrong.  Ordering the army to take up arms against their own people is even more wrong. You start a war, get your ass kicked and lose your land thats just too bad.  No Mulligans, do overs, double tags, or halfsys!  Take your camels and get the fuck out. Easy there, you seem to got too much huztpah today.

It's just aggravating to see people taking the sides of terrorists.  It sets a horrible presedence, terrorism works!

Israel should give the Pals a choice:  Either stop your attacks RIGHT THE FUCK NOW, or we will take Gaza back once and for all and you will all be living in the Egyptian desert.


ETA:  I know this is an impossibility, but I can dream can't I?

"Peace will come when the Arabs love their children more than they hate us."-Golda Meir

Quoted: Quoted: They get compensation, they are rehoused in temporary accommodation by the Government who is footing the tab for removing them. An average family can expect to receive about $250,000 (£140,000) compensation, depending on house size, the number of children and length of residence in the occupied territories. FAMILY COMPENSATION PACKAGE $1,000 per square metre of home $50,000 for land around home $1,000 per head for each year of residence (children included) Moving costs up to $5,000 Half a year's salary if made redundant Two years' rent following relocation $30,000 loan for staying in new home On top of that there are removals expenses, two years' free rent, redundancy compensation and what Mr Altman calls a "bonus" of $30,000 if the family stays put in a community being established to house them. Farmers will receive an extra amount for leaving the land they have worked, that under a complex calculation could increase the sum to $400,000. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4151742.stm All done with US taxpayer money..

You have ANY proofs at all, or you just spewing the pro-forma US-Israel -bashing line?

Quoted: Let both sides twirl in the wind. THAT IS FAIR AND EQUITABLE. Last man standing takes all. We can send the winner a congratulations card and a fruit basket. That is the extent to which America should give a rats rear end. What a joke On all America that is! Dram out

Fuck that bullshit. Death to the Pali Dogs.

Quoted: Quoted: This is what we are seeing here, who cares about the compensation or whose land it was once...  there are people being taken from their homes by the national defense forces.  if you bother to search through the photos you will see even generals crying with the settlers.  i dont really know what to say about it, except that it hurts to see friends of yours get a one month leave so that they can go pack up their house. news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050815/481/jrl17108151509 news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050815/photos_ts/mdf27817 news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050815/photos_wl_me_afp/050815180228_s78vrj5m_photo0 news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050815/ids_photos_wl/r1386262948.jpg news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050815/ids_photos_wl/r4264635836.jpg I remember being told by a retired Major in the Israeli Military that the orthodox settlers were a nightmare and their insistance in ignoring the reality on the ground ensured Israel never found peace. He was very bitter about them, he was particulary bitter that unlike himself whose family had been born in Israel proper, as had he, the most hardline settlers were ultra-Orthodox Jews moving to Israel from the USA in the recent past and were totally intransigent and unwilling to see sense or reason… Most Israelis including Asaf want peace, but not that lot it seemed to him. ANdy

Not only that, but most of them refuse to serve in the very IDF that keeps 1.5 million murderous Pali dogs from killing them. 8000 Settlers cannot be allowed to anchor Israel's national policy in a bloody stalemate.

Quoted: Not only that, but most of them refuse to serve in the very IDF that keeps 1.5 million murderous Pali dogs from killing them. 8000 Settlers cannot be allowed to anchor Israel's national policy in a bloody stalemate.

From what I've heard,  the "controversial" (and widely condemned) avoidance of military service doesn't occur among settlers specifically, but among orthodox Torah students. The religious establishment long ago persuaded the government that Torah study was an essential occupation, and got the students exempted from service.

More to the point, until the Second Coming, Israel's national policy will be anchored  in a bloody stalemate with the genocidal Muslim savages who surround it, settlers or no.