Quoted: Well the reason they couldn't return fire was because probably because the snipers were probably doing their sniper thing (hiding, prone position or whatever) and had their cheesy uber sexy match grade bolt-guns. So when they were ambushed, they couldn't get out their normal rifles (if they had them) or at the very least a sidearm or even a 10MOA AK.

Don't know much about sniper teams do you?

The "spotter" almost always has some form of semi/full auto weapon for exactly this reason.

Quoted: Quoted: Well the reason they couldn't return fire was because probably because the snipers were probably doing their sniper thing (hiding, prone position or whatever) and had their cheesy uber sexy match grade bolt-guns. So when they were ambushed, they couldn't get out their normal rifles (if they had them) or at the very least a sidearm or even a 10MOA AK. It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.

Wow!  Same advice my father gave me years ago.

the teams had 2 saws with them and several m4/203's and still didnt have a chance. they were ambushed. there is a video of the ambush on ogrish.com.  they show the equipment they took off the mairnes. very sad. it even shows what looks like an iraqi police truck inthe area at the same time.

Quoted: Well the reason they couldn't return fire was because probably because the snipers were probably doing their sniper thing (hiding, prone position or whatever) and had their cheesy uber sexy match grade bolt-guns. So when they were ambushed, they couldn't get out their normal rifles (if they had them) or at the very least a sidearm or even a 10MOA AK.

Get lost you idiot!  

Damn...

Semper Fi.

Quoted: Quoted: Something is up with this deal. Smells to much like a betrayal. It certainly does!

+1

Quoted: Well the reason they couldn't return fire was because probably because the snipers were probably doing their sniper thing (hiding, prone position or whatever) and had their cheesy uber sexy match grade bolt-guns. So when they were ambushed, they couldn't get out their normal rifles (if they had them) or at the very least a sidearm or even a 10MOA AK.

Your post exudes a level of ignorance I have not seen in quite a while. You obviously know absolutely nothing of USMC tactics as it pertains to their snipers.....

There ain't no fucking way an insurgent just stumples upon a 6 man team AND manages to kill them all before ANYONE can return fire.  No fucking way.


My speculation...insurgent dressed like (or was) Iraqi Army, got up with them somehow and executed thim with a big burst.  Even dumping a whole mag into them they didn't have a chance to return fire?  Body armor would have saved SOMEONE you'd think.  NO FUCKING WAY.

Quoted: There ain't no fucking way an insurgent just stumples upon a 6 man team AND manages to kill them all before ANYONE can return fire.  No fucking way. My speculation...insurgent dressed like (or was) Iraqi Army, got up with them somehow and executed thim with a big burst.  Even dumping a whole mag into them they didn't have a chance to return fire?  Body armor would have saved SOMEONE you'd think.  NO FUCKING WAY.

It sure looks that way, some form of betrayal, etc.  We'll know soon enough, and God help those responsible.

Quoted: the teams had 2 saws with them and several m4/203's and still didnt have a chance. they were ambushed. there is a video of the ambush on ogrish.com.  they show the equipment they took off the mairnes. very sad. it even shows what looks like an iraqi police truck inthe area at the same time.

M--f--krs

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't know what GWB is waiting for to finally set our boys loose on the enemy. He's in his last term I hate to say it, but don't hold your breath.  Since the days following 9/11, GWB's courage has been on the decline.  I doubt he'll take stronger action either in Iraq or other mideast countries.   Unfortantely I agree with you, but I hope he finds the courage to give the green light to our fighting men. I guess I'm lost. To what red light are you referring?  What has the military asked for that Pres. Bush has not provided?

I'm talking about restrictive rules of engagement, refusal to use Bradleys rather than Humvees because it might upset the populace...no overall balls-to-the-wall combat approach.  We're using half measures and "proportionate" responses when we should be pulverizing them.

I agree, however, that the military probably has not asked President Bush if they can take the gloves off and fight for real.  The War College is teaching Just War Theory, one of the tenets of which is Proportionality.  Today's military leadership is probably not equipped philosophically to do what needs to be done to win.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't know what GWB is waiting for to finally set our boys loose on the enemy. He's in his last term I hate to say it, but don't hold your breath.  Since the days following 9/11, GWB's courage has been on the decline.  I doubt he'll take stronger action either in Iraq or other mideast countries.   Unfortantely I agree with you, but I hope he finds the courage to give the green light to our fighting men. I guess I'm lost. To what red light are you referring?  What has the military asked for that Pres. Bush has not provided? I'm talking about restrictive rules of engagement, refusal to use Bradleys rather than Humvees because it might upset the populace...no overall balls-to-the-wall combat approach.  We're using half measures and "proportionate" responses when we should be pulverizing them. I agree, however, that the military probably has not asked President Bush if they can take the gloves off and fight for real.  The War College is teaching Just War Theory, one of the tenets of which is Proportionality.  Today's military leadership is probably not equipped philosophically to do what needs to be done to win.

They should at least offer WAR215 "Total War", or WAR218 "Warring For Survival".

As electives at least...

Couldn't have anything to do with all the locals they hire to work on the bases could it?

Quoted: Quoted: the teams had 2 saws with them and several m4/203's and still didnt have a chance. they were ambushed. there is a video of the ambush on ogrish.com.  they show the equipment they took off the mairnes. very sad. it even shows what looks like an iraqi police truck inthe area at the same time. M--f--krs

Its called being stabbed in the back by a "friend".  During the Vietnam War, there was more than one case of s "South Vietnamese" soldier turning around and shooting an American Soldier - because this South Vietnamese soldier really worked for the North Vietnamese.  I myself would have a very difficult time trusting an Iraqi Policeman or Soldier.  My rule of thumb is "If they were not your friend before the war started, they are not your friend after the war started."

Quoted: Well the reason they couldn't return fire was because probably because the snipers were probably doing their sniper thing (hiding, prone position or whatever) and had their cheesy uber sexy match grade bolt-guns. So when they were ambushed, they couldn't get out their normal rifles (if they had them) or at the very least a sidearm or even a 10MOA AK.

Even if this is a joke, it is a piss poor joke.

Quoted: Quoted: Well the reason they couldn't return fire was because probably because the snipers were probably doing their sniper thing (hiding, prone position or whatever) and had their cheesy uber sexy match grade bolt-guns. So when they were ambushed, they couldn't get out their normal rifles (if they had them) or at the very least a sidearm or even a 10MOA AK. Even if this is a joke, it is a piss poor joke.

Definitely not the time for humor.

Quoted: Chechens

Probably those mutha-phuckers.

When will the US just do an arc light strike on one of these rat-hole towns. The citizens are guilty by association. This is in the area that refused to take part in the elections and the new government. Make an example of them, even if its said to be an accident.

General Sherman said along the line, 'War is cruel, you must be crueler if you want to finish war quickly.'

My sympathies for the marines, their families and the corps.

That's why we should turn it all into a glass bowl and let the survivors start over!


Rest in Peace these fine men, for their deaths will not be in vain.




                                                                 

metroplex, you still here?

Let me give you some helpful advice.  Get some real world experience before you start typing so much.  You've gone beyond smarting off about cleaning equipment and such.  Now you are making dumb-ass assumptions about dead men who potentially have acquaintences that post here.  Tread lightly.

Read more, post less.

To paraphrase your post to me last month - who invited you?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't know what GWB is waiting for to finally set our boys loose on the enemy. He's in his last term I hate to say it, but don't hold your breath.  Since the days following 9/11, GWB's courage has been on the decline.  I doubt he'll take stronger action either in Iraq or other mideast countries.   Unfortantely I agree with you, but I hope he finds the courage to give the green light to our fighting men. I guess I'm lost. To what red light are you referring?  What has the military asked for that Pres. Bush has not provided? I'm talking about restrictive rules of engagement, refusal to use Bradleys rather than Humvees because it might upset the populace...no overall balls-to-the-wall combat approach.  We're using half measures and "proportionate" responses when we should be pulverizing them. I agree, however, that the military probably has not asked President Bush if they can take the gloves off and fight for real.  The War College is teaching Just War Theory, one of the tenets of which is Proportionality.  Today's military leadership is probably not equipped philosophically to do what needs to be done to win.

Where is Patton when you need him?

Quoted: metroplex, you still here? Let me give you some helpful advice.  Get some real world experience before you start typing so much.  You've gone beyond smarting off about cleaning equipment and such.  Now you are making dumb-ass assumptions about dead men who potentially have acquaintences that post here.  Tread lightly. Read more, post less. To paraphrase your post to me last month - who invited you?

Very nice turn of words there  

Quoted: ... I'm talking about restrictive rules of engagement, refusal to use Bradleys rather than Humvees because it might upset the populace...no overall balls-to-the-wall combat approach.  We're using half measures and "proportionate" responses when we should be pulverizing them. I agree, however, that the military probably has not asked President Bush if they can take the gloves off and fight for real.  The War College is teaching Just War Theory, one of the tenets of which is Proportionality.  Today's military leadership is probably not equipped philosophically to do what needs to be done to win.

While I can't speak for the rest of the theater, I can most assure you that is NOT the case here.

Quoted: Pentagon fears Iraqi army infiltrated by insurgents

They just figure this out? Retards.

The Iraqi peoples freedom means nothing to me. They deserve and need a brutal dictator to keep them in line. A savage and ignorant people need the same to rule over them.

Quoted: like that former member of this board.

who was that?

Quoted: Quoted: Chechens Probably those mutha-phuckers. When will the US just do an arc light strike on one of these rat-hole towns. The citizens are guilty by association. This is in the area that refused to take part in the elections and the new government. Make an example of them, even if its said to be an accident. General Sherman said along the line, 'War is cruel, you must be crueler if you want to finish war quickly.' My sympathies for the marines, their families and the corps.

I agree. We need another Gen. Sherman to end do what is needed. This is war, everything goes. You are harboring the enemy, you became the enemy. You encourage the enemy? You are the enemy. I dont see why its so hard to see.

Quoted: Quoted: like that former member of this board. who was that?

We had a soldier who was a member here, who was caught by the FBI trying to sell secrets to Al Qaeda.  I do not recall his name, but I am sure some other member can recall it.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: like that former member of this board. who was that? We had a soldier who was a member here, who was caught by the FBI trying to sell secrets to Al Qaeda.  I do not recall his name, but I am sure some other member can recall it.

wtf.  How did you find out, he admitted on the board?  How did they link him to a username on the board?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: like that former member of this board. who was that? We had a soldier who was a member here, who was caught by the FBI trying to sell secrets to Al Qaeda.  I do not recall his name, but I am sure some other member can recall it.

He was a member here? Damn, I feel sick.

Is this the same guy who leaked secrets about the Abrams tank?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: like that former member of this board. who was that? We had a soldier who was a member here, who was caught by the FBI trying to sell secrets to Al Qaeda.  I do not recall his name, but I am sure some other member can recall it. He was a member here? Damn, I feel sick. Is this the same guy who leaked secrets about the Abrams tank?

I think that was the guy.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: like that former member of this board. who was that? We had a soldier who was a member here, who was caught by the FBI trying to sell secrets to Al Qaeda.  I do not recall his name, but I am sure some other member can recall it. He was a member here? Damn, I feel sick. Is this the same guy who leaked secrets about the Abrams tank? I think that was the guy.

Rebel_Grey, IIRC.

Yes, his name was Rebel_Grey.

Quoted: Yes, his name was Rebel_Grey.

Well, I can leak some secrets about the Abrams tank too.

For instance, not many people know that an Abrams doing 30 MPH can run over a watermelon without anyone inside the tank realizing it.

Quoted: Quoted: Yes, his name was Rebel_Grey. Well, I can leak some secrets about the Abrams tank too. For instance, not many people know that an Abrams doing 30 MPH can run over a watermelon without anyone inside the tank realizing it.

I think what he was trying to sell was the details of the "special armor" and vulnerability points -- where best to target the Abrams.  They sent him up the river a long time for trying to do this, I believe.

Somebody betrayed those snipers. Those fuckin terrorists were waiting for them. RIP-America's finest.

Same Ohio reserve unit just lost 14 more Marines

14 Marines, Interpreter Killed in Iraq
American Journalist Found Shot Dead
By TINI TRAN, AP

 
 BAGHDAD, Iraq (Aug. 3) - A Marine amphibious assault vehicle patrolling during combat operations in the Euphrates River valley hit a roadside bomb Wednesday, killing 14 Marines from the same Ohio battalion that lost six men two days ago. It was the single deadliest roadside bombing of U.S. troops in Iraq.

Also, an American freelance journalist was found dead in the southern Iraqi city of Basra, the U.S. Embassy said. Steven Vincent was shot multiple times hours after he and his Iraqi translator were abducted Tuesday evening at gunpoint, police said.

The Marines killed Wednesday were assigned to 3rd Battalion, 25th Marines based in Brook Park, Ohio, a Cleveland suburb, according to Gunnery Sgt. Brad R. Lauer, public affairs chief with the unit. A civilian translator was killed and one Marine wounded.

The battalion has been fighting in the volatile Euphrates Valley in western Iraq to seal a major Syrian border infiltration route for foreign fighters. The Marines launched a series of operations in the region in May and June in hopes of pacifying the area so Iraqi military and civilian forces could assume effective control.

U.S. Army Brig. Gen. Carter Ham, in a news conference Wednesday, said American forces were mounting simultaneous assaults on a string of towns along the river to root out insurgents and cut off their freedom of movement. As insurgents resist, the area has become increasingly dangerous.

''This is a very lethal and unfortunately very adaptable enemy we are faced with,'' Ham said, though he noted that insurgents were not targeting American forces any more than usual.

Wednesday's explosion happened just outside the town of Haditha, 140 miles northwest of Baghdad. The Marines were riding in an armored amphibious vehicle, or AAV, designed to carry troops from ship to shore and on land. It has a road speed of about 45 mph and can carry up to 25 Marines.

Marines often criticize the protection provided by the AAVs. Since the vehicle is also designed to be dropped from ships for coastal assaults, the armor plating is not as heavy as that of the Bradley fighting vehicles the Army uses.

The new losses follow the deaths of seven U.S. Marines in combat two days ago in the same operation. One died in a suicide car bombing in Hit, another Euphrates River town. The other six, from the same Cleveland battalion, were killed Monday in Haditha while on sniper duty.

The extremist Ansar al-Sunnah Army claimed responsibility for killing the six.

 
Deadliest Attacks on U.S. Troops in Iraq  
 
 
  Getty Images
Helicopter wreckage is removed Nov. 16, 2003, from Mosul.
 Aug. 3:
Marine vehicle strikes bomb near Syrian border, killing 14 Marines.

Aug. 1:
Seven Marines die in effort to stem flow of foreign fighters to Iraq. Six Marines killed in combat in Haditha; one killed by suicide bomb in Hit.

Jan. 26
U.S. transport helicopter crashes in bad weather in Iraq's western desert; at least 31 Marines die.

Dec. 21, 2004:
Suicide blast at mess tent at base near Mosul kills 22, including 14 American soldiers.

Nov. 15, 2003:
Two Black Hawk helicopters collide while trying to avoid ground fire in Mosul, killing 17 U.S. troops.

Nov. 2, 2003:
U.S. helicopter shot down near Fallujah, killing 16 U.S. soldiers.

March 23, 2003:
Eleven American troops die in ambush of convoy in Nasiriyah. Army Pvt. Jessica Lynch and six others captured.


Source: AP

 
 
The group's Web site Wednesday posted still photographs showing a bloody, badly wounded body wearing Marine camouflage trousers and two hooded gunmen standing in front of several rifles. Masked gunmen had shown up in the Haditha public market Monday afternoon displaying helmets, flak jackets and other equipment they said was taken from the bodies of the dead Marines.

One of the six, Lance Cpl. Jeff Boskovitch, 25, was an aspiring police officer who planned to set a wedding date with his girlfriend when he returned home this fall. He joined the Marine reserves in 2000, his uncle Paul Boskovitch said Tuesday.

''We got a lot of e-mail from him,'' Boskovitch said. ''He felt he was making a difference there and that the Iraqi people were appreciative of what they were doing.

At least 1,820 members of the U.S. military have died since the Iraq war began in March 2003, according to an Associated Press count. The latest deaths come as the Bush administration is talking about handing more security responsibility to the Iraqis and drawing down forces next year.

At least 39 American service members have been killed in Iraq since July 24 - all but two in combat. In addition, the Iraqi Defense Ministry said that since the beginning of April, more than 2,700 Iraqis - about half of them civilians - had been killed in insurgency-related incidents.

The slain journalist, Steven Vincent of New York, had been in Basra for several months working on a book about the city's history. Five gunmen in a police car abducted him and his female translator at gunpoint Tuesday evening as they left a currency exchange shop, police Lt. Col. Karim al-Zaidi said.

In an opinion column published July 31 in The New York Times, Vincent wrote that Basra's police force had been heavily infiltrated by members of Shiite political groups, including those loyal to radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.

He quoted an unidentified Iraqi police lieutenant as saying that some police were behind many of the assassinations of former Baath Party members that have taken place in Basra. He also criticized British forces for failing to curb the infiltration.

His body was discovered on the side of the highway south of Basra later. He had been shot in the head and multiple times in the body, al-Zaidi said.

Vincent had kept a Web log about his experiences in Basra, with the entries written as letters to his wife, Lisa.

As he mulled the relationship between democracy, the Middle East and the war in Iraq, Vincent was at times cynical but more often cautiously optimistic and determined to find signs of hope and progress among the Iraqis he interviewed and befriended.

In an entry from June 12, 2005, he wrote: ''The people here desperately need - and deserve - law and order, a sense that justice can prevail against malevolent powers stalking their nation.''

According to the New York-based Committee to Protect Journalists, at least 46 journalists and 20 media support workers have been killed covering the war in Iraq since March 2003. Insurgent actions are responsible for the bulk of deaths.

The Vienna, Austria-based media watchdog International Press Institute condemned Vincent's killing and urged Iraqi authorities to conduct a speedy and thorough investigation.

The death underscored how ''Iraq continues to be the most dangerous country in the world in which to work as a journalist,'' the group said.

If it was the Chechens (I know, PURE unadulterated speculation at this point)... would this be the first reported action of Chechen Muslims in either of the sandboxes?

Edit... and RIP to those Marines, and may God comfort their families...

Quoted: If it was the Chechens (I know, PURE unadulterated speculation at this point)... would this be the first reported action of Chechen Muslims in either of the sandboxes?

Not even close to being the first.




Semper Fi, brothers.

I have to wonder whether or not this was just a simple betrayal or whether there's something else at work here....This does not look like the work of your average batch of  foreign jihadist fighters....

Having a rat in place is one thing, but the way the actual killing of the sniper teams, looks to have taken place, is just way to slick for the usual cast of suspects. I makes one wonders, if there might be some foriegn Middle Eastern special forces talent, from anouther Sunni country, pulling the strings on this one.

I

Maybe if we start blowing up shit every time a fucking American is killed then they would get the fucking point and help hunt down the worthless fucking trash themselves.  RIP Marines.

BTT

Quoted: Quoted: I have to wonder whether or not this was just a simple betrayal or whether there's something else at work here....This does not look like the work of your average batch of  foreign jihadist fighters.... Having a rat in place is one thing, but the way the actual killing of the sniper teams, looks to have taken place, is just way to slick for the usual cast of suspects. I makes one wonders, if there might be some foriegn Middle Eastern special forces talent, from anouther Sunni country, pulling the strings on this one. I Almost certainly Syrian Special Forces are operating in Iraq now.  Their Military Intelligence is known to be.  A Syrian Military Intelligence Officer was captured and interviewed on Iraqi TV in February. There have been a number of high profile, high loss actions recently in that region that have been 'too good' for your usual ragged arsed Jihaddi. British C-130K supporting Special Forces in the region is shot down, USMC CH-53 goes down with heavy loss of life, Sniper teams being directly targeted and killed, high grade explosive devices totally destroying APC's. As you say, very professional stuff. ANdy

I have no doubt about the Syrians.

I watched the videos. I did not understand them. Till the last one showing the guns that were taken from the Marines which did include two bolt action sniper rifles.

We should start bombing Syria.

Message to Syrians or whoever killed our boys yesterday and today:

Payback is a bitch.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: like that former member of this board. who was that? We had a soldier who was a member here, who was caught by the FBI trying to sell secrets to Al Qaeda.  I do not recall his name, but I am sure some other member can recall it.

RebelGrey

ETA: Oops, didn't read the whole thread.

From the archives, posted by TRW

Mods please delete if this is a dupe....

I think this guy was a participant here under the name of Rebel_Grey?

-------------------------------------------------

Soldier Guilty Of Trying To Aid Al-Qaida
Associated Press
September 3, 2004


FORT LEWIS, Wash. - A National Guardsman accused of trying to give al-Qaida information about U.S. troops, including methods for killing soldiers, was found guilty Thursday on all five counts of trying to help the terrorist network.

The verdict in Spc. Ryan G. Anderson's court-martial, which began Monday, was announced late Thursday afternoon.

Anderson, a tank crewman whose 81st Armor Brigade unit is now in Iraq, was accused of trying to give terrorists information about U.S. troops' strength and tactics. The terrorists he thought he was meeting with were actually undercover federal agents, prosecutors said.

A military spokesman has said the charges amount to attempted treason.

Anderson, who did not testify during the guilt phase of his trial, took the stand Thursday evening in the penalty phase and wept, apologizing to his country and his family.

"I would rather give my life" than do anything to discredit the military, he told the jury, saying he felt "really lousy" about his actions.

When the verdict was announced, Anderson's father, Bruce Anderson, reached over and placed a hand on the back of his son's wife, Erin, who cried quietly. Ryan Anderson showed no visible reaction.

The jury of nine commissioned officers from Fort Lewis deliberated about 4 1/2 hours before reaching a verdict. A two-thirds majority was needed to convict Anderson, but the vote was not immediately announced.

Jurors deliberated late into the night Thursday as they considered what sentencing recommendation to send to Lt. Gen. Edward Soriano, the base commander.

Anderson, a 27-year-old Muslim convert, could face a maximum penalty of life in prison.

In closing arguments earlier Thursday, an Army prosecutor said Anderson was clear about his intentions in cell-phone text messages, e-mails and meetings with the undercover agents.

"It shows that ... the information he has he's willing to share it with al-Qaida," Maj. Melvin Jenks told jurors.

Defense attorney Maj. Joseph Morse countered that the Army had not proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Anderson intended to help al-Qaida. He said Anderson's grandiose ideas, actions and tendency to ramble on were all indicative of his mental disorders.

"We're not saying he doesn't know right from wrong," Morse said in his closing argument. Rather, "it's like his good-idea filter is broken."

Psychologists testifying Wednesday for the defense said Anderson suffers from bipolar disorder, formerly called manic depression, and Asperger's syndrome, a high-functioning form of autism that impairs cognitive and social functioning.

Because of those conditions, Morse said, Anderson could not form the criminal intent needed for a guilty verdict.

In his rebuttal, Jenks said the defense was trying to shield the jury from the "real Ryan Anderson," a person he said has no empathy for others and jeopardized his fellow soldiers.

"The only person Ryan Anderson cares about is Ryan Anderson," Jenks said.

He again showed a segment of a secretly recorded videotape of Anderson's Feb. 9 meeting with the undercover agents. The clip showed Anderson telling the men he is a tank ammunitions loader and explaining how to damage the M1A1 Abrams, the Army's primary battle tank, and kill American soldiers.

"See Amir Abdul Rashid for what he is," Jenks urged the panel, using the name Anderson used in communications on extremist Web sites. "A traitor. A traitor who betrayed our country, a traitor who betrayed our Army and a traitor who betrayed our fellow soldiers."


Another post of his, illustrative of his thinking -------------------------------------


Sorry I've taken a while to get back to everyone here but I've been house sitting. If you want to catch my posts when I'm not at home hang out at ar15.com, its my home away from home, even if it is the biggest bunch of rednecks I've ever met sometimes. Amoung them I dont let on to my Muslim background because when I did, I was followed around and flamed for a month because of it.

As for Hans' comment about the KKK uniform, no but I've several versions of the European equivalent. As a soldier, and a militant at heart myself I have a little obsession with milatarist field regalia, Nazi, Soviet, Imperial Japanese, Peronist Argentine, British Imperial. Of all of the ethnicities I look the most German and enjoy the sharp lines and form-in-function of Whermacht and SS field uniforms. They were designed by some of the best propagandists Europe had to offer in the 30s and they look no less stunning today. Although I claim none of the racist crap they held on to, I refuse to damn their more impressive points simply because they were the bad guys.

A little asside here on this note-one of the best build individual weapons ever was the Haenel MKb42 (Machinenkarbiner 1942, correct me if I butchered that, I took French in school).

The round it shot was the right balance between lethality and weight reduction over the standard 7.92x56mm Mauser battle rifle cartridge, and the rifle itself was a technological masterpice that would make the Swiss jealous.

It was such a marvelous design that it dissapated muzzle rise and the loss of controlability associated with most automatic rifles, allowing a soldier to place entire magazines worth of burst-fire on an individual target the same way most marksman place a single shot.

It was intricatly designed, but at the same time cheap to manufacture and easy to maintain and repair in the field. In the East soldiers wrote letters in the thousands BEGGING high command for more of these weapons. At first Hitler was furious because he had forbade any further research on intermediate caliber rifles in favor of machineguns. Then he came to like the idea, but he had a political argument with Haenel so he demanded another company give him a design. Hugo Schmisser reworked the Haenel rifle so as to avoid copyright and patent infringements and brought the rifle before Hitler. A week later it went into production as the (in)famous Sturmgewehr 1944, christened by Hitler himself; the world's first mass-produced Assault Rifle.

When the war ended the Allied forces recognized the merits of the design and the few remaining MKb42s outshot everything the allied and later NATO design teams could come up with including the AR15 (m16 type) in the late 1950s. Kalashnikov's original submission to the Soviet High Command was nothing more than a reverse engineered MKb42, but as in the west, it was DAMNED for being a Nazi weapon, and so for literaly the last 50 years there has been a safer, more accurate, more reliable weapon that soldiers *could* have been issued on the battlefield, but they wernt because of its origins.

That out of the way, I kind of lost my choo-choo of thought but I was going to say I've read on CNN multiple times in the past few years about the rising tide of anti-semitism in some parts of Europe, with radical politicians who support such views finding increasingly mainstream support, support that would have been unthinkable twenty years ago. That the Neo-Nazis that keep marching in Germany and Austria and other places are a new fixture as well, no matter how extreme and far between their occurances, they are growing.

But I'm not there now am I? A bit of misinformation on the part of the liberal media over here? Hmmm. I wonder why though.


Ryan

Quoted: If it was the Chechens (I know, PURE unadulterated speculation at this point)... would this be the first reported action of Chechen Muslims in either of the sandboxes?

I've heard that they've been there for some time now. And the men from BW have encountered them....or so I've heard.

Quoted: Same Ohio reserve unit just lost 14 more Marines

Inside jobs.  

RIP