Quoted: Quoted: On a related topic, do you know how hard it is to buy American shoes now?  LL Bean now makes most of their shoes in El Salvador.  Jesus Christ.  LL Bean. Red Wings  still makes Shoes in Minnesota

Actually, that is what I am wearing right now.  Very comfortable, now three years old and still in great shape.  Worn them for years.  Salt water and diesel won't make them crumble, soles stay tacky as well.  Nice boots.

Quoted: Quoted: On a related topic, do you know how hard it is to buy American shoes now?  LL Bean now makes most of their shoes in El Salvador.  Jesus Christ.  LL Bean. Red Wings  still makes Shoes in Minnesota

Looks like my next pair of work shoes will be made by Red Wings.


Vulcan94

Quoted: I just think this sets us up for further "dismantling" of our nation and it's workforce.... that is all

That and 20 million Illegals already here in this Country willing to work for alot less than you

Why do you think Bush is pushing his Amnesty Plan for Illegals ???

Danner still makes their better boots in Oregon.

Justin still make the work boots that I wear and most of their cowbot boots in Texas.

BigDozer66

Since NAFTA passed in  1994 the US economy added over 20 MILLION jobs. The average inflation adjusted wage of production workers rose from $11 per hour to over $16 per hour. Unemployment fell from over 5.5% to less than 5%. During this same period the US economy grew at a rate three times that of Mexico and twice as fast as Canada's.

The nations covered by the CAFTA agreement have a smaller combined GDP than that of Mexico.

Sorry to mess up your your little "We are doomed" party with pesky facts.

Quoted: Since NAFTA passed in 1994 the US economy added over 20 MILLION jobs. The average inflation adjusted wage of production workers rose from $11 per hour to over $16 per hour. Unemployment fell from over 5.5% to less than 5%. During this same period the US economy grew at a rate three times that of Mexico and twice as fast as Canada's.

First, if you are saying we added 20 million net jobs, you’re wrong.  Second, please compare apples to apples.  You have to remove the jobs created by the .com boom, and compare manufacturing jobs before and after.

You will find that we had a net loss of 4 million skilled labor jobs from 1994-2001.

The nations covered by the CAFTA agreement have a smaller combined GDP than that of Mexico Connecticut.

Fixed it (not kidding).

Sorry to mess up your little "We are doomed" party with pesky facts.

So tell me, what part of the Constitution allows our elected leaders to abdicate responsibility?

It's not about "doom and gloom" from an economic standpoint, it's about the loss of sovereignty.  CAFTA falls under the WTO, and creates even more foreign controlled bureaucracy, passing judgment on what American business practices and regulations are "fair".  The WTO has already fined us and told us that laws passed by OUR .gov are "unfair".  Utter bullshit.

Folks, if you don't like the idea of NAFTA or CAFTA, wait till you see the FTAA!

Quoted: Quoted: Since NAFTA passed in 1994 the US economy added over 20 MILLION jobs. The average inflation adjusted wage of production workers rose from $11 per hour to over $16 per hour. Unemployment fell from over 5.5% to less than 5%. During this same period the US economy grew at a rate three times that of Mexico and twice as fast as Canada's. First, if you are saying we added 20 million net jobs, you’re wrong.  Second, please compare apples to apples.  You have to remove the jobs created by the .com boom, and compare manufacturing jobs before and after. You will find that we had a net loss of 4 million skilled labor jobs from 1994-2001. The nations covered by the CAFTA agreement have a smaller combined GDP than that of Mexico Connecticut. Fixed it (not kidding). Sorry to mess up your little "We are doomed" party with pesky facts. So tell me, what part of the Constitution allows our elected leaders to abdicate responsibility? It's not about "doom and gloom" from an economic standpoint, it's about the loss of sovereignty.  CAFTA falls under the WTO, and creates even more foreign controlled bureaucracy, passing judgment on what American business practices and regulations are "fair".  The WTO has already fined us and told us that laws passed by OUR .gov are "unfair".  Utter bullshit. Folks, if you don't like the idea of NAFTA or CAFTA, wait till you see the FTAA!

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the US economy added a total of over 20 MILLION NET FULL TIME JOBS between January 1994 (when NAFTA took effect) and June of 2005. The average wage, again according to BLS figures, rose from $11 to $16 per hour. From where did you get your silly loss of 4 million jobs figure?

As for which part of the Constitution would allow Congress to pass such laws, try Article I, Section 8:

The Congress shall have power to... regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

Quoted: According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the US economy added a total of over 20 MILLION NET FULL TIME JOBS between January 1994 (when NAFTA took effect) and June of 2005. The average wage, again according to BLS figures, rose from $11 to $16 per hour. From where did you get your silly loss of 4 million jobs figure?

<Fingers in Ears>
LA LA LA I can't hear you LA LA LA
</Fingers in Ears>

Look at you, standing there will your "facts"
and "statistics" and "logic." You are obviously
in the pocket of big business. Go away so we
can continue our class war. It is hard enough
to keep a straight face while calling ourselves
"conservatives" without you coming in here
and messing up our concentration.

Quoted: Quoted: Well that's just great. There goes about another 500,000 or so American jobs to 3rd world countries. What did NAFTA cost us? 750,000 jobs? Waits for the idiots  *but it's GOOD for the country, because the economy will swell with tons of new goods coming in and americans buying....... blah.... blah...... blah........ * This.......  Makes me sick. Fucking country is going to hell, in amazingly short order.

Is it time for the third box yet?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: We buy their bananas and they buy our...  what?  Is anything made in America anymore? I was screaming at the TV "What fucking products? Hint: "Breadbasket of the world"

Wrong.  The US is a net food importer as of 2003.

Quoted: Can anybody name any company who reduced the price of their product after moving production to (insert Country name here)? Anyone?........... Anyone?........... The thing that gets me is that they don't realize that their customers soon won't be able to afford their products. Vulcan94

Their customers aren't Americans anymore.  They're the new Chinese middle class.

When Corporate America exported jobs and industry to flow to less expensive producers in the early 1990s, they claimed that we would be switching to an "information-based service economy." They were right - McDonalds definitely uses "information management tools" to allow the unlawfully imported black-market laborer to take your order for fast food that will kill you.

Those workers make about what American workers, typically teenagers, did in 1986 even though the price of a new car has gone from $13,000 to about $19,000, and houses have gone up more than 100% since then. Most of the workers currently in the food industry are foreign national adults.

So the greedy CEOs export jobs, and import workers IN VIOLATION OF THE LAW.

Good thing I'm a conservative Libertarian, or my values would mirror that of the Repulican Party - "Big Business at all costs! Fuck everybody who gets in their way!"

The motto of the American consumer seems to be, "Who gives a rat's ass about quality! We won't pay for it 'cause we CAN'T FIND JOBS THAT PAY ENOUGH FOR US TO BUY IT!"

Anybody see the disconnect, there?

+1   I was just thinking about sugar coca-cola too! haha

but other than that it is sad that so many will lose the jobs they have to support their families.  

I think the underlying question is why are so many here in the US still doing jobs that can easily be done by "third world" slave labor?

The destruction of America's middle class continues...

Quoted: Quoted: On a related topic, do you know how hard it is to buy American shoes now?  LL Bean now makes most of their shoes in El Salvador.  Jesus Christ.  LL Bean. Red Wings  still makes Shoes in Minnesota

I think just their work boots.

They shifted a bunch of their other stuff to china.

Quoted: I think the underlying question is why are so many here in the US still doing jobs that can easily be done by "third world" slave labor?

Quoted: Quoted: I think the underlying question is why are so many here in the US still doing jobs that can easily be done by "third world" slave labor?

It is a good question. Why the ?

If some uneducated Indonesian can pump out
passable versions of a product, why should we
lament the loss of those jobs? We should be
striving to rid the US of "unskilled" labor, not
enacting protectionist measures to keep that
labor here.

Quoted:According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the US economy added a total of over 20 MILLION NET FULL TIME JOBS between January 1994 (when NAFTA took effect) and June of 2005. The average wage, again according to BLS figures, rose from $11 to $16 per hour.

I would ask again that we refrain from including the growth of technology sector jobs, as neither NAFTA nor CAFTA can claim to be part of that increase.  Instead, I think you will have a much harder time painting a rosy picture if you stick to things like manufacturing and textiles, both of which are affected by the agreements.  Please compare apples to apples.

The last BLS figures I saw were through 2004, and the number was closer to ~16 million net (seasonally adjusted) jobs.  I seriously doubt that we added 4 million new jobs in the first 6 months of 2005 (but feel free to prove me wrong).  Further, I do not have the numbers for historic annual job growth, but I do have the numbers for raw population growth during the same ten year period: >33 Million people.  I would "guess" that job growth is tied a bit to that number.

While I posted nothing to dispute your wage earning numbers, (and quite frankly believe that they are close to irrelevent),  when one considers a historical yearly inflation increase of about 3.5%:

In 1994, the average hourly earning was, $11.32. The 2004 average was $15.67, or roughly $0.39 higer than where that historical average inflation should put it. However, the yearly inflation rates were lower during the 90's which makes increase a bit more impressive. That said, while our average hourly wages are getting better, they are not necessarily growing as fast or better as inflation over the long term.

From where did you get your silly loss of 4 million jobs figure?

It was an excerpt from a UC Berkley study on the economic impact of the proposed impact of the FTAA.  I just double checked the BLS website, and it looks like I was wrong.  The 4 million manufacturing jobs that moved overseas must have been a gross figure.  My apologies.

The actual number from 1994 to 2004 is 2.7 million net manufacturing job losses. Again, that number is according to the BLS.

As for which part of the Constitution would allow Congress to pass such laws, try Article I, Section 8: The Congress shall have power to... regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

I still fail to see where Congress has the power to abdicate their responsibility and give the power to

...regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states..

to a third party bureacracy (the WTO) made up of member nations, which is exactly what our involvement in NAFTA and CAFTA does.

The idea of stretching the Constitution's commerce clause to include subjecting American businesses to so-called "Free Trade Agreements" regulated and enforced by an international body is worthy of a seat on the bench of the Ninth Circuit.

C'mon.  You're a historian.  Do you honestly believe that was the intent of the Founding Fathers?  

Quoted: Quoted:According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the US economy added a total of over 20 MILLION NET FULL TIME JOBS between January 1994 (when NAFTA took effect) and June of 2005. The average wage, again according to BLS figures, rose from $11 to $16 per hour. I would ask again that we refrain from including the growth of technology sector jobs, as neither NAFTA nor CAFTA can claim to be part of that increase.  Instead, I think you will have a much harder time painting a rosy picture if you stick to things like manufacturing and textiles, both of which are affected by the agreements.  Please compare apples to apples.

How many of those ex-manufacturing employees took on tech jobs?

Quoted: How many of those ex-manufacturing employees took on tech jobs?

1. I don't know.
2. I'm not aware of any agency calculating/compiling those statistics.
3. If you find a way to calculate/compile those statistics, please let me know.

Quoted: Quoted: How many of those ex-manufacturing employees took on tech jobs? 1. I don't know. 2. I'm not aware of any agency calculating/compiling those statistics. 3. If you find a way to calculate/compile those statistics, please let me know.

Since the unemployment rate went DOWN, those manufacturing jobs were made up somewhere. Job growth from 1994 to 2005 was FASTER than the rate of population growth.

BTW, the wages I listed were INFLATION ADJUSTED, so your inflation argument is completely incorrect.

Quoted: Since the unemployment rate went DOWN, those manufacturing jobs were made up somewhere.

MickeyD's? Wallyworld?  Both seem to be expanding and hiring an awful lot of new employees...

Job growth from 1994 to 2005 was FASTER than the rate of population growth.

16 is still less than 33, right?

I know, the 33Mil # is not necessarily the number of wage-capable population, just figured I'd point out that you might need to clarify to make a logical conclusion.

BTW, the wages I listed were INFLATION ADJUSTED, so your inflation argument is completely incorrect.

Actually, the wages thing was your argument, not mine.  I used the BLS numbers found here, which closely follow your numbers, but don't seem to be "inflation adjusted".  I just pointed out that the numbers add up to what one could expect when it comes that particular statistic.

Competition is wonderful.

Quoted: Competition is wonderful.

Agreed.  An agreement whereby government subsidies and international regulations are doled out by an international bureacracy, on the other hand...