[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Is Chiropractic manipulation B.S.? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 7/19/2005 6:15:05 AM EDT
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I think I pulled or pinched something in my upper back. It doesnt feel too serious but it hurts whenever I move or inhale. It feels like something is out of place and I need my spine stretched out or have some asian girls walk up and down it. I don't know if it's muscle, nerves or connective tissue that is hurting. Should I go to a Chiropractor, Osteopath or what?? Like I said it's not that serious so I don't want x-rays and everything I just want some light spine tweaking. |
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I think the AMA finally agreed that chiropratic manipulation was a source of short term relief from back pain. An osteopath, is basically an MD with some massage type manipulation, like rubbing on the head to relieve sinus pressure; not sure that much of the focus involves back problems specifically. I am not sure how many osteopaths do much of that after they finish residencies etc. |
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My personal opinion is that chiropractors are frauds and snake-oil salesmen. (Some of them may honestly be trying to be helpful, and not just trying to rip you off - but that doesn't make them any more qualified) Obviously, opinions may differ. Some people have no doubt been "helped" by chiropractors (just like some people might have been "cured" of cancer through prayer, positive thinking, voodoo magic, luck, etc )- but I still prefer actual medical advice if I have a medical problem. |
There is no such thing as "light spine tweaking". I went back to a chiropractor because I had a kink in my back I couldn't get rid of. He was able to fix it but Chiropractors today don't stop there. They have gotten on this "Wellness" kick. Meaning you have to be seen at least 2 or 3 times a week for the first 4 weeks, then you go down to just once a week for the next 4 weeks, and then once every other week after that...until they use all your insurance allowances up. If you don't follow this recommendation YOU WILL DIE...or so they try to make you think. I went 3 times last week and was supposed to come back again 3 times this week but told him I would be out of town. He scheduled me for next week and I plan on canceling. |
+1 think of chiropractic medicine as a quick fix using "adjustments" that will have to be repeated often Physical Therapists work to developed an excersise routine for you to do at home to increase strengthen in surrounding muscle groups to keep joints aligned as correctly as possible. So do you want to pay for instant gratification with no long term plan for correcting the problem or actually come up with a rehab program that may keep you from seeing a doctor every week for "adjustments" EPOCH |
You should get x-rays or a dexa scan or whatever it takes to figure out what the problem is before it gets worse (and it will if you don't effectively deal with it now). You have to be careful with Osteopaths. Most of them effectively turn into Allopaths after they graduate from med school. But a good Osteopath is more effective than either an Allopath or a Chiropractor because they do skeletal manipulations much like Chiropractors plus they can prescribe drugs and do surgery like the Allopaths. Good luck in your search for treatment! |
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I am very happy with the treatments I get from my regular doctor, and Osteopath. He is also my FAA Medical Examiner. No BS from him whatsoever. I, like many, MANY, others here, have chronic back pain, but nowhere near as bad as the Sarge. I was making an accounting the other day: 1 near-fatal fire, 6 car wrecks, 12 motorcycle crashes (on-road and off-road, not including the normal off-road dumps), 6 serious falls, one broken arm, three broken ribs, three broken toes, several broken fingers and numerous other injuries. It's not the age, it's the mileage. 
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| I went to a Chiropractor afew years ago. I tripped & fell backwards while moving a sleeper sofa. First thing he did was an X-ray to see if I could be helped by his services or if I needed to be refered to a spinal surgeon. After 3 or 4 sessions I was back to normal. I went for 8 weeks after that for "adjustments". After that I stopped going. As sgtar stated I think ssome try to pratice it like "real medicene" and will refer to surgeons if needed. Others are just quacks looking for Insurance dollars. . I lucked out finding a decent ( read honest) one. |
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A good Chiro will be able to take x rays to determine what the problem is, and if he can actually help you. He'll also want to make sure that you don't have something messed up that he's only going to fuck up worse with his manipulations. I've been to several in the course of my life, and some seemed to help more than others. It also depends on the specific problem. ETA: Post 100. Wooo hooo. Only took me 2 years and 2 months too. |
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My mother could not sleep at night due to a sciatic nerve problem causing huge amounts of pain in her back. She went to a chiropractor and he fixed her up good. I think she’s had to do this twice in the past 8-9 years. It’s probably been 5 years since she’s had any problems now though. Take that for what it’s worth. I still remember at one point, she was sleeping in my computer chair at night with a blanket because it was the only way she could rest without causing so much pain. |
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I'm a Chiropractor, now in med school. I got out of it because of the ALL the reasons posted here and then some. Be careful, your condition can become ALL about the money for them. Chiros do get more training than Osteopaths in adjusting... A good one will fix you up pretty quick or tell you to go elsewhere. For what its worth. |
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Avoid anybody with a "clinic" or "center." Avoid anybody who tries to sell you vitamins. Get a referral from a friend or co-worker. My chiropractor is a real healer, no BS, he adjusts me and says "Call me tomorrow if you're not feeling better." ETA: About a month ago, I was so miserable with back pain I couldn't stand to sit down, lie down, or stand up. I couldn't think of anything but pain, and didn't have the gumption to fry an egg. I had some pretty good pain meds, which knocked it out and (thank God) lifted my mood, but once they wore off, I wasn't worth the powder it would take to shoot me dead. After putting up with it for about 3 weeks (like an idiot) I jumped up and went to see my Chiropractor. Old guy, ex-marine, private office, no ads, takes insurance but hates it because of the scams it invites, hates quack chiros, regularly refers patients to MDs - a country boy, but a real professional and a prince of a man. He adjusted me and as always said "Wait a day or two and then call me if you're not better." No pressure, no "treatment plan," no $60 pillows, just a guy with a good heart and skills to heal. Three treatments later (less than $200 total) and I was back to having a life. Yes, there are quack jackasses and hucksters - just like there are MDs who will prescribe the latest thing the pharmacy rep is pushing no matter what's wrong with you. When Neurontin was new and hot, I had a guy prescribe it for me for radiculopathy, while friends were getting it prescribed for migraines, chronic muscle aches, and anything else you could name. Everybody I knew who took it said it was (as it was for me) like eating one extra Cheerio a day, or it made them sick. That doesn't mean all MDs are quacks. If you can find a good and good-hearted Chiropractor, you will find aging with grace much easier. |
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There's a guy here in town that is constantly trying to give out "herbal muscle relaxers". The first time I went to him, he gave me some muscle relaxers. I, of course, took them. When I got the bill I ended up owing him like $200.00 AFTER INSURANCE. Man I flipped out. Turns out, my insurance doesn't cover crap like that, and I didn't know that he was giving me herbal crap. I didn't pay it, and I've never been back to him since. |
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I've seen good and bad. Good: Had a guy who worked me who was born with a gimp right arm and right leg. It affected his posture so much that some days he couldn't walk, stand or sit (?). He comes back from a 1-hour chiro visit and he's ready to go. Bad: My wife visited one for upper back pain. After every visit she came home worse than before. Chiro kept saying "it's beginning to work." every damn time. |
| I dunno about the merits of chiropractors one way or the other. However I had a friend who was one who'd let me use the automatic massage tables for free on off hours. One of them had waterjets inside, the other was mechanical rollers. Man, after an hour on those tables I felt like a million bucks. |
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It's been my experience that chiropractors will treat you as long as your insurance is willing to pay them. After that you are "magically fixed." Creating more mobility in the spine by "popping it" is never a good idea IMO. I'd rather see a family physician and get a referral for physical therapy. Chiropractors ARE NOT MEDICAL DOCTORS. This is, of course, just my humble opinion. YMMV spelling edit |
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In my experience yes they are BS. Like others have stated I've only recieved temorary relief from chiropracters. Several years ago I was at work and lifting some really heavy boxes. The boxes were up on top of those heavy duty metal shelving units that are typical in the back of warehouses. The boxes I was lifting needed to be moved straight across an aisle to another shelving unit. There was only about 2-3ft between the shelves so I figured I'd climb up on the shelving unit, put one foot on one and the other foot on the other unit so I was straddling the aisle and then pick up the boxes from one and move them over the other...big mistake. My back took a major beating from doing that. I tweaked it just right and the next morning I was almost immobile from the pain. I was laying flat on my back and it was so excruciating to try and roll over in either direction that I literally had to have someone stand over me and pull me up to get up. I remember it happened right before the year 2000 new years celebration and not being able to go anywhere to party. I ended up laying flat on the floor not even able to turn my head to the side to see the TV and watch to see if Y2K happened .It was that way for a couple of weeks and not getting all that much better. I could tell from the way it hurt that it was not a problem in my actual spine or in any discs, but that one of the long muscles that runs up on either side of my spine was pulled/torn/inflamed whatever. That muscle was very tight. I could tell by touching it and comparing it with the other side that it was very tight. And also because I was litterally leaning to that side of my body from the muscle pulling my upper torso in that direction! So, after much prodding by my mother to go see a chiropracter I finally went. The first thing the guy does is says that he wants to take an x-ray of my back. So, he takes an x-ray of my back and says, "Yep, there's your problem. See how much your spine is out of alignment? It's leaning way to one side."  Duh, dipshit. Did you not notice how far to one side I was leaning without the damn x-ray? And did you think that it's not the spine that's the problem, but the muscle that's so tight it's pulling it that way? No, of course not. So the guy puts me down on a bench and starts jumping on me cracking my back and shit. And what do you know it actually felt better...for about 6 hours and then it was worse that it was before. The dipshit had further inflamed the muscle. The only thing I can think of is that it went numb for a few hours from him jumping on it and cranking on it. Needless to say I did not go back. I took it easy on my back for the next two months and went to an actual doctor who helped me with some PT and it finally, but slowly healed. |
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All you need to know about chiropractic. clicky There are some good ones out there, but very few. Most are like used car salesmen who just want your cash, some are like cult leaders who have delusions of grandeur. If you want a temporary fix to sme pain, then find a good one who wont BS you or sign you up for multiple repeat visits. Its a temorary thing and will not fix a thing. If they tell you they can fix a problem for good (they wont say for good because they know its BS) leave the office. If you see pamphlets about food toxidity, leave. If you see any literature about any non scientific healing methods, leave. |
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Mine was pretty cool. X-rays first. Nothing bad luckily. After the first session I asked about thereputic exercises that would help. He gave me that "but that'll cure you and I'll be out of a customer look"  , but he gave the info requested, showing me the right and wrong way. I showed up for a couple more sessions which helped temporarily, but the exercises helped a lot more. He's a good guy and I'd trust him to adjust my back. Just make sure you ask for a method of fixing the root cause, and not just adjusting your back everytime it goes out. |
I got one just like that. After insurance stopped paying, he told me I was good as new. Years later he got sued for defrauding insurance companies. He kept his license and practice, but lost his house to judgement. And here being So. Cal., make sure you ask for "Happy Ending" 
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Short version of my story: I have a recurrent lower back/pelvis issue that I have had treated by both medical doctors and chiropractors. The MD (not my current MD) put me on muscle relaxers and anti-inflammitories, and advised bedrest and ice. Quite a bit of time went by, it didn't get better. He refilled my scrips and advised "more ice". I was minimally functional in a week, so I considered it "as cured" as it was goign to be. It took several more weeks before it didn't hurt constantly. The next time that happened, I decided to go to a local chiropractor. I had chiropractic treatment for back problems when I played football, and it always seemed to help. The chiropractor took my history, did a basic examination, and did one simple manipulation during which I felt a very sharp snap in my sacral-illiac joint. The pain was immediately gone, I was back on my feet, and he advised that I ice it and do some particular stretches and strengthening exercises for my lower back/pelvis. Now I very rarely have this problem, but when I have had it, I have a choice: Do I want weeks of feeling like crap, large doctor's bills and prescription costs, and spending an inordinate amount of time in bed, or do I want to spend 20 minutes and $25 at the chiropractor's office and then lightly ice and ibuprofen for a few days, getting complete, reliable, instantaneous relief? Jim |
I have had good experiences even in the presence of such quackery, simply because I let them know from the start that I am familiar with good chiropractic care and will not tolerate any useless crap and witch doctory. Jim |
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I've managed several rental houses near a chiropractic college, so I've probably meet 200 or so of them over the past 32 years. They teach that all health problems are caused by spinal column misalignments. I had several of them tell me that my wife's stroke could have been prevented by having one of them work with her back. The owner of one of the houses had lung cancer so I took-over maintenance of his houses, and I had several students there beg me to get the owner to go see a chiropractor to "get his cancer fixed." Even after years of dealing with them, I'm always stunned that they believe that crap. They don't even realize how much of a fraud they are. Dealing with them is a lot like dealing with a cult.z |
| a lot of professional and olympic athletes use chiropractors for certain types of injuries. i had some neck problems about ten years ago and was helped by a chiroprator. for certain injuries i believe chiropractors are superior to a regular doctor however it depends upon the injury. |
That is the quackery to which I referred. I really don't think the local chiropractor I've gone to here believes this. Or, if he does, he has the good sense to never let on about it when I'm around. Jim |
My fellow former member of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children is correct. Many chiro's are quacks and many are excellent professionals. My impression is that there is less QA in the chiro profession than in the MD/DO professions. Admitedly I'm biased as an allopath, but the science (IMHO) behind manipulation is shaky at best. With that said, I've many patients that swear by manipulation. My best friend in residency was an Osteopath and he was incredible when it came to cracking backs. In my experience; manipulation is great for myofascial pain syndromes, but for actual skeletal malformations: a series of back crackings is NOT going to change the structure of your spine. We call people with spinal instability current or potential paraplegics. If a chiro says you have myofascial issues that could benefit from manipulation and strengthening, then he is probably on the ball. If he gives you a song and dance about "instability" and "misalignment", (Monty Python voice one) RUN AWAY, RUN AWAY! 
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No, the only research done on the subject showed that chiropractic care is no better than placebos for back pain. |
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I used to work for an organization of about 500 of them. This issue has been argued to death in a number of forums. Let me give you the bottom line how it always turns out. Various people will say that they think chiros are good or bad. No one will offer any real research that shows that chiropractic is any better than a placebo -- which puts it somewhat lower on the scale than an aspirin tablet. Sooner or later on these threads a chiropractor himself will show up, claiming that chiropractic really works. When they are asked for any research that actually shows that, they come up with basically nothing. If you want a really interesting look at the profession, ask them to define a "subluxation" -- such that it could be definitively found on an X-Ray. "Subluxations" - a supposed misalignment of bones -- is the heart of the chiropractic profession. That is what they are supposed to cure. But -- Surprise! They don't even agree on what a "subluxation" is themselves. They give different definitions, and no two of them will find the same set of "subluxations" on a set of x-rays. However, they will all find something that requirements treatment and you paying them for that treatment, of course. Not that there is any evidence that a misalignment of bones could cause the things they say, anyway. None. Of the 500 or so I knew, I would say that the integrity of most ranked right about the level of the used car salesman. There were a few who were somewhat honest and really cared about their patients, but mostly they were about low-class con games. Even the ones who were comparatively honest were not great health scholars. They believed it, but they didn't have any research to show it worked, either. I had a car accident once while I worked there. I can't tell you how many of them offered to make the medical bills come out right -- and I didn't even have to go into their offices for treatment. |
Do you know of any legitimate research that shows that chiropractic offers any better results than ordinary placebos? OK, end of story. |
No, but I can testify under oath that I have walked into a chiropractor's so miserable I didn't want to live, walked out cursing him for a quack and a thief, and jumped out of bed the next day ready to face the world. I can tell you that any number of relatives heard my father refer to them as "witchdoctors" and refuse to see one for anything, up until the point (in about 1960) when he was bedridden with asthma a week before the physical capacity test (climb the ladder, drag the dummy, et c.) for the fire department. When he was completely helpless, his father-in-law put carried him in his arms to the car and up the stairs to a chiropractor's office where he received one treatment, walked out under his own power, and passed the test a few days later. Certainly, chiropractic treatment for cancer or liver failure is just plain nuts. However, I have seen and experienced its efficacy in treating conditions legitimately within the scope of the trade. |
Placebos really do work some of the time. That's why they have to test everything against placebos. If they work for you, great. But they are still just placebos. |
Massage tables are teh SHIT! I used to do some adjustments myself, to the timer!!! My chiro helped me get into the army by STOPPING my migraines for a year. I met him in my CCW class. He saw me BUT didnt charge me the copay, billed my insurance. After a YEAR he told me my insurance stopped paying for treatment 9 months previous and he could only treat me for another year for free. After that I was on my own. Great guy and a pretty damn good shot. |
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Yes, temporary relief again here. Perfect for kinks, etc. Sometimes they have massage therapists that work with them. +1 for the quick (quack) fix or band-aid technique... I recently went to have my scoliosis checked, and was adjusted, massaged, and given nerve blockers (suction cups with electrical pulses) and felt like a million bucks walking out. It's been a few weeks and I am starting to feel the pain again, but refuse to go back since they wanted to run a bunch of unnecessary tests to milk my insurance. Basically, it comes down to exercise, stretching and muscle relaxers in the long run anyway... |
| HAd lower back pain some 5+ years ago that was excrutiating.Went to chiro.Made me watch some "indoctrination" film, (chiro is for everyone.Even infants) then took xrays.( Never noticed a congenital spinal problem I have)They called me to the front desk,and told me I'd need at least 20 visits to get "better".This was BEFORE the doctor had even talked to the about me.I literally walked from the examinatiion room to the front desk-"Doc" was still in the room.How the hell did they know? Clairvoyant? Since this was mid December,I told them I was losing my job/insurance on Jan 1.Suddenly,they could fix me quick! I did feel better immediately after adjustments,but much worse a few hours later.My sister had an ancient chiro who told her if he couldn't fix it in a visit or two,was no use in coming back.Unfortuntley,he retired.No more for me,thanks.Dave |
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I think it's a lot of BS. That said I go to one regularly. I have an old severe neck injury and it seems to be the only thing that's helped. I have to hear some wellness BS somethimes but I igore it or make some kind of smartass comment to indicate I don't want to hear it. Sometime I think of not going but that would be like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. My neighbor went to the same one for over a year because she was afraid of having neck surgery, we are both in the health care field and have seen more bad outcomes from that than good. The one I go to has some exercize machines, including a neck one that has really helped me, and some traction devices,which has really helped me as well. I'm pushin' 50 and my posture was getting pretty bad. I had limited neck movement since I had my bike wreck, over 20 years ago. That's a long time for a stiff neck. A couple years ago when I had a bad flare up I had gone to physical therepy. The chiro does a lot of the same stuff. I went to him about the same time but couldn't get over the snake oil sales pitch. A year later my neighbor is doing much better so I decide to give it another try. I have mixed feelings. It seems to work for me. I think it stretches capsules and disks that had gotten stiff. Spine flexability is a good thing. Most folks probably don't need it. |
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Here's a little thought experiment. Take 200 people, fit and healthy with no current problems. Send 100 to random doctors, complaining of a slight twinge in the back - with vaguely described symptoms. Say that they just "wanted to check" if anything was wrong. Send 100 to random chiropractors, complaining of a lsight twinge in the back - with vaguely described symptoms. Say that they just "wanted to check" if anything was wrong. The measure of whether or not chiropractors are quacks and frauds, would be whether or not there is a difference (and how big that difference is) between the number of chiropractors that tell the patient that something is wrong, and they will definitely need treatment, versus the number of doctors that do the same thing. (I have a pretty good idea that I can predict the results )That would be a fun study. If I get tenure (and someone reminds me), I'll totally do it. 
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The problem with the underlying assumption is that unlike pharmaceutical or surgical treatment, the downside risk of chiropractic treatment is tiny, so there is little reason not to offer palliative treatment if a patient has a complaint. Furthermore, a study was done where MDs were were given spinal MRIs of symptomatic and asymptomatic patients. Because of natural (and nearly universal) degenerative changes visible on the MRIs, the MDs were about as likely to recommend surgical intervention on the asymptomatic cases as on the ones where the patients were actually suffering. If "it" is chiropractors, it isn't just chiropractors. |
The same is true of dentists. Both groups are targeted by Scientology through "management tech" programs such as (IIRC) Sterling Management. Both groups are regarded as fat targets because their incomes and the type of education they've typically received (before professional training) make them realtively easy and worthwhile victims. |