[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Bravo Two Zero.... (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 5/15/2005 3:43:57 AM EDT
I just saw the movie on late night T.V. and was wondering if anybody read the book? I saw the movie a few years back and it's a little low budget but all in all a very powerfull story. Also does anyone know what Andy Mcnab is up to latley? Private contractor or still an advisor for Hollywierd? Thanks guys
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I gave my grandpa The One that got away by Chris Ryan, who was also on that trip. Grandpa is a former captain and was in The Black Watch and the Parachute Regiment. He is really pissed off at what their officers let them do and their poor planning etc. He wouldnt have even let the operation go ahead. He didnt think highly of anyone in the book..."a bunch of bloody boy scouts" |
Tell your Grandfather thankyou. I heard of his unit in a read somewhere. BadAss unit. First off I think 219 pound "Bergen" is a bit much for a hump like that. Second, they had little intel going in so major problems start right there. I guess you can think of this mission as a compete failure. |
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Grandpa wrote on a piece of paper the "7 P's", which were drilled into them at the Parachute Regiment training thingy. Prior Preperation and Planning Prevents Piss Poor someting that I forgot I was supposed to read the book and keep the 7 P's in my mind while I read it but I forgot the last P |
Sounds similar to my brothers words of wisdom (U.S. NAVY S.E.A.L.) "Fail to plan, plan to fail." |
That would be performance. |
I'll come back to this thread later and say a few things… ANdy |
Wait...............bu.............but...............wait........um....oh come on, are you Andy Mc....ah I guess I have to wait 
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No, but I know a few people who do… ANdy |
Amazon Search - Andy McNab |
I don't know what to say.  For years I heard the stories, seen the movie, and read history about the Regiment. Would it be so much to ask if I could just talk to the man!!!!
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Well, 'McNab' and B20…… What's the take on him? Most operators here in the .Mil think he is a cunt. His book is pretty much fantasy, a good read and real 'hero' stuff, but no one believed him when he got back. Ryans book is pretty fanciful as well, there is not much in it between them. 'Soldier 5' by Mike Coburn is the least innaccurate of the books, (although there is dispute with his take at what went on at HQ), but he has not been blackballed by the Regiment, so people must be fairly happy with his side of events. 'McNab' fucked up and then blamed everyone else but himself… if the mission plan was not doable due to a lack of equipment and intel then he should have said so and resigned the mission, but no, he had his 'Rambo' head on. Going in without the Landrovers was totally fucking stupid, all the other teams went with wheels, all the other teams did OK. Blaming dead men for the failure of the mission is beneath contempt. When they were compromised they should have slotted the kid and evaded south as per SOP. Messages did get picked up on the CSAR net and they were being searched for along their expected evasion route but they were running off in the wrong direction. That said however, De La Billiere was a bit lacking too. Having convinced Schwartzkoff to use the SAS, (and De La Billiere was ex-SAS), he was not too keen to ask the US to get one of his patrols out when it was in the shit and assumed it could extract itself, unfortunately, he assumed it was a mobile patrol, not a foot patrol, fog of war again. So, read B20 as a good fiction novel, but don't assume it is the 'real deal'… His books have done the SAS a world of no good and they are looked down on now by the rest of the forces thanks to all that shiny publicity. That's a shame because the SAS are very good, not the best , but definately in the Premier League. The real operators are the SBS, and they don't do books. ANdy |
Well...Bob's your uncle!  
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I remember reading that book and being amazed at some of their preparations, or lack thereof. Making "claymores" out of ice cream boxes. Not carrying at least one suppressed weapon. No cold weather gear. Bad commo procedures. An uncertain E&E plan. Carrying an amount of gear that required ferrying supplies between hide sites, when they clearly should have used vehicles. The whole operation seemed to be thrown together and ill-equipped, with a hint of desperation even at the beginning. I think they made their own bed and then had to lie in it. I'd say the fact that any of them survived at all is pretty amazing. |
He was OK before the op… good record, not outstanding… the 'big show' of GW1 gave him the opportunity to shine or screw up… he got first night nerves when he was put in the spotlight, he wouldn't take advice when he was the 'star turn'. Often turns out that way, the poor peacetime soldier becomes a great one in the heat of battle, and the ones you expect to do good sometimes fall apart when it's played for real. ANdy |
Interesting...thanks. |
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Vito how about posting some varifiable creds. or some resource to make sure you are on the level. I'm not asking you to reveal yourself,opsec and all that. I'm sure you can understand, thanks a bunch. BTW, I also found some aspects of the movie to be embellishments but I was'nt there, but a 219lb. pack (Bergan) come on......
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WOW...Just WOW! Here I am thinking this man is a national treasure and it turns out not so When my brother was in the NAVY, he did meet and train with S.A.S. and S.B.S. operators and spoke very highly of these incredible men. Ever since high school I had an interest in the Spec-Ops community and did a good amount of research on the S.A.S. Once I heard of B2Z, I never really questioned this mission. Guess I have to do a little more research next time
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Its a movie gents, certain creative freedom goes into making one, with that said I've never read or heard anything remotely close to what vito113 has posted. I am lucky enough to call Bill Guarnere( Band of brothers) a friend and he has told me some "extra bravery" was added to certain scenes. While other engagements were ignored. He still says it very accurate to his memory. You could be in the same firefight with with your squad and ten minutes later every Marine will have a different story (nuances) as to what happened. |
Please tell Mr. Guarnere...........THANK YOU!!!! |
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Thanks Andy for your post. I have spoke with Brit military guys about this but I'm no reporter and dont write shit down. I have no records, just recollections of my conversations and your post refreshes the memory I have of them. To a man, no one thought highly of him.
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If I did I would go to jail, no shit, name a name and you go to jail here under the Official Secrets Act. however I am UK .Mil and a few people here can vouch for that. Check your IM tonight. Bergans usually top out at 85-100lbs… ish. ANdy |
With ordinary people and soldiers, yeah obviously. But the SAS has a reputation that made the scene portrayed believable. If you have to bet between what the SAS can and can't do, I think it's safer to bet on them instead of against them. |
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IIRC, Vito is Royal Navy. Could be wrong, but he's posted enough here to verify his "street cred". Also IIRC, he posted about the Iranians seizing some British sailors before it hit the newswires. |
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Just tying to keep over watch, for lack of of a better term. Andy, the im is crap try; [email protected] Not trying to bust balls but...Would like the feed back. You seem to have more S2 than most. I can varify/validate with PERSEC. being a priority. Thanks |
| I recently saw a Documentry on it, and it said that when they radioed, Hereford, some of the messages got to here but they did not get responded to. The impression I got from the Documentry was, First the guys were sent in with crappy gear. The British did not want to Show the US they could not get the job done, so they went in. Then the British did not want the US to have to bail out thier elite group. I dont blame the guys or point any fingures, I was not there and I will not monday mourning quater back it. I think the guys got the raw end of the deal. |
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When I saw the movie I thought what the POWs were subjected to was reason enough to go back and finish the job, regardless of speculation on WMDs. Kind of like wanting to go Rick James on the guy in Three Kings who was asking, "What is Michael Jackson's problem." I think it is a sad disservice when one embellishes military accounts for personal gain. As for what to do when things go south, I've never been in direct combat like that , but there were a number of times when one of my guys screwed up and I went to the boss taking the accountability that goes with authority. Straightening out the subordinate was strictly between me & him, and problems between my flight and the boss rested on my shoulders. I was responsible. |
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Andy's take is prety accurate from what I've heard from other (non SF) military sources, they mostly seem to have a downer on McNabb, although I thought that Ryan's version was more accurate. Haven't read either though. Remind me; why wasn't writing those books covered under the Official Secrets act though, there seemed to be a sudden surge of those books, then they stopped again, one assumes the Regiment changed the piece of paper you signed to ensure no more memoirs would make it out. /PHil |
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I'm curios as to one thing, maybe somebody has some info on this. I read both books (McNab's & Ryan's) and saw a Discovery Channel production on the mission - complete with interviews and re-enactments (feel the sarcasm about the re-enactments). From these sources, I got from reading between the lines, that there is some distinct animosity between McNab and Ryan. Am I reading that correctly? If so, what's up? Just wondering out loud... |
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Does McNabb get a bit of the Richard Marcinko treatment from some? The fact that they have told secrets of the fraternity make some mad because what is done here stays here. We never, with a few exceptions, never used to see the "tell all" type books until after Viet Nam. I guess the money for writing these books is just too great to pass up. One of the things that stood out in my mind from the book was their desire for American Mre's and the big spoon that came in them. That struck me as funny for some reason. |
Yes and yes… ANdy |
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I see some people here are having a difficulty considering the premise that 'McNab' and co may have been 'economical' with the truth or exagerated their own exploits for literary gain… However, just because they are ex SAS does not mean they are infallible fountains of truth as this incident involving a serving senior SAS sergeant-major reveals, even active serving soldiers can get it wrong. ANdy The initial story as reported in the Telegraph newspaper… Shake-up in Special Boat Service over claims it 'panicked and fled' in Iraq 26 Jul 04 Daily Telegraph (London) The Special Boat Service faces substantial restructuring after criticism of its performance in Iraq, with one senior SAS soldier refusing to work with the unit again because its members were "unprofessional". The Army has transferred a number of instructors from the SAS headquarters in Hereford to the SBS to improve its fighting skills and abilities at operating behind enemy lines. An Iraqi on a bike claimed to have been captured from British troops While the SBS is expert at operations at sea or close to the shore, there have been mutterings that it runs into problems in land patrols. For the past decade sailors and marines wishing to enter the elite unit have had to pass the tough Special Air Service selection course but do not go on to the even more challenging "continuation" course in the jungle. Instead they become highly trained in covert insertion by water, securing beachheads and protecting oil rigs and in specialised counter-terrorism to protect shipping. Both units come under the control of the Director of Special Forces, an Army brigadier, with the SBS being deployed alongside its SAS colleagues on land since the mid-1990s. This, according to several SAS sources, has led to problems that culminated in a debacle last April during the Iraq war in which the Iraqi Republican Guard compromised an SBS patrol. "For the first time, they came under effective enemy fire," said a military source. "People were not impressed with their reactions. They were not at all impressed by them leaving behind their Land Rovers and kit." According to one report, the soldiers failed to return fire and abandoned expensive equipment including their prized "Pinky" Land Rovers which were captured by the Iraqis and gleefully paraded on Arab television, much to the disgust of the SAS. Two of the 10-man patrol had to march into Syria after missing a pick-up by Chinook helicopter at the emergency rendezvous. "They cocked it up, panicked and did a runner," said an SAS man. "In that situation you are supposed to do a tactical withdrawal." A senior NCO in the SAS was so unimpressed by his SBS colleagues that he has refused to serve with them in future operations because of their alleged lack of professionalism. The comments were made earlier this year at the annual special forces debrief when all the troops make suggestions or criticisms of performances on operations. "He stood up and said we will never work with these people again - they are totally unprofessional," said a former SAS soldier who served for nine years in the regiment. "When an SBS representative gave their version of events in Iraq, it was interpreted as a crock of s***." Senior military planners have now ordered a shake-up of the SBS. An Army source said: "They are going to be 'infiltrated' by Hereford to brush up on their skills, especially in close-quarter combat. "They are far too specialised. They are great at infiltrating from water on to land but after that it gets a bit problematic." Rivalry between the regiments developed when the SAS believed that the SBS, nicknamed the Shaky Boats, were intruding on its remit. It is thought that the SBS has been lobbying to be granted a "30km insertion capability" that would give it access to highly sophisticated equipment. It was also said to be after the SAS's jealously guarded "team tasks" in which they go abroad to train foreign special forces. A former SAS soldier said: "They are expert at water ops but there is a substantial difference between land soldiering and swimming. We don't class them as soldiers, more as sailors. The SBS would hit the beach and secure it so we could go through to the business on land. "They are like a fish out of water on land, if you'll excuse the pun. It's a different mentality. We carry everything everywhere we go; all they do is swim." It is also believed that the SBS lacks the "close-quarter combat" experience of the SAS because it has had little experience of combat operations over the past decade. "A lot of the regiment has seen a lot of action, with the SAS or with their own battalions, but this is sometimes not the case with the Shakies," said the SAS soldier. It has been discussed that the regiments should be amalgamated but this has been vigorously opposed by both sides. A special forces unit is to be formed specifically to infiltrate Islamic terrorist groups. Working closely with both the SAS and SBS, it will penetrate and gather intelligence on al-Qa'eda activists and supporters. It will draw on expertise developed by the Joint Communications Unit Northern Ireland in combating the IRA. However, when HQ found out the SHTF and the totally different truth came out and he withdrew his claims… End your rift, SAS and SBS are told August 07, 2004 Daily Telegraph (London) By Sean Rayment Defence Correspondent The head of Britain's Special Forces has ordered the commanders of the SAS and SBS to end a rift that threatens to undermine the elite units. The Director of Special Forces, an Army brigadier, is said to have been infuriated by a newspaper report in which a former member of the Special Air Service suggested that Special Boat Service troops were incompetent and lacked courage. The brigadier, who cannot be identified for security reasons, immediately ordered the SAS's base in Hereford to investigate the events which led to the publication of the article and identify those responsible for the allegations. Senior officers in both organisations were said to have been stunned by the claims, which they described as "malicious lies". The report said that the SBS, which is based at Hamworthy Barracks in Poole, Dorset, faced "substantial restructuring" after intense criticism of its performance in Iraq. Most damningly, it alleged that lack of professionalism within the SBS was such that one serving SAS soldier refused to serve with them on future operations. It said that although the SBS - which has the motto By Strength and Guile - was highly trained in covert insertion by water, securing beacheads, protecting oil rigs and maritime counter-terrorism, the unit's experience in land-based operations was limited. Crucially the anonymous SAS member used as the source of the story also claimed that SBS volunteers did not take part in jungle training - the most arduous part of Special Forces selection. In fact, all SAS and SBS volunteers must pass this to join either regiment. The report added that the SBS's inexperience culminated in a bungled operation in the Iraqi western desert in March 2003 when a 40-man SBS squadron was ambushed by a unit of 300 from the Republican Guard. It quoted a former member of the SAS as saying: "They [the SBS troops] cocked it up, panicked and did a runner. For the first time they came under effective enemy fire. People were not impressed with their reactions." The article said that SBS troops failed to return fire and abandoned expensive equipment, including their "Pinky Land Rovers" which were paraded on Iraqi television. Officially, the SBS refused to comment on the accusations, but The Telegraph has been contacted by former members of the unit and by senior Ministry of Defence officials who have given an alternative account. They have also questioned the accuracy of other claims in the article. A senior MoD official said: "The Director of Special Forces has made clear to the commanders of both services that accusations of cowardice will not be tolerated and that anyone attempting to discredit either the SAS or SBS - which were both formed in 1941 - only succeeds in discrediting the whole of the Special Forces Group." A former SBS member said: "The SBS was on an operation to hunt down members of the Fedayeen [Saddam's paramilitary force], but was double-crossed by Iraqi interpreters who were working as spies. They led the SBS unit into an ambush. But far from running, the SBS squadron became engaged in a six-hour fighting withdrawal in which more than 7,000 rounds were fired. "They suffered only one casualty, who received minor shrapnel wounds, even though they faced a force of 300 Iraqi Republican Guards armed with mortars and heavy machineguns. That contact is now officially recognised as the most ferocious Special Forces engagement of the war. The squadron commander, who was an SAS officer on secondment to the SBS, was sacked because, ultimately, someone must be blamed for the failure." He went on: "It is galling to read that we are a bunch of incompetent cowards who have never been in action before. The SBS has spent more time on operations in Afghanistan than the SAS. An SBS trooper was awarded the George Medal for rescuing a US crewman from a Hercules transport aircraft which had crashed after refuelling, and two others were awarded the Conspicuous Gallantry Cross for rescuing a CIA agent from Taliban. "We have been involved in operations around the world including East Timor in 1999 and in Sierra Leone where they made up a third of the Special Forces unit which rescued British hostages in 2000." The SBS was awarded 24 awards and commendations for its involvement in the Afghanistan war and has so far been awarded 16 for service in Iraq. The Telegraph can reveal that the soldier who refused to work with the SBS was one of the SAS's most experienced sergeant-majors. He made his forthright comments during a briefing by senior members of the SBS to their SAS counterparts. A few weeks later, he was attached to the SBS's M squadron for the duration of an operation and later made a full and public apology to the unit, admitting that his comments about the SBS were "out of order" and that he was "speaking rubbish". According to serving and former members of both elite groups an intense but professional rivalry has always existed between them. In recent months, however, there has been a growing sense of irritation within the SBS that many of their operations are reported as being carried out by the SAS. The SBS, which recently had a new cap badge approved by the Queen, tends to recruit from the Royal Marines, who make up 41 per cent of Britain's Special Forces. The SAS is mainly composed of infantry soldiers. The Director of Special Forces has served as a captain with the SAS and a major with the SBS and has sought to encourage greater "cross-fertilisation" between the two units. |