[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The Resurrection (Page 1 of 5)
Posted: 2/23/2005 6:36:16 AM EDT
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Many of the discussions here on Christianity come around to demands for evidence backing the validity of the faith. Since we don’t have a time machine to go back to first century Judea, we must work with the evidence at hand. This ranges from personal testimony of Christians today (admittedly subjective) regarding personal experiences, to the historical and Biblical record. The key event in the history of the Christian faith is the resurrection. That is, after being tortured, crucified, and buried, Jesus was raised from the dead by the power of God. After all, what good is a dead messiah? People have made a number of outrageous claims over the centuries regarding spiritual matters, but Jesus backed up His words with action. The biblical account states that Jesus of Nazareth was crucified, dead and buried. On the third day he rose. This resurrection proved that He was who He claimed to be, that He had power over death, and that death is not the end. There have been many attempts to discredit the resurrection, but none of them have any credibility when critically examined. The only conclusion left is that this event occurred as told in the Bible. The hook has been baited... 
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And bitten... So, what you are purposing is similar to the fight against any scientific explanation of the universe. That is, because documented alternatives for how the body disappeared are not to your liking, the resurrection ideal HAS to be correct. By this logic, OJ should continue looking for the killers as he is obviously innocent as the proof of his guilt wasn't complete and therefore his explainations have to be deemed the most credible source available as he cannot be proven wrong at this point. |
The body didn't just disappear. People who knew Jesus saw him walking around after the resurrection. The testimony doesn't end with the empty tomb; it goes on to include any number of conversations, shared dinners, and visits. There is the additional problem of explaining why, given what we know of human nature, anyone would persist in making false claims about the resurrection when (1) they knew the claims to be false and (2) the rewards for spreading the falsehood ranged from ostracism to gruesome and painful death. Unlike OJ, who profited by denying that he was the killer (he avoided imprisonment and/or execution), the people who claimed to have been witnesses to Jesus' death and resurrection could expect only misery in return for their testimony. The witnesses could not have expected to become wealthy, popular, or powerful by saying what they said, but only to suffer in this life. People lie to help themselves, not to hurt themselves. The secular law of evidence recognizes that fact, allowing hearsay statements against the declarant's interest to be received in evidence. |
'bout 30 last weekend at the bar. He still owes me a shot. We got him so drunk he puked all over the ladies room. |
Somehow I knew you'd join the fray! 
Actually, it was a call for alternative explanations (the disciples stealing His body, etc.) that we could analyze using logic and reason.
Well, the Juice has scoured quite a few golf courses in search of the real killers, all to no avail. However, what we are doing here is examining the various explanations based upon the best available evidence and reason. Reason said that O.J. was guilty, but apparently the evidence did not meet the standard of the law for a jury conviction in a criminal case. However, he did indeed lose the civil case, hence, his Heisman no longer exists. |
Well, you've sure upped the level of the discussion. 
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Well, let's look at it. 1. After His arrest and crucifixion the disciples scattered and hid, fearing they would be next. 2. Guards were posted at the tomb. 3. A stone covered the entrance to the tomb. For this theory to be true the disciples would have to brave the guards, roll away the stone without them noticing, and then make their escape. Not likely. |
That's almost exactly what I read about Hank in Cleveland! Wow, what a coincidence. That's why he must have been a god, too. |
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There will be no evidence other than word of mouth. It is all about faith. And with evidence there would be no faith. God does not want robots worshipping him. He wants people who have a choice. You see it makes it all the better when someone is not forced but chooses to worship our Lord. And for those that want evidence, He gave it to you, he walked the earth 3,000 years ago. It may not have been while you were alive but many people were alive then and saw him and spoke with him. How many more times are needed before you will believe? 
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Ok, but the guards let Jesus roll the stone away and stroll off? Or did the Angel of Heaven paralyzed the guards with a mystery ray? |
Would you be willing to face death rather than admit you made that up? If the resurrection was a myth, the disciples would have known it. Who would die for a lie??? When the Romans told Peter they were going to crucify him, he told them to crucify him uspide-down, because he was not worthy to die as his Master. That was the act of a man who Knew. He had seen the resurrected Jesus and interacted with Him. If it was a hoax he would not have been so sure when facing a horrible death. WOuld you be so willing to die for your hank story? |
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Good Grief! Can we please give these religious threads a rest? I won't be participating in this one, at all, although this subject is near and dear to my heart. Maybe if there was a week or so between such threads, but this is why I go to Church...on a weekly, not a daily basis. Eric The(GottaRun)Hun 
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According to the biblical account, the guards fainted and an angel moved the stone. There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men. (Matthew 28:2-4) |
I just didn't want to hijack one of the other threads. Go take a break, Eric. You've earned it. |
People have died for false causes. Just look at suicide cults. |
I know what the book says, Brohawk. (I didn't pull the angel of heaven and mystery ray out of thin air) I though we were trying to use logic in this thread? |
The difference is that in those cases the people believed the lie to be true. If Peter was part of a conspiracy to steal the body he would have known that the resurrection did not happen. However, his actions prove that he knew what he had witnessed. He knew that Jesus told the Truth. It wasn't hearsay or rumor for him. |
I did not say that he stole the body. He may have believed that Jesus was the son of god. Remember the gospels were written many years ago and weren't first hand accounts. |
By your rules I can't reference this account? I say it's my thread and I can use whatever sources I want! As can you! Have you offered a viable alternative theory? Or are you just going to pooh-pooh the idea of angels as heavenly messengers? |
Did you just dive in here without reading the previous page? There's a continuity to this line of reasoning.
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I will give you an alternative theory. Jesus was a carpenter with crazy ideas. He was crucified because of those ideas. His disciples thought he was the son of god. They went around and spread his ideas. Eventually Someone wrote down his ideas with a few liberties. This gospel eventually went through a couple variations. Eventually the Romans decided that having Christianity as a state religion would help them cement their power over the populace. They then wrote the new testament to suit their purpose. |
I am sure if we started a thread questioning the beliefs of muslims it would be perfectly fine. I would even help you guys. I have not called christians any names or bashed them in any way. I am just questioning what you believe. |
  
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You would probably get much more decent answers than some of those posted here and in other threads by those who not only don't believe in Christianity, but revile it.
Maybe not here, but you are always quick with the jabbing, slicing comment. You don't believe because you simply don't want to, and you hold those who do in contempt, and you're not alone. |
I rest my case...... 
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You can reference that account all you want. Have you actually seen angels before? |
It's a pretty stupid friggin' discussion to begin with. For one thing, we have a small localized event with documentation from really one source. That's not a whole lot to go off of. Second of all, if you need to "prove" the resurrection in a historical context, or hold the true cross, or see the ark in order to "believe", then, imo, you don't exactly have "faith" in it. In effect, your demanding to stick your fingers in Jesus' side, no matter if you believe in him or not. I'm a Christian. I go to Church. I don't need to prove a goddamn thing to anybody or anyone to believe in my faith. |
Homework assignment: Read the Trilemma essay by C.S. Lewis, then get back to me on this.
No, it was because of His claim to be the Son of God.
They started out believing it, and ended up knowing it.
They sure did, and we still do.
Eyewitness accounts. There are now known extant MSS dating from the first century AD. There is a shorter gap between the events of the Gospels and their writing than many other ancient texts, such as Ceasar's Gallic Wars. It is telling that this "gap" theory that is used to discredit the Gospels is not also applied to other ancient writings. Hmm...
Actually, the manuscript evidence shows attention to detail in the copying of the manuscripts. The newer copies are virtually identical to the oldest ones.
I'm assuming you're referring to Constantine's blending of Christianity and paganism. This has little to do with original Christianity. BTW, my personal study is geared toward stripping away the things that have been added and getting as close as I can to a First Century kid of Christianity.
They were written long before the fourth century when Constantine did his thing. |
I wanted to believe in Jesus a long time ago. I wanted to believe so bad that I cried about it. I never could. I tried to give my life to him. I prayed as hard as anyone else, but I could never truly believe. Then I decided I couldn't take it anymore. So I took an honest look at religion for the first time in my life. It was then I realized that without solid proof I had no reason to believe. If I am wrong I will suffer in hell. I can deal with that. |
Basic apologetics. The Bible says to be ready to give an explanation of why you believe.
The resurrection was a "small" event? Not to me! And there were hundreds of witnesses.
Remind me- I don't have time to go back through your posts in various threads. Were you one of the folks who was criticizing people who have blind faith? The way I see it, my head and heart were made to work together. When they are in disagreement there is tension. When we can resolve the intellect (knowledge) and the heart (faith) everything works as it was designed. I have to go. I'll be back later... |
Do you honestly believe that being a Christian requires complete and unwavering belief in matters of faith? WWell, if that's true, then you and I will burn together. You bring the chips, I'll bring the beer. I have my doubts, but I swallow them and CHOOSE to believe, despite the logic, despite the gaps. I do so because believing has brought me more than not doing so. It's not just a matter of "feeling good". I have SEEN the direct results of my beliefs in occurrances in my life which go beyond coincidence. In fact, I no longer believe in coincidence. The important thing isn't so much BELIEVING, it's WANTING to believe. If you truly seek, you will find the answers. The thing is, the answers are not necessarily mathematical or scientific. So, if you wanted to believe that bad, go back and look again, then be patient. It doesn't happen on your time schedule, it happens on His. Took me YEARS in my case, and a complete surrender to His will in a moment of total dispair. Best of luck, and I sincerely mean that. |
There you go again, equating a myth with a lie. since good ole JW77 didn't want to answer this question, maybe you will. It's really easy. What is a metaphor and can you provide and example of one? If your faith rests entirely on the historocity of this event, then I pity you. It rests on very shaky ground. I've said before and I'll say again... It doesn't matter whether it happened or not. The point remains the same. If the orthodox, literal interpretaion of these "events" made any real sense, there would be no atheists. There would be nothing with which to argue. |
I was really hoping for more, Eric! |