[ARCHIVED THREAD] - del please (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 2/15/2005 4:59:06 PM EDT
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I have been wanting to join the military since I was 18 but decided to become a surgeon instead. I have one more year in my training and was thinking about joining the Navy, Airforce or Army. Most likely, I would join the Navy. Its really not about the pay which cant compare to private money but about the people Im treating and a military life - no malpractice, office expenses and a much better patient population IMHO. I know that the military is in great need of physicians, especially surgeons but I have a few concerns which are preventing me from joining. The most important one is my wife and kids. I do not want to drag them around the world or be away for too long of a time. I already have little time spent with my children due to the demanding schedule of a surgeon in training. If they guaranteed me a state-side post I would consider it greatly but doubt they would. I would love to hook up with a special forces team as a support team member, but dont think it would happen either. I also do not want to join the reserves because if I dont like the way Im being treated I can resign in 3 years. In search of my interest in becoming a military physician I have spoken to 3 surgeons with experience in the military and they are all advising me not to join for several reasons. One of which is the ability of the military to completely control your life with little consideration of your family concerns. Others include money and the fact that you can die. Leaving your kids fatherless was a big down side. Also, if I do leave the military after a few years they can always call me back in to service at any time. This wouldnt be so good especially if I just spent many years building up a practice only to lose it after being called back. The military needs me a great deal more then I need the military and it doesnt seam like physicians are treated well by the military. For these reasons I havent joined. I guess Im telling the ARF community because I value your oppinions and know that many here have experience in the military. PS. I met a vet who served in WW2, Korea and Viet Nam. I found out that he was in the military because of his insurance. Anyway I was taking care of his wife who came into the ER. He told me that he was in the intelligence business. He was very respectful like most military people and officers are. I felt that it was my duty to treat him as VIP for the sacrifices he made for this country over the past few decades. It would be an honor to treat great Americans like him, but not at the expense of my family. |
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"The military needs me a great deal more then I need the military and it doesnt seem like physicians are treated well by the military." Lets see, there are huge incentives: You'll be an officer, they are offering something like $50,000 for professionals like yourself for school loan payback. Now all they downsides you listed is that they actually want you to be in the military and act like it. They acknowledge the skills you bring but it will not entitle you to special treatment, you serve them not vice versa. Military guys and girls move when and where they are told to. No, you get no guarantees on stations, placement or danger. Anything guaranteed is subject to change... If you are interested in doing it simply as a job, then I would advise against it. It is a way of life and you and your family are subject to the whims of the service. In the end, you are part of a support structure that is designed to support the guys who make war. In your case I would especially not join the navy. You could be subject to being stationed on a ship and be at sea for a year or 18 months. The army or airforce might offer a more stable life and allow you to keep the family close even if stationed overseas. None of this was meant to be negative, but I have served in 2 braches of the military and can tell you first hand that it is hard on family life. If you decide to go for it, then you will be accepted as a brother, promised 3 hots and a cot and a regular paycheck. As an officer you don't take the same vow of poverty that us enlisted guys do but you won't be living the nip/tuck lifestyle either. It may be the most rewarding thing you ever do. You may meet other Doc's and decide to open a practice with them, you'll definately be busy. You'll also have some very good clients, when you tell them to take doctors advice, they have to  I hope you go for it, but talk to the wife. I also suggest that you take some time and talk to military docs who are still in. Good luck. |
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In my opinion if you have to ask whether or not, you might not be ready for service to this country. A commitment like that should truly come very easy without any reservations. If you decide to enlist just remember that you will walk in the footsteps of some of the greatest men and women to have ever worn the uniform of the United States Armed Forces. "I DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR (OR AFFIRM) THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC; THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; AND THAT I WILL OBEY THE ORDERS OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE ORDERS OF THE OFFICERS APPOINTED OVER ME, ACCORDING TO REGULATIONS AND THE UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE. SO HELP ME GOD." This oath is the foundation of what is expected of you. Seek growth of character not a free ride or tuition. |
Well said.
You've never been in the Navy have you? The Navy makes 6 month deployments on ships and only the largest, ie carriers and big deck amphibs, have surgeons. You're more likely to make a deployment to Kuwait or Iraq for 6 months to a year, just like AF and Army docs are doing. |
I meant the 18 months as over an 6-8 year enlistment(officer commitment), time at sea, vs being stationed OCONUS and possibly being able to take a family. Correct, no Navy and I wasn't knocking it. I can tell all the interservice jokes needed but love them all, even did time on 4 seperate ships. I did not assume he would automatically be a surgeon either. "Hello Doctor" could be the welcome he gets on any Ship the Navy sends him to. He could end up in San Diego at the Naval Hospital for an entire career and the wife could love him or he could leave for 6 months every 18 months and have the wife hate him(or love it). Just don't want anyone to be blind to all sides. Same reason I said he should speak to active docs, the docs who are out now told him not to do it, maybe there is a reason they are out. A lot of guys who hate the service, weren't good at it and assume it will be a bad experience for everyone. I love it, did 8 years active USMC, got out for 8 years and signed back up in the Guard, will deploy this year. |
That's cool. Just the way I read it, I thought you meant he would be at sea for 12 to 18 months straight. The Navy doesn't have docs on any ship. Just the ones with hospital beds. I don't recall any of the three cruisers I was deployed with having a doc onboard. The Brits and the Aussies do, however. I think it's easier for them since they don't have as many ships. |
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I'm going to chime in here because I have recently given this issue much thought... while it may not help you make your decision, perhaps it will help me justify mine to both my family and myself. I apologize ahead of time for the length of this post, as I'm sure it will not be short... it is my "coming out" as very few people know of my plans... For those of you that don't know me, I'll provide a little background.... I joined the military when I was of age because I felt it was my duty, and the duty of every teenager who turns 18 in this country. Since the difficult path allows for a much more educational journey, I skipped a chance to attend West Point, and avoided ROTC altogether because I wanted to experience the military from the enlisted side before ever considering a leadership position as an officer.I did that, and eventually attended OCS years later. To keep from boring everyone, long story short I served my 6 years, and got out in 1994. In that time, I started a family, a popular web site, got a job, and made a good life for myself. Now fast forward 10 years- at 34 I began the process to re-enlist this afternoon. Not because I lost my job, my family, or experienced any other life-changing events or needed a new career. Not because I'll get a big bonus for signing up, or any other financial benefit. In fact, this decision means I may need to sell the house I live in, give up a very comfortable job and a nice salary to make a small fraction of the money I currently make. My family (ex-wife and child) may need to make sacrifices to deal with this decision and move into a smaller home or apartment. In essence, I will have to give up the life I've worked 10 years to create and I will burden many others with the consequences. So why do it? What would posses an (at least self proclaimed) intelligent person to do such a thing, particularly at a time in our history when deployment to a war is almost a certainty? My family has told me that this is a selfish decision, and that I should think of my son and not risk leaving him without a father. But it is exactly for this reason that I have decided to re-enlist. Because I do have a great life. Because this country has given me the opportunity to make the most of my life, and to be successful. I owe it to my son, and I owe it to his kids to ensure they have the same opportunities. On 9/11 our country was pushed by terrorists who crossed the line. They drew first blood, and they did it at the wrong time, and to the wrong people. A few years ago, under different leadership we might have bombed a couple of training camps to show that we would not tolerate their actions and that we had superior firepower. But not this time- this time they crossed the line and the response will be nothing less that eradicating their kind from this planet. For this reason our military men and women have given up the comforts of life in the US to take the battle to the enemy's doorstep. To hunt and kill every single terrorist they can find, and all of those who support them. Not to make a statement, nor to show our might, but to prevent them from trying that again. We are not merely going to bomb from a distance, but will go door to door, and cave to cave to find each and every one. This task is not easy, and it is not without sacrifice. A sacrifice that a few men and women have taken on, while the majority of our country continues to go on with their comfortable lives. These few who serve have made the promise to protect this country from all enemies, and they will not 'falter and [they] will not fail'. Everyone of them has a family, job, loved ones, children, spouses, and people who miss them and worry about them. Many of them have great civilian jobs, homes, hobbies, and nice salaries they've left behind. Everyone of them is making a sacrifice. The majority of our country drives around with yellow ribbons on our cars as we drink coffee and complain about the traffic on the way to work and back. While we proudly display our support for the troops overseas, put together care packages, and honor those returning home, most of us are unwilling to actually to do much more as it would mean giving up a lot. While there is certainly nothing wrong with this, I for one will not sit idly by while others risk their lives to ensure my freedom and my comfort. So if you're still reading this M4SS109, and I apologize for it's length and wordiness, the decision to join the military is not one of which is "better". No one will argue that a civilian life is a much more intelligent decision in every respect. You'll make more money, live more comfortably, be more in control of your life, be safer(?) and be able to enjoy each day much more. The decision to join the military for those that do is not something someone can talk you into- it is something they can't talk you out of. Good luck to you in your choices and congratulations on your achievements. For any others who are considering serving your country, I can promise you that while it may not be easy, serving in the military is an experience you will never forget, and you will be better for having done it. "Freedom has a special meaning to those who have fought for it that the protected will never know." - Robert F. Heinrich |
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M4SS109, with that attitude you don't want to join the Navy as a doctor. January 2005 Vol. 88, No. 1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- With fewer blue suits in the medical field, USAF can save money and increase combat power. Calculated Conversion By Tom Philpott Next Oct. 1, if all goes as planned, the Air Force will begin to execute a three-year program that will convert more than 2,000 uniformed medical jobs to federal civilian or private contract positions. The conversions, set to occur in Fiscal 2006, 2007, and 2008, are part of a Pentagon-wide “transformation” initiative that would drop from the rolls thousands of uniformed medical personnel now ensconced in base hospitals and clinics. These military members would be replaced with less expensive civilian medical staff. The goals are twofold. One is to hold down the Air Force’s rising health care costs. The second is to increase the number of uniformed combat forces by shifting precious authorized positions out of support functions and into operational functions, all without increasing USAF end strength. The Air Force estimates that its medical job shift, when fully implemented, will save the service $33 million a year, with no impact on the quality of health care or patient access to medical services. More importantly, the Air and Space Expeditionary Force will expand by some 2,000 members. Maj. David Berthe, a medical programmer for the Air Force surgeon general, said plans call for converting some five percent of the service’s nearly 40,000 uniformed medical staff jobs. The program will convert 400 jobs in Fiscal 2006 and about 800 positions in each of the next two years. The exact number of targeted positions is 2,029. Fewer Blue Suits “This should not impact our beneficiaries,” said Berthe. “What they will notice are fewer blue suits in a facility and more white collars, but the intent is a one-to-one trade-off, replacing a blue suit ... with a civilian equivalent.” The move, Berthe went on, will allow the Air Force “to restructure the force, to shift more assets from support positions—medical being considered a support position—to warfighting positions without increasing the military’s end strength.” Of the jobs slated for conversion, about 400 are positions for officers, mostly nurses. The number of Air Force uniformed physicians and dentists will not change. By contrast, the Navy expects to civilianize more than 150 family physician positions in its first round of conversions to begin next July. The 1,600 Air Force enlisted jobs targeted for conversion are engaged in a wide range of technical specialties, supporting pharmacies, dental clinics, optometry, diet therapy, and medical laboratories. No involuntary separations from service will occur, said Berthe. “Normal attrition over the various career fields will enable us to accommodate these” conversions, he said. The medical staff shifts result from a joint service study ordered by the Defense Department’s director of program analysis and evaluation. In a series of weekly meetings that kicked off last February, service medical staffs and PA&E officials reviewed which medical billets had no readiness mission and therefore could be performed by civilians. The Navy identified 5,400 positions out of 41,000 military medical personnel. Its conversions are scheduled to run through 2011. To cover the last three months of Fiscal 2005, the Navy requested $35.8 million to add 1,772 civilian medical workers to its payroll. That’s an average cost of $20,000 per new employee for the July-through-September quarter, or about $80,000 per position annually. Details of the Army’s military-to-civilian conversion initiative were not available. Virginia Stephanakis, spokeswoman for Army Medical Command, said it, too, will free up more military jobs for warfighting units without degrading quality of care or access to care at home. “Generally, we will recommend for conversion only those military positions that allow us to meet these goals and for which the civilian market has available [and] affordable replacements,” said Stephanakis. Lt. Cmdr. Tim Weber, head of manpower operations for the Navy’s Bureau of Medicine, agreed that any decision to convert a medical billet must depend on the availability of a qualified and affordable replacement. Conversion—Not a Cut “We are absolutely not changing the quality of care,” said Weber. “We are solely changing the color of the uniform. This is a conversion; this is not a cut.” The medical job conversions are only part of a larger Defense Department effort to civilianize as many military billets as possible, both to hold down personnel costs and to make more effective use of uniformed personnel. During 2004 and 2005 combined, officials said, DOD-wide conversions would total about 20,000. In October, David S.C. Chu, the undersecretary of defense for personnel and readiness, told the annual meeting of the Association of the United States Army that “a significant degree of rebalancing is necessary” across the Pentagon’s entire workforce of 2.7 million active and reserve members, 650,000 federal civilians, and 96,000 nonappropriated fund employees. DOD wants to convert up to 300,000 military billets to civilian positions, Chu said. The Pentagon is evaluating whether it can and should do so. The conversion process will be helped, Chu suggested, by Congressional approval last year of the National Security Personnel System, the Bush Administration initiative to overhaul the way civilian personnel are managed. The department will be able to shape a “more responsive and flexible” workforce, Chu said, using new tools to hire, reward, and fire employees. The revised pay system will emphasize performance over longevity. Regulations are being drafted, Chu advised, and the NSPS should be implemented in full by 2008. The medical job conversions, Weber said, will give commands an opportunity to reorganize and to become more efficient. For example, he said, a hospital that has 10 enlisted administrative positions marked for conversion may decide to hire only five civilian replacements but also three transcription specialists who could lighten the paperwork load on all of its physicians. Decisions about whether uniformed medical members should be replaced by federal civilians or contract employees will be made by regional Air Force commanders, Berthe said. The deliberate pace of the conversions—2,000 over three years—should allow time “to implement this in a smart fashion,” he said, “so we take into consideration local job markets and ... don’t in any way hamper access to care for the beneficiaries.” In deciding what jobs to convert, Berthe said, officials took account of rotation requirements. More jobs could be filled by civilians, but there must be some nonreadiness slots for uniformed personnel to return to after particularly high-stress front-line operational tours. “We strictly focused our analysis on those billets that were over and above that readiness requirement,” he said. Replacing military personnel with civilians saves money, Berthe said, because civilian hires don’t need to be trained in their health care specialties. Also, civilian employees cover more of the cost of their retirement, health care, and other benefits. “We expect to be able to hire a diet therapy technician far less expensively than we could bring one into the Air Force, put him or her in a blue suit, insure him or her with the Tricare health care benefit, and then, if the person were to stay 20 years, pay that retirement annuity,” Berthe said. Physicians Untouched The Air Force decided it would not be cost-effective, however, to convert any physician or dentist positions, he said, because they “are so incredibly expensive to contract for, or even to hire as General Schedule government employees.” Though the Navy will convert 13 percent of its military medical jobs—more than two-and-a-half times what the Air Force plans to convert—Berthe dismissed the notion that his service was less aggressive in carrying out the DOD mandate. “The services came in having already defined what we knew we needed to meet our readiness requirement,” he said. “This study just looked at the difference between what we know we needed for that readiness platform and what we had in the inventory.” That the Navy is converting more jobs than the Air Force, he said, “simply means ... they had more in their inventory” in excess of readiness requirements. Besides saving tax dollars, medical job conversions could improve patient access to care, Berthe suggested. He noted how military personnel get tapped on occasion for special details, readiness training, or deployments that take them away from hospitals and clinics. Civilian medical personnel don’t face those types of collateral duties. Nor are they ordered every few years to leave jobs they know well in order to take on new assignments. The Air Force is committed to protecting patient services, Berthe said, while “sort of recoloring the uniforms.” |
I'm retired from the USAF. From my experience, the Air Force is the most family-focused branch. Also, deployments are generally not as long as with the other services. My Doc at the Medical Hobby Shop on base has not been deployed for this current war. Of course, there are no guarantees. Everything is subject to the needs of the Air Force.
You should think about what you said. The meaning it conveys is, "I'd join if somebody else would take my undesireable assignments." When you're in uniform, we're all in this together.
I have a brother who told me, "I thought about joining the military, but I don't like people telling me what to do." Guess what he's had in every job he's worked at? A boss. Go figger. Compare the length of workdays and shift schedules at your local hospital, then go and talk with folks who work in a military facility. It may be that there is not much difference, or the results may actually surprise you. I heard an AF doc talking about his life. Basically an 8-hour workday, weekends and holidays off, no malpractice insurance. He loved it. I've heard of doctors who abandoned a private practice for this. Of course, the military does have commitments. Anyone in the military is subject to deployments and getting shot at. A recent Soldier of Fortune magazine had an article about a combat surgical team in Iraq. These guys were true heroes.
An airplane could crash into your building. A drunk driver could broadside you. You might get mugged on the way to your car. An aneurism might blow out. Who knows? Life has risks and they can't be eliminated. Sometimes we can minimize and manage risk, but it's always there. I'm sure every father in a combat zone has the same concerns as you. Also, the fathers driving rush hour traffic in the rain. The police officers going on shift... You get the point.
I don't know what the rules are on recall for officers. I don't know if you can totally resign your commission after fulfilling your active duty commitment. Somebody with real knowledge & experience will have to answer this. However, if you were recalled, odds are it would be because you were needed. They don't do it just to mess with you.
Maybe. But equally with the job skills, the military also needs people who have a sense of service. Nobody is in this business for the money. As noted above, most USAF Docs I've known seemed pretty happy. Try this. Picture yourself 20 or 30 years down the road. You've had a successful career as a surgeon. Your family is financially secure and comfortable. Your wife has the house she always dreamed of. And in your quiet moments alone you wonder, "What if...?" |
| Once you serve your original 6 year commitment you can totally resign your comission, giving the Military no option to recall you. Most of the officers who have been recalled involuntarily for this war were unaware of the procedures for resigning, or had not bothered to go through the process. |
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This is a potentially life changing decision. If you have the intelligence and good sense to become a surgeon, you certainly have more than most people and enough to make this decision. You need to sit down with your family and talk this over. Their welfare should be the most important factor. The military is not for everyone. You can get lucky and draw a good commander in a squared away unit or you can find yourself in a shithole with a commander who in civilian life would be in a mental institution. There is no shortage of the second kind in the service. The intelligence required to become a doctor is a gift from God. Use it wisely. |
Just my .02 but the enlistment term for all is 8 years. 6 years active, 2 years inactive or reserve.
You are going to wait until the war comes stateside? I have lost any amount of respect that I had for you......... People that hide behind cowardness. Good men and women are dying for your right to make that decision though. It is your decision to let someone else fight to preserve your rights and freedoms. The war is being fought over there because it is better than being fought here. I hope you are successful in whatever you do in life but I think your decision will haunt you in the future. |
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I'll support the war by paying 45% of my income in taxes. Plus a real big downer is the fact that I may have to listen to a nurse tell me what to do just because she was in longer and has rank. I will never let a nurse tell me how to treat my patients. This was told to me by one of the docs I asked about joining. Its not that I wont listen to a nurses recommendations but feel that the doctor should make the decisions unless the nurse did 5 years of surgical residency after 4 years of medical school and 4 years of college. This fact alone is reson enough for me not to join. Its like the flight attendant telling the pilot how to fly a plane. Too many things in the military just dont make sense. Also if your enlisted you may think docs have it good because they are officers but from all the docs I spoke to that isnt so. And if you dont think I havent sacrificed enough personally then you try becoming a surgeon. You will find out its much easier to kill people then save them & much more courage involved in healing someone. Anyone can use a gun to kill but lets see you use a knife to save someone. |
| Oh I am so worthless in that I cannot save a life like you. If you think that being in the military is all about killing you need a little more time in college. There are many aspects of service, in fact my last MOS was a Psychological Operations Specialist .......I am not going to waste my time. You are obviously very narcissistic; you probably wouldn't pass the psychological examination. I bet you feel service is beneath you so it's not worth anymore of my time. Good luck. |
Guess what. We in the military have to pay income taxes too.
I call  on this. I'll talk to our IDC, but I'm pretty sure docs rule the roost, so to speak. It's called positional authority. It's the poor enlisted corpsmen that get pushed around by nurses with less experience.
Then why start this post if your mind was already made up?
I'm an officer and I think docs have it pretty good. Sounds like your friends are a bunch of prima donnas. Sounds like they didn't like the idea of serving their country while their peers were making more money and had more personal freedom. The way I'm seeing this whole thing, if you don't join, it's no big loss. I' want a doc that wants to be there rather than have a doc that want's to avoid malpractice insurance. edited for board code. |
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Nothing wrong with "dragging your family all over the world." I spent 9 of my 20 years overseas and wish I had spent more. Join the Air Force. They have better assignments (Japan, England, Italy, Germany) and you will get treated better there. You are correct, the AF physicians I knew liked it because they actually got to PRACTICE medicine instead of dealing with paperwork, insurance, HMOs and malpractice insurance. As a surgeon, I would expect you would be stationed at the bigger bases and not get stuck in a clinic in Greenland. Also they have something called special incentive pay for doctors that can almost double your pay depending on your specialty field. Go for it. |
Dont take it personally Its not about the pay and I didnt say that your worthless. As far as schooling/education I probibly have twice as much as most people have. I have asked 4 docs (3surgeons and one PMD) all of them told me not to join I really would like to join because I think I would like the lifestyle However, you have to look at it for my point of view. I spent 13 years of higher education (college, med school & residency) and have about 200,000 in loans. I would love to join but not if I have to sacrifice my family or the way I chose to treat my patients. If the military wants physicians (especially surgeons) they have to be more accommodating. After looking into it this far I still dont feel the military cares for its physicians or their families. a narcissistic surgeon - now thats a first BTW Im a second generation surgeon - Im a surgeon like my father before me is that narcissistic enough for you I would like to get the input of some military docs or medical staff if possible Please tell me you rank and position if possible Any military docs out there? |
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I knew this had to be a joke thread; no wonder we lawyers like to sue docs - their egos are abigger than ours and that is saying soemthing. Why my wife, who is now a lawyer, but was an RN wastes times defending docs I will never udnerstand. The reason she got out of nursing was becuase of how the egomanical docs treated them. 
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For a doc, I think it's a good way (unfortunately) to get experience in things you likely wouldn't be doing often in a regular practice (unless you're an ER or ICU doc, which has got to be a horrible job due to the time involved). In any case, after being a doc in the military, I'd imagine you can transition into a high-paying carreer relatively painlessly. I would personally LOVE to join. It is the one and only thing that I want to do besides enter the corperate world, work my way up, and make $$. That is, college is the only thing holding me back, or to look at it in another light, I can take an officers' job of some sort after college (I've always wanted to be a pilot, since I was 2-3 years old and love flying; not many NYU grads flying through fireworks shows over baghdad, are there?). |
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thats because most lawyers are the scum of the earth and most docs are descent people who help others even if doctors are arrogant at least they help others lawyers are screwing up this country not doctors you can never have enough doctors but already there are too many lawyers a dime a dosen |
All that education and you write like that???? 
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So, the bottom line is you would like to do this but are put off because some of it may be inconvenient? From what I've heard of residency, it's pretty darned inconvenient. If you can survive that, the pressures of military life may even be a relief. Of course, this is not something to be done on a whim. Remember that champion boxer a few years back who decided he wanted to be a Marine? A few days into boot camp he was crying to go home. Joining the military is something that has to be carefully considered. If a person is not able to commit to at least the few years of one active duty term, they should stay where they are at. |
I saw this yesterday and didnt get a chance to respond. Do you really think that the military needs you more than you need it? Did you happen to notice that you live in a free country? One that allows you to be whatever you want to be? You ever vote in an election? Are you free to openly practice any religion you choose? Why do you think that is? That blanket of freedom and sense of protection that you wrap yourself in exists because of our military....not only do you NEED the military....you OWE the military. Do they need surgeons...yeah, Im sure they do. Why? Because most people would rather make the money in a civilian job and not risk their ass to do something bigger...that matters more. Good luck with your choice...but dont think for a second that you dont need the military. |
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I hear a lot of talk from everyone but docs Is there any docs or medical staff out there If not stop with the BS comments After discussing it with other docs and posting here I have decided that I would really like to join but there are too many negative issues. I would love to be part of the US military but for now I will support them by being the best capitalist I can be. If that offends you - too bad How do you think the military gets it funding. I guess this post is over. |
OK just got done talking with my corpsman. He's been in the Navy 18 years, has been stationed everywhere from Naval Hospitals to the Fleet Marine Force. Nurses do not over-rule docs when it comes to patient care. Plain and simple. In fact, they can't even prescribe meds, but independant duty corpsmen can. If a doc told you a nurse told him how to care for a patient, then in my doc's words, "he let himself be bossed around by some nurse and didn't have the sack to stand up to her." The nurses do determine who gets seen and how many people are seen. They are the schedule setters, but they don't decide patient care. They are not BS comments BTW. You do have one very large ego. Second generation surgeon? That probably explains it. You were probably raised to think you're better than every one else. |
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I made the 2nd generation surgeon comment because on the prior posts someone said that I was Narcissistic. To be honest most good surgeons are a little bit, but that comes with the job. I sure thats what they said about Gen. Paton and he was, but he was still a great leader. About the nursing issue - If a nurse out ranks a physician, does he have to take orders from him/her? |
Rank amoung restricted line officers, in my opinion, is like virtue amoung whores. Like I said before the nurses run the schedules. So yes you would have to listen to a nurse if she says you'll have to see 8 patients today. |
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One for the military docs actually brought this to my attention as one of the down sides of military medicine. Personally I dont know if I could handle taking orders that well especially from someone less qualified. It doesnt matter how many years a flight attendant has, a new pilot should still be in control over all aspects of his plane. Then again I'm sure there are others who would love for the attendant to take control, but I wouldn't want to fly on that plane. Again, I really want to be a part of the team but it doent seem like the medical corps cares for its surgeons/physicians. Until they do I will not join unless I feel that there is more of a threat to this country. Thanks to all the ARF.COM members who helped shed some light on this subject. God bless those fighting in Iraq and else where for security & freedom they provide |
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You serve the nation in the military - not yourself. You'll not get rich, fat, or comfortable but you will do more than most to support and defend our Constitution, our nation, and our way of life. If you think you'll join and it's going to just be like anyother job only you get to carry a gun and wear camo you'll find out that you're wrong. Service comes from the heart not the wallet. |
Nurses cannot dictate to a doctor how to treat a patient. All they do is scheduling and assist the doctor. Doctors risk their liscense if they let nurses dictate car to them, regardless of the nurse's rank. I really wish NavyDoc would post here, he's the one who could best answer your questions. |
There, fixed it for ya! 
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Your people skills suck. And you are <acting like> one selfish son of a bitch. Sgatr15 |
Yeah +1. I think he already knew the answer to his question before he asked. |
Look retard its not all about money or me Its about my family and how docs are treated in the military As far as the money goes, my family as well as my wife's family have lots of money Dont hate me because Im educated and have some money Like I implied many times I will not join any group that doesnt respect physicians and surgeons - military or private. I guess you'll never understand Thats what the communists think of the capitalist. All commies and ultra liberals think that hard working people with some money are selfish. I guess they were right in your oppinion. If your going to post something why not tell us your rank and the number of years served. Maybe I would give you some credit. For now your oppinion of me means nothing especially if you havent the balls to state your life accomplishments. |
Oh, I think we all understand quite well. You're special, your family is special, your wife's family is special, your surgeon father is special, physicians and surgeons in general are special, and well... the military just doesn't recognize just how special you all are. And if you really think I'm a retard, why, I'm special too! Whee! 
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No offense intended, but here's the straight up truth: you DO NOT belong in uniform. Any uniform. Period. Have a nice day.  |
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LT (O-3) United States Navy, Surface Warfare Officer 3+ years enlisted service, highest rank achieved petty officer second class (E-5). Four years NROTC. 4.5+ years commissioned. Recently selected for augmentation from the active reserves to the regular Navy. Waiting on Congress to give the OK. Not the highest ranking person posting on this board, nor do I have served nearly as long as some. However, I honor the sacrifice of those who went before me by serving as they did. |
First, want to say thanks for serving and your accomplisments are respectable. Spoken like an officer as well I was ondering if you had any experience with Navy docs and what they thought. Also how do you feel the Navy treated you as an officer and your family |
No, the medical hierarchy is respected. You WILL go where the military sends you. You may well be seperated from your family, including your training period to be an Officer. When I was an AF X-Ray Tech, all Physicians, no matter the specialty rotated through night/evening/weekend ER coverage as MOD, Medical Officer of the Day. Military Physicians enjoy slower promotions and longer hours than alot of thier brother officers. Becoming a Flight Surgeon would get you flight pay, as well as make you more of a Military Officer than just being a Doc. There have been a variety of Professional pay (Pro Pay) schemes for Physicians since the VietNam era. Your rank upon enlistment will depend on your level of training, and specialty. An aside: My father was an AF Flight Surgeon. He served 34 yrs, through 3 wars, and never saw combat. He had no un-accompanied tours, but did spend alot of time on TDY to NASA, and on travel for the AF. He is proud to have served his country in whatever capacity asked of him. I am DAMNED PROUD to have hung onto the tail of his helmet bag. it was a heck of an experience as a kid. Despite his non-combat record, I count him a Warrior, and a Patriot. Are YOU up to that challenge, Doctor? DaddyDett USAF BRAT 1957-1975, USAF MEDIC 1975-1979 |