[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Performing a Systems Check Pics (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 1/18/2005 9:58:12 AM EDT
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As a continuaton of my efforts to encourage worthwhile subjects being posted on General Discussion, I am going to teach some folks how to Perform a Systems Check. I went to Thunder Ranch several times and spent a lot of money to learn these techniques. I offer them to you guys free of charge. In a gunfight, you may find yourself in a "lull" when the action has stopped. It may began again, without notice. In the mean time, you would want to do a "Tactical Reload". This means to replace any partially loaded magazines with full ones. You do this while keeping the weapon pointed towards the threat and ready to go into action immediately. As you pull out the new magazine, you use your finger to feel the top round and make sure it is properly seated in the mag.  You would then remove the partially loaded mag and switch to the fully loaded one. Do not drop the partially loaded one. As Clint Smith says, "There may come a time when you will be really, really glad to have those extra few rounds."  You should then give the new magazine a good bump with the palm of your hand to make sure it is fully seated.  Place the partially loaded mag in your pocket. You are then faced with a question: "Is there a round in the chamber?" To confirm this, you must do what is called a "Systems Check". You slightly pull the slide back enough to place your finger in the open chamber and feel for the loaded round. You "feel" rather than "look", so that it can be done in low-light situations as well.  Be sure to keep your off hand clear of the muzzle at all times. After feeling the round, close the slide and return to firing position.  You now have a fully loaded pistol and are now ready to go back to work. How about with a rifle? Again, you are in a lull in the fight and want to load a fully loaded magazine into the weapon. Holding the loaded mag in your hand, release the partially loaded mag and save it.  Give the new mag a firm bump with the palm of your hand to fully seat it.  You can then place the partially loaded mag in your pocket. You are then faced with determining if there is a loaded round in the chamber. You must do a Systems Check. Pull the charging handle back with your right hand and use the finger of the left hand to feel for the loaded round on the bolt.  Release the charging handle and let the bolt go forward. Use your finger on your left hand to place it in the groove in the bolt and pull the bolt fully closed.  Do not use the Forward Bolt Assist. Why? As Clint says, "If that round doesn't want to go into the chamber easily, why in the world would you want to force it into the chamber. Eject it and load another round." You are now ready to return to the fight.  You have a fully loaded rifle and are assured that the chamber is loaded. A couple of reminders: 1. These drills take practice, practice, practice. Make them a routine part of your range time. 2. Practice only at the range. These drills require live ammo and the weapons must be pointed down range at all times. Who says all we do is argue politics and religion?  (Thanks to Tman for taking the pictures.) |
Eric, I was an old shooter with many years of shooting under my belt when I went to Thunder Ranch. By was I surprised. I thought I knew a lot. I found out that I hadn't scratched the surface. There is a world of knowledge out there. Spending some money to get trained is money well-spent. 
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Yep, it was new information to me also. Clint says that he was told that Stoner designed the bolt with that indent in it for just that purpose. It works like a charm. |
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Amen. I've been taking training as well - although not at Thunder Ranch. Its very eye-opening. Secondarily, when I'm out and shooting now - there's a smoothness that wasn't there before. It definitely goes way beyond sight picture, trigger control and breath patterns.... There's so many things you'd never think of, and you learn real fast what doo-dads work and which ones just cost money. |
I am not actually a big fan of full-length guide rods. This is the only 1911 I have that has one. But I perform the Systems Check exactly the same way with all pistols. Clint does not recommend a press-check due to your hand being so near the muzzle. It just begs to blow off a finger, and is unnecessary. Doing it as I have shown works great and does not place the hand so near the muzzle. 
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The problem with this is that Clint is wrong, and what he's suggesting is wrong. Here's why: First, the "dent" on the bolt carrier is to allow room for the latch on the ejection port cover. When you pull the charging handle back, or if the bolt/carrier cycles, the cover will be forced open when the latch hits the end of the "dent". And the reason you don't wan't to be putting your finger there in the middle of a firefight is because that carrier is going to be HOT, due to the gas being ejected from the holes there. While it's not a problem when the gun is cold, if you've just emptied a couple of mags, touching that is gonna give you a nice fat blister at the very least. Clint Smith is a great teacher and certainly has a lot of great stuff to teach, but every once in a while, he takes some strange positions or lets his personal bias's show too much. At least, IMO. -Troy |
Well Troy, I usually agree with you on most issues. Not this time. There are thousands of satisfied students that seem to think that he knows what he is talking about. There are long lines to get into his training classes. So, I must either trust him, or Troy, who doesn't have any lines lined-up to pay him money to teach them. I'll go with Clint, no offense intended.
I did it many, many times at Thunder Ranch after firing many hundreds of rounds. It was never a problem. But, like many other things in the firearms world, I actually tried it, instead of just reading about it. It works just fine. |
JMB intended you to put your finger on the muzzle and your thumb inside the trigger guard of a potentially loaded pistol? AND you'd be practicing a technique that works with almost no other common pistols other than the 1911 and the Browning Hi-Power. OP demonstratced EXACTLY the way a press check should be done on an auto pistol. |
Yep, that's me. A lot like Smith, but in a much better-looking way. Thanks for noticing. "I love it when a plan comes together." |
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How fast can you do all this stuff? I wonder how well it'd work in reality. When your body is stressed and the blood is pumping, I wonder how well some of those intricate steps would work. Even changing mags while trying to retain your partially loaded mag seems like it'd be a tricky thing to do if you were in the middle of a firefight. I guess it depends on your situation and how well you can do all this stuff automatically… how well you've practiced it... Shawn |
You are absolutely correct. After I got home and saw the pics, it was the first thing I noticed. I was tilting it so that the photo would show the brass in the chamber. But it is a bad technique. When I did it at Thunder Ranch, Clint hollered, "Don! Quit pointing that pistol at Jesus!!" You are right and I was wrong. I can take it like a man.  |
Practice doesn't hurt.
Doubtful you'll be doing partial mag change in the middle of a firefight (more likely just emergency changes). But that's not what this "systems check" is for. |
A very good observation. When we first tried this at TR, it was slow and involved a lot of fumbling. More and more practice resulted in smoother and faster handling. And we did it a lot! Almost after every break, which was often in the Texas summer heat, the instructors would call the commands: "Ready on the line! Systems check!" We then did it, time and time again. And at the end of every firing string, you and your partner hollered to one another (one at a time), "Cover!" This meant that you were going to do a tactical reload and they should "cover" your target while you did it. When finished, you yelled, "Ready". He would probably then do the same thing. I can honestly say that at the end of the week, I was as smooth as glass. But, like almost any motor skill, if you don't practice it a lot, you will slowly lose it. That's why I recommend practice, practice, practice. |
Thanx OP!
I have to agree with Troy on this one. There have been times when my rifle was way too hot to try the recommended procedure. |
Works with the CZ line as well. Seems like his hand is just as close to the muzzle in the pics above as it would be doing a proper press check; and you got me on the thumb inside the trigger guard thing. Never seen that trick before. I just use my finger Also, this is called a "tactical reload" everywhere else. At least thats what it was called when I learned it 15 years ago. |
Maybe. But Clint recommends that you perform it the same way on M1A's. Why? Because that will allow you to keep your eyes on the threat and do the check by "feel". It also works in low-light or near dark. And lastly, learn one method. Learn it well. Practice a lot. And don't confuse yourself by trying to learn a bunch of different methods. |
If a person does a "press check", their finger is actually in front of the muzzle before they "press". This is unacceptable. Using the method I demonstarted, the fingers are never in front of the muzzle. Do as you like, but your method can result in the nickname of "Stubby".
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OP, I am not passing judgment on anyone, I just enjoy watching threads like this pan out. I rarely participate, mostly because I am not keen on trying to influence others to my way of thinking on the Internet. I will say this: It is important to remember that these schools teach "a" way of doing things. They don't teach the only way, and usually not even the best way. Just "a" way. Train with different folks, find out what works best for you, take what you can use and forget what you can't. Then practice, practice, practice. |
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Thanks for the good stuff OP, one thing though, I never understood the idea of a 'tactical reload'. I understand the schools need to teach something other than 'frontsight-trigger-squeeze' if they hope to be in business longer than one training period, but in my mind, when in a gunfight, one shoots until slide lock then reloads as neccessary, I can not think of a time, where that would not be the case. Aren't 99% of all gunfights over in like 3 seconds? Thats at most, one magazine for a normal capacity weapon, so you shoot your load into the alleged perpetrator, the gun fight is over, and you do a basic reload (as you are at slide lock) and it is just bad manners to have a weapon not charged. Aren't tactical reloads more for gun games? |
That's a good question, old buddy. One does not "shoot until slide lock". We shoot until the threat ceases to be a threat. Suppose I have a burglar and shoot him, two to the torso, two to the head. He goes down, dropping his gun, and looks like he is out of the fight. Clint says, "Remember, wolves travel in packs." That means, you don't know if he was by himself or has partners. So, you keep him covered while you check for other targets. But if it seems quiet, why stand there with a partially charged pistol or rifle. You should seek cover and then do a tactical reload and "top-off" your weapon. That is what I was demonstrating. Your question about "Aren't 99% of all gunfights over in like 3 seconds?" is another story. You are correct (maybe not the 99% part) that most gunfights are over in a matter of seconds. But, Clint teaches that we should train for the unexpected. Train for the possibility of additional "wolves". Train for if your weapon jams. Train to do reloads, both tactical and empty pistol. Train to use unfamiliar pistols. Train for many different types of malfunctions. If we were positive that we would face only one type of scenerio, that would simplify the task. But we do not know in advance what we will face. So.....we train for all of them. |
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Clint has some of the best one liners... How sharp/cutting they are depends on when you knew him (he has mellowed, gotten nicer over the years.) I understood what you were doing, I was messing with you.
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No, if your finger were in front of the muzzle, then you would be pressing the barrel, which is not a press check. The finger presses the slide, below the barrel, coming from under the frame. I've never in my life put my finger on or over my muzzle doing a press check. |
I understand what you are saying, BB. But imagine if you will, a "plane" formed at the muzzle of your pistol. It goes up and down and sideways in all directions. One rule of gun safety is that no part of your body should ever "break" that plane. If you do a press check, your finger breaks that plane, even if it does not go directly in front of the barrel. The best safety practice is to never break that plane.  |
Ok, I see where you are coming from, but I've got to disagree. Did Clint teach this in his course? Did he cover shooting from retension? |
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You're finger breaks the 180º just making the trip to the recoil plug - there's no way to avoid it. Anyway, what's that other thing that spews out the end of a gun barrel besides a bullet? Oh yeah - searing hot gas. If you do a "proper" Steven Segal press check - you're simply indicating to everyone within view that you're an amatuer (and probably a dangerous one at that). |
No problem.
Yes. But he and his instructors acted like it was so common knowledge that it didn't bare much repeating. I am a firearms instructor and have taught it for many years. I would never consciously place a part of my body in front of the muzzle plane.
Not sure what you mean by that one. We always drew from a holster and drew to the "Ready" position. |
Another Clint-ism in red.
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Good post. Thanks O_P I think anyone who has been in the military completely agrees with O_P when he stresses the importance of repetetive PRACTICE! Knowing something in principle, and being able to do it consistently under stress are two completely different things. |
I've taken two courses at Gunsite, and the only press-check I saw Cooper do while I was there was the "thumb in the trigger-guard, push back on the recoil plug" version. Probably saw him do it a few dozen times over the course of two weeks. I had no idea he was considered "an amatuer (and probably a dangerous one at that)." Wish I had known... The point is, as was established earlier, Clint Smith runs a great school, but it is one school, teaching one school's answer to the tactical problem. No one school has the exclusive answers. |