[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Jeff Cooper? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 1/13/2005 10:32:31 AM EDT
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Hey, I love the guy, grew up worshiping at his church of the 1911/45. Just noticed a couple things on his commentaries page for this month... "We note that the people at Ruger are now marketing a pseudo-scout which they call the "Frontiersman" (for obscure reasons). It misses much of the virtue of a true Scout, but it is a step in the right direction." File this under "everything old is new again". People (mostly Jeff himself) believe that he invented the "scout rifle" concept. I was looking through some old American Rifleman magazines from 1965 (40 years ago!) and there were numerous ads for what are called "scout scopes and mounts." It was a big trend in the middle 60s. There must be a reason why it went out of style back then. I will admit that I got caught up in the scout rifle fad about 10 years ago. I never had a "true scout" rifle but I put together 3 different scout concept rifles. Seems like a good idea, but putting the scope out front makes the rifle unbalanced. It also makes the scope much more susceptable to being bumped and snagged on branches in the field. Those rifles were just awkward to carry and handle. I also needed more the 2.5X scopes past 100 yards with my old eyes. I tried 3 times, each time taking the rifle deer hunting. Didn't like it. I could/can see no benefit to the scout concept over a traditionaly mounted scope. Yeah, I know, what about the intregal folding stock and movable sling? Both good ideas but nothing that has not been tried or used before. Anyway, been there, done that, don't want the T-shirt. "And we also note that Ruger now has a couple of new 45 caliber pistols which promise well on the drawing board." Not sure what 2 45s he's talking about. Surely, one of them couldn't be Ruger's model 345 which is a double action auto! He must be refering to their single action revolvers. Of course he is kind of a stickler in making a distinction between a pistol and revolver. Could Chairman Jeff be getting senile? "The word comes back to us that there are two kinds of troops in the battle zone now - those who have a 1911 45 auto and those who wish they had." Given the choice, I would pick a 45 to carry in war. Even though I am a big 1911 fan, and have a bunch of them, I am not sure I would choose one if I have a choice of something else. Certainly I would have no problem carrying a 1911. I just think there are more suitable pistols available now. I think I would druther have a Glock 21 or a Sig 220. Hell, I wouldn't even mind a Ruger P90/P97 or the 345, and I don't even like double action autos. I still gotta love the old fart, though he suffers from selective memory and old man's syndrom, ie., everything was better in the old days. 
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The Ruger model 345 is marketed as a DA/SA with a decocker. |
It's still a double action auto. BTW, the Remington 600 in the ad was a sweet rifle in its day. |
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He has some great info, and more experience than I will ever have, but I think he needs to ease up pushing the scout rifle. It is very clear to anyone who cares what he thinks constitutes a scout rifle, and what he thinks it is good for. I assume that much of his restistance to companies making their own varieties of scout rifles is due to the fact that Steyr makes one that he designed, which doesn't seem to sell very well. As stated before, the Germans employed short rifles with forward mounted scopes during WWII, and they have been in use to some degree ever since. It seems to me that in this case, Jeff Cooper is much like Fred, from the Fred's M-14 Stock Company, who writes a colum in every Shotgun News. If you don't have exactly what he thinks you should have, there is no hope for you ever doing well with it. At least Jeff Cooper doesn't have to pay anyone to print his work. |
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I took a rifle course from Jeff Cooper in 1981. Most of us had Scout rifles or Scout-forgeries. It primarily focused on short range self defense, much like a modern carbine course, with some dangerous game and a little long range shooting thrown in. In the mid 1980's Cooper setup the first carbine courses (AR15 only) at Gunsite. It lead to the birth of the modern AR. Today when I see an Aimpoint mounted out front I think of Jeff Cooper. Much of Cooper's best work is not published, for the same reason the police don't post their SOPs online, although much of it has gotten out through the carbine courses of others. He is much more involved with the developments of the last two decades than he lets on. |
That is a revelation to me! Wow. All that talk of the AR being a "poodle shooter" and then he goes and helps define its role in the modern military. Very interesting- and improves my already good impression of the man. Thanks for sharing that. |
Actually, Cooper wrote about previous front-scope mount designs in his writings on the "scout rifle" concept. What Cooper did was set down the specifications for the "scout rifle". All the features were used previously, he put forward the set of features as a "package".
I don't see why it would make it unbalanced . . . isn't the scope going over the center of balance? A bigger turn off to me is that the forward mounted scope makes sunlight from the side-rear into a much bigger problem.
Odd selection. In fast target aquisition shooting, the Glock points very different than a 1911. Given the purpose of the handgun, it seems to me that you need to pick handguns that point the same. Go with 1911, stick with 1911, go with Glock, stick with Glock. 1911s offer a flatter profile and a better trigger than Glocks and P220s. I feel the 1911 points better than the Glock as well. I'd definitly go with 1911. Wouldn't consider the Ruger at all. |
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I respect the guy, been to Gunsite a few times, and enjoy his writing. But, he is a dinosaur and refuses to accept anything new. Which is fine, but, he won't accept that some new things may work better. I like the guy and I spoken with him... But, he isn't the guru anymore, unless it comes to stories about the past. |
Agreed, I respect Mr. Cooper and his work. But his refusal to accept, and pattern of belittlement, of new things bothers me. |
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"We note that the people at Ruger are now marketing a pseudo-scout which they call the "Frontiersman" (for obscure reasons). It misses much of the virtue of a true Scout, but it is a step in the right direction." Would that be the Scout Rifle of his with which he proceeded to miss the reactive target with twice on "American Shooter?" G23c |
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There is no doubt that Cooper has made great influences on the way many of us including the military and police do things. Can't argue with that at all. In regards to the 1911 vs. the Glock or Sig. Certainly they are all different, and certainly they have a different feel and different pointing abilities. I am not saying that the others are better than a 1911 but I feel they may be better suited . I carried a 1911 (Series 70 Colt) on duty as a cop from 1976-1980. I worked for a small department at the time and could carry whatever I wanted. I loved it but you had to be careful with it, particularly carrying it cocked and locked. A 45 acp is a good caliber, what gun you carry it in is a choice and I think there are more practical choices than a 1911. In regards to scout rifle balance. It is my feeling that moving the scope forward not only distrupts the fore and aft balance but also the side to side balance. It seemed to me that the scope over the action allowed the barrel to come up quicker than with it out front. The other issue of balance is in regards to carrying it either slinged or in you arms. It just always seem awkward to me. I really, really tried to like the scout concept, but just couldn't. Wasn't is Cooper who always said.."a solution to a problem that didn't exist?" I think he was talking about his own scout concept. |
Well, I haven't kept up with his most recent writings, but he has accepted a number of new things. He like the AUG when it came out, although not the cartridge, and he had good (and bad) things to say about its plastic lockwork. He has come out in favor of other new things as well, titanium as a gunmaking material, etc. He doesn't like new things that he doesn't see as an improvement. He's not always right, but he's not always wrong. We have lots of new gadgets that don't do anything better then the old gadgets. Several months ago, he was even admitting that the '16 and the 5.56 were working in Iraq, at least at the ranges involved. That might seem like late acceptance, but a lot of the ".30 cal crowd" hate the '16 and 5.56, and will probably never accept it. |
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I've never understood why he isn't interested in handloading. Had snacks at his house after the master's class in 2000. Saw all the Scout prototypes on the wall in his basement gun room. But there isn't one piece of reloading equipment anywhere. I've also never heard him talk about the subject. 
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I've heard several claims from shooting schools (including one from Cooper, and several by others posted on this site), that in combat pistol schools, the DA/SA design has more NDs. I think that this is something that tends to occur more often with dynamic usage; i.e., sitting in a holster a DA/SA is pretty safe. But the user is used to it--the gun--being safe, and has poor trigger disipline. When the weapon is fired, particularly under dynamic circumstances, it becomes a SA w/o safety (until decocked), but the user maintains the poor disipline he's always maintained. That's just my theory, but it isn't clear to me that DA/SAs or Glocks are safer in actual usage. One thing lots of safety mavens miss is that people "seek" a certain level of safety. When they exceed that level, they are prone to trade it off for something else, like convienience. Consequently, objects that are more mechanically safer can tend to "encourage" people to push the limits more. Of course, the computer that's making all the determinations is the human brain, and sometimes it makes mistakes. |
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Here is his latest "compliment" about the the 223. "Our personal tactical studies from Mesopotamia conclude that the 223 cartridge (5.56) is a pretty good man-stopper, if you hit your man three or four times in the center of the chest. Just how the United States military service got saddled with the mouse gun is a story in itself." One thing to note about the 223 is that you CAN HIT your man 3 or 4 times in the chest rather quickly. Where-as heavier calibers are much harder to control. |
I think he has always had access to large quantities of ammo. He has come out in favor of Nosler/Hornady 230 gr FP .45 bullets, and he's also been known to use 200 gr FPs. I think these are handload-only bullets. |
It seems to be his pet load for the 45 to make major caliber was a #68 H&G semi wadcutter in front of X grains of bullseye powder. I can't even imagine how many of those loads I shot in the 70's & 80s. |
Cooper wrote some about the FMJ truncated cone type bullets. I like the #68 myself, but I've been using 231. |
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I don't think it is hard to understand the Col's reluctance to change, that s normal human behavior, and remeber most of his opinons are based on his and other peoples actual expiernces. It's hard to get somebody to change from what has worked for them in the past. A hundred years ago the old timers didn't want to believe that small bore high velocity rounds like the 30-06 or 8mm mauser would work. The were used to 45-70s and 577 Synders. As for the scout rifle concept either you like it or you don't ( I do ) but its not much different than a non powered low mag. aimpoint or eotech, kinda like the ACOG that is considered the cats meow, over in the big sand box. Imagine that. |
| i think the old goat is an egotistical moron and completely wrapped up in himself, as in a "legend in his own mind". "you don't judge the intelligence of a man by the answers he gives, but by the questions he asks." he trys to sound like a great philosopher with great linguistic skills which idiots are known to do to cover up their insecurities and present a false intelligence thinking they impress people. |
That's hilarious! What 223 cartridges did the ancient Greeks use again?  Know we know how old he REALLY is. No one's called that area "Meopotamia" for 2000 years. Now it's thought of as Iraq and parts of Syria and Turkey. |
I guess me and Coop have that in common. I don't get the 6.8mm thing either. |
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Yeesh... Poor balance? A scout rifle? Are you kidding? There's a lot of things you can criticize the Scout for, but balance sure isn't one of them. I've hunted for 3 years now with the Scout and have hiked, ran, crawled and stood with the Scout in my hands for hours at a time. I've shot running deer, deer standing at more than 200 yards, deer hoping fences and deer wandering through the woods. I've shot them from a tree stand, from kneeling, from sitting, rested on a fence post and from prone with the bipod legs down. The biggest weakness of the Scout is long ranges at dusk. The low power scope makes it difficult to pick up deer against a leafy background as the lights get low. The balance is actually its greatest attribute. |
Yep. The ill thought out demarcation of borders for Allied mandates cut out of Ottoman territory at Versailles is the root of half our trouble in Iraq. |
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I credit the man for pushing the handgun as a serious weapon system for personal protection. He forced people to think about tactics and, then, train for them. He readily adopted Whit Collins work on the 10mm and pushed that forward, which(love it or not) resulted in the .40S&W. Look at the time line, the 9x19mm & .38Spl was introduced in 1902, the .45ACP in 1911, the .38Super in 1929, and the .357 in 1935. A half a century had passed without a significant advancement in handgun development until the arrival of the 10mm in 1983. We are significantly better off after 40 years of his work than before. That is the true measure of a man. wganz ¶ |
He's 84, and uses the term because he is a former professor of history, and an extremely literate man. |
He has a PhD, FWIW. He is an elitist, sure, but I respect his opinions and certainly his abilities. The man knows history, thats for sure, and his command of the English language is excellent. |
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I found this Oct 1980 SOF article among some old papers a few minutes ago. It has a picture of Jeff Cooper holding a PC-80 machine pistol with an Aimpoint scope which he dubbed the "Police Carbine, Model of 1980." It was supposed to be manufactured in .44 AutoMag, but I never heard anymore about it after this. Cooper calls the forward mounted Aimpoint, "a high speed optical sight," which, "offers extreme rapidity combined with a high degree of precision up to middle ranges." That was pretty forward thinking in 1980!!!  |
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Hawkeye, It ill serves you to speak badly of someone who is so much your senior. If you don't like him, it is sufficient to say "I don't like his writing style or his concepts." However, you were insulting to Col. Cooper who is not just an accomplished human being, but also a bright and highly educated man. I hope that if I live to be 84 I am still as vigorous and focussed as Jeff Cooper. |
IIRC the problem was with the manufacturers & subcontractors, not the gun itself. As far as Cooper, this country would be in far better shape if there were more like him. He's one of the last of a dying breed. |
He had no financial interest in it. He gave his advise on what some of the specs should be. Some of his advise was followed, much was not. The failure of the project was due to two gunsmiths not having sufficient capital to start a gun manufacturing business from scratch. Imagine what would happen to Sig sales if Mec-Gar were to say no more magazines until 2006. It would kill a big companies sales as surely as it killed a small one. |
Amen. As the great Theodore Roosevelt said: It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. Cooper stood in the arena. |
Sounds like 85% of the participants in our GD forums. He would fit in here rather nicely. |
What makes them "more suitable"? Double action? Decocker? Plastic? Inquiring minds would like to know
What? Like not pulling the trigger if you don't want the gun to fire? Remembering the safeties? Hmm.... I thought most guns fire if the trigger is pulled and the safeties are off. |
I disagree with Cooper on much, and frankly don’t even bother reading him any more. But even I have to admit he is a marvelous wordsmith.
Granted, I doubt an Iraqi insurgent would know if he had just been shot with a 1911 or a Sig P220. I suspect Cooper is comparing 1911’s to Beretta 9MM’s, and I emphatically agree with him on that. To me, doing a dynamic entry with a handgun loaded with 9MM FMJ’s is almost suicidal – and yet that’s what we’re asking out troops to do!!  How did we come to this?  |
Bingo! For those of you not 100% up to speed on Colonel Cooper, you can pore through reams of his Commentaries here: Cooper's Commentaries:http://www.dvc.org.uk/~johnny/jeff/ |
Now a days they bring rifles with them also, however I can attest that the 9mm ball is very fatal. |