[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Isnt this illegal (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 12/21/2004 8:10:39 AM EDT
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Let me re word all of this....... While I was out 4 wheeling I ran accross a bunch of dumb ass rednecks shooting a ar15 that would fire a round when he pulled the trigger and when he released the trigger. The dumb ass redneck mentioned that he modified his trigger by placing a piece of tie rap in between his trigger and disconnector.. Isnt this illegal... |
It is illegal. You engage the trigger and it produces a burst. You go right ahead and try it for yourself. Let us know if they have internet in prison. |
How so, he pulls the trigger once, 1 round discharges, if he continues to hold the trigger no more rounds discharge, upon release of the trigger a round discharges, if you don't pull it again no rounds discharge. Definition of a machine gun is that it will continue to fire so long as the trigger is held back and there is ammunition. This gun won't do that according to the description, so how is it illegal??? |
you are wrong. A trigger pull is defined as the full movement of the trigger including the resetting of the hammer. SInce this fires twice before the trigger resets it is illegal SGatr15 |
You may be thinking of the Hellfire. It's a device to help you bump fire. IOW it makes bump firing easier. |
Show me proof that it is illegal. The burden of proof to show it is legal is not on me, there are no laws that I know of that say a gun can not be discharged when the trigger is released. Go ahead and prove to me that it's illegal. |
sgtar15 answered correctly above. |
And where is that definition located?? Who's is it?? Go ahead show me a source. |
No, the definition of a machine gun is a weapon that is mechanically set up so that one pull of the trigger results in the inevitable discharge of more than a single round. Its true that as long as he holds the trigger, it's only fired one round; but once you pull the trigger you eventually have to release it and once you set the process in motion it is inevitable and automatic that at least two rounds will discharge before the gun is again "at rest" |
It is YOUR responsibility to know the law. |
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If one were to modify the trigger spring, so that it didn't reset automatically, it would be OK. The trigger would then be actuated in BOTH directions, requiring 2 trigger functions for every two rounds. You could fasten your finger to the trigger and move it backward and forward. I still think it is extremely dangerous. I don't think it is pointless though. |
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hey guys, chill out. I dont want you all to argue about this. I was just telling you all a story I had about some dumb asses I ran accross out in the woods. I tend to run accross allot of people doing weird shit when I go out 4 wheeling. We all know I didnt do anything wrong and I just wanted you guys opinion on this. I would in no way do this to any of my firearms. I prefer bump fireing. I pretty much masterred that fine art,,lol |
A MG is defined as more than 1 round per function of a trigger. NOT A PULL OF YOUR FINGER! The trigger function in a traditional trigger is a pull and then a spring automatically resets the trigger, If you took your finger off the trigger after pulling it, you would get another shot! This is why it is a MG. You can use a button or a crank to pull the trigger, but if the mechanism is designed to fire upon engagement and release of the trigger, then you have a MG. If the spring was set in such as way as to not reset the trigger automatically, then it would be fine. The rifle could not fire then if you removed your finger from the trigger, and it would require another manipulation to make the gun fire again. |
You have to keep the trigger pulled back, just like a FA gun, if you don't hold the trigger back, you will only get one or two rounds. The 3 round burst is only considered an MG because it will fire more than one round with a single pullof the trigger, which according to BATFE is a machinegun(is that their intupretation or is that writen in the laws???) |
Why don't you just call the ATF and ask them? Internet bickering isn't going to solve a damn thing on this. And if you're really confident you're right, tell them you've installed on of these on your AR. 
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Again I ask where is that definition, who's definition is it, was it the definition used in the NFA law, or is it the inturpretation of the BATFE, which as we all know is not law, just what they inturpret the law to mean. All I want is a measly little source. Thats it. Guys I'm just doing this to argue, but really think about it, half the BS we deal with isn't even law it'sthe BATFE's BS interpretation of what the law says, which is not thier job to do. |
That's called a slam fire, where the hammer follows the bolt home which can OFTEN result in the round firing before the bolt fully closes. That means you will have a large part of that 35,000 pressure come right back at your head. And it is pointless to have a rifle that will fail you quickly SGatr15 |
hee hee. NFA and most state laws. Of course, don't believe any one here, go ahead and do as you please. |
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HOLY CRAP all this arguing back and forth and no one has yet posted the DEFININTION OF A MACHINEGUN UNDER US LAW
There have been atf opinions on this very same issue (viz., whether a two shot burst, one shot upon trigger pull, and second upon trigger release is a machinegun), and the ATFs position is that such a gun is in fact a machine gun. |
There was a company (The name excapes me at the moment) about 15 or 17 years ago that sold a replacement trigger group for the Mini14 that would fire a round when you pulled the trigger and one round when you released the trigger. They sold them for years in the trade magazines Shotgun News and etc. It sold for about $179. ATF never had a problem with them. Stupid as it sounds now all the Mini14s in the show A-Team had these tigger groups. Just my .02 |
At no point anywhere in wisconsin state law is what a "trigger pull" or "pull of the trigger" defined. A trigger pull is just that I pull the trigger, leting go o the trigger so it can reset, is not "pulling" the trigger, there is no force exerted on the trigger by me and it is moving in a direction away from me. So in this states law there is no definition. Not that I ever saw. |
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www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=62411 That SHOULD answer the question. Edit: And I had a more-or-less exact copy of that same BATF letter when I bought one for my mini-30. |
But what is a single functionof the trigger, is it the point the round ires or is it after the round fires too. The function o the trigger is to release the hammer, when you release the trigger after fireing a shot, the hammer is not released, therefore the trigger is not functioning(it ain't doing it's job). |
Using the term "trigger pull" is the incorrect term....it is more "trigger function" Sgat1r5 |
If the bolt is locked up then the rifle won't be firing OUT OF BATTERY. A slamfire is when the bolt closes and the primer detonates due to improper seating, sensitive primers, or some other factor relating to a defective bolt assembly. Firing out of battery is a totally different phenomenon, and not likely to happen to the idiot that is using a twistie on his lower. The bolt will lock up just fine, and the rifle won't explode. |
Determinations like that are left to BATF. For example, although a DIAS is not a complete firearm as most people would see it, BATF has determined them to be machineguns. Almost every statute is administered by some federal agency and those agencies are given lattitude to make certain factual determinations and regulations necessary to implement the underlying statute. If BATF says its a MG, you're going to have a very hard time dissuading a federal court of that notion; the courts generally grant agencies like BATF deference WRT their particular area of expertise. Its not impossible to get an agency determination struck down, but the cards are definitely stacked against you in court, both legally and financially. Usually the standard is "arbitrary and capricious" - unless the agency has no basis whatsoever for their determination and it is an arbitrary and capricious ruling or decision, it is usually found to be valid. Some good arguments have been made here a to why BATF would classify such a device as a MG - probably more than enough to keep a BATF determination to that end valid. IMHO, not wise at all - all BATF has to do is decide those trigger kits are MG's (like a DIAS or LL) and you'll have to spend a lot of time and money trying to keep your ass out of prison. You'd spend far more than a transferable M16 would cost. |
There you have it Photoman, I thought everybody knew this. |
According to that letter, photoman is correct. I apologize, photoman. |
Hmm it seems I am correct, it is NOT illegal. Thanks arowneragain. And that should teach ya'll a lesson too, I don't know what that lesson is, but damn it ya better learn one  
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Not a problem, have a 
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Interesting letter - I never would have expected BATF to allow it. I would, however, like to see the remainder of the letter - there was at least one additional page to the letter not included on the HighRoad (no gignature line) and it may very well have had more pertinent info. |