Posted: 12/9/2004 6:06:02 PM EDT
| What is the difference between the ford 351 series modor? I have seen there are 3 different types a 351 windsor, 351 clevland, and a 351M. I am currently looking to purchase a truck with a 351 and got kind of currious. |
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The 351 Windsor is a smallblock. Same external dimensions as the 302 or 289. The 351 Cleveland is a bigblock designed for performance. Canted valves, large intake runners, liked RPM. The 351M/400 was originally designed as a low-rpm, torquey pickup truck motor, though you can build one as far as you have the $$$. That is the very condensed version. |
| Well, if you're looking to do some serious building, a 351w might not be good. but, if you're looking for simple mods (intake, exhaust, headers, new carb/fuel injection system) etc, the 351w would be fine for you, and not too bad at 4x4. Mine was 4x4 and I didn't find any situation it wouldn't handle. |
The deck height on a 351 is .5" taller resulting in a motor that is a little bit bigger than a 289 and 302. Windsors are great and easy to build into a performance piece. Thanks Arvin |
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There's nothing wrong with the 351W in a truck. The 94 will have fuel injection and should have been rated at about 205 HP and close to 300 ft-lb (neither at the rear wheels though) Clevland versions were never installed in a truck by Ford from the factory. It would be the wrong motor for a 4WD anyway. Test drive it and if you like it get the truck. Also, don;t forget to check recalls. |
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351 Cleveland is no big block motor. I don't know why people say it is just because it has canted valves. If we go by that assumption than a Boss 302 is a big block motor because it uses basically the same head as a 351 Cleveland and has huge intake runners. For that matter I can put 351 Cleveland heads on a 351W, what would we have then? 351 Windsor is a progression of the 260/289/302 family. Most parts are interchangable with a few exceptions such as the intake maniford. I prefer the 351W over the 351C for this reason. The heads available for 351W will match any 351C head unless you are going to go balls out and rev the motor over 7000RPM. 351 Cleveland was an excellent motor and was the basis of what I consider the best small block motor ever built, the Boss 351. The big intake valves which were such a pig in the Boss 302 were a little better with the 351. A stock 4 bolt main 351 Cleveland is a pretty strong motor. The 90's saw the decline of the 351C in favor of the 351W in part due to the ease of sticking them in fox-bodied mustangs. The 351m/400 were low compression high decked motors made to pass the then emission requirements. They are crap and I would'nt buy one. As far as serious building, a 351 W is fine. My friend is running a 67 mustang with a stroked 351W in the high 9's in the 140mph range. |
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What I have heard is that the Windsor is basically a "bored out" 302. Same block, thinner wall to cooling jackets, not as reliable as the 302 but with a bit more power.... IIRC the 351W actually has a longer stroke than than the 302. A common mod was to put 351W heads on a 289/302 back in the day. |
Bore is the same between a 302 and 351W. 351 as you say has a longer stroke. We used to run 69 351W heads on small blocks before all the aftermarket heads became available. A very good head for a 302. |
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The 351W is desendent of the 221-260-289-302 small block with a taller deck height and a larger main bearing diameter, it has the same 4" bore as the 289 & 302. It also has a different firing order than the older small blocks, (in the 80's when the 302 became the 5.0 it got the 351w firing order). There is a lot of performance potential with this engine with all of the aftermarket heads and stroker kits, you can turn a 351W into a 427ci monster, check out Coast High Performance. The 351 Clevland was made just before Ford got out of racing and was very popular through the 70's since there was nothing better, there are parts available but there is alot more for the windsor. There were two types of american heads the 4 barrel variety with very large valves, ports and closed chambers, good for high rpm performance and the 2 barrel heads with smaller valves, ports, but open chambers, which a better for torque and street performance. There are also Australian head that have the smaller valves, ports, but the closed chambers, they are considered some of the best but are hard to come by. The cleveland was made in australia well into the 70's they also had the Falcon continue on, the MFP cars in Mad Max are Australian Falcons. The 400 and 351M were mainly truck engines that I don't know much about. Mustangs were my obsession before guns, I have a '65 w/ a 302, and my dad has a '68 with a 289, and his next project is a '67 Cougar that is pretty straight, rust free, the interior needs a little work, and there is no engine and transmission, but it had a 390/C6 so it still has the 9" and the factory front disks and I've pretty much got him talked into a 351W stroker with probably an AOD to get O/D.  I had a '92 F-150 w/ a 351w and I wasn't too impressed of course it had 130,000 on it when I got the truck and a 3.02:1 rear axle w/ the E4OD so it was a gutless wonder. Sorry for that being so long, I get carried away some times. |
| Thanks Atencio. It's been 30 years since I worked in a garage. My 64 1/2 Mustang coupe had a 289 block with 302 crank and pistons, Crane cam, 351W heads w/Crane roller rockers, Boss 302 distributor and oil pump, Edelbrock Torker manifold w/ Holley 780 carb, Hooker headers, top loader 4 speed w/Hurst Ram Shifter (vertical gate) and 4.11 posi. Those were the days. |
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A 351W is not even close to the same block as a 302. A 302 has an 8.2" deck height, a 351w has a 9.5" deck height and a 351c is not a big block and it comes in with a 9.2" deck height. The 351c was an awesome block in its day but the cylinder head technology for the 302/351w blocks of today makes them better choices IMHO. The 302 and 351W will both accept the same heads(diffrent size head bolts but they make adapter bolts or can be drilled out) and they both have a 4.002" bore to start with. The 302 has a 3" stroke and the 351w has a 3.5" stroke. The 351w blocks from around 69-74 are said to be stronger than there newer counterparts but they will not accept a roller cam without modification. The newer 351w blocks will accept roller cams but are considered weaker. A 351w block can handle 600-700hp reliably. A 302 block will eventually come apart once you start going much past the 500hp mark. I have a 92 mustang GT with a 302 in it, eventually I want to put a 351w based 408(4.032" bore x 4" stroke) stroker into it, maybe someday. The popular cheap 351w stroker is the 393w which is 4.032" bore with a 3.85" stroke, they are cheap because all you need is a 3.85" crank with .030 over 302 pistons and stock 351w rods. I have been spending money on guns right now though so no engine for me. :( |
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I've got a 400 (351M/400) in my 78 F150 Ranger. It has a lot of low end torque, no top end power, and is a major gas pig. I would get one only if I was going to swap it out in time. The good news is a 460 is a direct swap, since the 400 is based on a 460 block. A 500hp 460 is a fairly easy build and reasonably streetable. 
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+1. Atencio's post is pretty much dead on, particularly regarding the 351C/351W. On the subject of the 351M and 400 for engines. Sometime (in the 70s I believe) Ford "modified" the 351C design with a taller deck height to allow it go to 400ci. Rather than have two different block designs (and subsequently two types of intakes, brackets, etc.) for the 351C and the 400, they started building the 351ci (same bore/stroke as the 351C) engines on the new "modified" Cleveland block. While it made sense for Ford's logistics, it created alot of confusion. Since the only (major)difference between the 351M and 400 were the displacements, Ford simply printed one engine info/emissions tag to put under the hood for both engines. Hence 351M/400. I've asked quite a few people what engine they had and they proudly professed "it's a three fifty-one modified four hundred". This was on vehicles that had a 351M. When I ask them to enlighten me as to what this engine is they explain "well it's a 351 that they modified up to 400 cubic inches." Thus the mysterious 351M/400 engine joins the ranks of Hemi 440s, 3/4 race cams, and (you pick) the Jaguars/BMWs/Mercedes that were shipped to the US with the hoods welded shut since they never needed maintenance. BTW, the 351M or 400 engine can be decent engines. Their main hindrance was the era in which they were built. Smog pumps and low compression ratio's will kill just about anything. A good ground up build can make it a good performer. While it wouldn't be my first choice, and performance parts can be hard to come by, don't disregard it if you've already got one or the vehicle you're looking at has one. |