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AR15.COM
12/1/2004 11:07:43 AM EDT
Hey All,

On Question 1 of ATF form 4473, it asks if you (the buyer) are the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form.    I think I understand the spirit of the law, which is prevent string buys by people who couldn't pass the background check. Is that right?

Does this ban me from buying guns as presents for people? Nothing says Christmas like a Kimber in the stocking.

Would I actually be in violation if I bought a gun for my friend (who gave me money for the purchase) but my friend WOULD pass the background check? This would seem to be "letter of the law" violation, but not a violation of the spirit of the law.   Does anyone know of anyone who was actually prosecuted under these circumstances?

Just curious?

John K.

12/1/2004 11:09:49 AM EDT
[#1]
If somebody gives you money for a gun, then it isn't a gift and you are a criminal.
12/1/2004 11:11:17 AM EDT
[#2]
If it's a gift, then you are the actual buyer, and everything's cool, assuming you have no reason to believe the receiver would fail a background check.  If you're buying it for the specific purpose of immediately selling it to someone else, then that's a straw purchase and a big no-no, even if the person you're buying it for has never even gotten a parking ticket.
12/1/2004 11:12:50 AM EDT
[#3]
Buy the gun.

Take it to the range, and shoot it a time or two.

Let your friend 'try' it for $20.

Now that he's hooked and must have it, sell him the used gun for $20 less than you paid.
12/1/2004 11:14:50 AM EDT
[#4]

Would I actually be in violation if I bought a gun for my friend (who gave me money for the purchase) but my friend WOULD pass the background check?


My understanding is that this would be a straw purchase, vs buying the gun with your money and giving it to him as a present.  I am sure someone better versed in the details will be along to clarify if needed.

If your friend has given you money in advance to buy the gun, how could it be a present to him?
12/1/2004 11:17:04 AM EDT
[#5]
so simply buy the gun...
later sell it....

simple as that.





12/1/2004 11:18:24 AM EDT
[#6]

Quoted:
Buy the gun.

Take it to the range, and shoot it a time or two.

Let your friend 'try' it for $20.

Now that he's hooked and must have it, sell him the used gun for $20 less than you paid.



I would think this is an effective defense should the ATF ever get involved.  But I would still like to know  if anyone knows anyone who got prosecuted for a straw purchase for an otherwise upstanding citizen.    

I am in no way trying to say that it isn't a violation of the law (I understand it is), but I wonder if  straw purchases for background check passable persons ever get prosecuted.   Is it like putting the beer bottle in a paper bag and sitting on your front stoop?  




12/1/2004 11:21:17 AM EDT
[#7]

Quoted:

Would I actually be in violation if I bought a gun for my friend (who gave me money for the purchase) but my friend WOULD pass the background check?


My understanding is that this would be a straw purchase, vs buying the gun with your money and giving it to him as a present.  I am sure someone better versed in the details will be along to clarify if needed.

If your friend has given you money in advance to buy the gun, how could it be a present to him?



Sorry to be confusing, the present question was separate from the straw purchase question.   I think everyone agrees that if you buy a gun with your money and give the gun to someone else (someone who can legally own a gun), then its NOT a violation of Question 1 4473.
12/1/2004 11:23:03 AM EDT
[#8]
How the hell are they going to know?
12/1/2004 11:26:19 AM EDT
[#9]
if you are buying it for a gift, then you are the "actual buyer".
12/1/2004 11:26:33 AM EDT
[#10]
Lokk at a 4473, the instuctions on the back specifically address the gift issue. It is legal to buy a gun and give it as a gift.
12/1/2004 11:29:35 AM EDT
[#11]
you are paying for it so you are the buyer, if someone gave you the money and said buy this then you aren't the actual buyer.
12/1/2004 11:29:55 AM EDT
[#12]

Quoted:
Lokk at a 4473, the instuctions on the back specifically address the gift issue. It is legal to buy a gun and give it as a gift.


Beat me to it.
12/1/2004 11:31:05 AM EDT
[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Lokk at a 4473, the instuctions on the back specifically address the gift issue. It is legal to buy a gun and give it as a gift.


Beat me to it.



of course then they'll make sure and look at you real close.  Thats probably one of their red flag indicators.  Make sure you raise it for them.
12/1/2004 11:37:09 AM EDT
[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
Lokk at a 4473, the instuctions on the back specifically address the gift issue. It is legal to buy a gun and give it as a gift.


Beat me to it.



of course then they'll make sure and look at you real close.  Thats probably one of their red flag indicators.  Make sure you raise it for them.


12/1/2004 11:37:10 AM EDT
[#15]

Quoted:
How the hell are they going to know?



In the usual manner.  If your "friend" gets in a little trouble he will rat you out or your ex-wife or your ex-gf etc.  BATFE agents have been known to set up sting operations as well.
12/1/2004 11:48:33 AM EDT
[#16]

Quoted:
Lokk at a 4473, the instuctions on the back specifically address the gift issue. It is legal to buy a gun and give it as a gift.



There's a back to the form!!!!  I guess I should look.
12/1/2004 11:49:53 AM EDT
[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
How the hell are they going to know?



In the usual manner.  If your "friend" gets in a little trouble he will rat you out or your ex-wife or your ex-gf etc.  BATFE agents have been known to set up sting operations as well.



Good point.   I would never straw purchase for someone I didn't know (ATF agent).

12/1/2004 4:06:41 PM EDT
[#18]

Quoted:
If somebody gives you money for a gun, then it isn't a gift and you are a criminal.

+1
12/1/2004 4:10:15 PM EDT
[#19]
If you really want to follow the letter of the law. Do an FFL tfr to the person you are giving it to.
12/1/2004 4:21:41 PM EDT
[#20]

Quoted:

Would I actually be in violation if I bought a gun for my friend (who gave me money for the purchase)



That right there is the definition of a STRAW PURCHASE.  You do time in Uncle Sam's Big HOuse for that.