Posted: 11/19/2004 8:57:34 AM EDT
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For those in the know the problem isn't necessarily Islam (we don't have Muslims from Trinidad trying to kill people for example) but specifically Wahabi. Puritanical Saudi Islamic sect founded by Muhammad ibn-Abd-al-Wahab (1703–1792), which regards all other sects as heretical. By the early 20th century it had spread throughout the Arabian peninsula; it still remains the official ideology of the Saudi Arabian kingdom. Wahabi is responsible for nearly ALL the terrorism associated with Islam and Saudi Arabia, despite their official status as our "ally", is the number one promoter , teacher and primary source of Wahabi in the world. This makes Saudi the true epicenter of global Islamic terrorism in the world and it is obvious that they either cannot or are unwilling to take effective action to address this issue. So what should Bush (and the next administration) do to specifically address this issue? Note: As much as we might want to see a glass factory in Mecca let's keep this to real world suggestions that might actually happen. |
| Outsiders can do very little, since, by definition, Islam considers non-Islam people infidels - even if they don't believe in violence against them. The Muslim world has to rid itself of wahabism. It has thus far shown a reluctance to do so. Condemnation from Muslim leaders of other sects has been few and far between. So I honestly do not see a peaceful means of ending the Wahabism insanity. |
I agree with this analysis 100% The Saudi's Aka 'The JIhadi Export Company' ARE the root cause of the trouble. They sink Billions of PetroDollars into support and exporting the Wahabbi Doomsday Cult. The House of Saud needs to be 'reminded' that only US support keeps their heads on their shoulders. If they don't pack it in, then pick another more 'tolerant' Saudi clan and helpt them to oust the House of Saud in a coup. BTW… should the House of Saud fall to a fundamentalist revolt or Saudi devolve into Civil War. The 'West' aka the US& UK would roll in ASAP and grab the oilfields. That scenario is regularly 'wargamed'. ANdy |
Actually this is a very good point. The King of Jordan has historical legitamacy as the Hashemite's were the original Royal Family in the region. The House of Saud are interlopers who were given Saudi Arabia in 1922 as a reward for being pro western and backing the Arab Revolt against the Turks in WWI. This is the reason Jordan is such a stable and peaceful country, King Abdullah has the popular support of his people who regard him as their legitimate hereditary ruler… the only Arab ruler with this legitimacy in the entire region. Andy |
I saw a little documentary the other day that stated the two tribes of Nomads that united to form modern Saudi Arabia were the Tribe of Saud and the Tribe of Wahab. The decendants of the Saud Tribe are the ruling royal family now and the decendants of the Wahabs were and are now the majority of the religious leaders in the Saudi Kingdom. In more recent times, the two tribes had intermarried to the point where they became indistinguishable from each other. THAT little nugget sort of changes the playing field a bit as now we (USA) are no longer dealing with a monarchy with Islamic historical ties, but rather a theocracy rooted in idelogues that make the Taliban look like liberals! Expecting the Saudi royal famiy to do more than wring their hands at the terrorism flowing from their own country is like requesting that Texans renounce the Heros of the Alamo! Just simply not going to happen. I was on the fence regarding the Saudis and had accepted their official statements regarding their internal attempts to fight terrorists...but now knowing that they are Wahabbists by birth, by radicalism, by faith, by history, or by all of the above, I think we should stike at the true heart of IslamoWahhabist-Terror....Saudi Arabia. Mecca and Medina ... with ground troops and charge a toll on the haji. |
I agree with your analysis. Sadly, Bush knew all this (as if 9-11 didn't already point to Saudi Arabia)- and still chose to attack Iraq, one of the muslim countries with the least ties to 9-11, instead. Well, I guess the president has to think about his business connections. There is life after the presidency... 
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I'd really like to see us get off the Jones for Saudi Oil. Yes I drive a gas guzzling truck, so I could do more. The Saudi's fund terrorism/extremism with the oil money they get from us. So if we trace the buck we are round abt funding the terrorist we fight. I feel that if we leave them to themselves, they will kill each other. Then it would be easier to take on whomever is left. All this is much easier said than done though. My fear is that the Saudi's will fall while we're still fighting the good fight in Iraq & way too dependant on thier oil. How will our wargaming scenarios play out then? Good/tough question. I hope W has some really smart folks working on this one.... |
This makes our efforts to have at least one functioning democracy all the more critical. SA operates like a reservation for Wahabbis with the oil replacing casinos. These guys have a lot of time on their hands to pray. If they had a functioning economy rather than a national welfare system based on oil revenues you might see a more tolerant view of the world. I think they envision pulling the strings on the world's economies by controlling these large oil fields. The problem is they will not be good reliable business partners as they basically consder the rest of the world infidels and beneath them. They will incur the wrath of someone (like the Chinese) sooner or later and get more than they bargained for. I sense that's why the Iranians are after the nuclear solution. We pretty much have to keep after this, it's just gonna get worse if we don't keep the pressure on. |
www.insightmag.com/news/2003/01/07/World/The-World.Trinidad.And.Tobagoterrorists.Develop.Island.Operations-342431.shtml Oops, there goes Trinidad! |
How far do you think we would have gotten with UN resolutions against the Sauds ? I guess I missed the part where Saudi told the world how they were going to destroy us and spent who knows how much money on means to do so. The way I understand it, Sadam thought he had more in his programs than he did because the developers were too afraid to tell him otherwise. Personally I think that GW wouldn't give a rat's ass about "business connections" in this case either. There ARE people in this world that think and act without personal gain as a motivation too... unlike a certain former pres that opened his doublewide yesterday. |
Problem is most Jordanians support the crazy stuff the terrorists do. They want to see the West destroyed just as bad as any middle eastern muslim. |
Th Saudis oil field are all concentrated on the Persian Gulf Coast. Plans are in place to take these fields if the need arose. It would be a piece of cake. Hundred of miles of unhabited and waterless desert surrounding the fields and an easy assault route over beaches. Andy |
Problem is, we stop buying their oil. Our enemies get it. Its almost a catch 22. |
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I really believe it's time to end our dependence on foreign oil and the national interest dilemmas that go with it. There is no justafiable reason not to pursue a hydrogen fueled ecconomy. We have the technology, we have working models to begin the transition - all that it lacking is the national will to achieve such a goal. It's time that the President lay down the challenge, much as Kennedy did in the 1960's regarding landing on the moon. Make this a national priority and America will respond. There is no technological advancement that America has failed to achieve when it has set it's national will to the task. We can beat this and create a whole new set of rules for how we deal with the rest of the world...especially the middle east. No more petro dollars for weapons, no more petro dollars for terrorists. |
And then the creation of a new country on that predominantly uninhabited desert. My only fear is that we've sold the Saudi's some pretty good equipment over the years. I'd hate to see the USMC & RN's Harriers have to deal with F-15's. And the F/A-18's on the carriers aren't going to fare much better. Of course, the USAF might take those fighters out on the ground, and solve the whole problem. Otherwise, the Marines need to secure an airfield FAST, or there could be some heavy casualties. |
Frankly, I see no other choice, and if there was one, I don't think it could be anywhere near as satisfactory in it's over all outcome. The Saudi's would be the first of several. |
Are you seriously suggesting the Muslim population of Trinidad poses a viable threat?!? Tim McVeigh blew up the Federal building, by your analysis US gunowners are a similar threat. |
Absolutely there are other kinds of Islamic terrorist just as there is such a thing as a Baptists terrorists. But when one particular sect accounts for nearlly all global terrorism you want to start there. |
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The majority of Saudis don't like us or want us there. I saw that personally while there for DS/DS. In the smaller cities we drove through, we weren't warmly greeted. If the Saudis fall into civil war, the worst thing we can do is intervene. The soldiers and marines getting blown up would be nothing to what would happen if we went in there. We would be crazy to get involved in a religious civil war. |
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My understanding is that we do not have oil reserves under the ground to carry on without importing OIL. I also understand that we have huge reserves of natural gas. Here. On US soil. I further understand that conventional gasoline engines can be reconfigured to use Natural gas; I would think that this would be an expensive solution, but not as expensive as changing over to engines that use hydrogen. What is the problem; why aren't we moving on this??? |
The only problem with switching to natural gas is supply. Yeah, for now we have an abundant supply, but it's not cost effective in the long run to re-tool everything to run on a non-renewable energy source. The conversion from a gasoline engine to a hydrogen powered engine is not as difficult as has been reported. There are working models out there today, but without a vested interest from Detroit and certainly none from the oil companies. This is so well known there was even a spot on NPR of all places where a reporter investigated a claim by an inventor to have a working hydrogen car on the road. Not only was it true, but it performed as well as the car had when set up to run on gasoline. The inventor said that he had gotten little to no interest from potential financial backers despite the fact that the conversion was cost effective. And how's this for a potentially renewable fuel.... H2O |
Dont worry these asshats suck. I'm over here now "teaching" these guys how to fly their jets, they suck. As fas as the Saudi situation I don't believe the royal family will fall anytime soon. Their regular mlitary sucks ass, AF and Army. The real money goes to OPMSANG- the royals guards, who are loyal to the royal family (the other military). They could kick the shit out of the "reg military" If the SHTF over here I would guess the Royal family would pull chocks( take a rest in the US) and let the rest of the kingdom shrival and die. 99% of these assholes love to sit on their asses all day and drink tea, pretty much do nothing. The only good thing is that "most" officers in the military have been schooled in the west and they are very opened minded, not like the terrorist sumbitches. I do have to give them (the saudi family) some credit. They are trying to clean up some of their shit. They have capped a lot of terrorist in the last year. Primarily due to the fact that they had been attacking the Royal family intrest. If they would go after all of them vs. just the ones they are pissed at it wold be a different situation. Just my observations |
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Are you seriously suggesting the Muslim population of Trinidad poses a viable threat?!? i'm suggesting that ANY muslim with a koran wedged up his ass and a hatred for america is an enemy. east asia...the phillipines...the middle east...europe...i don't care where they come from. if they show the slightest hint of going for the virgins, they need their asses handed to them. i'm sick of this good muslim/bad muslim shit. i sure as hell ain't seen many good ones lately and i'm getting less inclined to waste my time trying to figure which is which every day. read the thread on the boy that they whipped to death in iran? persian muslims...arab muslims...asian muslims...there seems to be little difference in their goals or their sharia. |
Good to hear. I knew what they had, and was worried about that... But if they suck, then they aren't going to be as much of a threat. |
Its not like I'm going to teach them anything worthwhile. Just the basics, thats it. |
I "think" the plan is to exhaust the Middle Eastern oil supply (it is finite) and then we, and the former USSR, will have the largest fossil fuel reserves left. This would of course collapse the economies of the entire Middle East. Anyone know when they are due to run dry? Will it even be in the next 100 years? |
No argument there. But like I said we have a major culprit in Saudi Wahabi. Also the other Muslims aren't "all" terrorists anymore than all southern Baptists bomb abortion clinics. Thus they are not all the enemy and we should make that distinction. Now many of them can be quite uncivilized even if they aren't terrorists. And those should simply be ignored. I don't want our country to run around the globe and try and civilize the savages at the cost of US lives. If they aren't a civilized, evolved people at this stage in the game they never will be and we should simply not deal with them in any way, shape or form. |
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general rant (possibly triggered by the boy getting flogged to death) you can 'ignore me' all you want as i try to cave in your face. sooner or later, i guarandamntee you that you're gonna get pissed off and start trying to kick me ass. we tried to ignore hitler...and he was real 'civilized'. so was tojo, as he raped his way across china while we 'ignored' him. the kaiser...stalin, all those that we ignored came back to bite our ass. i agree, the wahabis are screwed up bastages, but so are the rest of them. i would preferred you to have said, "not all nazi's were concentration camp goons.". comparing southern baptists to muslims? in any event, the percentage of s.b.'s that support someone like eric rudolph is minute. the percentage of muslims that support jihad is significant...and it is not just among wahabis. that attitude i rampant from egypt anf tunisia to morroco to syria to chechnaya to indonesia to the phillipines to yeman to oman to azerbeijan. our enemies are many, in nationality, but only ONE in religion! let's play the odds here... you drop me off in the most southern baptist area of your town at 10pm. i'll drop you off in the LEAST wahabist area of mosul, jenene, tikrit, kandahar, etc...and let's see who lives to see the sun rise. wahabists suck...that much i'll grant you. so do 95% of the rest of them as far as i'm concerned. first, we blamed that damned osama. then the wahabists are just another bogeyman in the chain. back in the 1980 we blamed ayatollah komeihni. i know where the buck stops and i'm not afraid to call it like i see it. i ain't the ben laden clan. it ain't al zaqarwi. it ain'y the blind cleric. it isn't the mullahs of iran. it's the whole damn sticking lot of stuck-in-the-13th century morons. in america, it's 'popular' that your enemy has a name...a description. we've always been that way...whether it was the that "dirty j**' or 'hun' or 'red pinko commie stalinist' or godless chinese...we always have a name. this time, let's not be so p.c. and call it like it really is. and let's get the enemy accurately defined. who was that old greek that went around with his lantern, looking for an honst man? well, you guys keep looking for those good ones. me? i'm just gonna keep cheering every time i read about one of them that got bitch slapped to go see allah when he tried to ram a convoy with his bomb-car or lay another i.e.d. in the sand. |
Ahh but Hitler was a threat to us as well. I was speaking of uncivilized places like Somalia. I don't wanna try and fix them and they will never be a viable threat to us.
OK, you're getting confused. I said Wahabi IS the problem, but Islam is not. And I used S.B.s as an example because OBVIOUSLY they are not all clinic bombers. But to use your example, you can drop an American nearly ANY PLACE in Trinidad and they will be fine.
If you want to hate ALL of them that is fine. Many did that in WWII with the Japanese and the Nisei Division shamed us. |
Oh geez. Where to begin. Lets start with you apparently don't know a damn thing about physics, chemistry or energy. You can't burn H2O. It's already been burned or oxidized. That's where the "O" comes from. The reason why Detroit and the fuel companies aren't that interested in hydrogen cars is COST. Our transportation grid and infrastructure is already optimized for liquid gas delivery. You would essentially have to reproduce that entire infastructure for a hydrogen based infrastructure. Not cheap. So, lets say Ford gets all excited about an H2 based vehicle. Who will buy them? And if they buy them, where will they get fuel? Unfortunately, it ain't as easy as filling up with water. Wrong side of the chemical reaction gradient I'm afraid. Same thing with Mobile-Texaco. Lets say they get behind the non-existent fuel bandwagon and start putting hydrogren pumps at all their fuel stations. They will lose money hand over fist because there are no vehicles to pump them into. In short, no one has any real economic incentive. If there is any conspiracy, it's called capitalism and the recognition of a losing business venture when you see one. Oh yeah, all of our hydrogen fuel sources...guess where they come from? Hint: it ain't H2O. Answer: oil. The same place we get gasoline. There is no net gain in the oil importation equation. Furthermore, half of our imported oil goes to generate electricity, not drive our cars. There are also all sorts of practical problems when it comes to H2 or CH4 vs gasoline, like containment and explosion risk. The only long term out for energy production is massive solar arrays deployed in orbit. Until we get to that point, we can rely on nuclear energy and coal. The Germans were able to turn coal into gasoline. At some point we may have to do the same. |
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1. I say we seize as many saudi oil fields as we can. Why? Because that's how they make their money, and that money is then used to fund terrorists all over the world. If they don't like it, just kill them in mass quantities until they understand that it's now our oil. 2. We need to go crazy with nuke power here in America. Nuclear is the way to go. It should really help our oil dependence problems if we can start relying heavily on the nuke. "But what about all of that nasty waste? Where are we going to put it?" Well, if you look at point number one, you'll notice the Saudis will be hurting for some cash. Maybe they'd be willing to rent us some storage fields for our nuke waste. And if they aren't willing, then I say we dump it on them anyway, and let them suck it up. They made their bed, let them lay in it. |
it was our oil to begin with, we found it and got it out of the ground for them. when they nationalized the oil companies we should have gone in and kicked the shit out of them it seems to be the only thing they understand. it's not a coincidence that the regimes over there are all despotic. |
Actually BMW built a Hydrogen prototype but it was extremely complex and as you noted has the capacity to do a Glock impression KABOOOM.  But there actually is an upside between the two in that the emission is basically steam. |
Agreed........we have to do it anyway.......China's economy is booming and automobile ownership is skyrocketing.........demand is about to go way up in the next ten years with supply remaining the same.....you do the economics........If we can limit their funds we will hurt them severly......Saudis have very few other sources of income. |