I care a helluva lot more about Ruby Ridge
than David and his sheep.

In both cases it was a TAX violation that the feds were trying to enforce. Will anybody agree that killing people over a tax violation is a little extreme. By the way the violation was having an unregistered weapon falling under the 1934 MG. control act. THEY DID NOT PAY THE 200.00 TRANSFER TAX. Now I want anybody to say, that is a good thing.

yah, waco was some f*cked up religious shit. when a group like that takes arms to further a religous cause, its bound for trouble. they wanted to kill police and i dont feel bad for tehm at all, nor do i lose sleep over how their situtation was handled.

No matter what David and his people were supposed to have done or didn't do there is no excuse for the goverment to use force when it wasn't necessary. A lot of innocent people were killed there.This country has a way of over doing it. The bond riots after WW1, Kent State, Ruby Ridge, Waco etc.

It is not Iowa, he never got his head out of his
rectum![8]

Your a 100% right. How can people forget that are own government turned it's arms against it's own veterans. For them to do that, then burning alive Women & Children must of not even crossed their minds twice.

I guess I'm wrong but I thought this country still had Freedom Of Religion.

Just don't believe what the media feeds you. research both sides of the story then make you conclussions from thier. So many lost souls in this country, they let other people make up their minds for them. Don't just jump on the band wagon because you need to feel included. Sheeple will never wake up if they can't think on their own.

Um...

Wasn't THIS country founded by religious men with guns?

.

I don't care about any of it!  Both groups had their chance to give up.  I know, I Know, they shot randy weavers dog, wife, and son.  I'm not taking sides here but maybe they wouldn't have died had he gone to court and proved his innocents instead of holding up at his house.  David Koresh could have walked out at any moment.  


Both of these situations could have been handled different by both sides.  It is tragic anytime innocent people die.  Sorry but if the cops are knocking at my door I'm going to answer.  The only people that hide are the people that have something TO hide.  If you people want to get pissed off about something it should be when then sent SWAT after that little Cuban boy down in Florida.  Now that was overkill!!!  

[img]http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1719012&a=13212951&p=50233189[/img]

If you read about a lot of the founding fathers, you will find that more than a few of them were Unitiarians (I'm sure I misspelled this), and while I have no ill feeling towards them or any other religion, and I'm NOT KIDDING, the fact is they do not have to have any beliefs in Jesus or even a higher being. So let's not be to carried away with the religious leanings of the founding fathers. They did incorporate it in their papers, to the delight of the religious populas, they were politicians. They did believe in guns and the right of the people to protect themselves from the government and today they are being proven right. Thomas Jefferson has quite a few quotes reguarding firearm ownership that Bill Clinton and Al Gore et al must try their hardest to ignore. It won't be long for the history books to be "updated."

Bill

Happiness is awarm gun...
Bang bang, shoot shoot...

Quote from mattsd -

If they wanted to kill police they sure missed a golden opporunity when they failed to use the Barrett M82A1 they possessed to 'sweep away' those pesky ATF agents who were firing away at their CHURCH, willy-nilly.

Hide behind the trucks and cattle trailers? It ain't gonna do you a lick of good.

No one doubts that the initial ATF raid was a royal cluster f***, both tactically and legally.  As the Waco jury found at the later trial of the surviving Davidians, the ATF was just as responsible for the shootout as were the Davidians. The affidavit for the search warrant was a rambling, disjointed, error plagued, stale POS that any first year ID Office attorney could have bounced.  Thankfully, from the government's point of view, the David Aguilera affidavit never became an issue in the trial.

I mean, just what was ATF doing out there on that early Sunday morning at the Davidian CHURCH? Were they peacefully executing a search and serving an arrest warrant in a manner that was reasonably calculated to assure a peaceful compliance?

No. As they admitted at the Congressional Hearings on the subject, they didn't have any method of telling the dynamic entry team entering into the 'tower' that the warrants were being peacfully executed at the front door.

Meaning that the dramatic footage we see of the agents on the roof, smashing the window and ripping out the blinds, prior to their dynamic entry into the tower would have occurred even if David K. had met the ATF on the steps of the CHURCH with outstretched hands and cups of coffee and donuts all around.

Why wouldn't he?   That's the way he met the McClendon County Sheriff on occasions. And the way he invited the ATF agents Aguilera and Skinner over to the CHURCH while he was on the phone with Henry McMahon. 'Course they didn't come and get a free 'look see' at whatever guns David K. possessed, and, just think, they wouldn't have even needed a search warrant for such a consensual, voluntary search.

At this point we can either figure the greatest incompetence in the history of law enforcement
or a criminal conspiracy of a vast magnitude!

Just imagine all the people who would be alive today if the ATF had [b]either[/b] arrested Koresh in 1992 [b]or[/b] dropped their investigation of him and his CHURCH in that year altogether.

Let's see, four ATF agents, six Davidians on February 28, 1993, eighty more Davidians on April 19, 1993, one hundred sixty-eight Oklahomans on April 19, 1995, for a total of
[b]two hundred fifty-eight poor souls[/b].

Whoops, better add one more on June 11, 2001!
[b]Two hundred fifty-nine[/b].  All alive but for the....

Eric The(HelpMeLord)Hun[>]:)]
   

David Koresh could have been picked up at anytime. Did everyone forget they he drove into town regularly? They didn't just want the man by himself, that would leave all his followers with a reason to do God knows what in trying to Free him or clear his name. The government took the whole compound on to put an end to them once & for all "BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY"

Just because we live in America doesn't mean act against the people by the government can't or won't happen

In that case, why don't you post your name, address, telephone number, place of employment, serial number and descriptions of all weapons you own, names of all children and your spouse, et cetera.

[B]Everyone[/B] has something to hide. That's what free men call privacy.

Would you feel any diffrent if the feds came to your house and killed your wife because a piece of steel or wood was shorter than the feds decided it should be,or burned your house down and killed anyone who tried to escape over a supposed tax liability ? I think not!
The loss of life on both sides of this issue is something that should NEVER have happened.
Is McVeigh to blame? For his part,yes. But what about Lon Horiuchi? should he be held accountable when his teammates refused to follow the f*&*cd ur ROE? again,yes. What about Janet(come out,come out or we'll burn you out) Reno? Shee had ultimate authority in Ruby Ridge and Waco. No charges against her,Hell she's thinking of running for Gov of florida.
[:X*]

Sounds like f*cked up ignorance to me.

If "they wanted to kill police", why did they accept a ceasefire after the ATF ran out of ammo? Have you even seen the news footage of the ATF RETREATING like a defeated army? The Davidians could have easily wiped them out if they truly "wanted to kill police" as you say.

No, this country was not founded by religious
men. They were fleeing the religious freaks
in England because of religion and taxes.
Over there it was forced.
Is'nt it great not HAVING to go to church?
You think so? Try being a politician, try
getting elected, all while not going to church.
Depends on your job here in the States. Some
jobs DEMAND you attend a church.
How many Governors or Mayors (big city) do
you think do not attend a church?
They have to, or would never get elected.
Who would you vote for? A church goer or non-
church goer?

Whoa, wait a minute, jewbait, it was a felony in Massachusetts not to attend church on Sundays up until the 1820s, long after the nation had been established.

The correct answer is that our country was founded by religious nuts with guns. BTW, that is lifted from P. J. O'Rourke.

The Pilgrims in Massachusetts?  The Catholics in Maryland? William Penn and the Quakers in Pennsylvania?

The Puritans in New England were not religious nuts? I don't think so either, glad we agree.

Eric The Hun[>]:)]

Yes they were religious, but not in the same way or style as where they fled from. alot of them came here to practice religion the way they saw fit not the way their homeland saw fit.can you imagine being tought as a criminal(and punished) because you didn't want to follow someone else's beliefs?

A misjustice or threat to any man is a threat to  justice for us all. I'm not sure where I heard that maybe M.L. King?

very true, but how about even futher back in time when they used to burn people alive because they tought certain persons were witches!

You can always tell who the militant atheists are.  They gloat publically over examples of imperfect Christianity while remaining silent about other religions.  At first blush, this would appear to be irrational, but it isn't.   You have to understand that "the devil doesn't attack the devil".

Hearing people say that Randy Weaver and the Branch Davidians were responsible for their respective predicaments makes me retch.  Both cases involved enforcement of blatantly unconstitutional laws in an extremely violent manner.  This is America, not nazi Germany.  Being secure in our posessions and our homes is our birthright.  YOU are the nutcase if you think that being machineguned over a $200 tax matter is appropriate.  Respect for the law can only come about with the passage of respectful laws.  Until this occurs, fedgov can place the blame on its own shoulders.


“Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy to his country." John Witherspoon, a signer of the Declaration of Independence and president of the College of New Jersey (now Princeton University).

Maybe my understanding of the Declaration of Independence is flawed, but wasn't the intent of "Freedom of Religion" statement to get away from state sponsored religion, like was in existence in England at that time?

Isn't that the true intent "separation of church and state" concept, i.e. the state can't tell you what religion, if any, to choose?

NYshooter - you hit the nail right on the head. The "spirit" of religion is forcing others to believe as you do.
John the Baptist and Jesus both were against that junk.

SSgt D: You da man!!!

Oh, DO tell us what other groups you would not be upset to see the extermination of.

We have laws in this country that say that CRIMINALS get the benefit of a trial, and a chance to present evidence favorable to them. NOT just a summary execution by jack booted thugs.

Sorry, but yours is perhaps the MOST ignorant post ever made in this forum. Congratulations.

The separation of powers act did not assure freedom from religion is assured freedom of religion and a separation of power between the two. The church leaders have no power over the government and the government has no power to restrict the church. Also that their would be no official government denomination. Most the signers where Christians but from many different denominations (Mostly Quaker, Presbyterian and Lutheran). In court they swore on the Christian bible and in congress and the House of Representatives they start with prayer each morning and do the same in every state house also. In most states you had to at least state a belief in God or you could not register to vote in the 17-1800’s and the signers of the constitution did not consider it unconstitutional.


When you read about the songs they sang while they marched or their favorite battle cry “No king but King Jesus!” it is evident that they where Christian. Or the writings of Thomas Paine that rallied the nation to continue the to fight because God meant man to be free. Or if you read the end of the Declaration of Independence there is little doubt that these men believed in God.  

It always amazes me how ignorant your average atheist is.

THISISME

good god, settel down. i dont know every thing about the waco thing, cause i dont care, i guess thats what i was trying to say with the first post.

thebeekeeper1, You are right. The public schools do leave a lot of history out of history. You almost have to buy old books just to get an accurate account of our nations struggle for independence.

I guess I should have said. it always amazes me how atheists act as if they know everything when they have done no independent study of the facts of the history they are speaking of. They are ignorant of anything the public schools have not taught them.

On the Waco subject I would recommend the uninitiated go rent or preferably by “Waco Rules of Engagement” and “Waco a New Revelation” you will be shocked at what your government can and does do.

THISISME

You don't know, you don't care, but you still chose to run your mouth off anyway.

Maybe free speech isn't such a good thing after all. [/sarcasm]

Of course, you're too much of a man to APOLOGIZE for indicating that it was OK by you that they all burned and died a horrendous death.

You don't know, you don't care, but you still chose to run your mouth off anyway.

Maybe free speech isn't such a good thing after all. [/sarcasm]

Of course, you're too much of a man to APOLOGIZE for indicating that it was OK by you that they all burned and died a horrendous death.

Make sure that the media has your AR15.com name so that after the JBT burns down your house and turns you into a crispy critter, I can make sure I don't care about you either.

And YES - that IS an intentional double tap.


Hey Imbrog|io -

Wanna roast some marshmallers over mattsd's firebombed house???

[}:D]

Hello. I'm from the federal gubmint. I am here to put out the fire I am just about to start.

Eric The(FlipMeOverI'mDone)Hun[>]:)]

Check this out... an interesting perspective on this whole pice of $hit situation.  And so I ask the same question as this article:  How DO you differentiate?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2001/06/11/sorensen.DTL

what information do you have that the davidians wanted to kill police? what religous cause were they championing? to commit terroists acts against those who beleived differently?

It goes beyond religion, it goes beyond gun control politics, it even goes beyond statist philosophy. It call comes down to this: if you build a fortress within the borders of a government, that government will eventually find a reason to storm it.

On the surface, Waco looks like a religious issue, but it is not.  It is an issue of basic freedoms which the outcome of affects us all!  These basic freedoms include Freedom of Religion, and Freedom of Speech, which even though the government would like to regulate, they cannot.

Both Ruby Ridge and Waco were issues of taxation; government imposing taxes infringing on our 2nd Amendment rights.  

SOL

Hey everybody cal down I just called the FBI to settle this once and for all.  They told me that it never happened, that the video footage we saw was from south america.  They said that it was all fake, but if it wasn't then they deffinatley didn't fire a single shot.  They also asked for my name and address.  Hey is that gas I smell?  AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!![pyro]

Just a couple questions. What was the search warrant for? Automatic weapons? Silencers? Grenades? All of the above? Did they find,or,claim to find any of the above? Any evidence to support or refute?

Actually that would be two questions. Yes, they were searching for all of the above.  No, there has been no definitive evidence that any of these items were ever there.  Except maybe in the wild imaginations of the ATF.  As for those defending the actions of the government.  The warrant was blatantly illegal, therefore every action taken after the fact should be suspect.  They had no right to be there in the first place.

you'll make a fine nazi someday.

Again, see Waco, 1993.