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Posted: 6/11/2001 4:53:02 PM EDT
[#1]
Doesn't suprise me with all the sillyness going on in the country.
I'm proud they said they would not take off part of their uniforms or add unmilitary clothing to them. |
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Posted: 6/11/2001 4:53:43 PM EDT
[#2]
Yep, saw it the other day. Well that's zero intelligence, er, I mean zero tolerance for ya!
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Posted: 6/11/2001 4:54:19 PM EDT
[#3]
I dunno...
I work for a large defense contractor and the service personnel I know put on civilian attire any chance they get. [;D] |
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Posted: 6/11/2001 10:43:03 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: I dunno... I work for a large defense contractor and the service personnel I know put on civilian attire any chance they get. [;D] Fresh outta basic and shot in the ass with the Corps? |
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Posted: 6/11/2001 10:50:29 PM EDT
[#5]
yep... just another harbinger of the downfall of society...
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Posted: 6/12/2001 2:35:20 AM EDT
[#6]
And to think, some people actually think this country has a future.
Silly people. |
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Posted: 6/12/2001 7:57:45 AM EDT
[#7]
Yah got to respect them young Marines.
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Posted: 6/12/2001 8:02:26 AM EDT
[#8]
From the article....
[i] ELKHART, Ind. -- Two Marines were turned away from their high school graduation ceremony because they arrived wearing military uniforms. Elkhart Memorial High School officials said Pfc. David Hobbs and Pvt. Josh Beam violated responsibility agreements for graduation [/i][b]both had signed [/b] [i]that described what students were to wear.[/i] Hate to play devils advocate, but.... ...if they both signed an agreement, then tough turkey. BE MORE CAREFUL WHAT YOU SIGN. |
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Posted: 6/12/2001 8:07:36 AM EDT
[#9]
I need to take two pills now. Even I respect the Marine Corps.
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Posted: 6/12/2001 10:59:37 AM EDT
[#10]
That just ain't right. As far as I am concerned, they could not have been better dressed if they were wearing tuxedos.
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Posted: 6/12/2001 11:09:40 AM EDT
[#11]
I have great respect for the Marine Corp ...but... I thought that Marines were supposed to be disciplined, respectfull and were taught to obey orders. I actually agree with the school. This is just another example of the current crop of spoiled brats that refuse to respect authority and follow simple instructions. I guess that their ego's and desire to stand out in a crowd, outweigh the needs of the school and their fellow graduates.
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Posted: 6/12/2001 11:23:06 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: I have great respect for the Marine Corp ...but... I thought that Marines were supposed to be disciplined, respectfull and were taught to obey orders. I actually agree with the school. This is just another example of the current crop of spoiled brats that refuse to respect authority and follow simple instructions. I guess that their ego's and desire to stand out in a crowd, outweigh the needs of the school and their fellow graduates. BULLSHIT!! A soldier on active duty is more than within his rights to wear his uniform to a function of this nature. As a matter of fact when i was in the army it was encouraged. Those Marines should be proud of what they accomplished and should be held up as role models for that school. |
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Posted: 6/12/2001 11:31:41 AM EDT
[#13]
They earned the right to wear that uniform, and the fact that they were on active duty, though on leave, gives them authority to wear it. Dress blues are authorized for such occasions, and I think the school officials have their heads up their respective asses. And I'd like to help put them there, literally.
I went through a lot of crap when I was a DEP poolee in high school, and was nominated to the Naval Academy, both from students and staff. One of the worst people I had to deal with was a gym teacher. Liked to call me "baby killer." But the Marine Captain in charge of officer recruitment for my district was at my graduation, and presented me with my Marine Corps NROTC scholarship. That made me prouder than getting my diploma, and all the folks who gave me crap had to sit there and take it. This issue is effed up, and there is NO denying that. Semper Fi! Ken Little |
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Posted: 6/12/2001 11:36:11 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: I have great respect for the Marine Corp ...but... I thought that Marines were supposed to be disciplined, respectfull and were taught to obey orders. I actually agree with the school. This is just another example of the current crop of spoiled brats that refuse to respect authority and follow simple instructions. I guess that their ego's and desire to stand out in a crowd, outweigh the needs of the school and their fellow graduates. Crap ... the marine dress uniform is a lot better than how most kids dress for their graduation...and so what if they want to "STAND OUT" |
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Posted: 6/12/2001 11:41:27 AM EDT
[#15]
Remember when they booed the boyscouts at the DNC?
[url]http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=13201[/url] |
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Posted: 6/12/2001 12:04:30 PM EDT
[#16]
You are MISSING THE POINT, people.
THEY, the Marines THEMSELVES, signed an agreement as to what they would wear. Their dress uniforms were in VIOLATION of the agreement THEY SIGNED. Or is violating your OWN word now OKAY for Marines???? The time to address the specifics of the dress uniform as it violated the policy that they SIGNED was at the time of signing the agreement - NOT at the graduation. I respect the Marines, but maybe these two toy soldiers just got a little dose of reality, and what it means to honor your word. Or maybe not, as you people don't seem to think the violation the agreement these two children signed is important, or noteworthy. Duty, HONOR, Country. Sound familiar??? |
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Posted: 6/12/2001 12:10:51 PM EDT
[#17]
GM ...how many times have young people signed something because it was a "technicality" plus the little contract was kinda bunk if it dosnt reconize military dress uniforms its not like they were trying to wear gang colors...have you never bent a rule on something this trivial.
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Posted: 6/12/2001 12:20:45 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: GM ...how many times have young people signed something because it was a "technicality" FAR TOO MANY TIMES. And its given kids the impression that they can agree to something, accept the benefits of what they agreed to, then reneg on their agreement, and NOT have to pay ANY consequences. And you applaud it. Unbelievable. Quoted: plus the little contract was kinda bunk if it dosnt reconize military dress uniforms Would you care to cite some legal precedent or anything of substance that a contract is voidable if it doesn't recognize military dress uniforms?? That statement is laughable on its face. Quoted: its not like they were trying to wear gang colors... True enough. Gang members know to keep their word - or DIE for violating it. Quoted: have you never bent a rule on something this trivial. I've done it enuf times. And I was WRONG EVERY time I did it. But more to the point, ANY TIME you give your word, it is NEVER trivial. It's this attitude that views giving your word or signing an agreement as "trivial," that makes a President boldfaced lying to the nation an acceptable thing. Sorry, but it AIN'T. |
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Posted: 6/12/2001 12:24:28 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: You are MISSING THE POINT, people. THEY, the Marines THEMSELVES, signed an agreement as to what they would wear. Their dress uniforms were in VIOLATION of the agreement THEY SIGNED. Or is violating your OWN word now OKAY for Marines???? The time to address the specifics of the dress uniform as it violated the policy that they SIGNED was at the time of signing the agreement - NOT at the graduation. G-man First, I'm sure that they were "forced" into signing the document. They had to sign to take place in grad. No exceptions. Secondly, i'm sure most people feel the intent of the dress code was to prevent kids from showing up looking like bums or in disrespectfull attire. They did not violate this intent. Maybe they violated the letter of the law, but not the spirit. Besides, should you need a lawyer to check the fine print of a stupid graduation contract? its anal. What i think probably happened is that some sheeperson or soccer mom saw these boys in their marine uniforms and thought military=guns=violence which is a nono at school. Then they made a big stink about it. I mean what rational person would really care? In the end, its just mean spirited and a lack of common sense. Not surprisngly though. |
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Posted: 6/12/2001 12:34:57 PM EDT
[#20]
GM . im not saying that Marines shouldnt follow a signed contract hell think of there military contracts ...what i meant by bunk was like CalGat said the intent..i would like to think the intent of the contract was to keep kids from showing up in white tee shirts and ripped jeans..not to dis-allow military dress uniforms. and by "trival" its a matter of intent. it wasnt like they were trying to get out of a dept or an obligation..they wanted to show pride and because of a school rule they couldnt...yeah maybe they shouldnt have signed the paper but come on a marine uniform.........
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Posted: 6/12/2001 12:41:42 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: G-man First, I'm sure that they were "forced" into signing the document. They had to sign to take place in grad. No exceptions.. Yes, and the school has the right to do that. But that is besides the point. What these Marines should have done is gone to school administration LONG BEFORE graduation, and hashed out the issue. I'll BET the administration would have agreed to it. But they didn't. So the agreement they signed stands. Quoted: Secondly, i'm sure most people feel the intent of the dress code was to prevent kids from showing up looking like bums or in disrespectfull attire. They did not violate this intent. Maybe they violated the letter of the law, but not the spirit.. Now THERE is a slippery slope for us all to go careening down. "But officer, the INTENT of the speed limit was to keep traffic accidents from happening. Sure I was going 85 MPH in a 25 MPH zone, but did an accident happen?? NO. So I was clearly within the intent of the law." Laws are made up of words. Words are made up of letters. When we start rulign by "intent," and NOT the letter of the law, the Rule of Law goes out the window. Isn't the "Rule of Law" what we were all biotching at Clinton about?? Consistency, people. Quoted: Besides, should you need a lawyer to check the fine print of a stupid graduation contract? its anal. . No, you shouldn't. But these two youngsters just got an INVALUABLE lesson about REAL LIFE. Watch what you sign, and show a little fore sight to think what lies down the road. Its part of the process of going from childhood, TO adulthood. What scares me is that SO MANY of you want to let them off the hook, and rob them of this lesson. It is the Liberal mindset that says "Awww, shucks, you don't have to honor your word." I don't care how "anal" it looks - a man's word is his bond. A Marine ought to know that. Duty. HONOR. Country. NO EXCEPTIONS. |
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Posted: 6/12/2001 12:42:39 PM EDT
[#22]
We are going down hill fast.
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Posted: 6/12/2001 12:47:45 PM EDT
[#23]
This is the kind of thing that happens in our zero tolerance, throw common sense out the window, politically correct socialist regime. It seems to me the document was there to stop somebody from showing up in jeans and a T-shirt, or clown costume. I will agree that it is a slippery slope, and if you allow a dress uniform then why disallow a guy in a dress. Those marines worked hard to earn that uniform, and it should be respected. The school should be proud to have these young men attend their graduation in uniform. They earned it.
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Posted: 6/12/2001 12:50:48 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Those marines worked hard to earn that uniform, and it should be respected. The school should be proud to have these young men attend their graduation in uniform. They earned it. And a BIG part of respecting the uniform would include honoring your word. |
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Posted: 6/12/2001 1:20:12 PM EDT
[#25]
Folks,
Every been invited to a formal Military Function ? At the bottom of the invetation it will specify the appropriate dress, ie; for military: Dress Blues, Dress Whites, Class A, etc. Civilian: Black Tie, buisness Suit, Casual. Military Dress Blues are the equivelent of Black Tie in the civilain world. These kids broke no contract nor went back on their word. They were overdressed. Had they worn tuxedos should they not have been allowed to participate because cumberbuns were not listed in the "contract". Just another example of the attitude of "Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and dogs KEEP OFF THE GRASS" |
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Posted: 6/12/2001 1:27:43 PM EDT
[#26]
You know, somebody else commented that these young Marines wouldn't have been better dressed if they were wearing tuxedos. Most tuxedoes don't have a tie, so if anybody showed up wearing a tux they'd have been kicked out too.
The 'problem' for these Marines is that they joined the wrong service. The other branches incude ties as a part of the dress uniform, so a person wearing Air Force or Army Class As would be OK. I didn't walk with my high school class and don't see why anybody would consider it to be a big deal anyway. Those Marines have already attended the important graduation, the one at Camp Pendleton. |
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Posted: 6/12/2001 1:33:11 PM EDT
[#27]
I think this thread is illustrative of the martyr complex we TOO OFTEN show in these issues.
NO DOUBT THAT.... Conservative are treated like Nazis, and Our soldiers are treated worse that step-children, and... Taxpayers are treated like the gov't personal slaves, but.... This particular issue is cut and dried. They agreed to something. Now they want to go back on their word. It REALLY is THAT simple. |
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Posted: 6/12/2001 1:41:43 PM EDT
[#28]
A resonable principal might have used his authority better..not to mention the fact that two of the graduates from his high school wearing Marine Corps uniforms kinda spruced up the joint..two Marines would have made the principal look good..and the school look good..and a good word from the principal about being proud of them and having them in uniform ..he passed up a great opportunity to honor the young men and his high school...too bad because these are the kinds of examples the school and community need...
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Posted: 6/12/2001 1:43:37 PM EDT
[#29]
I think that this thread illustrates the garandman doesn't know when to let go. God knows I hope he never sits on the board of education of any school my children ever attend. Der children must ve taught to obey!
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Posted: 6/12/2001 1:45:09 PM EDT
[#30]
The first time I got to wear my dress blues was one of the most proudest times of my life.
These young adults who were denied wearing their dress blues at graduation were denied not because of some dress code, but it showed that they accomplished a difficult goal and made them more successful than the rest of the school. Anyone can get honor roll, but not everyone can become a Marine. The school board didn't want the rest of the students thinking about joining the Corps instead of attending college. [b]SEMPER FI[/b] |
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Posted: 6/12/2001 1:54:57 PM EDT
[#31]
Hoo boy!! What a hornet's nest. I cannot overstate my support and respect for our soldiers and sailors--my stepson enters the Marines on Aug. 7, 2001. BUT, I have to side with garandman. The acceptable dress was very specific to include a tie. I like his idea that they should have hashed this out ahead of time. They may not have had the chance due to logistics of Basic, but it would have been better. In today's screwed up society, if they had made an exception for these two stellar graduates some scumbag would have sued, with full ACLU backing, because he wasn't allowed to wear some freak costume. I really don't see this as an assault or otherwise disrespectful of the Marines--just strict enforcement of a signed contract, though a little pig-headed. I sure can see both sides--these young men were justifiably proud of their recent, more important graduation, and should have been allowed to wear their uniforms--if correct arrangements were made in advance. The gentleman who was referred to as "baby killer", my hat is off to you. Thank you for your service, and I hope you take comfort in the FACT that you are a better man than the limp dick, pus sack, putrid excuse for a man who demeaned you. With or without this aggravation both of these young men will probably be better men than 99% of the others in their graduating class. My thanks to all who serve/have served, you deserve better than is usually received from society. [:(]
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Posted: 6/12/2001 2:05:19 PM EDT
[#32]
OK, we have a question of a dress uniform having a tie? Yes they signed an agreement, but did notunderstand it. We are not talking jeans, we are talking dress blues. How petty on the part of the school official. These two young man are honorably serving their country. Are they proud? I am sure thre they are and rightly so. The teacher doesn't like it, move to China.
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Posted: 6/12/2001 2:09:59 PM EDT
[#33]
Or maybe it was those '16s they dropped off at the coat check room? Too bad they werent left alone, they were proud to be there as what they are. Maybe wanted to surprise or impress some sweetie? At one time in this country, a uniform would open doors, regardless of where. And its not like the phoney Marines running around years ago, looking for attention.
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Posted: 6/12/2001 2:12:08 PM EDT
[#34]
With all due respect to the young men in question and their chosen branch of service, they (unwisely) DID sign a poorly-written and badly thought out contract. They are honor-bound to live up to their word. I gotta take Garandman's side on this one. The root cause of this problem is the idiotic zero-tolerance mind-set that made the signing of such a contract a necessity for attending graduation.
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Posted: 6/13/2001 4:06:46 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: Der children must ve taught to obey! Oh, THAT'S rich. REALLY rich. Insinuating I'm some kind of Nazi. I make NUMEROUS substantive points you could debate, but NOOOOOO. You go right to the strength of your argument - playing the "nazi" card. Ironically, there is another thread going on here about Demo Underground.com - where the Leftists are ALSO calling people nazis - those people being gun owners. Remember the old saying - birds of a feather use the same tactics. Looking beyond the slanderous nature of your post, let's look at it substantively. Should children be taught to obey?? Most children don't think so when they are going thru it. But what is the alternative to teaching children to obey?? The alternative is 1. teaching them obedience is optional. The two Marines will HAVE TO obey someone FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES. For the next two to six years, it will be the chain of command. After that, it will be their boss, the traffic cop, the tax collector. The list goes on and on. They can learn it now, or they can suffer for not learning obedience for the REST OF THEIR LIVES. The second alternative is 2. Learning that your word is a tool to manipulate people the way you want, and something you can violate later when it suits your purposes. ALA Clinton. These alternatives seem to be okay with Mr. Boomer. But they are NOT okay by me. |
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Posted: 6/13/2001 4:19:35 AM EDT
[#36]
Some restaurants have a dress-codes, where diners must wear coat and tie.
Not unlike the dress-code that these young hard-chargers agreed to for their graduation. HOWEVER, if one were to show up dressed in USMC "Blues", they would still be honoring the code. Just because some ignorant civilian doesn't know the nature and stature of the uniform.... Garandman, you are right. If we deconstruct and parse the situation and their written agreement, we can successfully and logically make an argument that these Marines are liars. However, why would you want to do this? The spirit of the agreement was to ensure that the grads would be appropriately dressed. These Marines were not only dressed appropriately, they brought honor and pride to the proceedings. If you can't see that, you're an ass. |
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Posted: 6/13/2001 4:37:58 AM EDT
[#37]
Originally Posted By Major Murphy: Garandman, you are right. If we deconstruct and parse the situation and their written agreement, we can successfully and logically make an argument that these Marines are liars. However, why would you want to do this? The spirit of the agreement was to ensure that the grads would be appropriately dressed. These Marines were not only dressed appropriately, they brought honor and pride to the proceedings. If you can't see that, you're an ass. Well, I'm probably an ass. [}:D] In the interests of full disclosure, I have no military background, other than having an IMMENSE respect for the military, and a genuine sadness I did not serve in the military. And honestly, I hold the military to a higher standard than I do most of the general populace, becasue it has been my experience that military types are A BETTER BREED OF PEOPLE. I've even been caught on this board suggesting that ex-military should get MORE of a vote than civilians, as they have PAID MORE for freedom than I have. That said, a contract is a contract. Otherwise, the whole of society collapses. Were I the superintendant of this school, I would have been tempted to find some sort of loophole to get them AND their dress blues into the graduation. Have the students vote on it or something. Amend the contract. SOMETHING. I LOVE those uniforms. They cause ME to feel pride - I can only imagine the dignity and pride those marines felt. But the rules are the rules. The law is the law. This is bigger than two fine young Americans, and what they wear to graduation. That is a temporary situation that will be forgotten in a week. This is about a society that has lost its moral compass, where standards are fuzzy, if they exist at all. Where marriages break up over trivial things, and what is right is no longer absolute, but is a personal choice, creating 100 million versions of right and wrong. My hope would be that these to young Marines would once again carry the standard for our society - that of Duty, HONOR, and Country, [b]where your word is your bond,[/b] NO MATTER what the personal sacrifice. The way the Marines have done SO MANY times. |
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Posted: 6/13/2001 5:25:19 AM EDT
[#38]
garandman: I can't see the reason you're latching onto this notion as hard as you are, and flying in the face of all logic. True, the Marine Corps Dress Blue uniform does not include a tie. However, it is considered formal attire anywhere you go. These young gentlemen didn't dress like this to flout the rules. I'm sure they believed they were going further than the rules required by wearing the military equivalent of white-tie attire.
You never served in the military, as you said yourself, so you don't know the pride and happiness service members get when there is an opportunity to go out in public in the class A uniform of their service. To latch onto the letter of the policy like this is disrespect in its most petty and bureaucratic mask. I'm astounded that you support this. FMCDH Semper Fidelis Jarhead out. ----------------- "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." --George Orwell |
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Posted: 6/13/2001 5:42:44 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: I'm astounded that you support this. Jarhead - First, let me say I have GREAT respect for you, and your ability to communicate effectively the conservative voice, and your military service. When I see one of your posts / threads, I KNOW it'll be a good one. But I MUST correct you here. I am NOT supporting the school's decision. I think it was at the VERY least short sighted and rude, and at the worst "in your face" punishment of two young Americans whose accomplishments in their young lives are real, and significant. My "problem" is with the two young marines. THEY SIGNED AN AGREEMENT. THEY GAVE THEIR WORD - THEIR BOND. Do not the words "Duty, HONOR, Country" include "honoring" your word?" Yes, teh uniform is extremely formal, and appropriate EVERYWHERE. Everywhere EXCEPT where the said Marine has ALREADY de facto pledged NOT to wear it. Now, I don't look on these kids as "bad." Just kids. SHortsighted, a bit careless to so easily sign away the priviledge of wearing their uniforms. Those BEAUTIFUL uniforms, that as I said before, give ME immense pride in just seeing OTHERS wear them. This is a WONDERFUL life lesson for them. One they would NEVER learn in ANY school. I wish the school had let them wear their uniforms. I wish those Marines had had the foresight to disucss the matter with the school administration BEFORE HAND. But it is far and away more important that these two Marines, representing the future of America, learn to honor their word. Its what the Corps is all about. Its what America USED to be about, and we NEED the Corps to remind us of that. When the Corps, and its Marines, no longer honor their GIVEN word, I truly fear for America. Its an immense burden, I know. But I KNOW the Corps is equal to the task. Frankly, I'm a little surpised YOU aren't chastising these two young Marines for bringing a scandal to the uniform. |
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Posted: 6/13/2001 6:05:49 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: My "problem" is with the two young marines. THEY SIGNED AN AGREEMENT. THEY GAVE THEIR WORD - THEIR BOND. Do not the words "Duty, HONOR, Country" include "honoring" your word?" Yes, teh uniform is extremely formal, and appropriate EVERYWHERE. Everywhere EXCEPT where the said Marine has ALREADY de facto pledged NOT to wear it. You're splitting hairs here, and completely ignoring the body of my post. As I said, the Marine Corps Dress Blue Alpha uniform is accepted anywhere on the planet as formal attire. These young gentlemen did not show up for graduation in shorts and tank tops, they wore attire that stands out as above the norm at any wedding, formal ball or dinner party. Their pledge, I'm sure, was one of many [b]mandatory[/b] "contracts" kids are now required to sign in school which ensures zero-tolerance for anything the school administrators think is detrimental to turning out good consumers and regular prime-time TV viewers. Frankly, I'm a little surpised YOU aren't chastising these two young Marines for bringing a scandal to the uniform. They brought no scandal upon the uniform. They wore formal attire to their graduation, far better dressed than a teenager in a polo shirt and a ratty clip on tie who met the mean-spirited letter of this policy, and were humiliated by overzealous administrators for their pride in service. FMCDH Semper Fidelis Jarhead out. ------------------- "As to the abuses I meet with, I number them among my honors. One cannot behave so as to obtain the esteem of the wise and the good without drawing on oneself at the same time the envy and malice of the foolish and wicked, and the latter is testimony of the former. The best men have always had their share of this treatment, and the more of it in proportion to their different and greater degree of merit. A man, therefore, has some reason to be ashamed of himself when he meets with none of it." --Benjamin Franklin, 1767 |
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Posted: 6/13/2001 6:15:46 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: Folks, Every been invited to a formal Military Function ? At the bottom of the invetation it will specify the appropriate dress, ie; for military: Dress Blues, Dress Whites, Class A, etc. Civilian: Black Tie, buisness Suit, Casual. Military Dress Blues are the equivelent of Black Tie in the civilain world. These kids broke no contract nor went back on their word. They were overdressed. Had they worn tuxedos should they not have been allowed to participate because cumberbuns were not listed in the "contract". Just another example of the attitude of "Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and dogs KEEP OFF THE GRASS" Exactly what i was trying to say. Dress blues were appropriate for that event. |
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Posted: 6/13/2001 6:23:47 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: You're splitting hairs here, In my mind, this begs the question "At what point is violating a signed agreement NOT "splitting hairs?" Do we have to wait till its s home mortgage, but violating a contract on the purchase of an automobile is OKAY?? Where is the line of demarcation?? To me, if I PROMISE someone I'll eat pizza standing on one foot at noon today, and DON'T do it, I've broken my word, and dishonored myself. And was foolish enuf to make such a promise. Quoted: ...and completely ignoring the body of my post. As I said, the Marine Corps Dress Blue Alpha uniform is accepted anywhere on the planet as formal attire. Actually, i did address that. I said I agree - it is formal attire AND appropriate everywhere - EXCEPT where that Marine has de facto pledged NOT to wear it. Perhaps those young marines should do KP duty for signing that agreement. Quoted: Their pledge, I'm sure, was one of many [b]mandatory[/b] "contracts" kids are now required to sign in school which ensures zero-tolerance for anything the school administrators think is detrimental to turning out good consumers and regular prime-time TV viewers. The zero tolerance crap DOES bother me. But the time to address that issue was when the contract was presented to them - NOT at the graduation facility. ALLS I'm saying is this is a wonderful life lesson for these mini-jarheads. If they had been allowed into the facility in violation of their agreement, they would ONLY have learned contracts are bunk. And that kind of thinking will land them in some REAL hot water. Quoted: ...and were humiliated by overzealous administrators for their pride in service. I won't disagree with that. But these young Marines set themselves up for that. THEY SHOULD HAVE DEALT WITH THE DRESS CODE ****BEFORE**** THE GRADUATION. Ironically, this may teach those marines to plan ahead, and use wisdom and foresight in ALL they do. A lesson that one day may save their lives, considering that in battle, poor planning can be terminal. Beyond that, we may just have to agree to disagree. And either way, your STILL one of my favorite people on this site. |
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Posted: 6/13/2001 6:35:44 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted: In my mind, this begs the question "At what point is violating a signed agreement NOT "splitting hairs?" Do we have to wait till its s home mortgage, but violating a contract on the purchase of an automobile is OKAY?? Where is the line of demarcation?? To me, if I PROMISE someone I'll eat pizza standing on one foot at noon today, and DON'T do it, I've broken my word, and dishonored myself. And was foolish enuf to make such a promise. Comparing a mandatory, "you can't come to graduation unless you sign this" piece of paper to a mortgage contract or a purchase agreement of some sort is silly, and I think you know it. However, I will agree that they should have asked about the suitability of uniforms at the time they initially got handed the thing. Don't forget, these young gentlemen know all about the price for signing your name. They spent 15 weeks in a place very close to hell -Parris Island- because they signed their names in a recruiter's office. As you said, we are going to have to agree to disagree. FMCDH Semper Fidelis Jarhead out. ------------------- "Some people spend their whole lives wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem." --President Ronald Reagan |
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Posted: 6/13/2001 6:39:07 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: Comparing a mandatory, "you can't come to graduation unless you sign this" piece of paper to a mortgage contract or a purchase agreement of some sort is silly, and I think you know it. Last thought - ANY TIME I give my word on something, the consequences of violating my given word are equally damning to my reputation. And it DOES NOT matter WHAT I gave my word on, be it my attire, OR my home mortgage. Peace and prosperity, Jarhead. garandman out. |
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Posted: 6/13/2001 6:56:13 AM EDT
[#45]
good arguments on both sides.... i wondered what would have been said if the kid didnt have money to buy the attire such as a poor person. far fetched but it could happen.
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Posted: 6/13/2001 7:02:50 AM EDT
[#46]
Hey you guys--consider a point I made earlier. If an exception (though reasonable and right) is made for these two gentlemen you can rest assured some scumbag, hand in hand with the ACLU, will sue the school so that he can wear some freak outfit. School admins. these days live in fear of the "fatal lawsuit." This is just reality in our f'd up society. You can bet it figures into this. Years ago parents would demand their children dressed in an appropriate manner for such events--remember the mother's spit to keep the cowlick down? Now we have spoiled brat parents and their spoiled brat kids who wish to flout all convention and are willing to sue over it. Thus these policies are necessary to avoid the cost of litigation. Bottom line on this thread is we are ALL correct--this situation sucked, but it's not the fault of the young Marines or the school admins.--it is the fault of a society is terminal decline. [:(]
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Posted: 6/13/2001 7:27:40 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted: i wondered what would have been said if the kid didnt have money to buy the attire such as a poor person. far fetched but it could happen. Actually, NOT that far fetched. Heck, they've made exceptions for all kinds of perverseness - like a guy taking ANOTHER guy to the prom, etc etc. However, the fact that Liberals can so freely vioalte their own rules DOES NOT justify us braking those rules, or going back on our OWN word. Or we become JUST LIKE them. But you make a GOOD point. Beekeeper - ALSO a good point. Lawsuits aplenty if the school board applied common sense and let these two in their FORMAL dress blues attend. We make all kinds of exceptions for freaks. But solid citizens get NO breaks. |
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Posted: 6/13/2001 1:19:42 PM EDT
[#48]
I really don't care what they were compelled to sign by the state run school. Whoever slammed them did not do so because of the fact that they were "under dressed." It was a direct attack on excellence and achievement OUTSIDE the sanction of the state education establishment. Their successfully completeing Marine training was a slap in the face to everything that public education hopes to achieve.
Here is a quote form a parent aguing against them in a subsequent meeting. From the South Bend newspaper, link below: "The meeting was an emotional one for some. Memorial parent Jim Cummins cried as he finished his plea to stick with the current graduation dress code. He said it was intended to be a leveler so all students could graduate with equal dignity." If that is the case, why do they have a Valedictorian? Why do they have Cum Laude, Summa Cum Laude, Magna Cum Laude? Because you don't get those honors unless they are bestowed upon you by the liberal education establishment. So they are ok, and not a thret to "equal dignity." The reaction was directed at achievement and excellence accomplished OUTSIDE the educational establishment and in conflict with their liberal agenda. Like I said, I don't care what they signed. Just don't p*** on their backs and tell them it's raining! [url]http://www.southbendtribune.com/stories/2001/06/13/local.20010613-sbt-MARS-A2-Board_considers_atti.sto[/url] |
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Posted: 6/13/2001 2:02:16 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: Quoted: Those marines worked hard to earn that uniform, and it should be respected. The school should be proud to have these young men attend their graduation in uniform. They earned it. And a BIG part of respecting the uniform would include honoring your word. So if the decision was yours, you would not have let them participate in graduation either? Since they signed that contract and all. Personally I think it just shows how fast our country is going down the toilet. I can't imagine how I would have felt if my high school had not let me wear my dress blues to graduation. I too graduated early, went to boot camp and returned to participate in graduation ceremonies. Those of us who give so much to this country and get so little in return. I wonder why we bother sometimes. |
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Posted: 6/13/2001 2:18:00 PM EDT
[#50]
It's just plain, old ignorance.
The school would have been satisfied if the Marines had worn their Alphas (Green jacket and trou, khaki shirt and tie). And that's a step down from the Blues. Ignorance. |
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