Sig Sauer is kicking A** (Page 6 of 6)
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Originally Posted By AK-12: SIG hate is racist and antisemitic... Holy shit LMAO  Originally Posted By AK-12: Originally Posted By BuddyChryst: I have a number of SIGs and am generally a fan. The P385 looks like it might be a nice pistol, but I don’t really have interest. I pocket carry now. But I don’t get why people feel the need to bash a company that has led the way with innovation. I can understand if you choose not to buy, but I don’t understand the desire to bash. The firearm industry has a target on their back already, and we don’t need to give anti-2A folks any “ammo”. Don’t get me wrong, we need to call people out when they’re not right. There was a legitimate poor design with the first iteration of the P320. First, the design of the reset was poorly executed. The double click was a real issue that was completely overshadowed by the drop issue. But I’m convinced the recent “issues” are user induced. It’s been years and no one has been able to replicate them outside of fantastical theories relying on multiple one-time only failures all occurring at once and never being able to be replicated. The Ron Cohen complaint is just starting to seem antisemitic at this point. Everyone says he’s responsible for Kimber going to shit, but it’s been decades and Kimber isn’t great. Conversely, SIG was on the edge of failing and now they’re leading the way. Indian MIM also smacks of racism. To my knowledge, no one has demonstrated that there is any indication there’s a greater failure rate. Of all my SIGs, I’ve had exactly 1 part fail and that was the firing pin on a 1994 P229. Don’t think they were using MIM back then, and frankly at the time, it’s possible the small parts were German made. And I keep saying, if you refuse to buy a SIG because they have Indian MIM, you better stop flying, cuz the same company makes jet turbine fans that may well be pushing you through the air. Which brings us to the German made is the best. Yeah, at the time, German made SIGs were top notch firearms. But I argue that the milled slides are objectively better than stamped and welded slides with pinned blocks and internal extractors. Anyway, cool pistol, but I don’t have a purpose for it. SIG hate is racist and antisemitic... Holy shit LMAO Cool. Now explain why Cohen is bad. I’ve argued that he saved SIG and has led the company into being the innovation leader. I also recognized that the common argument against him is that he somehow ruined Kimber, which, if true, would mean Kimber would have done a 180 and become the best firearm manufacturer ever. What’s your rebuttal? Let me guess: diamond plate P938s and shiny blue P238s. Yeah, not my thing either, but they sold. I’ve also proposed that there is no evidence that parts from Indo-MIM are inferior. Perhaps you have solid evidence to the contrary? Every time I’ve asked these questions, no one has a logical response. They default to Cohen is cheap (Jewish stereotype) and Indians are incompetent and just go around doing nothing but shitting in the streets all day. While it may be true there folks in India shitting in the streets, it’s also true in California. What’s also in California? Other than a lot of bullshit, a lot of tech. A LOT of tech. So it doesn’t mean the people shitting in the streets are the ones making parts. But let’s hear your well reasoned arguments. |
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Originally Posted By BuddyChryst: Cool. Now explain why Cohen is bad. I’ve argued that he saved SIG and has led the company into being the innovation leader. I also recognized that the common argument against him is that he somehow ruined Kimber, which, if true, would mean Kimber would have done a 180 and become the best firearm manufacturer ever. What’s your rebuttal? Let me guess: diamond plate P938s and shiny blue P238s. Yeah, not my thing either, but they sold. I’ve also proposed that there is no evidence that parts from Indo-MIM are inferior. Perhaps you have solid evidence to the contrary? Every time I’ve asked these questions, no one has a logical response. They default to Cohen is cheap (Jewish stereotype) and Indians are incompetent and just go around doing nothing but shitting in the streets all day. While it may be true there folks in India shitting in the streets, it’s also true in California. What’s also in California? Other than a lot of bullshit, a lot of tech. A LOT of tech. So it doesn’t mean the people shitting in the streets are the ones making parts. But let’s hear your well reasoned arguments. Nobody who has ever seen anything you've posted in any Sig thread takes you seriously. |
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Originally Posted By BuddyChryst: Cool. Now explain why Cohen is bad. I’ve argued that he saved SIG and has led the company into being the innovation leader. I also recognized that the common argument against him is that he somehow ruined Kimber, which, if true, would mean Kimber would have done a 180 and become the best firearm manufacturer ever. What’s your rebuttal? Let me guess: diamond plate P938s and shiny blue P238s. Yeah, not my thing either, but they sold. I’ve also proposed that there is no evidence that parts from Indo-MIM are inferior. Perhaps you have solid evidence to the contrary? Every time I’ve asked these questions, no one has a logical response. They default to Cohen is cheap (Jewish stereotype) and Indians are incompetent and just go around doing nothing but shitting in the streets all day. While it may be true there folks in India shitting in the streets, it’s also true in California. What’s also in California? Other than a lot of bullshit, a lot of tech. A LOT of tech. So it doesn’t mean the people shitting in the streets are the ones making parts. But let’s hear your well reasoned arguments. Originally Posted By BuddyChryst: Originally Posted By AK-12: Originally Posted By BuddyChryst: I have a number of SIGs and am generally a fan. The P385 looks like it might be a nice pistol, but I don’t really have interest. I pocket carry now. But I don’t get why people feel the need to bash a company that has led the way with innovation. I can understand if you choose not to buy, but I don’t understand the desire to bash. The firearm industry has a target on their back already, and we don’t need to give anti-2A folks any “ammo”. Don’t get me wrong, we need to call people out when they’re not right. There was a legitimate poor design with the first iteration of the P320. First, the design of the reset was poorly executed. The double click was a real issue that was completely overshadowed by the drop issue. But I’m convinced the recent “issues” are user induced. It’s been years and no one has been able to replicate them outside of fantastical theories relying on multiple one-time only failures all occurring at once and never being able to be replicated. The Ron Cohen complaint is just starting to seem antisemitic at this point. Everyone says he’s responsible for Kimber going to shit, but it’s been decades and Kimber isn’t great. Conversely, SIG was on the edge of failing and now they’re leading the way. Indian MIM also smacks of racism. To my knowledge, no one has demonstrated that there is any indication there’s a greater failure rate. Of all my SIGs, I’ve had exactly 1 part fail and that was the firing pin on a 1994 P229. Don’t think they were using MIM back then, and frankly at the time, it’s possible the small parts were German made. And I keep saying, if you refuse to buy a SIG because they have Indian MIM, you better stop flying, cuz the same company makes jet turbine fans that may well be pushing you through the air. Which brings us to the German made is the best. Yeah, at the time, German made SIGs were top notch firearms. But I argue that the milled slides are objectively better than stamped and welded slides with pinned blocks and internal extractors. Anyway, cool pistol, but I don’t have a purpose for it. SIG hate is racist and antisemitic... Holy shit LMAO Cool. Now explain why Cohen is bad. I’ve argued that he saved SIG and has led the company into being the innovation leader. I also recognized that the common argument against him is that he somehow ruined Kimber, which, if true, would mean Kimber would have done a 180 and become the best firearm manufacturer ever. What’s your rebuttal? Let me guess: diamond plate P938s and shiny blue P238s. Yeah, not my thing either, but they sold. I’ve also proposed that there is no evidence that parts from Indo-MIM are inferior. Perhaps you have solid evidence to the contrary? Every time I’ve asked these questions, no one has a logical response. They default to Cohen is cheap (Jewish stereotype) and Indians are incompetent and just go around doing nothing but shitting in the streets all day. While it may be true there folks in India shitting in the streets, it’s also true in California. What’s also in California? Other than a lot of bullshit, a lot of tech. A LOT of tech. So it doesn’t mean the people shitting in the streets are the ones making parts. But let’s hear your well reasoned arguments. He absolutely ruined Kimbers reputation. Kimber is recovering with their revolvers and 2011. I dont understand how you can assert that just because Cohen isn't there then they would be the best. How do you make that leap? |
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Originally Posted By BuddyChryst: Cool. Now explain why Cohen is bad. I’ve argued that he saved SIG and has led the company into being the innovation leader. I also recognized that the common argument against him is that he somehow ruined Kimber, which, if true, would mean Kimber would have done a 180 and become the best firearm manufacturer ever. What’s your rebuttal? Let me guess: diamond plate P938s and shiny blue P238s. Yeah, not my thing either, but they sold. I’ve also proposed that there is no evidence that parts from Indo-MIM are inferior. Perhaps you have solid evidence to the contrary? Every time I’ve asked these questions, no one has a logical response. They default to Cohen is cheap (Jewish stereotype) and Indians are incompetent and just go around doing nothing but shitting in the streets all day. While it may be true there folks in India shitting in the streets, it’s also true in California. What’s also in California? Other than a lot of bullshit, a lot of tech. A LOT of tech. So it doesn’t mean the people shitting in the streets are the ones making parts. But let’s hear your well reasoned arguments. Cohen's leadership demonstrably corresponds with decreased customer value to prop up shareholder value. That's a common tactic amongst MBAs and venture capital firms, but it tends not to make the customers buying the products happy. If you want to relate it to Jewish stereotypes instead of modern business practices then that's on you dude. When you think of developed indistrial nations with a reputation for reliably producing quality goods do you think of Switzerland, Germany, and Japan; or do you think of India, China, and The Philippines? Attempting to equate California and India is unserious and I'm not going to bother entertaining it. |
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I’m happy with my P365, well I was but my wife stole it, still working great. I like my MCX Regulator a lot too. I would have bought a P365 x-macro earlier this year, but sig stopped making 15 round mags for it, can’t buy 17s here, so I went with a CSX instead. I’ve been impressed with some of Sigs optics, especially for the price. They have definitely taken a much larger share of the market than they had 15 years ago. |
Charlie Kirk lives on in all of us!
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Not going to lie I do like the looks of the P385 and want to get a feel for it to see how it fits my hands. I have smaller hands and hate the Glock grip. I also have a P220, P365, and SP2030. The one pistol that truly fit my hand was GD's next favorite to hate the Springfield XD. It's pretty bad when the XD45 fits my hand better than a Glock 19 just due to ergonomics. I remember when I first held an XD and was like holy crap it's perfect. Just looking at the P385 it looks like a gun that would be comfortable for me to shoot and shoot well. |
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Originally Posted By AK-12: Cohen's leadership demonstrably corresponds with decreased customer value to prop up shareholder value. That's a common tactic amongst MBAs and venture capital firms, but it tends not to make the customers buying the products happy. If you want to relate it to Jewish stereotypes instead of modern business practices then that's on you dude. When you think of developed indistrial nations with a reputation for reliably producing quality goods do you think of Switzerland, Germany, and Japan; or do you think of India, China, and The Philippines? Attempting to equate California and India is unserious and I'm not going to bother entertaining it. Originally Posted By AK-12: Originally Posted By BuddyChryst: Cool. Now explain why Cohen is bad. I’ve argued that he saved SIG and has led the company into being the innovation leader. I also recognized that the common argument against him is that he somehow ruined Kimber, which, if true, would mean Kimber would have done a 180 and become the best firearm manufacturer ever. What’s your rebuttal? Let me guess: diamond plate P938s and shiny blue P238s. Yeah, not my thing either, but they sold. I’ve also proposed that there is no evidence that parts from Indo-MIM are inferior. Perhaps you have solid evidence to the contrary? Every time I’ve asked these questions, no one has a logical response. They default to Cohen is cheap (Jewish stereotype) and Indians are incompetent and just go around doing nothing but shitting in the streets all day. While it may be true there folks in India shitting in the streets, it’s also true in California. What’s also in California? Other than a lot of bullshit, a lot of tech. A LOT of tech. So it doesn’t mean the people shitting in the streets are the ones making parts. But let’s hear your well reasoned arguments. Cohen's leadership demonstrably corresponds with decreased customer value to prop up shareholder value. That's a common tactic amongst MBAs and venture capital firms, but it tends not to make the customers buying the products happy. If you want to relate it to Jewish stereotypes instead of modern business practices then that's on you dude. When you think of developed indistrial nations with a reputation for reliably producing quality goods do you think of Switzerland, Germany, and Japan; or do you think of India, China, and The Philippines? Attempting to equate California and India is unserious and I'm not going to bother entertaining it. Yeah, clearly customers are so displeased with SIG that they went from maybe 150 employees around 2005 to 1000 in 2015ish and maybe 2500 today. And they’re probably second to Glock in current market share. Clear indicators that customers hate the product. So while SIG grew, Kimber kinda just stayed whatever. If Cohen was the problem, it stands to reason that SIG would’ve failed and collapsed and Kimber would’ve found someone to right the ship immediately. I just don’t see validity in the argument. As for Indian MIM, I still haven’t heard data on comparative failure rates of materials. Just “it’s from India, it must be bad”. Dunno what it looks like inside, but from the outside, it doesn’t look like guys are sitting in dirt, holding a crucible of molten material between their bare feet while making parts in an alley. Looks to me like any light manufacturing building supporting the big 3 around here. Attached File  |
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Originally Posted By BuddyChryst: Yeah, clearly customers are so displeased with SIG that they went from maybe 150 employees around 2005 to 1000 in 2015ish and maybe 2500 today. And they’re probably second to Glock in current market share. Clear indicators that customers hate the product. So while SIG grew, Kimber kinda just stayed whatever. If Cohen was the problem, it stands to reason that SIG would’ve failed and collapsed and Kimber would’ve found someone to right the ship immediately. I just don’t see validity in the argument. As for Indian MIM, I still haven’t heard data on comparative failure rates of materials. Just “it’s from India, it must be bad”. Dunno what it looks like inside, but from the outside, it doesn’t look like guys are sitting in dirt, holding a crucible of molten material between their bare feet while making parts in an alley. Looks to me like any light manufacturing building supporting the big 3 around here. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/240289/IMG_5508_jpeg-3832807.JPG https://i.postimg.cc/bJ8zgwkK/IMG-6505.png This entire post is so mendacious I'm not even going to respond dude. You aren't a serious person. |
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Originally Posted By scottzilla: correct me if i'm wrong but i'm pretty sure they have won every single lawsuit regarding the P320 to date A federal jury awarded Robert Lang $2.3 million after finding that the SIG Sauer P320 pistol had a design defect that caused it to discharge without pulling the trigger. A Philadelphia jury awarded $11 million on Wednesday to a man whose holstered Sig Sauer pistol went off while he was going down the stairs, causing a serious leg injury — the second major verdict this year against the embattled gun manufacturer over its P320 model. |
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I loved the original West German-made P220 in .45 ACP and P226 in 9mm, but I don't think they've made pistols as good since. Nothing compares to those original pistols. It was like glass-on-glass smoothness and effortless accuracy. I briefly had a Blackwater Tactical 9mm. The front sight flew off the first time out - dumped it shortly thereafter. |
To anger a conservative, tell him a lie; to anger a liberal, tell him the truth.
Women and Only Fans: When one door closes, their legs can open - SideCharger
DEI stands for “Discrimination, Exclusion, and Intolerance.” and "Didn't Earn It."
Women and Only Fans: When one door closes, their legs can open - SideCharger
DEI stands for “Discrimination, Exclusion, and Intolerance.” and "Didn't Earn It."
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Originally Posted By 03RN: The only emotional people in this thread are the sig fan boys who are really grasping at straws. So questioning an emotional stance that has not been able to be 100 percent proven much less repeatable/verified is grasping at straws and deserves a nonsensical label? To help simplify From a medical standpoint, people want the best 100 percent verified/repeatable diagnosis from a medical professional. Very specific details of the problem so it can be fixed. Not some gut feeling or intuition that cannot be 100 percent verified/repeatable. Especially if given years to do so…. Again, show the 100 percent verified/repeatable problem with the sig p320 that clearly shows the current unmolested stock p320 can fire without the trigger being pulled. I will happily stand behind you with that. I cannot stand behind a mystical diagnosis that cannot be verified/repeatable. Honestly the question is - Which one is truly emotionally based?? |
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Originally Posted By AK-12: This entire post is so mendacious I'm not even going to respond dude. You aren't a serious person. Originally Posted By AK-12: Originally Posted By BuddyChryst: Yeah, clearly customers are so displeased with SIG that they went from maybe 150 employees around 2005 to 1000 in 2015ish and maybe 2500 today. And they’re probably second to Glock in current market share. Clear indicators that customers hate the product. So while SIG grew, Kimber kinda just stayed whatever. If Cohen was the problem, it stands to reason that SIG would’ve failed and collapsed and Kimber would’ve found someone to right the ship immediately. I just don’t see validity in the argument. As for Indian MIM, I still haven’t heard data on comparative failure rates of materials. Just “it’s from India, it must be bad”. Dunno what it looks like inside, but from the outside, it doesn’t look like guys are sitting in dirt, holding a crucible of molten material between their bare feet while making parts in an alley. Looks to me like any light manufacturing building supporting the big 3 around here. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/240289/IMG_5508_jpeg-3832807.JPG https://i.postimg.cc/bJ8zgwkK/IMG-6505.png This entire post is so mendacious I'm not even going to respond dude. You aren't a serious person. I had to look up mendacious before I could figure out if I agreed or not. What is false about his post? I'm not a huge 320 fan but I do find it funny that people pretend they aren't tens of thousands of them out there many sold after the "problems" were known so the people pretending that nobody is willing to even try a new gun are delusional. It's also true that throughout the hate and problems Sig has continued to grow and expand. Most of the time it just comes across as irrational. It just gives me flashbacks to working in gun stores. |
BikerNut:
Normal people like motorcycles. Real people like motorcycles.
People who don't like motorcycles are just... weird.
Normal people like motorcycles. Real people like motorcycles.
People who don't like motorcycles are just... weird.
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Originally Posted By tgmr05: So questioning an emotional stance that has not been able to be 100 percent proven much less repeatable/verified is grasping at straws and deserves a nonsensical label? To help simplify From a medical standpoint, people want the best 100 percent verified/repeatable diagnosis from a medical professional. Very specific details of the problem so it can be fixed. Not some gut feeling or intuition that cannot be 100 percent verified/repeatable. Especially if given years to do so…. Again, show the 100 percent verified/repeatable problem with the sig p320 that clearly shows the current unmolested stock p320 can fire without the trigger being pulled. I will happily stand behind you with that. I cannot stand behind a mystical diagnosis that cannot be verified/repeatable. Honestly the question is - Which one is truly emotionally based?? Originally Posted By tgmr05: Originally Posted By 03RN: The only emotional people in this thread are the sig fan boys who are really grasping at straws. So questioning an emotional stance that has not been able to be 100 percent proven much less repeatable/verified is grasping at straws and deserves a nonsensical label? To help simplify From a medical standpoint, people want the best 100 percent verified/repeatable diagnosis from a medical professional. Very specific details of the problem so it can be fixed. Not some gut feeling or intuition that cannot be 100 percent verified/repeatable. Especially if given years to do so…. Again, show the 100 percent verified/repeatable problem with the sig p320 that clearly shows the current unmolested stock p320 can fire without the trigger being pulled. I will happily stand behind you with that. I cannot stand behind a mystical diagnosis that cannot be verified/repeatable. Honestly the question is - Which one is truly emotionally based?? There is plenty of anecdotal evidence of a significant flaw in the P320s design or manufacture, and given the prevalence of data, anecdotal or otherwise, your need for 100% verification is utterly meaningless. No one has to prove shit to you. Sig has to prove beyond doubt that the P320 design and construction are without flaw before the market would ever consider it a serious option again. They can’t do it, so instead they’re bringing a new gun to market that fills the same role. Guns are dangerous. One carrying a gun assumes a certain level of risk that’s mitigated through mindset, training and the use of proper equipment. Given all of the anecdotal evidence you insist doesn’t matter, why would an ordinary, otherwise intelligent gun owner insert additional risk into his routine by choosing to carry or employ a gun that may or may not render his mindset, training and equipment selection moot through a defect in manufacture or design? That’s what you’re arguing against, that’s why your “boy cried wolf” fable reference and whatever the hell youre trying to pull with a medical diagnosis non sequitur are totally retarded in this context, and that’s why the P320 is trash. |
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Originally Posted By Spiffums: I wouldn't buy pussy from SIG. Originally Posted By Spiffums: Originally Posted By metalsaber: How many people are willing to beta test a new sig after the 320? If sig was pussy it would gave you the clap, then your pecker would fall off. |
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Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: I had to look up mendacious before I could figure out if I agreed or not. What is false about his post? I'm not a huge 320 fan but I do find it funny that people pretend they aren't tens of thousands of them out there many sold after the "problems" were known so the people pretending that nobody is willing to even try a new gun are delusional. It's also true that throughout the hate and problems Sig has continued to grow and expand. Most of the time it just comes across as irrational. It just gives me flashbacks to working in gun stores. SIG has done a great job of getting lucrative organizational sales, which is why the company has grown. Those sales were largely due to their pistols embodying the LPTA requirements, and while they may have been found technically acceptable, it shouldn't really be a susprise that commercial buyers have gripes with the build quality that got it to the lowest price point. It's the same thing you see in many industries. Growth at the expense of product quality, and shareholder value increased at the expense of customer value. It took Kimber's reputation down from a reputable company that offered features primarily found in expensive custom guns to that of a company that makes flashy but unreliable shitboxes. |
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Originally Posted By AK-12: SIG has done a great job of getting lucrative organizational sales, which is why the company has grown. Those sales were largely due to their pistols embodying the LPTA requirements, and while they may have been found technically acceptable, it shouldn't really be a susprise that commercial buyers have gripes with the build quality that got it to the lowest price point. It's the same thing you see in many industries. Growth at the expense of product quality, and shareholder value increased at the expense of customer value. It took Kimber's reputation down from a reputable company that offered features primarily found in expensive custom guns to that of a company that makes flashy but unreliable shitboxes. Originally Posted By AK-12: Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: I had to look up mendacious before I could figure out if I agreed or not. What is false about his post? I'm not a huge 320 fan but I do find it funny that people pretend they aren't tens of thousands of them out there many sold after the "problems" were known so the people pretending that nobody is willing to even try a new gun are delusional. It's also true that throughout the hate and problems Sig has continued to grow and expand. Most of the time it just comes across as irrational. It just gives me flashbacks to working in gun stores. SIG has done a great job of getting lucrative organizational sales, which is why the company has grown. Those sales were largely due to their pistols embodying the LPTA requirements, and while they may have been found technically acceptable, it shouldn't really be a susprise that commercial buyers have gripes with the build quality that got it to the lowest price point. It's the same thing you see in many industries. Growth at the expense of product quality, and shareholder value increased at the expense of customer value. It took Kimber's reputation down from a reputable company that offered features primarily found in expensive custom guns to that of a company that makes flashy but unreliable shitboxes. Again it's a common sentiment that pops up that Sigs are mostly bad. Lots of people make it sound like they are shit all the while there are tens of thousands of happy customers that are still buying Sigs and will continue to do so. I absolutely agree that the way big business is run can be horrible for a lot of things but the truth is that most of that is driven by customers. A lot of us forget how big the gun industry is and there is more than enough room for everyone from Hi Point to Atlas and everything in between. |
BikerNut:
Normal people like motorcycles. Real people like motorcycles.
People who don't like motorcycles are just... weird.
Normal people like motorcycles. Real people like motorcycles.
People who don't like motorcycles are just... weird.
|
Originally Posted By thirsty: There is plenty of anecdotal evidence of a significant flaw in the P320s design or manufacture, and given the prevalence of data, anecdotal or otherwise, your need for 100% verification is utterly meaningless. Guns are dangerous. One carrying a gun assumes a certain level of risk that’s mitigated through mindset, training and the use of proper equipment. Given all of the anecdotal evidence you insist doesn’t matter, why would an ordinary, otherwise intelligent gun owner insert additional risk into his routine by choosing to carry or employ a gun that may or may not render his mindset, training and equipment selection moot through a defect in manufacture or design? That’s what you’re arguing against, that’s why your “boy cried wolf” fable reference and whatever the hell youre trying to pull with a medical diagnosis non sequitur are totally retarded in this context, and that’s why the P320 is trash. Another perfect example of an emotionally based response/stance. Rational people want to have the best, most accurate information to make an informed decision. Not anecdotal, but true solid 100 percent verifiable/repeatable information. If you can provide the 100 percent verifiable/repeatable specific problem showing a current unmolested p320 can fire without a trigger pull - I will support you and help spread the word. Otherwise, well, you know… |
Sig Sauer is kicking A** (Page 6 of 6)
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