It's a choice, even if it's just a subconscious one.  

Every gay person I have ever met and talked with has been molested as a child.  I am sure not every gay person has been molested but it seems pretty weird to me.  I know of two gay women right off hand that where molested by their fathers when they where 10/12.  I think it gets them hating the opposite sex so much that they somehow trip a gayness switch in the brain or something.

And furthermore I don't need one of you jackasses telling me I don't know what I am talking about.  You have no fucking idea what I know.

I have also met a ex-gay man who is married and has a kids.  

No, but everyone is born with a nature to sin. Acting on it is a choice.

Who the hell cares.  I like gay men...it means more women for me

no

Quoted: No. They choose to be gay.

What total crap. Who the hell would CHOOSE to be gay? What purpose would that serve? Do you CHOOSE who you're naturally attracted to, or are you just attracted by those features that appeal to you?

No question....they are born gay.

I certainly hope so. That way we can legally abort them before they are born.



Just being facetious to make a point. I do like the irony of playing two liberal issues against each other.
It is truly a fact that if ever a test is developed, it WILL BE USED in that manner. That is the secret motivation to the gay community NOT wanting to find a "gay gene."

No such gene has ever been found, and never will. (IMHO)

-LS

yea I think they are born that way for 2 reasons.first I cant think of any way I would be attracted to a man.I had a conversation with a gay friend of mine"dude,say you are at the beach and a hot chick walked by you in no way would want to hit it,but some hairy ass guy comes by and you would be all over that?"he said yes so I was convincedsecond I have a cousin who was born with both sets of organs,and when she was a baby her parents had the male equipment chopped off.I didnt believe she was a girl untill I was 12.short hair,flannel shirts,chewed skoal,wore work boots.Lets just say it wasnt a shock when she came out of the closet after highschool.

Yes.

Do some reading, it might help ya out:

BBC (April 23, 1999). Doubt cast on 'gay gene' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_325000/325979.stm). BBC News. William Byne (May 1994). The Biological Evidence Challenged (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/genetics/biochallenge.html). Scientific American, vol. 270, pp. 50-55. William Byne et al. (2001). The Interstitial Nuclei of the Human Anterior Hypothalamus: An Investigation of Variation with Sex, Sexual Orientation, and HIV Status (http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/students/SHUMAKE/psy308/Byne.pdf). Hormones and Behavior, vol. 40, pp. 86-92. Simon LeVay (1991). A Difference in Hypothalmic Structure Between Heterosexual and Homosexual Men (http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/scotts/bulgarians/nature-nurture/levay.html). Science, vol. 253, pp. 1034-1037. Simon LeVay & Dean H. Hamer (May 1994). Evidence for a Biological Influence in Male Homosexuality (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/genetics/evidence.html). Scientific American, vol. 270, pp. 44-49. Trisha Macnair (undated). Genetics and human behaviour (http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/features/genes_behaviour.shtml). BBC Health. Timothy F. Murphy (Fall 2000). Now What? The Latest Theory of Homosexuality (http://www.apa.udel.edu/apa/publications/newsletters/v00n1/lgbt/04.asp). APA Newsletter on Philosophy and Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Issues. Nuffield Council on Bioethics (2002). Genetics and human behaviour (http://www.nuffieldbioethics.org/publications/geneticsandhb/rep0000001098.asp). London: Author. Chapter 10 (http://www.nuffieldbioethics.org/publications/geneticsandhb/rep0000001031.asp) discusses sexual orientation. T. J. Taylor (1992). Twin Studies of Homosexuality (http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/timt/papers/twin_studies/index.html). Part II Experimental Psychology Dissertation (unpublished), University of Cambridge, UK. Rosemary C. Veniegas & Terri D. Conley (2000). Biological Research on Women's Sexual Orientations: Evaluating the Scientific Evidence (http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m0341/2_56/66419866/print.jhtml). Journal of Social Issues, vol. 56, pp. 267-282. Neil Whitehead & Briar Whitehead (updated March 6, 2002). Twin Studies (http://www.mygenes.co.nz/twin.html). Online at http://www.mygenes.co.nz/twin.html.

And another website with a pretty balanced discussion of the issue:

www.religioustolerance.org/hom_caus4.htm

Subjectively, I've known many people who declare themselves as homosexual.  I consider them friends and if either of us calls the other on the telephone, we know each other's voice and we don't have to say who is calling (yes...even with caller ID off ..hehe).

Objectively, the studies I've read from both sides have not convinced me that this is something with which people are born.  With everything I've seen or experienced, I say it's a lifestyle choice.  True, it may not always be a conscious choice and with today's society validating such a choice, it may be an easier choice to make than it was a few decades ago.

Also, there was a remark that a certain percentage of pedophiles were homosexual.  Question: Are adult males who molest boys considered homosexual?  And if not...why not?

Last...I'm still trying to find the Must-Have-Full-Auto-Gene..that way I can sue the government and they can supply me with full-auto and have it covered on my medical insurance.  Of course I'll pay that $10 copay for  a generic M16...but probably $20 for the name-brand Colt.

Quoted: And furthermore I don't need one of you jackasses telling me I don't know what I am talking about.  You have no fucking idea what I know.

That's funny I was thinking that very same thing

Quoted: Quoted: No. They choose to be gay. What total crap. Who the hell would CHOOSE to be gay? What purpose would that serve? Do you CHOOSE who you're naturally attracted to, or are you just attracted by those features that appeal to you? No question....they are born gay.

Then child molesters "can't help" it either.

Be sure you understand what you are doing when you open that door. If people cannot control their sexual attractions and behaviors, then all sorts of evil is unleashed on society.

My question. Are there any poor "Gay" people?

They, as a whole, appear to be very well off. Like you can afford to be gay.

Ask a gay person: If there were pills that you could take that would garantee "straightness," would you take it?  Also, if a pill could be given to a pregnant woman that would garantee the child would be straight, would you support a parent,s "right" to take the pill?  

Quoted: Ask a gay person: If there were pills that you could take that would garantee "straightness," would you take it?

Nope

Also, if a pill could be given to a pregnant woman that would garantee the child would be straight, would you support a parent,s "right" to take the pill?

Yep

Quoted: Quoted: Ask a gay person: If there were pills that you could take that would garantee "straightness," would you take it? Nope Also, if a pill could be given to a pregnant woman that would garantee the child would be straight, would you support a parent,s "right" to take the pill?   Yep

Thanks for the response.

Would you support legislation to make taking the pill mandatory?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Ask a gay person: If there were pills that you could take that would garantee "straightness," would you take it? Nope Also, if a pill could be given to a pregnant woman that would garantee the child would be straight, would you support a parent,s "right" to take the pill?   Yep Thanks for the response. Would you support legislation to make taking the pill mandatory?

Nope....sorry better answers to come after I have coffee

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: No. They choose to be gay. What total crap. Who the hell would CHOOSE to be gay? What purpose would that serve? Do you CHOOSE who you're naturally attracted to, or are you just attracted by those features that appeal to you? No question....they are born gay. Then child molesters "can't help" it either. Be sure you understand what you are doing when you open that door. If people cannot control their sexual attractions and behaviors, then all sorts of evil is unleashed on society.

its not even remotely similar.

Children below the age of consent are illegal for anyone (bi/straight/gay) to have sex with.  Rape is illegal whatever your orientation.  

Try Leviticus 18:22

Romans 1: 26-27

Genesis chapters 18 & 19

1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10

That settles the question once and for all

who cares.
nothing like having people interject themselve into anothers life. we all know how most in here just love to have that happen to them, don't we?

A huge case of mind your own business is in order.

but of course, with the religious right, they refuse to do that.
pushing their " religious BS" on those who don't follow the flock.



Chris

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: No. They choose to be gay. What total crap. Who the hell would CHOOSE to be gay? What purpose would that serve? Do you CHOOSE who you're naturally attracted to, or are you just attracted by those features that appeal to you? No question....they are born gay. Then child molesters "can't help" it either. Be sure you understand what you are doing when you open that door. If people cannot control their sexual attractions and behaviors, then all sorts of evil is unleashed on society. its not even remotely similar. Children below the age of consent are illegal for anyone (bi/straight/gay) to have sex with.  Rape is illegal whatever your orientation.

If they can't help it, they can't help it. We can't say people aren't accountable and ARE accountable at the same time.

Are people born homo?

Its more like...some people are born with a mental defect. It then manifests itself in different ways. Some become homos...some become child molesters...some become serial killers...and some become democrats...or combinations of the above. Either way...they're fucked up in the head.

Quoted: who cares. nothing like having people interject themselve into anothers life. we all know how most in here just love to have that happen to them, don't we? A huge case of mind your own business is in order. but of course, with the religious right, they refuse to do that. pushing their " religious BS" on those who don't follow the flock. Chris

Toke out and relax man. Let the herb make all the demonic voices of those fundamentalist nuts fade to nothing.

No need to listen. No need to change. No need to re-evaluate. Just mellow out and ride the tide.

you got the good shit JW?

share already man.



Chris

Quoted: Quoted: who cares. nothing like having people interject themselve into anothers life. we all know how most in here just love to have that happen to them, don't we? A huge case of mind your own business is in order. but of course, with the religious right, they refuse to do that. pushing their " religious BS" on those who don't follow the flock. Chris Toke out and relax man. Let the herb make all the demonic voices of those fundamentalist nuts fade to nothing. No need to listen. No need to change. No need to re-evaluate. Just mellow out and ride the tide.

No, people are born either male or female. Sexuality and sexual preferences develop throughout the growth process.

Quoted: who cares. nothing like having people interject themselve into anothers life. we all know how most in here just love to have that happen to them, don't we? A huge case of mind your own business is in order. but of course, with the religious right, they refuse to do that. pushing their " religious BS" on those who don't follow the flock. Chris

Every knee shall bow to God, my friend ... every knee.

only the knees of the flock, I've been dead. and it wasn't anything but black.

Have your "faith"  don't shove it on those who don't need it as a crutch.


Chris

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: No. They choose to be gay. What total crap. Who the hell would CHOOSE to be gay? What purpose would that serve? Do you CHOOSE who you're naturally attracted to, or are you just attracted by those features that appeal to you? No question....they are born gay. Then child molesters "can't help" it either. Be sure you understand what you are doing when you open that door. If people cannot control their sexual attractions and behaviors, then all sorts of evil is unleashed on society. its not even remotely similar. Children below the age of consent are illegal for anyone (bi/straight/gay) to have sex with.  Rape is illegal whatever your orientation.   If they can't help it, they can't help it. We can't say people aren't accountable and ARE accountable at the same time.

that is an idiotic statement

Rape and sexual relations with minors are crimes.   They have nothing to do with homosexuality or sexual orientation.    They are crimes committed by people of all orientations.

Quoted: only the knees of the flock, I've been dead. and it wasn't anything but black. Have your "faith"  don't shove it on those who don't need it as a crutch. Chris

Well Chris ... it's your word against His.

Guess who's going to win?

funny, I hear my words. where's his?

listning intently.  Nothing.......

Chris

Quoted: Quoted: only the knees of the flock, I've been dead. and it wasn't anything but black. Have your "faith"  don't shove it on those who don't need it as a crutch. Chris Well Chris ... it's your word against His. Guess who's going to win?

Quoted: Your first sexual experience can imprint your preference even if it was a molestation. Another reason they (homosexuals) want to lower the age sexuality is presented. Homosexuals commit 20% of the pedophilia but only make up 1-2% of the population. Scary if you think about it. Planerench out. edit to ditto the mental disorder. Homosexualtiy was an accepted mental disorder until late into the 20th century when PC force a change. Still explains the argument that no one would choose to be queer. Planerench out.

No, the DX was "changed" because it was incorrect... kinda like "bleeding" people to "cure" them   went out, because it had no merit.

And we are AT LEAST 5% of the overall population, possibly closer to 7% (I've seen 10%... but even _I_ don't think that's really the case.) But 1-2% is far too low, only the Jezus Phreaks think that's a realistic #.

I knew I wanted a wife by age 3, and I DO think that a molestation can factor in to the choice of sexuality, but I'm certain that this was NOT the case w/me as I show NO "symptoms" of being molested, and frankly, I can't even conceive of ONE person who would have had access that might have done so. Thing is sexuality is multi-faceted, and there may well in one case be 2-3 "causes" and in another none of those factors apply, but another does.

I know women who SHOULD be "straight" but they suffered abuse from men (raped, beaten) and they see women as their only alternative.... while I sympathise, and am "friendly" with them, I won't date them, because, IMO that is the WRONG "reason" to date other woman. It's one I UNDERSTAND, just not, IMO, the choice I'd make in THEIR "shoes" (I would hope anyway).

Quoted: I think it's a chemical thing they are born with or changes with age.

I believe that's one likely "cause"... though, IMO there MAY be 100 queers, and maybe 50% of them have some "chemical" thing going on, the other 50 have other factors. JMO.

Quoted: one of my friend's sister is a lesbian, as his father's sister. i know that isnt enough evidence to prove it is genetic, but im just saying.

Yeah, I'd say genetics could certainly play a role (in some cases, anyway ;)

Quoted: It's a behavior choice.   If a behavior is freakish and a small group wanted to force acceptance on the masses, the only way to do it is to deny responsibility, hence: "I cant help I'm a freak, I was BORN that way.  Now accept me or I'll scream victim! OR I'll harass, disrupt, intimidate, legeslate, and threaten you." That can only be gotten away with in these times.

In SOME cases, I'd say you are likely correct, but in others, you are not. Multifactoral.

IOW, I can CHOOSE to never have a close relationship, OR I can CHOOSE to love my woman and run the risk of ignorant homophobes attacking me.... but then I DO have a 9mm.... ;) OR (the one _I_ really like [yes, being VERY sarcastic]) I can find a nice guy, deceive him into thinking I "love" him, marry him (while never loving him) resent him, have that flow over into the lives of those close to us, become bitter, cause HIM to become bitter, have him call me "frigid" (because w/a guy I WOULD be) we could argue a LOT.... maybe that would eventually turn him into an alcoholic and we could "spread our misery" far and wide. Yep... I suppose I COULD "choose" that option....

Quoted: NO, but they are born stupid.

MY I.Q. is 142... what's yours?

Quoted: Absolutely not.  How can you be born gay when you were conceived by heterosexuals?  Again, the answer is no. Thus endeth the sermon. [

That's too phoquing stoopid [sic] to comment on.

Quoted: Of course you guys are right. I'm sure one day, each gay consciously decided to become somebody who would be harrassed, insulted, and outcast. I mean, who wouldn't want to have such a horrible life for a bit of sex? MeagerMouse, I have met stupid gays. I have met smart gays. I have also met gays with a knee-jerk and insulting reaction to something they don't like. Don't worry, you're not alone.

+1!

Quoted: Ive talked to a straight man who was once gay. He is certain people are not born gay and that its a choice which is affected by worldly situations.

He is "certain" because HE wasn't....  and even though from the bit you've said, he's an idiot, I'm glad he found his "true" identity and hope he's a happy idiot. Of course he COULD be bi and just "in denial" because he couldn't cope w/the pressure. <shrug> Hard to say.

Quoted: It's the age old nature vs. nurture question.  In nature animals will naturally go for the opposite sex for reasons of procreation.  Human beings are also born with such instincts.  But humans are the only species that have been able to relegate the idea of procreation to a secondary purpose of sex.  For the most part we do it for fun.  It's a leisure activity.  And each person's idea of fun is different.  As is each person's idea of what is attractive.  One guy may like blondes.  One may like redheads.  One may like other guys.  In all of these choices it is something in that person's development that has made them attracted to that.  No guy is born with a preference for blondes.  And no guy is born with an attraction to other guys (this is contrary to nature).  For some reason or another this person has developed this preference.  I don't want to go as far as to say molestation.  But something in their development has caused this.

Hmm....

Well, then perhaphs you can explain:

"The Gay Side of Nature"
Even as moralists and activists continue to debate homosexuality, many species casually practice it.
By Jeffrey Kluger.
Giraffes do it, goats do it, birds and bonobos and dolphins do it. Humans beings - a lot of them anyways - like to do it too, but of all the planet's species, they're the only ones who are oppressed when they try.
What humans share with so many other animals, it now appears, is freewheeling homosexuality. For centuries opponents of gay rights have seen same-gender sex as a uniquely human phenomenon, one of the many ways our famously corruptible species flouts the laws of nature. But nature's morality, it seems, may be remarkably flexible, at least if the new book Biological Exuberance (St. Martin's Press), by linguist and cognitive scientist Bruce Bagemihl, is to be believed. According to Bagemihl, the animal kingdom is a more sexually complex place than most people know - one where couplings routinely take place not just between male-female pairs but also between male-male and female-female ones. What's more, same-sex partners don't meet merely for brief encounters, but many form long-term bonds, sometimes mating for years or even for life.
Bagemihl's ideas have caused a stir in the higher, human community, especially among scientists who find it simplistic to equate any animal behavior with human behavior. But Bagemihl stands behind the findings, arguing that if homosexuality comes naturally to other creature, perhaps it's time to quit getting into such a lather over the fact that it comes naturally to humans too. "Animal sexuality is more complex than we imagined," says Bagemihl. "That diversity is part of human heritage."
For a love that long dared not speak its name, animal homosexuality is astonishingly common. Scouring zoological journals and conducting extensive interviews with scientists, Bagemihl found same-sex pairings documented in more than 450 different species. In a world teeming with more than 1 million species, that may not seem like much. Animals, however, can be surprisingly prim about when and under whose prying eye they engage in sexual activity; as few as 2,000 species have thus been observed closely enough to reveal their full range of coupling behavior. Within such a small sampling, 450 represents more than 20%.
That 20% may spend its time lustily or quite tenderly. Among bonobos, a chimp-like ape, homosexual pairings account for as much as 50% of all sexual activity. Females especially engage in repeated acts of same-sex sex, spending far more than the 12 or so seconds the whole transaction can take when a randy male is involved. Male giraffes practice necking - literally - in a very big way, entwining their long bodies until both partners become sexually aroused. Heterosexual and homosexual dolphin pairs engage in face-to-face sexual encounters that look altogether human. Animals as diverse as elephants and rodents practice same-sex mounting, and macaques raise that affection ante further, often kissing while assuming a coital position. Same-gender sexual activity, says Bagemihl, "encompasses a wide range of forms."
What struck Bagemihl most is those forms that go beyond mere sexual gratification. Humboldt penguins may have homosexual unions that last six years; male greylag geese may stay paired for 15 years - a lifetime commitment when you've got the life-span of a goose. Bears and some other mammals may bring their young into homosexual unions, raising them with their same-sex partner just as they would with a member of the opposite sex.
But witnessing same-sex activity and understanding it are two different things, and some experts believe observers like Bagemihl are misreading the evidence. In species that lack sophisticated language - which is to say all species but ours - same sex serves many non-sexual purposes, including establishing alliances and appeasing enemies, all things animals must do with members of both sexes. "Sexuality helps animals maneuver around each other before making real contact," says Martin Daly, an evolutionary psychologist at McMaster University in Ontario. "Putting all that into a homosexual category seems simplistic."
Even if some animals do engage in homosexual activity purely for pleasure, their behaviour still serves as an incomplete model - and an incomplete explanation - for human behaviour. "In our society homosexuality means a principal or exclusive orientation," says psychology professor Frans de Waal of the Yerkes Primate Center in Atlanta. "Among animals it's just nonreproductive sexual behavior."
Whether any of this turns out to be good for the gay and lesbian community is unclear. While the new findings seem to support the idea that homosexuality is merely a natural form of sexual expression, Bagemihl believes such political questions may be beside the point. "We shouldn't have to look to the animal world to see what's normal or ethical," he says. Indeed, when it comes to answering those questions, Mother Nature seems to be keeping an open mind.
From Time maganize, April 26, 1999. Vol. 153, No. 16, pg. 70.

Quoted: I agree with Troy.

Again, +1!

Quoted: yes. Some people are born gay.  I think others make the choice for various reasons,  abuse probably being most prevalent.   But some people are definately born gay. I don't think it's a mental disease but a physiological one. can you imagine trying to switch from wanting to hit girls to hitting boys?  I couldn't do it,  no matter what.

Exactly! I cannot imagine "switching" from wanting to hit women to wanting to hit guys. I couldn't do it, OMMV ;) [Other's mileage may vary].

Quoted: To me it's an illness like any other, except that the behavior CAN be controlled by choice. It's not a matter of rights. If someone had a disorder that prevented them from holding their bowels, you wouldn't see them holding parades about how proud they are that they shit themselves. You wanna be a pole-smoker or carpet -muncher? Go ahead, but please don't foist your disfunction on the rest of us when it is so easy to avoid doing so. Thanks.

Hey, as soon as you (straight) guys stop foisting YOURS on ME (BOTD threads just being the most obvious) I'll be MORE than happy to STFU... but I'm polite, after you.

Quoted: I read an interesting paper on the causes of homosexuality about ten years ago that made about as much sense as any other I've heard. The writer was a Brit psychologist who'd been studying homosexual behavior in boys schools in England and some predominately Muslim countries (Where the sexes are seperated in many cases during their early education years) and what he proposed seemed to make sense (At least to me).   <snip>

Again, yes, I'd say that likely has merit in SOME cases, certainly, but it doesn't explain ME (for instance) because I knew WAY before "puberty" and I also tended to play w/the boys (monkey bars and/or ball, mostly) starting as early as I can recall having ANY "playmates" (3-4 years old).

Quoted: I don't mind gay people.  They're complete freaks of nature but otherwise harmless leftist wimpies with no significant affect on anything but viruses and a respectable Will&Grace fan base.  It's not like they can breed so let em run around in dresses playing grabass all they want. I think the whole mess boils down to family values, or the lack there of.

Sorry, Hokie. I must disagree. Why? Because I KNOW of no one w/stronger "family values" than the majority of my closer GLBT friends - Stoner and his S.O. among them. Myself DEFINITELY included in there - you sell us short because you do not know us. PERIOD. And YES, I'm a Leftist (in MOST areas) but if you met me, I SERIOUSLY doubt you'd say I was a "wimp". I also do not like Will & Grace, I think I've MAYBE watched a total of 3-4 episodes. Ask GI Brat if he'd use the term "Wimp" to describe me, or TheBeeKeeper... for that matter ask `em of their opinion of Stoner after having met him.

Oh! Or CampyBob. (Though admittedly we didn't have much of a chance to chat).

Quoted: I certainly hope so. That way we can legally abort them before they are born. Just being facetious to make a point. I do like the irony of playing two liberal issues against each other. It is truly a fact that if ever a test is developed, it WILL BE USED in that manner. That is the secret motivation to the gay community NOT wanting to find a "gay gene." No such gene has ever been found, and never will. (IMHO) -LS

I'd agree, IMO it's more likely the hormonal secretions by the mother at certain times of development. "Wires" get crossed and voila gay kid. I don't think there's a "gay gene" so much as as a "maternal predisposition" to have gay kids. Since the mother seems "normal" in every way (het, etc...) and since she has at least SOME "normal" kids (usually) the scientists are too thick to see that any time soon.

Quoted: Ask a gay person: If there were pills that you could take that would garantee "straightness," would you take it?

Nope.

If a pill could be given to a pregnant woman that would garantee the child would be straight, would you support a parent,s "right" to take the pill?

IF she wanted to do so, yes. If she was being pressured by others.... I'd hope she were strong enough to resist.

Would you support legislation to make taking the pill mandatory?

Hell NO! Would YOU? (Look who I'm asking, you're probably one of those "anti-choice" types).

Quoted: who cares. nothing like having people interject themselve into anothers life. we all know how most in here just love to have that happen to them, don't we? A huge case of mind your own business is in order. but of course, with the religious right, they refuse to do that. pushing their " religious BS" on those who don't follow the flock.

Amen brother!  ;)

(Edited `cause I double posted - "cut and paste" never was my forte' ;)

Icantdance,

There are hundreds of holy books written that claim to be the word of god.  So far none of them have been proven to be so.

Besides, the tribulation will give all of us sinners a chance to accept Jesus and be saved just like you fundies, so don't worry about us.

kthxbye

Quoted:
funny, I hear my words. where's his?

listning intently.  Nothing.......

Chris


Show Him your honesty, seek Him, He will answer if you're sincere.

seek him??you know , most people who "find "god , do so in JAIL don't you?

if god's there, he'll find me or I'll be correct when I die again.....blackness.

Chris

Quoted: Quoted: funny, I hear my words. where's his? listning intently.  Nothing....... Chris Show Him your honesty, seek Him, He will answer if you're sincere.

Quoted: Icantdance, There are hundreds of holy books written that claim to be the word of god.  So far none of them have been proven to be so. Besides, the tribulation will give all of us sinners a chance to accept Jesus and be saved just like you fundies, so don't worry about us. kthxbye

There are 66 books in the Bible ... Genesis to Revelation.

You say none of them have been proven to be so.

Consider that "if" the Bible was written just by man alone, there would be fallicies, there are none.

"If" the Bible was written by just man, and man is a sinful creature, as we all know (me included) ... then why would man write 66 books spanning 3000 years condeming man himself?

Funny you remark of the tribulation ... so you have some thoughts about God ... yet, you say "you'll be givin a chance at that time!

Foolish one! God will not be mocked!

Repent now, and don't mock God!

Do not look at His sacrifice as cheap merchandise!

Quoted: [that is an idiotic statement Rape and sexual relations with minors are crimes.   They have nothing to do with homosexuality or sexual orientation.    They are crimes committed by people of all orientations.

If sexual preference is something we are BORN with, then the arguement is that people CAN'T HELP what they are ATTRACTED to.

Which is utter nonsense.

That is my point.

Even if you are born gay (I dint think they are) its still a CHOICE to engage in the actual homosexual act. So...........the bottom line is its a choice to paticipate in homosexuality.

Hehe. This thread is still going?

Friends, It's Christmas coming and we need to all study our bible in order to conduct our lives. I think this below is an excellent thought provoker. Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet. Very funny - and thought-provoking. Dear Dr. Laura:   Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them.   1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?   2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?   3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual cleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.   4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?   5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?   6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?   7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?   8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?   9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?  10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? -Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws?(Lev.20:14) I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. Your devoted disciple and adoring fan, Jack

Not born gay.

I don't really belive that it is a conscous "choice" as in, "I'm going to screw men today."  

But, I belive that it is more properly classified as a mental disorder.  An un-natural conditioned response to some event or defect in the psyche.  

Perhaps in some cases it is the unconscious mind "working through" a painful event.  

Or perhaps in other cases it is an attempt to gain the love and acceptance of a father figure.  Or, an attempt to remain childlike and boyish; to eschew "adult" responsibilities and mature relationships with the opposite sex.  Some are even probably hedonists or mildly sociopathic.  

I do belive that it is aberrant behavior and not a "natural" occurence.  

Excellent.

 

Chris

Quoted: Hehe. This thread is still going? Friends, It's Christmas coming and we need to all study our bible in order to conduct our lives. I think this below is an excellent thought provoker. Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet. Very funny - and thought-provoking. Dear Dr. Laura:   Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them.   1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?   2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?   3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual cleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.   4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?   5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?   6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?   7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?   8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?   9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?  10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? -Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws?(Lev.20:14) I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. Your devoted disciple and adoring fan, Jack

Quoted: Rape and sexual relations with minors are crimes.   They have nothing to do with homosexuality or sexual orientation.    They are crimes committed by people of all orientations.

Yes, they are crimes, and I agree that they should be crimes, however we're doing the woulda-shoulda game.  These things are crimes because representatives in our government decided it should be a crime.

In the woulda-shoulda game, legal is not an accurate measuring stick since legal≠right.  It can be right, and we hope and vote that it will be right, but legal is not the basis for what is right or wrong.  A couple of months ago a bayonet lug could be illegal...and still is in some states.

Onto the 2nd part, you've stated that sexual orientation has nothing to do with these crimes since these crimes are committed by all orientations.  I agree that we'll find an example from every orientation, though I do not know if there is certain demographics that are committing more crimes than their representation.  Someone posted above that a certain sexual orientation commits ~20% of a certain crime while they represent ~1-2% of society.  I don't know the veracity of that stat...I heard that 89% of all stats are made up....hehe.  But that's an example of how this type of thing can relate.

Furthermore, is an adult male who molests a boy considered homosexual (or an adult female who molests a girl)?  Why or why not?

Good post, B Fox

Well,
I personally don't see how my wife can look at me as a man and go oh baby. face it all you dudes out there. we're no catch.
were I a woman, I'd be a lesbian.

that said, I doubt very seriously it's a choice in the sense used here. more of their personal preference in who THEYchose to love.I believe they were born gay.

could YOU be turned gay? I doubt it very seriously. I suppose some would "swing" both ways. but that's none of my business either.

I don't see where it is any of my business one way or the other. as long as they're concenting adults. M.Y.O.B.
it isn't just the gays molesting kids, they seem to come from ALL walks of life.

Chris

Quoted: Not born gay. I don't really belive that it is a conscous "choice" as in, "I'm going to screw men today."   But, I belive that it is more properly classified as a mental disorder.  An un-natural conditioned response to some event or defect in the psyche.   Perhaps in some cases it is the unconscious mind "working through" a painful event.   Or perhaps in other cases it is an attempt to gain the love and acceptance of a father figure.  Or, an attempt to remain childlike and boyish; to eschew "adult" responsibilities and mature relationships with the opposite sex.  Some are even probably hedonists or mildly sociopathic.   I do belive that it is aberrant behavior and not a "natural" occurence.

Are mass murderers born that way, and can they be rehabilitated? Are child molestors born that way, and can they be converted/rehabilitated?  If someone decides they hate their penis so much that they go have a surgeon remove it so they can pretend they are a woman, is that a sign of a serious mental disorder?  

By the way, since molesting children is bad and nobody should do it because "it's against the law", then if we made being gay against the law, would it be bad too?  Why do genes make people homos but pedophillia is perpetrated by "wierdos"?  

Quoted: Quoted: Icantdance, There are hundreds of holy books written that claim to be the word of god.  So far none of them have been proven to be so. Besides, the tribulation will give all of us sinners a chance to accept Jesus and be saved just like you fundies, so don't worry about us. kthxbye There are 66 books in the Bible ... Genesis to Revelation. You say none of them have been proven to be so. Consider that "if" the Bible was written just by man alone, there would be fallicies, there are none. "If" the Bible was written by just man, and man is a sinful creature, as we all know (me included) ... then why would man write 66 books spanning 3000 years condeming man himself? Funny you remark of the tribulation ... so you have some thoughts about God ... yet, you say "you'll be givin a chance at that time! Foolish one! God will not be mocked! Repent now, and don't mock God! Do not look at His sacrifice as cheap merchandise!

There's some translation ambiguities...I didn't know the "voice" of the Lord walked in the garden, but Adam heard it walking...hehe.   Then again, there's probably some 2nd level meaning I'm skipping right over.  The Bible's great that way...read it over...and over..and over..then one day a specific passage makes so much more sense.

I have to agree with Troy. The answer is both. Some people are born this way and some make a choice for various reasons.

It's their business, not mine.

Well,
wait a second now.

isn't that how the mulahs in the middle east  do it too?

read over and over and over their bible until they can repeat it word for word and "then one day a specific passage makes so much more sense"

now that's freaky.

Chris

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Icantdance, There are hundreds of holy books written that claim to be the word of god.  So far none of them have been proven to be so. Besides, the tribulation will give all of us sinners a chance to accept Jesus and be saved just like you fundies, so don't worry about us. kthxbye There are 66 books in the Bible ... Genesis to Revelation. You say none of them have been proven to be so. Consider that "if" the Bible was written just by man alone, there would be fallicies, there are none. "If" the Bible was written by just man, and man is a sinful creature, as we all know (me included) ... then why would man write 66 books spanning 3000 years condeming man himself? Funny you remark of the tribulation ... so you have some thoughts about God ... yet, you say "you'll be givin a chance at that time! Foolish one! God will not be mocked! Repent now, and don't mock God! Do not look at His sacrifice as cheap merchandise! There's some translation ambiguities...I didn't know the "voice" of the Lord walked in the garden, but Adam heard it walking...hehe.   Then again, there's probably some 2nd level meaning I'm skipping right over.  The Bible's great that way...read it over...and over..and over..then one day a specific passage makes so much more sense.

Robbie ...

I see your point.

God does many things we cannot fathom.

Most of all, what's sure to understand, is that He sent His Son, Jesus Christ to be cursed on a cross, and rose Him from the dead 3 days later.

He has all of me!Thanks for your post.

Quoted: I have to agree with Troy. The answer is both. Some people are born this way and some make a choice for various reasons. It's their business, not mine.

That seems logical. I'll have to agree, but add one thing: the choice may not be conscious.