Quoted: Quoted: Does someone want to give us a quick rundown on what happened.  I remember the incident but considering I was still under public school indoctrination I blindly belived the media clips I saw. As others have stated, you need to watch WACO: Rules of Engagement ASAP!!!

I think I was in 6th grade at the time - I just bumped it to #1 on NetFlix.

Quoted: Quoted: ETH, Any truth to the rumor that the two ATF guys that were killed were former Arkansas State Troopers that were supposed to testify in WhiteWater? Semper Fi! I've heard that one, but I have never seen any verification of the story. It would be rather farfetched to think that they were 'set up' to take a hit for the Clinton Team. Further, it's unlikely that Arkansas State Troopers were material witnesses to anything in the Whitewater investigation. Eric The(CheckingItOut)Hun

I've heard it but never verified.  I think it was during all the "Clinton Body Count" talk.  Those supposed to testify but mysteriously died.  IIRC the Troopers were supposedly part of their protection team before going ATF.

Semper Fi!

Quoted: Quoted: Look at the film of the guy on the roof clearly.  His buddies enter the room through the window.  He blindly shoots through the window a few seconds later, he then is hit by small caliber fire comming back out of the room that his buddies went into.  The shots were rapid fire and were similar to rapid semi auto or full auto. It could not have been a .50 cal. The fellow on the roof was shot by one of his own men who was spraying wildly inside the room that was called 'The Armory.' There were NO .50 cal shots made at any time during the standoff by the citizens at Mount Carmel Church. None. Understand? Eric The(Historical)Hun

Ive got a question.  How many of you support the murder of the 17 children that were set on fire that day?  Id just like to know who Im keeping company with.

Quoted: But then, I'm still waiting for Lon Horiuchi to face justice.

 Aint that the truth!  The Lord keeps an excellent set of books, the account will be paid in full.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Look at the film of the guy on the roof clearly.  His buddies enter the room through the window.  He blindly shoots through the window a few seconds later, he then is hit by small caliber fire comming back out of the room that his buddies went into.  The shots were rapid fire and were similar to rapid semi auto or full auto. It could not have been a .50 cal. The fellow on the roof was shot by one of his own men who was spraying wildly inside the room that was called 'The Armory.' There were NO .50 cal shots made at any time during the standoff by the citizens at Mount Carmel Church. None. Understand? Eric The(Historical)Hun Ive got a question.  How many of you support the murder of the 17 children that were set on fire that day?  Id just like to know who Im keeping company with.

I'll only speak for myself.  Koresh, from all accounts that I can see, was an idiot, nut and a loose cannon.  However, I don't see anything that was done to them as justified or right, by any means.

Semper Fi!

and then theres the  alleged child molestation which had no proof and  the feds wouldnt even had jurisdiction.

Waco  just  bunch of people that wanted to be left alone.

If you guys want to see real evil, watch the congressional inquiry video of Waco. They played it live when I saw it-as badly as the event itself was, what I saw in congress was more than a cover-up job. I could spend a lifetime thinking of ways to make Schumer suffer in pain for how he cross examined/railroaded every person there who was not there to speak for the government, from the surviving victims to the chemist from the maker of the CS gas.

The most memorable part of the hearings for me was the testimony about the CS gas. The chemist said that the "gas" was in powdered form and an amount the size of a contact capsule would affect a 3 cubic foot area. The .gov purchased 6 55gal drums of the shit-used it all BTW-as well as the ferret rounds they shot into the "compound".

Further questioning of the agents had the .gov claiming the the use of the CS gas was part of the strategy to get the parents out by affecting the children. They knew that the Davidians didn't have enough gas masks to go around, and that the ones they did have wouldn't fit the children. The logic was (as stated in the hearings) that the adults would come out in order to save their children from the CS. Said another way, the .gov tortured the babies and children in order to compel the adults to cease and come out. IMO, most if not all of the Davidians were dead from asphyxiation before the fire broke out.

The saddest thing about this was that *some* of the senators were moved to tears when this part of the hearing happened. How anyone could find for the government after testimony like that is completely beyond me...

Hindsight is always 20/20-we look at Koresh like a nutbag, but I suspect most ARFCOM'ers would have stood thier ground the same. Or at least I hope they would.

Just be thankful it wasn't your church.

Dave

"We're from the Government. We're here to help."

For Gomer, LDH, and jeremy here you go boys.  Hours of stuff here.........just rememebr some of it needs to be taken with a grain of salt.


www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/picturethis.html

carolmoore.net/waco/

www.serendipity.li/waco.html

www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/

www.waco93.com/index.html

www.rickross.com/groups/waco.html

www.wacofacts.com/

www.hardylaw.net/ATF.html

i2i.org/SuptDocs/Waco/warrant.htm

Hope they are all still active.

Waco was my wakeup call and became my escape from the flock of Sheepdom.  It changed the way I thought about the federal government and law enforcement forever.

I thought in one of the scenes of Waco Rules of Engagement that they showed some film of all the weapons that were collected after the fire, I remember seeing a rusted out Barrett and the bi pod for it.  I will need to see that movie it has been a while since I saw it.  

I just loved where Shummer proved how much of a fucking asshole he is.  He said that flash bangs do not hurt you.  "they just go flash and bang"  The whiteness has a pound of play dough in his hand and said if it was a flash bang he would not want to hold it while it went off.  I wish he had a live on and said "Mr Shummer if this does not hurt you would you be ok with me putting it in your crotch and pulling the pin and have it go off?"

America Wake Up! or (Waco) by Alex Jones


This video documents how the U.S. Government grossly overstepped Constitutional Boundaries, as well as the cover up that followed with the Branch Davidians in Waco, Texas.

http://www.apfn.org/old/wacopg.htm

Listen to the 911 tapes and judge for yourself.

"E-True" channel just showed "Waco Rules Of Engagement"

Just watched it last night.  While very one sided, it  did have some information new to me. One interesting part was the analysis of the FLIR, with the gun fire in the direction of the concrete room where the women and children were, when the fire was likely forcing them outside. Does the FBI still stand by the "not a shot fired" crap?

Also, convenient that they cannot produce the video tape of the initial ATF encounter.

This makes me wonder what it might be like for the agents on the ground there. Not the ones high up making decisions, but the agents in the line of fire. I wonder what they knew at the time, the BS they were told at the time, and what their thoughts on it now are.

Look at the film of the guy on the roof clearly. His buddies enter the room through the window. He blindly shoots through the window a few seconds later, he then is hit by small caliber fire coming back out of the room that his buddies went into. The shots were rapid fire and were similar to rapid semi auto or full auto. It could not have been a .50 cal.

I remember watching it on TV that day and what you don't see anymore is him throwing a grenade or a flash bang in firstthen shooting into the room.  You also don't see the shot of the AFT agent climbing up the ladder and shooting himself in the leg. Most of the stock TV footage you see on these shows has been heavily edited.

Quoted: Just watched it last night.  While very one sided, it  did have some information new to me.

Did you say "That was very one sided!" when the mass media whitewashed the entire event when it happened?
Just asking.

April 3, 1993, Waco, Texas
A few miles from the Branch Davidian home/church, 16 days before the final assault



British Redcoat (ATF) who somehow survived into the modern era.
While he sports Woodlands Camo, Kevlar,  and modern weaponry, he still follows the old
school (King George), disarm the colonists so that tyranny may be perpetuated indefinitely.
He told a member of our party, "you better keep your head down," should hostilities ensue.





I found this site while searching for a Battle Flag.
It has some info and pics towards the bottom

www.comeandtakeit.com/

I guess I've seen too many tinfoil hat videos then. I will say this.......we saw lots of footage in the first few days here in Texas from the local Waco and Dallas stations that were never seen by most of the country.  The first day footage was very different from what was shown in the following weeks.

The footage of the guy "shooting himself" was in one of the early Linda Thompson videos so I guess I should consider the source. I will stand by the footage of the four agents on the roof. The clips shown now were not what were first broadcast.

Tagged

If the ATF agent who was shot on the roof was hit with a .50 cal, they would be picking up body parts.  Sorry, they didn't use a 50.  

Quoted: I'll only speak for myself.  Koresh, from all accounts that I can see, was an idiot, nut and a loose cannon.  However, I don't see anything that was done to them as justified or right, by any means. Semper Fi!

Compare "idiot, nut and a loose cannon" as applied to Koresh to what is said here everyday.
Would "America" understand if ATF/FBI blasted us and then showed this website to the country as justification?
This is NOT a slam to anyone here or the website........I've just heard for so long that Koresh and the Branch Davidians got what they deserved because they were just "idiot, nut and a loose cannon".

Watch the video documentaries...........look at Koresh and the BD's.........then look at what we say here every day.
Would you and I be described as "idiot, nut and a loose cannon."?
According to Joe Blow on the street I suggest we would be.

But if I were there at the "compound" with Koresh.......I would have urged a counter-attack after the ATF ran out of ammo!
Get some!
"So you wanted a fight did you!"

I like when the ATF started playing distracting noise on the loudspeakers they set up to unnerve the Davidians, and then.....

the Davidians got on their musical instruments and cranked it sooooooo LOUD that the ATF had to end its noise operation.


BTW, they were cranking some hard christian rock that sounded better to me than most of the crap thats on the radio.


too bad, what a fiasco! Fie on the ATF.

Quoted: Quoted: I'll only speak for myself.  Koresh, from all accounts that I can see, was an idiot, nut and a loose cannon.  However, I don't see anything that was done to them as justified or right, by any means. Semper Fi! Compare "idiot, nut and a loose cannon" as applied to Koresh to what is said here everyday. Would "America" understand if ATF/FBI blasted us and then showed this website to the country as justification? This is NOT a slam to anyone here or the website........I've just heard for so long that Koresh and the Branch Davidians got what they deserved because they were just "idiot, nut and a loose cannon". Watch the video documentaries...........look at Koresh and the BD's.........then look at what we say here every day. Would you and I be described as "idiot, nut and a loose cannon."? According to Joe Blow on the street I suggest we would be. But if I were there at the "compound" with Koresh.......I would have urged a counter-attack after the ATF ran out of ammo! Get some! "So you wanted a fight did you!"

I have watched video documentaries and followed it closely when it unfolded.  You'll see in my post that I stated there was no justification for the resulting actions.

Now, as far as the "nut" thing goes, I obviously didn't know him personally.  However, from documentaries and interviews with former members of the group is what I base my assessment on.

Meth lab...nope
Child abuse...nope
Unregistered firearms...maybe....do any of you jokers think it is ok to kill someone and burn there house down for a 200 dollar charge or tax. How many of you right now owe 200 dollars to anyone? IRS,State, county, credit card, loan payment? Can the feds come and kill you?

Quoted: Can the feds come and kill you?

Sure.......they've already shown they can get away with it with NO repurcussions!

Feel safe now?

Quoted: Meth lab...nope Child abuse...nope Unregistered firearms...maybe....do any of you jokers think it is ok to kill someone and burn there house down for a 200 dollar charge or tax. How many of you right now owe 200 dollars to anyone? IRS,State, county, credit card, loan payment? Can the feds come and kill you?

if I shoot first, yeah

as far as i can tell both sides bear the blame for the situation at waco. they diddnt deserve to die but once the shit hit the fan they had about as much of a chance of surviving as a innocent man in fallujah.

david koresh was a self proclaimed messiah  and a child molester. he slept with more kids than michael jackson, he engaged in adulterous behaviour with the wives of his members using the guise that he was jesus christ. he was violating nfa rules and got caught for that. i think policy on this board is usually if you do the crime be prepared to do the time, he and his followers werent and the result wasnt pretty. it was exactly what would happen if you face off against the feds with guns instead of lawyers. and for all of you wannabe heros if i recall the situation correctly no minutemen came riding into town to help them fight the oppressors. that what you have to look forward to if the feds ever knock on your door, a bunch of armchair rambos talking shit a day later. that was the day when i knew if the day came for confiscation i would bury the guns. because noone would come to anyone elses aid.

as for the federal agents what they did would be manslaughter if they werent badges.they were and so it became justifiable homicide, their perception was they were in danger and they did what they had to do.

now if several thousand people with guns had marched on waco with gun when they heard what was going on there might have been a very different outcome. there might have been some talk of restoing liberties or there might have been a much larger force waiting to meet them. either way its the past and  certainly not a shining moment for those who talk about  what they will do when the jbt's come for the guns. it diddnt change anything a few years later when the freemen of montana were under siege, after 81 days they surrendered, noone came to help them.

put simply if you fight you may just die on your doorstep without anyone coming to help you.....or you can surrender and fight in court with lawyers.


for the rest of you keep watching the videos and everything else that says the "truth"  and keep hyping what you would have done and then remember what you actually did....

Quoted: as far as i can tell both sides bear the blame for the situation at waco. they diddnt deserve to die but once the shit hit the fan they had about as much of a chance of surviving as a innocent man in fallujah. david koresh was a self proclaimed messiah  and a child molester. he slept with more kids than michael jackson, he engaged in adulterous behaviour with the wives of his members using the guise that he was jesus christ. he was violating nfa rules and got caught for that. i think policy on this board is usually if you do the crime be prepared to do the time, he and his followers werent and the result wasnt pretty. it was exactly what would happen if you face off against the feds with guns instead of lawyers. and for all of you wannabe heros if i recall the situation correctly no minutemen came riding into town to help them fight the oppressors. that what you have to look forward to if the feds ever knock on your door, a bunch of armchair rambos talking shit a day later. that was the day when i knew if the day came for confiscation i would bury the guns. because noone would come to anyone elses aid. as for the federal agents what they did would be manslaughter if they werent badges.they were and so it became justifiable homicide, their perception was they were in danger and they did what they had to do. now if several thousand people with guns had marched on waco with gun when they heard what was going on there might have been a very different outcome. there might have been some talk of restoing liberties or there might have been a much larger force waiting to meet them. either way its the past and  certainly not a shining moment for those who talk about  what they will do when the jbt's come for the guns. it diddnt change anything a few years later when the freemen of montana were under siege, after 81 days they surrendered, noone came to help them. put simply if you fight you may just die on your doorstep without anyone coming to help you.....or you can surrender and fight in court with lawyers. for the rest of you keep watching the videos and everything else that says the "truth"  and keep hyping what you would have done and then remember what you actually did....

With the exception of punctuation and capitalization, I thought that was very well said.

2gun, are you a democrat? Where do you get your info?
The government put meth lab on the warrant...not true
then they decided to try child abuse....the local sheriff said not true...repeatedly
then they tried nfa...do you know that a liscense holder lived there?
Those people were murdered by the government premeditated and in cold blood.
If they wanted an arrest, they could have got it any day of the week. David went running everyday and was in town quite often. They did a tactical entry with bad starting position and bad info and were amazed that someone shot back. This is texas, if you did the same thing on thousands of ranch houses, you would expect the same result.

Quoted: they diddnt deserve to die but once the shit hit the fan they had about as much of a chance of surviving as a innocent man in fallujah.

Quoted: 2gun, are you a democrat? Where do you get your info? The government put meth lab on the warrant...not true then they decided to try child abuse....the local sheriff said not true...repeatedly then they tried nfa...do you know that a liscense holder lived there? Those people were murdered by the government premeditated and in cold blood. If they wanted an arrest, they could have got it any day of the week. David went running everyday and was in town quite often. They did a tactical entry with bad starting position and bad info and were amazed that someone shot back. This is texas, if you did the same thing on thousands of ranch houses, you would expect the same result.

Well,  I may have egg on my face for agreeing with 2gun.  However, as I understand it from statements of past memebers, child abuse was accused.  Drugs were not part of the warrant but later eluded to so as to gain military support.

First let say this.  As I've stated before, it was an autrocity.  However, if Koresh was such an upstanding individual, peaceful and just spreading the word of God, did the Fed's just throw a dart at a map to see who they were going to fuck with that day?

I don't profess to know the whole story but I truly believe that he was far from being a Saint.  That is still NO EXCUSE for the results.  

THE CHILD ABUSE ALLEGATIONS WOULD NOT HAVE FALLEN UNDER FEDERAL JURUSDICTION.  

even if true the feds would have had no right to be there. and also from what I recall they came up after the initital botched raid.

Quoted: Quoted: Meth lab...nope Child abuse...nope Unregistered firearms...maybe....do any of you jokers think it is ok to kill someone and burn there house down for a 200 dollar charge or tax. How many of you right now owe 200 dollars to anyone? IRS,State, county, credit card, loan payment? Can the feds come and kill you? if I shoot first, yeah

The gov shot first.

Sounds like some people took the bullshit film "In the Line of Duty: Ambush in Waco" at face value.

There was no proof of child molestation. The couple of people who testified for the government later stated that they had been told what to say and that none of it was true.

The drug charges were later added so the government could use the military since the BATF clearly didn't know what they were doing. One of the Army's people (who testified and made the BATF look like morons) said they had little more than an "Oh, shit! contingency plan".

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Meth lab...nope Child abuse...nope Unregistered firearms...maybe....do any of you jokers think it is ok to kill someone and burn there house down for a 200 dollar charge or tax. How many of you right now owe 200 dollars to anyone? IRS,State, county, credit card, loan payment? Can the feds come and kill you? if I shoot first, yeah The gov shot first.

they did? I retract my statement

What's the age of consent in TX for spouses?  Is there even a validated law on the books yet?

That's why there's "nothing" behind the child molestation charges.  In almost any other state he'd of been in a jail cell.

Koresh was a baby fucker - and apparently he usually had the parent's permission.

Sure the .gov screwed the pooch on the raid - but I wish Koresh was still alive so they could burn him down again.

Those other people (victims of the fed just as much as there of Koresh) could have walked out the front door anytime they wanted if it weren't for him keeping them there with his heretical, "I am the lamb" lines.  

How many escaped with their families in tow during the siege? ?

How many escaped on the day of the final raid?  35.

Koresh was a piece of shit. I don't like whackos or cults anymore than you do. Fact of the matter, ATF found a marginalized group to assault. When they came out holding illegal guns high over their heads, they thought that would make them look good. People would be happy to see the Davidians disarmed. Its not like you can imagine them being your neighbors. The first step is to alienate the populace from the governments enemies. The Nazis used the Star of David, our government teaches people to be afriand of armed cults or militias. Then you can trample over them all you want and people will watch and cheer from the sidelines.

Quoted: I don't profess to know the whole story but I truly believe that he was far from being a Saint.  That is still NO EXCUSE for the results.

dolomite, why don't you quit drooling and go take your meds. Koresh was investigated by the local county sheriff for child abuse...it never happened. It was made up just like the drugs so that people like you would support the government killing people that were different.

Fact of the matter, ATF found a marginalized group to assault. When they came out holding illegal guns high over their heads, they thought that would make them look good. People would be happy to see the Davidians disarmed.



Happy to see them disarmed. Heck people with that many wepons are people I wanna hang out with. Not see burnt out of their home!!!!

there has been one (1) incident in the whole world of a .50 being used in a crime

Here is one and maybe two. Neither any cause for regulations against the caliber. Ants, Bees, Dogs, Cats, sharks, and unarmed humans kill more people in a year then any .50 caliber has or ever will  in this country.

On February 27, 1992, a Wells Fargo armored delivery truck was attacked in a "military style operation" in Chamblee, Georgia, by several men using a smoke grenade and a Barrett 50 caliber sniper rifle. "The Atlanta Journal Constitution, February 27, 1992" (It doesn't say if it was actually fired.)

There was a smililar incident like this in the late 70's where a Armored Car took 3 AP rounds to the window beofre the guards opened up to surrender.  In Washington state i believe. (lets not make this an issue, it seems to have been forgoten about. (a little research can prove it i imagine)

I have 3 .50's and am moving them all out of california rather then registering them to pay yearly for these people to make more antigun laws, the .50 Ban should have been veto'ed.

I am not Pro-Antigun laws for finding this...lol.

Quoted: Well,  I may have egg on my face for agreeing with 2gun.  However, as I understand it from statements of past memebers, child abuse was accused.  Drugs were not part of the warrant but later eluded to so as to gain military support.

Umm, no. The .mil was involved with training them for a month prior at Ft. Hood. It was not "alluded to", it was on a warrant, the only way to get military assistance in a police matter because the "War On Drugs" is exempted in the Posse Commitatus Act.

From every account I've seen, from the words of the local sherrif to the local social workers, there was never a problem of child abuse inside the "compound". How does one totally Villify a person and make America turn it's head? Yep, call 'em child molesters.  I mean, think about it! ONE person was named in the arrest warrant, David Koresh. He was the one who was accused on the gun charges, then later the molestation charges. So you are telling me that the .gov thought it was ok to kill 91 people because ONE MAN may have *possibly* broke the law?

I don't care how you see it-the actions of one man should have never cost all those people their lives. If you ask me, the .gov screwed up, shot first then had to cover it up. Koresh's son (4 y/o) was killed in the first seconds of the initial raid, outside of the building, so that should tell you something....

Dave

http://web.elastic.org/~fche/mirrors/www.indirect.com/www/dhardy/ATF.html

The ATF went to Ft. Hood and told them they were running an anti drug raid. This was because theh war on drugs is one of the few places the Army can be involved in Federal LE. There was a stink last year because some say that Wesley Clark is the one who OK'ed it, although I understand it was a subordinate of his. They trained with soldiers at Ft. Hood, I have seen the footage.