Quoted: Don't like it?  Then do something about it. Married with young kids?   WOMAN NEEDS TO BE AT HOME! Sgatr15

I agree, mostly.  I think it's okay if the husband stays home, or if the husband and wife switch off whose home, but a parent should always be home for the kids (except in extreme situations, like going to the hospital, or the dentist, or something for part of a single day).

Fact is, if you can't  afford to raise a kid on a single-parent income (at least for the forminative years of their life, when they'd need day care if you're gone), then you're living at too high a standard of living.  Move into a smaller house, sell one of the cars, shop at budget-clothing stores, etc, to free up the money to allow a parent to stay home.

Quoted: Quoted: I highly doubt that most families need two parents working away from home when they have young kids. I just don't buy it. Fact is this.  Schools started teaching "life skills" around the same time both parents started working outside the home. So you have no on to blame be yourselves. SGatr15 You may have a point about working parents but I don't entirely agree with you.  My wife and I both work, have for the 21 years we have been married and we have raised 3 fantastic boys.  I have people tell me all the time that my kids are the most responsible, respectful kids they have ever seen.  It's all in how YOU raise them and the values you have and instill in your children.   But you're right, it's not about the schools, it's about the parents.

You are wrong.  The ARFCOM hive-mind says you are a bad parent, and your children are raging hellions becuase you refuse to retreat into the seclusion of your home to raise your kids free from all outside influences.  Repent your ways and lash yourself for your transgression!

Quoted: They do if they want the big screen, and the boat, and cable tv, and a vcr, and nintendo, and fancy vacations.... My parents understood that having children meant having to sacrifice some of those things.  We were the only family in the neighborhood that didn't have cable, or a microwave, or new cars, or a VCR (this was the '80s, substitute DVD I guess these days), and we took vacations to grandma & grandpa's house.  My friends had all of those luxury items.  My parents also kept the windows open & the AC off as much as possible.  My mom stayed home until my brother went off to kindergarten, and then worked part time to be home when my brother and I got home.  Eventually she went to work fulltime when she knew that my brother and I could handle ourselves alone in the afternoon.  If my brother and I wanted a new bike, or a nintendo, or whatever we saved up doing odd jobs around the neighborhood and bought it our damn selves. My mother volunteered at the public schools we went to, and even when she worked she still made time to be on committees & whatnot that met in the evenings.  My brother and I could both read by the time we got to kindergarten. Today I am the only one of my friends that went to college, I have a bachelor's and a master's degree, I have a job in management with an unlimited future, and I make at least twice what any of my friends from back home do.  Somehow I don't miss that GI Joe aircraft carrier and watching Fraggles on HBO so much now.

I agree 100% with your ideas; I didn't have the same experience growing up, but I agree with what you're saying.

Quoted: WOMAN NEEDS TO BE AT HOME! Sgatr15

I agree that it all hinges around how the parents choose to raise their children. They can either do it themselves or pay someone else to do it. My wife and I chose (and daily choose) to raise ours. Once the parents choose to allow someone else do the work, the parents still need to be involved to insure that the values they want their children to learn are being taught. If they aren't involved, they should NOT bitch about it.

My first child spent his first two years in daycare. We eventually wised up and decided that my wife should become a Domestic Affairs Coordinator (AKA: Mommy); thus giving up a Regional HR Manager position. It wasn't as financially devastating as we expected. If we had crunched the numbers long before then, we would have seen that her salary was doing little more than pay for daycare, her clothes, and her other expenses associated with being employed. Yes, we had to become a little more frugal in some areas, such as not eating out 2-3 times per week and buying whatever/whenever we wanted. We had to become good stewards of our money.

I personally have no qualms about bitching about the schools IF the bitching is kept in context with the parents' choices. I bitch about the cost because I pay taxes and my kids are not in the schools, by my choice. Naturally, I could move and reduce the taxes, but I choose to stay here. (So what if I'm a little crotchety at times.) I don't bitch about the quality or content of what's being taught, though.

My oldest is being homeschooled through a homeschool enrichment program. He spends 2 days a week in a classroom environment, two-days being taught by his mother, and 1 day for "field trips" (zoo, library, fishing, hunting , etc.) The school we use is: Coram Deo Academy My wife also involved with the school as are many of the other mothers. So far, it is going very well.

I'll stop before I get too wound up about parents (people) not taking responsibility for their actions.

sgt_seti

Quoted: Quoted: I highly doubt that most families need two parents working away from home when they have young kids. I just don't buy it. Fact is this.  Schools started teaching "life skills" around the same time both parents started working outside the home. So you have no on to blame be yourselves. SGatr15 You may have a point about working parents but I don't entirely agree with you.  My wife and I both work, have for the 21 years we have been married and we have raised 3 fantastic boys.  I have people tell me all the time that my kids are the most responsible, respectful kids they have ever seen.  It's all in how YOU raise them and the values you have and instill in your children.   But you're right, it's not about the schools, it's about the parents.

Oh I am sure it can be done to one extent or another.  Like you said, it comes down to the parents.  You and your wife obviously have more energy the I do.  I think that's great.  Sounds like you did a good job.  Like you stated however it took ALOT more involvement on YOUR part.  That's what I am satying.  

Want to work?

Fine...but never at the expense of your kids.  ANd if you don't raise them then don't bitch when the state does.


SGatr15

Quoted: Quoted: If you have to work two jobs just to have a roof over your head, fuck you, you don't deserve to have kids.. I'm keeping my thoughts to myself about your greatnesses proclomations about our families worthiness to have children.  Raise yours how you like the rest of us can get by without your sage advise. All I'm going to say is that we could move back to shack, and home school, or we can raise her as best we can while still making a retirement for us, and a college fund for her.  Somehow millions of kids manage to be raised right in spite of their evil, useless parents who work.  Yes there will be undesirable parts of her going to daycare.  At the same time we intend to be parents not just part time child care workers who put the kid to bed and get back to our busy lives.   If I see a problem that requires a change in lifestyle we'll make it.

So I'll just ask you one simple question:

Do you think that having children is a right?

I'm with Sarge on much of this, but have a bit of a different slant.

The schools are messed up because most parents (in any particluar school system) don't care.  Period.

In communities where parents are involved with the kids and their schools, the kids do better. Not ALL the kids, but most of them.

I grew up in a single parent household. My Mom worked.  She also gave a shit about:

1. What was happening in my school
2. What I did at home
3. What I did after school

Much of what follows is public school heresy:
If you present a group of kids with the same information, some will learn and some will not.  Much of the outcome is based on the values that they learned at home.  What they are presented will, to a large extent, be based on what the community demands of the school system.  If the parents support the teacher and staff, especially where it concerns discipline, the children will learn.  If not, then the school spends much of its time and effort re-training and disciplining children that should have been getting it at home.

The answer?

I'm not ready to chuck the public school system.  After all, even if I withdraw my kids, they still get my taxes and I refuse to let my "fee to have a voice" go unused.  I don't know what it's going to take, but things will only get better when parents actually go to the school and see what's happening.  They need to go to PTA meetings, go to teacher conferences, read their childs report card and, most of all, demand more of everyone in the process; especially themselves.  This is the toughest part, and the limiiting factor in any success a plan like this might have.

I invite everyone who pays taxes to go to a school board meeting. Go to "Back to School Night", even if you do not have a kid in the school system.  Your taxes are paying for what goes on in the schools in your community.  Demand more.  The output of these schools will determine the kind of future we all have--yours included.

Thanks for listening. this is a subject I am so passionate about, I'm finishing my degree and going to teach High School English (with a 20% cut in pay).

Fatman

Quoted: So I'll just ask you one simple question: Do you think that having children is a right?

The ability too physically produce them?  Yes... how do you propose to stop someone if you decide they shouldn't?  Breeding license?  Do I view my child as a right, as something that is here to make me happy?  No.  I recognize that because of the choices we make to try and make a better financial situation for ourselves and our child that I have to be involved deeply with the time we do get to spend together.  Truthfully I like to spend time with her far more than I enjoy watching the garbage on TV or reading the garbage on the net.  

So to answer your question, yes.  I don't see how it could be viewed otherwise, and like all other rights it brings with it responsibilities.   If parents fulfill those requirements by home schooling, by mom staying home, by working hard after daycare then they have done what is required.  If they fail to take the effort and time and turn their back on the child then society has to step in.  What would you propose? Norman gets to decide who procreates?

I understand your tack (i think) and I probably agree to some extent.  Piss poor way to word it though.