Quoted: Quoted: So everyone who was in the Air National Guard and the Air Force Reserve who did not go to Vietnam falls into the catagoy of "rich elite" then. Hmmmm....... No that's not what I said, but I do believe that any rich elite who wanted to get into the ANG could and did.  And those that did were put ahead of others on a list because of their connections.  It happens all the time and still does.  Rich guys get to keep thier licenses for DUI's, regular folk don't.

And according to the Director of Operations of the TANG, President Bush didn't jump over anyone in a waiting list. The waiting list was for general recruits for the National Guard. Anyone passing the test requirements for fighter training was automatically in because they were in short supply. So Bush didn't take anyone's spot.

Are you really that stupid?  Just wow.

Quoted: No fuckstick, you call anyone who spent at least one day in the US Military who got out with an honerable discharge a Veteran, not just those who served in a war zone. Quoted: Hey, what do you call the worst soldier to ever be in a war zone??? A VETERAN And they ALL deserve our respect, even if they are a Democrat

[edit for personal attacks]
You state that I am not worth your time, yet you then take the time to respond to my post.
Go away little troll and spew your lies and half-truths somewhere else.

Quoted: You are not worth my time

Quoted: Now THAT is an intelligent reply.  It helps you so much in your argument.

Quoted: You are a liar, you talk out of your ass and you can't keep your word. You state that I am not worth your time, yet you then take the time to respond to my post. Go away little troll and spew your lies and half-truths somewhere else. Quoted: You are not worth my time Quoted: Now THAT is an intelligent reply.  It helps you so much in your argument.

I'll never go away

One of the reasons Bush doesn't make a big deal about the military issue is simple, his own record, is less then sterling.  He cannot run on his military record of 30 years ago and expect to win.  So he doesn't.  Instead he focuses on the issues of the 21st century and what he is doing to address those.  Kerry's war record of 30 years ago is equally unimportant since he's not the same man he was 30 years ago...forget about thirty years ago, Kerry isn't the same guy he was before the last opinion poll results came in.

I don't care about what either of them did 30 years ago so long as it wasn't criminal.  What I'm interested in is how each has grown or failed to grow as a human being since then, and what their record of achievement is, their legislative records and their thinking on important issues.

George Bush admits he wasn't the best human being when he was young and that he had an alcohol problem that he has come to terms with.  That shows real maturity. He has a good record as a commercial executive in the oil business taking risks with his own and other people's money and succeeding more than he failed.  That's good.  He was a very popular governor in Texas, and is well liked by those who take the time to get to know him rather than just spouting off.  His religious faith is real, not just a ticket to be punched.  His compassion for those less fortunate than him is real compassion, not Kerry's "noblesse oblige"  (Those are Kerry's words, not mine and indicate a clear elitism to me.) Despite his honest concern and caring for the soldiers Bush has the moral courage to send them into harm's way anyhow despite the real impact the war has had on his popularity ratings, in fact there really isn't much indication in his presidency that he spends too much time worrying about opinion polls and popularity ratings.  Bush does what he believes to be right and damn all the personal consequences....that right there tells me that he, not John Kerry, is the better leader and the better man, not just for the job at hand, but in general.

I'm voting George W. Bush, not because he's a saint, he isn't, not because I agree with all his ideas, I don't, but because he's a better man than John Kerry and a better leader.

If the above statements are true that:

A) Bush's draft number was 327, effectively meaning he never would have been called to serve, and,

B)Men who were qualified to enter pilot training were in short supply, therefore GWB didn't take some poor, undereducated, minority, impoverished, transvestite's "spot" in the TXANG,

then Darwindog's arguments become less than credible and mere class warfare hysteria.

Quoted: I'm voting for Bush, but I don't understand this bull about both of the candidate's service during the Vietnam war... If Bush volunteered to serve the first time and was denied because he didn't have enough flying hours, why didn't he get his hours logged before he tried to sign up again? Do you have ANY idea how one goes about getting flight hours in the military as a 1LT? He cen't just walk up to the flight line and check out a fighter like it's a rent-a-cessna at the local airstrip. He gets as many flight hours as his superiors allow him to have It makes it look as if it was just a jesture that he knew he was never going to be able to fulfill.  And if he REALLY wanted to serve, why didn't he sign up to go as opposed to the ANG? Doesn't matter, he signed up, got his wings, and did his duty where he was I don't like Kerry's stand on almost every issue, but this dragging his medals through the mud, and the disrespesct for his service is appalling to me.   Kerry was in Vietnam and risked his life for our freedom.  If he came back home and decided that is was an unjust war, that is his right, and if he didn't risk his ass he may not have had that right.  I know it is bullshit, and it is one of the reasons I detest Kerry, but in any event he put his life on the line.  Kerry was a grandstanding moron... Taking an 8mm movie camera with him to war & having his troops do re-enactments, self-awarding medals, and such... Then lying about the war when he got home Bush did not go to Vietnam.  Period.  I don't want hear about how he tried, but wasn't allowed.  That's bull.  I also don't want to hear about how the rich kids didn't have any special treatment when it came to NG appointments.  America has always had two classes, the common man and the rich elite.  The rich get away with stuff that the common man will never be able to prove. Bullshit. Yes, there were more 'rich' folks in combat-arms with the ANG. Same for the Air Force, USN Aviation, and such... Guess why? Because in order to fly, you gotta be an officer. That means 4 year degree required, which back in the 60s/70s was not exactly as 'common' as it is now... Yeah, Bush got into the TANG, and some HS graduate from the same area probably went to Vietnam with the Army... Oh well, that's life. If you don't have the degree, no bars for you -> no flying...  Oh, and I actually tried & got rejected for the AF a year & a half ago (MDQ for depth perception), so I know the process quite well... Bush got selected for qualification, not for being Bush... Also, I have incredible respect for anyone who not only gets an AF/ANG or USN commision, but also manages to earn pilot wings. They don't just give 'em away for free ya know - between 40-60% of those who try FAIL in the present program, IIRC... Lets focus on the real reasons we shouldn't vote for Kerry and not throw rocks from our glass house.

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