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Posted: 5/26/2024 11:48:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ZippZ]
[#1]
Have Poland lease a 5 mile strip of land along Ukraine's entire northern border and move their troops into it for "training purposes". Then Ukraine can pull their troops out to use elsewhere.
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Posted: 5/26/2024 11:50:07 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperSixOne: They do. Probably the largest land army in Europe along with the French. F-16's, F-35's, Abrams, Patriot. It's like a mini US military. They also likely have their own nukes. |
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Posted: 5/27/2024 12:03:11 AM EDT
[#3]
Eastern Europe concerned they might have to deal with their own problem, raising concerns that American defense contractors would not benefit.
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Posted: 5/27/2024 12:03:25 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By OscarD: For as much as we’ve wasted on this conflict so far we could have hired 100 first rate assassins for a fraction. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By OscarD: Originally Posted By eurotrash: CIA needs to whack Putin. For as much as we’ve wasted on this conflict so far we could have hired 100 first rate assassins for a fraction. The only president the CIA ever successfully whacked was JFK. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 5/27/2024 12:15:35 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Pallas: My solution to this is to draw a line down the center of UKR, let the Russians have the east side and NATO the west side. NATO now has a buffer zone, Russia now has a buffer zone. Problem solved, where is my Nobel Peace Prize? |
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Posted: 5/27/2024 2:24:25 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By OscarD: Given Russias less than impressive performance in Ukraine my fears of them invading a NATO member are nonexistent. In a conventional war the US would stomp them into a greasy spot in no time. The people spouting that nonsense here are pants on head. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By OscarD: Originally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By Chisum: Better to fight it out in Ukraine than all over Europe. If Russia got into a shooting war with NATO this conflict that has taken Ukraine over 2 years to essentially lose would be over in a weekend. That isn't going to happen. We know it, NATO knows it, Russia knows it. It's just fearmongering towards the lowest common denominator designed to create pressure for the US to invest much more heavily in funding this war. Given Russias less than impressive performance in Ukraine my fears of them invading a NATO member are nonexistent. In a conventional war the US would stomp them into a greasy spot in no time. The people spouting that nonsense here are pants on head. |
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Posted: 5/27/2024 2:37:00 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RichinCM: What's old is new again. Treaty entanglements pull major nations into bloody war. You would have thought we figured this out a century ago. The left hasn't managed to sufficiently attrit our remaining allies enough that we've had a chance to find that out yet, but they're working on it. |
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Posted: 5/27/2024 2:53:02 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By blue2golf: Jailing political enemies, inciting street violence, media parroting government agitprop....feeling more and more familiar here. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By blue2golf: Originally Posted By TheOTHERmaninblack: Have you ever lived under a Soviet style regime? While I haven't, I've known a good many, including family members, who have. They don't look at Russia the same way most Americans do. They've already been on that ride. You may get to see Poland adapt a full war footing. When that happens, the size of their military will balloon, and you'll know that things are about to slap the snot out of your normalcy bias. Jailing political enemies, inciting street violence, media parroting government agitprop....feeling more and more familiar here.  Attached File |
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Posted: 5/27/2024 3:11:05 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By eurotrash: CIA needs to whack Putin. Well, while past performance is no guarantee of future results, if they can get him to Dealey Plaza they have a shot at it... 
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Posted: 5/27/2024 8:08:48 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fadedsun: "Europe needs to do more! They should be doing the heavy lifting!" "BUT NOT LIKE THAT! WW3! DOOM!"  Dude, you were post #27 in this thread. Literally no one before you posted anything remotely like that. One guy posted an idea for Russia and NATO to divide Ukraine in half, that was maybe the closest thing. One guy said he hopes Poland has lots of military supplies stockpiled. Most posts have been wishing Poland well. |
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Posted: 5/27/2024 8:09:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: colklink]
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1Andy2: lol yep. I'd credit it as hypocrisy if I thought it was anything more than regurgitating the latest talking point Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1Andy2: Originally Posted By fadedsun: "Europe needs to do more! They should be doing the heavy lifting!" "BUT NOT LIKE THAT! WW3! DOOM!" lol yep. I'd credit it as hypocrisy if I thought it was anything more than regurgitating the latest talking point Who posted that in this thread? Please quote it. Ok, 1 guy posted essentially that. After you both posted it. |
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Posted: 5/27/2024 8:35:40 AM EDT
[#12]
It will be a good day when Russia is eliminated from planet Earth.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/27/2024 8:43:19 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Pallas: My solution to this is to draw a line down the center of UKR, let the Russians have the east side and NATO the west side. NATO now has a buffer zone, Russia now has a buffer zone. Problem solved, where is my Nobel Peace Prize? You get the peace prize after the wall comes down... |
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Posted: 5/27/2024 8:45:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Kihn]
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheOTHERmaninblack: See, the problem with your logic is that you fail to understand the entire point of treaties. They're supposed to pull major nations into war if tripped. Makes aggressors less likely to trip them. Whereas, if you're dangling your balls in the wind without backup, you're a much more attractive target. The left hasn't managed to sufficiently attrit our remaining allies enough that we've had a chance to find that out yet, but they're working on it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheOTHERmaninblack: Originally Posted By RichinCM: What's old is new again. Treaty entanglements pull major nations into bloody war. You would have thought we figured this out a century ago. The left hasn't managed to sufficiently attrit our remaining allies enough that we've had a chance to find that out yet, but they're working on it. Oh yeah. That theory panned out well in WW I. WW II also. But with reluctance because of WW I. It's complicated (Britain and France had no problem telling Czechoslovakia to fuck the right off with the existing treates). |
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Posted: 5/27/2024 8:51:17 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ODA_564: Article 5 only kicks in if a NATO country is attacked (and even then it isn't automatic). If a NATO country is the aggressor there's no Article 5 obligation on alliance members. True. But which NATO country is the aggressor in the Russian-Ukraine invasion? They travelled all the way to Iraq and A-stan to help US out so why not go next door to help out a neighbor? Anyway, waiting until AFTER Russia succeeds would be stupid and way too late unless the Baltics and Poland want to fight Russia (and Ukraine) on their own soil. Defeating Russia in Ukraine would be the best deal since the Louisiana purchase! |
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Posted: 5/27/2024 8:53:53 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By erazor55: Can we expect any of them to come help us protect our border? Probably. Unless our border invasion is by invitation and intentional by a subversive internal enemy. They would probably call that a civil war and stay out. China may send "peace-keepers" though to help the demo-commies consolidate power. |
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Posted: 5/27/2024 11:49:25 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By colklink: Who posted that in this thread? Please quote it. Ok, 1 guy posted essentially that. After you both posted it. C:/Users/Documents/Ukraine/Ukraine_Narrative/Europe |
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Posted: 5/27/2024 11:59:08 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: C:/Users/Documents/Ukraine/Ukraine_Narrative/Europe Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By colklink: Who posted that in this thread? Please quote it. Ok, 1 guy posted essentially that. After you both posted it. C:/Users/Documents/Ukraine/Ukraine_Narrative/Europe I find it really weird. Its like they want to preemptively complain about something 
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Posted: 5/27/2024 5:37:31 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Pallas: My solution to this is to draw a line down the center of UKR, let the Russians have the east side and NATO the west side. NATO now has a buffer zone, Russia now has a buffer zone. Problem solved, where is my Nobel Peace Prize? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Pallas: My solution to this is to draw a line down the center of UKR, let the Russians have the east side and NATO the west side. NATO now has a buffer zone, Russia now has a buffer zone. Problem solved, where is my Nobel Peace Prize? Siding with the aggressor always works out so well. Peace for our time We already had a plan in place that Russia agreed to. Why not follow that plan? Originally Posted By erazor55: Can we expect any of them to come help us protect our border? Is the border a military problem or act of war? It's neither. Originally Posted By OscarD: For as much as we’ve wasted on this conflict so far we could have hired 100 first rate assassins for a fraction. Would have solved a lot of problems, for sure. Originally Posted By Chisum: Better to fight it out in Ukraine than all over Europe. Agreed. Originally Posted By 1Andy2: lol yep. I'd credit it as hypocrisy if I thought it was anything more than regurgitating the latest talking point Bingo. |
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Posted: 5/27/2024 5:51:15 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kihn: Oh yeah. That theory panned out well in WW I. WW II also. But with reluctance because of WW I. It's complicated (Britain and France had no problem telling Czechoslovakia to fuck the right off with the existing treates). Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kihn: Originally Posted By TheOTHERmaninblack: Originally Posted By RichinCM: What's old is new again. Treaty entanglements pull major nations into bloody war. You would have thought we figured this out a century ago. The left hasn't managed to sufficiently attrit our remaining allies enough that we've had a chance to find that out yet, but they're working on it. Oh yeah. That theory panned out well in WW I. WW II also. But with reluctance because of WW I. It's complicated (Britain and France had no problem telling Czechoslovakia to fuck the right off with the existing treates). By and large, NATO has kept the world relatively peaceful for a good many years. It saw the end of the USSR that many people worldwide insisted was invincible, and should be kowtowed to. NATO has been so successful that many former comblock nations --nations who understand fully what living under the communist boot feels like-- are joining the minute they're allowed. So many of them that Vlad is chafing at the restrictions it's been placing on his ambitions. So he's been slowly gobbling up land, feeling ahead with his toes for the boot to come down and tell him, "that's far enough." I'm not going to keep going on about it, though. Isolationists don't live in the same world the rest of us do, and tend to ignore anything that doesn't comport with their worldview. |
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Posted: 5/27/2024 6:07:12 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: True. But which NATO country is the aggressor in the Russian-Ukraine invasion? They travelled all the way to Iraq and A-stan to help US out so why not go next door to help out a neighbor? Anyway, waiting until AFTER Russia succeeds would be stupid and way too late unless the Baltics and Poland want to fight Russia (and Ukraine) on their own soil. Defeating Russia in Ukraine would be the best deal since the Louisiana purchase! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Originally Posted By ODA_564: Article 5 only kicks in if a NATO country is attacked (and even then it isn't automatic). If a NATO country is the aggressor there's no Article 5 obligation on alliance members. True. But which NATO country is the aggressor in the Russian-Ukraine invasion? They travelled all the way to Iraq and A-stan to help US out so why not go next door to help out a neighbor? Anyway, waiting until AFTER Russia succeeds would be stupid and way too late unless the Baltics and Poland want to fight Russia (and Ukraine) on their own soil. Defeating Russia in Ukraine would be the best deal since the Louisiana purchase! As a note, the rest of this is general, and not aimed at you. Just thought I'd head that one off before I start my rant.   Yep, some of what the Ukes are doing is bad shit. It's eastern Europe. Doing bad shit is SOP there. Too many of you equate the world with America. That's dumb. Even as low as we've sunk, we're still freer than the vast majority of the world. Things we take for granted amaze and terrify the citizens of many other nations. And, bad as they are, the Ukrainians are still orders of magnitude better than the Russians. And further, much of the shit certain russiabros are gobbling up like gelato is fake, ginned up by the Russian propaganda machine. The recent video of the "Ukrainian soldiers burning Trump in effigy" is a prime example. They had the right weapons, the right uniforms, and were speaking Ukrainian. But they were, for some strange (or not) reason, with Russian accents. And yes, before you break your keyboard hammering out ghost of kyiv bullshit, I'm fully aware that both sides use propaganda to the fullest. And? Propaganda is a weapon, get used to it. It's going to be front and center from now on. You've got to actively vet EVERYthing you hear or see these days. You can't just assume because it was posted by somebody you see as otherwise reliable that it's true. Check multiple sources. I've been finding that many of the most egregious claims (ATMs on the black market, for instance) are false. As are some of the anti Russia claims. In the end, who is the aggressor. That'll give you your hint. |
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Posted: 5/27/2024 6:09:27 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fadedsun: Siding with the aggressor always works out so well. Peace for our time We already had a plan in place that Russia agreed to. Why not follow that plan? Is the border a military problem or act of war? It's neither. Would have solved a lot of problems, for sure. Agreed. Bingo. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fadedsun: Originally Posted By Pallas: My solution to this is to draw a line down the center of UKR, let the Russians have the east side and NATO the west side. NATO now has a buffer zone, Russia now has a buffer zone. Problem solved, where is my Nobel Peace Prize? Siding with the aggressor always works out so well. Peace for our time We already had a plan in place that Russia agreed to. Why not follow that plan? Originally Posted By erazor55: Can we expect any of them to come help us protect our border? Is the border a military problem or act of war? It's neither. Originally Posted By OscarD: For as much as we've wasted on this conflict so far we could have hired 100 first rate assassins for a fraction. Would have solved a lot of problems, for sure. Originally Posted By Chisum: Better to fight it out in Ukraine than all over Europe. Agreed. Originally Posted By 1Andy2: lol yep. I'd credit it as hypocrisy if I thought it was anything more than regurgitating the latest talking point Bingo. |
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Posted: 5/27/2024 6:41:54 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Pallas: My solution to this is to draw a line down the center of UKR, let the Russians have the east side and NATO the west side. NATO now has a buffer zone, Russia now has a buffer zone. Problem solved, where is my Nobel Peace Prize? kinda sucks for the Ukranians, but we've been doing the same thing for over a century so I guess that makes it ok . |
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Posted: 5/27/2024 6:43:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Kihn]
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheOTHERmaninblack: It's not an infallible system. It's just better than trying to roll alone. WWI kicked off because various countries really, really wanted to put Germany "in its place" The assassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand was just a handy excuse. WWII happened because the same actors were STILL trying to put Germany "in its place." And yet, America is its own nation because one of those same actors, in a previous incarnation, came to our aid. We actually saved Britain and France- both times. No complaints. About that. What WW I did was kick off Communism. And Progressivism- in many forms. To include the United Nations (after morphing out of the League of Nations). Which is still Progressivism writ large today. Secular imperialism. Neoconism. ... By and large, NATO has kept the world relatively peaceful for a good many years. It saw the end of the USSR that many people worldwide insisted was invincible, and should be kowtowed to. No. It did not. Communism spread eastward after their failed attempts to suck in the Central European countries after WW I. Initially. It's success as a secular imperialist force was in the spread eastward into places like China. And from there into Africa and Cuba. This is where the body counts of that one hundred million victims of communism began to count (WW II don't count because we were frenemies). In places like Vietnam. Cambodia. The world was not anywhere near peaceful. It took RR to change the direction of successes of Communism overtaking the world (thanks to people like the unilateral defeatist Jimmy Carter)... The US kept NATO afloat, by paying for everything. By rebuilding (West) Germany (still lost half of it). Rearming Western European armies. What the Communists could not do through the Comintern in its early years, they succeeded with by making big plays after WW II. By the Roosevelt Progressives making concessions that would eventually surrender all of those Wilson post-WW I conceived/ reconstituted ethnic minority states- like Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc. to the Communist juggernaut (still had a 15- 20 million man army post- WW II). And the ability to do that was because the US was dominant in industry and technology. Because... Capitalism. A much better idea. And eventually that was lost too- to the new Marxism begun in the 1960s here, with the eventual takeover of the institutions by the critical theory post-structuralists still shooting for the utopia on earth dream. Now its neocons (Leftists) and Euro-optimists running things, having spent their revenues on welfare statism because big daddy Uncle Sam gave them umbrella protection until the fall of the wall. And with that they kept getting voted in because Karen loves safety and grand dreams of utopia on earth and all that takes is a really huge bureaucracy. Like a world-dominant one that hates national borders (except in Ukraine and Palestine)... NATO has been so successful that many former comblock nations --nations who understand fully what living under the communist boot feels like-- are joining the minute they're allowed. So many of them that Vlad is chafing at the restrictions it's been placing on his ambitions. So he's been slowly gobbling up land, feeling ahead with his toes for the boot to come down and tell him, "that's far enough." NATO was successful because the America of Ronald Reagan carried their weight until the Soviet Union fell- because Communism is stupid. The former combloc nations ran to the Europtimist form of collectivism because anything is better than hardcore Fascism ( like China and Russia). Karenism still beats the hell out of being Ivanism or Xi-ism. (but its still a collectivist beatdown that kills you slow instead of fast- it wants to watch you suffer for a long time). It is passive-aggressive collectivism that wants you to worship the transgenders, live in fifteen minute cities, eat bugs, drive EVs (in actuality take public transportation because only the worthy will be able to afford and operate EVs) and unfettered immigration, also to get the clot shot. I'm not going to keep going on about it, though. Isolationists don't live in the same world the rest of us do, and tend to ignore anything that doesn't comport with their worldview. All forms of Statism are delusional. And hateful. Putin is terrible. But the Euro-optimist Statist position (Corporato-Statism is bad when you have Microsoft, Facebook, Amazon, etc. working with China to make population surveillance and control an international control thingy) still thinks there are too many people on the planet. And that you will bend to their will to build a new utopia on earth (different than that Soviet one). And pay your taxes. All of them. To build the Utopia. And pay their extravagant salaries. The point you seem to miss is that WW I, WW II and the Cold War was all about Progressivism wanting to build utopias. Hegelianism in one form or another. Huge bureaucratic states. And it is still going on. Ukraine is very much a part of that effort. |
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Posted: 5/27/2024 6:51:46 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheOTHERmaninblack: Without speaking to the rest, it's my recollection that the plan Russia agreed to gave them more land inside The Ukraine. Land for peace is never a good deal. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheOTHERmaninblack: Without speaking to the rest, it's my recollection that the plan Russia agreed to gave them more land inside The Ukraine. Land for peace is never a good deal. Give who more land? Originally Posted By colklink: Dude, you were post #27 in this thread. Literally no one before you posted anything remotely like that. One guy posted an idea for Russia and NATO to divide Ukraine in half, that was maybe the closest thing. One guy said he hopes Poland has lots of military supplies stockpiled. Most posts have been wishing Poland well. It's a common theme among these posts especially by the OP. |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 5/27/2024 6:55:38 PM EDT
[#26]
There seems to be a hankering to build a lot more memorials.
All this is pretty ironic, today. |
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Posted: 5/27/2024 7:10:31 PM EDT
[#27]
Russia said they will do nukes this has never been said by them before, unprecedented! were all gonna die!!!!@#$@$
 *shits pants* |
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Posted: 5/27/2024 7:14:45 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tuco22: Russia said they will do nukes this has never been said by them before, unprecedented! were all gonna die!!!!@#$@$ https://imgur.com/WtWTLDL.gif *shits pants* But the rest of the world is growing ever more weary of Russia's shit, and the time is approaching when somebody is going to call their bluff. At which point, they either back down and color inside the lines, or the world gets shiny. |
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Posted: 5/27/2024 8:33:02 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheOTHERmaninblack: It's not an infallible system. It's just better than trying to roll alone. WWI kicked off because various countries really, really wanted to put Germany "in its place" The assassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand was just a handy excuse. WWII happened because the same actors were STILL trying to put Germany "in its place." And yet, America is its own nation because one of those same actors, in a previous incarnation, came to our aid. By and large, NATO has kept the world relatively peaceful for a good many years. It saw the end of the USSR that many people worldwide insisted was invincible, and should be kowtowed to. NATO has been so successful that many former comblock nations --nations who understand fully what living under the communist boot feels like-- are joining the minute they're allowed. So many of them that Vlad is chafing at the restrictions it's been placing on his ambitions. So he's been slowly gobbling up land, feeling ahead with his toes for the boot to come down and tell him, "that's far enough." I'm not going to keep going on about it, though. Isolationists don't live in the same world the rest of us do, and tend to ignore anything that doesn't comport with their worldview. In a world where the US spent trillions of dollars, thousands of lives over 20 years to replace the Taliban in Afghanistan with the Taliban, I would like the US to think twice, or a dozen times, before becoming involved in foreign wars. What you people that rail against ' isolationism ' fail to understand is that often, things are much worse after our interventions. And by worse, I mean worse for our interests. The NATO led war on Libya for example. |
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Posted: 5/27/2024 10:12:09 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By colklink: In a world where the US spent trillions of dollars, thousands of lives over 20 years to replace the Taliban in Afghanistan with the Taliban, I would like the US to think twice, or a dozen times, before becoming involved in foreign wars. What you people that rail against ' isolationism ' fail to understand is that often, things are much worse after our interventions. And by worse, I mean worse for our interests. The NATO led war on Libya for example. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By colklink: Originally Posted By TheOTHERmaninblack: It's not an infallible system. It's just better than trying to roll alone. WWI kicked off because various countries really, really wanted to put Germany "in its place" The assassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand was just a handy excuse. WWII happened because the same actors were STILL trying to put Germany "in its place." And yet, America is its own nation because one of those same actors, in a previous incarnation, came to our aid. By and large, NATO has kept the world relatively peaceful for a good many years. It saw the end of the USSR that many people worldwide insisted was invincible, and should be kowtowed to. NATO has been so successful that many former comblock nations --nations who understand fully what living under the communist boot feels like-- are joining the minute they're allowed. So many of them that Vlad is chafing at the restrictions it's been placing on his ambitions. So he's been slowly gobbling up land, feeling ahead with his toes for the boot to come down and tell him, "that's far enough." I'm not going to keep going on about it, though. Isolationists don't live in the same world the rest of us do, and tend to ignore anything that doesn't comport with their worldview. In a world where the US spent trillions of dollars, thousands of lives over 20 years to replace the Taliban in Afghanistan with the Taliban, I would like the US to think twice, or a dozen times, before becoming involved in foreign wars. What you people that rail against ' isolationism ' fail to understand is that often, things are much worse after our interventions. And by worse, I mean worse for our interests. The NATO led war on Libya for example. The issues we've been having the past 60 years is that the assholes running things aren't in the business of making things better for us. The LAST thing they want to do is look out for our interests. Our problem is that the US is being run by effective communists. Under those assholes, nothing works. Isolationism isn't even a pipe dream under them, no matter how loudly you guys squall. |
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Posted: 5/27/2024 10:25:08 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ODA_564: Article 5 only kicks in if a NATO country is attacked (and even then it isn't automatic). If a NATO country is the aggressor there's no Article 5 obligation on alliance members. That's my thought. Dangerous play, because this allows Russia to now invade Poland. Then again, this also shows just how much Poland trusts NATO - a potent lesson. |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 5/27/2024 10:32:10 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ODA_564: Article 5 only kicks in if a NATO country is attacked (and even then it isn't automatic). If a NATO country is the aggressor there's no Article 5 obligation on alliance members. And this is where NATO will fall to pieces. If these Baltic countries send in troops that opens up their home country to invasion without the backup that they are expecting. Once the rest of Europe refuses to honor NATO oblicgations because of this "technicality" the rest of the alliance will collapse. |
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Posted: 5/27/2024 10:38:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#33]
Russia is the aggressor...against Ukraine, a non-NATO country. Words means things.
Ukraine is not a NATO country. We have zero obligation militarily to them. One could absolutely argue that our non-binding accord from the 90's has been met, especially since it specifies nothing at all. At the end of the day it has no actual requirements for us. France, Poland, the Baltics, they aren't going to do shit. They aren't ready to do anything. This is all just more political grandstanding focused solely on the US, as it all started when we turned the tap off. "Uncle Sam has to get back in the game or else X". It's been nonstop for months. They aren't capable of doing anything on their own and I'm 95% sure they have zero desire or plan to. |
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MS, USA
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Posted: 5/27/2024 10:45:04 PM EDT
[#34]
WW3 is coming.
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USA
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Posted: 5/27/2024 10:58:23 PM EDT
[#35]
They should do whatever is right for them. But if they do there isn't an Article 5 that would apply to go crying to.
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WI, USA
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Posted: 5/27/2024 11:35:41 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By colklink: In a world where the US spent trillions of dollars, thousands of lives over 20 years to replace the Taliban in Afghanistan with the Taliban, I would like the US to think twice, or a dozen times, before becoming involved in foreign wars. What you people that rail against ' isolationism ' fail to understand is that often, things are much worse after our interventions. And by worse, I mean worse for our interests. The NATO led war on Libya for example. Nobody is calling for US military to get involved in Ukraine, except maybe some ludicrously optimistic folks in Ukraine. US troops in Ukraine is not sending military aid is not total avoidance. These are three distinct options, and in many discussions the distinctions are ignored for cheap rhetorical points. People supporting the last option treat the first two as identical. Only the third option is true isolationism, and that is a minority position. |
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Posted: 5/27/2024 11:39:57 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ExFed1811: WW3 is coming. . Any idea when? We've crossed countless red lines of Russia. Not a single thing has happened. |
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Posted: 5/27/2024 11:41:40 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Pallas: My solution to this is to draw a line down the center of UKR, let the Russians have the east side and NATO the west side. NATO now has a buffer zone, Russia now has a buffer zone. Problem solved, where is my Nobel Peace Prize? Does Ukraine get a say in giving away their country ? |
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Posted: 5/28/2024 10:47:40 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheOTHERmaninblack: What you isolationists fail to recognize is that there's a place between Fuck everybody, and where we're at. I'm no more a fan of unlimited empire building than the next guy, but there's a degree of international cooperation somewhere between the two extremes The issues we've been having the past 60 years is that the assholes running things aren't in the business of making things better for us. The LAST thing they want to do is look out for our interests. Our problem is that the US is being run by effective communists. Under those assholes, nothing works. Isolationism isn't even a pipe dream under them, no matter how loudly you guys squall. First of all, I am not an isolationist. Second, what you fail to realize that whenever we insert ourselves into a foreign war, it's the assholes running things that are in charge of our policy when we do. I think a case can be made that if the choices are 1- do something with Biden calling the shots and 2- do nothing, sometimes do nothing is the better choice for our interests. |
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Posted: 5/28/2024 10:51:10 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Nobody is calling for US military to get involved in Ukraine, except maybe some ludicrously optimistic folks in Ukraine. US troops in Ukraine is not sending military aid is not total avoidance. These are three distinct options, and in many discussions the distinctions are ignored for cheap rhetorical points. People supporting the last option treat the first two as identical. Only the third option is true isolationism, and that is a minority position. I would argue that sending military aid to Ukraine us involving ourselves. Which, I have no problem with. Had Obama provided training and lethal aid to Ukraine, this war probably could have been avoided. But because we have half assed our reponse to Russian aggression since the Obama administration, here we are. |
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Posted: 5/28/2024 10:54:39 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wyomingnick: Does Ukraine get a say in giving away their country ? Evidently not. |
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Posted: 5/28/2024 3:19:34 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By colklink: I would argue that sending military aid to Ukraine us involving ourselves. Which, I have no problem with. Had Obama provided training and lethal aid to Ukraine, this war probably could have been avoided. But because we have half assed our reponse to Russian aggression since the Obama administration, here we are. I agree. Had Trump been re-elected (as he should have) in 2020 I don't think this would have happened but had it happened there would have been a much more drastically different course not only among the US response but here in GD. Every role would be reversed, more or less. We would all be Ukebros
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MI, USA
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Posted: 5/28/2024 3:27:10 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: That would be remotely true if the US stayed out and allowed Russia to invade a NATO partner. That's a pretty big detail to overlook. Absurd as well. Not when you have Presidential candidates throwing out signals that they aren't really on board with defending our treaty allies. "He didn't mean that!" Doesn't fly with dictators who take every statement pretty seriously and look for weaknesses in resolve of potential combatants. As we've made the mistake many times thinking Putin's statements shouldn't be taken seriously. He doesn't take campaign speeches as a joke either. |
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Posted: 5/28/2024 3:52:32 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ascendent: It will be a good day when Russia is eliminated from planet Earth. Ah yes, the UkeBros dreaming of genocide! Yup, not a cult! |
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Posted: 5/28/2024 4:00:27 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Not when you have Presidential candidates throwing out signals that they aren't really on board with defending our treaty allies. "He didn't mean that!" Doesn't fly with dictators who take every statement pretty seriously and look for weaknesses in resolve of potential combatants. As we've made the mistake many times thinking Putin's statements shouldn't be taken seriously. He doesn't take campaign speeches as a joke either. Cite me an official "signal" stating we would not support a NATO ally via article V if they were invaded. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 5/28/2024 4:17:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ArmyInfantryVet]
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Cite me an official "signal" stating we would not support a NATO ally via article V if they were invaded. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Not when you have Presidential candidates throwing out signals that they aren't really on board with defending our treaty allies. "He didn't mean that!" Doesn't fly with dictators who take every statement pretty seriously and look for weaknesses in resolve of potential combatants. As we've made the mistake many times thinking Putin's statements shouldn't be taken seriously. He doesn't take campaign speeches as a joke either. Cite me an official "signal" stating we would not support a NATO ally via article V if they were invaded.  All the matters is what Putin believes Trump will do as President. Even the bill passed making it so the President cannot unilaterally pull out of NATO, but that "official document" doesn't stop the President from declining a legit Article 5. He can pull forces and funding out. Official means fuck all. The President can change policy instantly. Like Trumen did for the North Korean invasion into South Korea. Imperial Japan figured it would be a quick war with the US, because we wouldn't even send aid to Britain. Here we are in the same sort of environment where a country wanting to be with the EU and the West. The US has to go through long and agonizing debates for half a year; just to send lethal aid that won't involve a single dead American soldier or marine. You got a Presidential candidate making statements he won't even defend some NATO allies, and even cheer on the Russian invasion of said NATO countries. While at the same time lethal aid packages are hotly debated and dragged out as long as beaucracry can allow. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 5/28/2024 4:22:28 PM EDT
[#47]
Easy to act tough when you believe there are no consequences. A few tactical nukes at their staging areas and they will curl up into the fetal position and cry... same as France.
I don't know why now that some naive people now think that a nuke superpower will never use the weapons they invested generations of treasure into will never be used. It's like bitch talking to a guy twice your size thinking that he will never react. We used them...someone else will too. It's the reason they exist. |
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Posted: 5/28/2024 4:26:15 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ODA_564: Article 5 only kicks in if a NATO country is attacked (and even then it isn't automatic). If a NATO country is the aggressor there's no Article 5 obligation on alliance members. If Ukraine invited NATO troops into western Ukraine, how would that make them “the aggressor”? |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 5/28/2024 4:29:29 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cone256: No, not systems, ammo for said systems. Shiny toys are worthless without massive stockpiles of ammo and spare parts so they can keep shooting and stay in the fight. See that's where we come in at, the defense contractors that is. They're going to make a killing of off this. Same old story. |
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Posted: 5/28/2024 4:30:33 PM EDT
[#50]
Cool, Eastern Europe being the buffer region it's always been.
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