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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Caught On Tape: Cops Use Taser Gun On Man Trying To Get Home (Page 2 of 5)

Posted: 8/17/2004 9:43:26 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
Quoted:
seriousness.

That's good to know. I, too, would like to know what happened to the use of force contium. When I taught it, you didn't pepper a guy or strike him with a side handle baton due to verbal uncompliance.

In all seriousness, did you have OC or baton or K9 bark or bite or tazer, etc etc on the force continum you taught? How far back are we going?

There are many reasonable situations where you may have to resort to using force due to non-compliance or resitance.

What force continuim does it state to strike with a baton for someone giving you "lip"?

Do you actually understand the use of force as it applies to the continuim?

Posted: 8/17/2004 9:43:41 AM EDT

[#2]

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Very well said. Now, how does the public deal with this "new breed"?

I fear it is really too late. The old gaurd are retiring in droves at this time. Most of us have at least 20 years in. The only way is to comply and do your best to obey the law. Beyond that complain if you feel you were mistreated but you are wasting your time if you are complaining that they enforced a law you didn't like or is chicken shit. You can't discipline a cop for enforcing the law. Move your city councils to repeal useless laws and vote down a police levy or two and tell the Chief why you voted against it. Money talks. Lastly, and this is key, don't bitch moan, cry and complain that some cop didn't enforce your pet peeve ordinance at a particular time and place. You will get what you wanted and more. Remember, every other busybody is pushing their pet violation down the cops throat to the point where they are left with no choice in their mind but to enforce every law so rigidly that there is no room for them to get in trouble with the boss. The last 30 years of whining and lawsuits have had their effect. Barney fife would have been sued, fired, and broke within the first 6 hours on the job in our current America, and Andy would have been thrown in jail for dereliction of duty with what he let folks get away with. The new breed is here for a while and all they know is the book.

I know too well the old breed, I'm one of them. I don't criticize the officer for enforcing a law. I will, however, criticize the zealousness of that enforcement, when several steps of the continuim are omitted and when individual rights and common sense is tossed out the window.

Posted: 8/17/2004 9:45:36 AM EDT

[#3]

The "new-breed" of cops is the reason we have to now teach our children that the police are not their friends.

Posted: 8/17/2004 9:48:52 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
seriousness.

That's good to know. I, too, would like to know what happened to the use of force contium. When I taught it, you didn't pepper a guy or strike him with a side handle baton due to verbal uncompliance.

In all seriousness, did you have OC or baton or K9 bark or bite or tazer, etc etc on the force continum you taught? How far back are we going?

There are many reasonable situations where you may have to resort to using force due to non-compliance or resitance.

What force continuim does it state to strike with a baton for someone giving you "lip"?

Do you actually understand the use of force as it applies to the continuim?

As a matter of fact, yes. And what was it I stated in my post that you overlooked and jumped striaght to something else? Maybe that was an example of your mindset, I don't know. What I stated was VERBAL NON-COMPLIANCE.

Apparently you're not familiar with the use of force continuim or just choose to ignore it depending on your specific needs. There are several levels of non-compliance and resistance.

Posted: 8/17/2004 9:57:24 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

......Apparently you're not familiar with the use of force continuim or just choose to ignore it depending on your specific needs. There are several levels of non-compliance and resistance.

Really? No-kidding. There are several levels and several tools to deal with each level. That is my point.

How is deploying the proper tool "ignoring it depending on specific needs"?

Posted: 8/17/2004 9:58:31 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
The "new-breed" of cops is the reason we have to now teach our children that the police are not their friends.

I totally disagree. It's the reason we need to close the gap instead of widening it. It's the reason we must remain vigilant and not allow our rights to be taken away. It's the reason we must work to improve the situation by removing moronic laws and taking more responsibility for ourselves, by helping one another, not tolerating crime and criminals, educating our children with morals and discipline and we would have less need for the high number of LEO's.

Posted: 8/17/2004 10:00:49 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
The "new-breed" of cops is the reason we have to now teach our children that the police are not their friends.

That's just sad.

At least you are spending time with your kids teaching them something I guess.

Family values good strong moral character learned at home from good role models would go a long way to help solve problems.

Posted: 8/17/2004 10:00:53 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Quoted:

......Apparently you're not familiar with the use of force continuim or just choose to ignore it depending on your specific needs. There are several levels of non-compliance and resistance.

Really? No-kidding. There are several levels and several tools to deal with each level. That is my point.

How is deploying the proper tool "ignoring it depending on specific needs"?

I was speaking specifically of you when you choose not to regard my "verbal non-compliance" statement and jumped right to resistance. Illustrated my point, BTW.

Posted: 8/17/2004 10:03:07 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
People posting all of these taser threads don't seem to get that a taser deployment is rated at just above a verbal command, and either at or below the level assigned to OC.

True, love it or hate it the TASER is the least amount of force a cop can use. taking your hand or arm and touching you gently on the shoulder and saying, "Sir, please walk over here" is MORE force than the TASER under most agencies OPM.

Posted: 8/17/2004 10:04:29 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

......Apparently you're not familiar with the use of force continuim or just choose to ignore it depending on your specific needs. There are several levels of non-compliance and resistance.

Really? No-kidding. There are several levels and several tools to deal with each level. That is my point.

How is deploying the proper tool "ignoring it depending on specific needs"?

I was speaking specifically of you when you choose not to regard my "verbal non-compliance" statement and jumped right to resistance. Illustrated my point, BTW.

Below is what I actaully said

In all seriousness, did you have OC or baton or K9 bark or bite or tazer, etc etc on the force continum you taught? How far back are we going?

There are many reasonable situations where you may have to resort to using force due to non-compliance or resitance.

What force continuim does it state to strike with a baton for someone giving you "lip"?

Do you actually understand the use of force as it applies to the continuim?

...

by "lip" I was referring to your "verbal non-compliance"

I did address the verbal non-complaince. There are instances were non-compliance, weather verbal, passive, or active is going to require you to move up the cotinuim.

Posted: 8/17/2004 10:11:35 AM EDT

[#11]

"Sir, please walk over here" is MORE force than the TASER under most agencies OPM.

not where i live...thankfully.

Posted: 8/17/2004 10:12:58 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
People posting all of these taser threads don't seem to get that a taser deployment is rated at just above a verbal command, and either at or below the level assigned to OC. There is a very low risk to all parties by using a taser, and certainly better for everyone than having to wrestle , and running the risk of serious injuries that that entails.

Ok, so if I use a taser on a police officer it would be considered just above a verbal command?

Give me a fucking break.

Posted: 8/17/2004 10:13:48 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

......Apparently you're not familiar with the use of force continuim or just choose to ignore it depending on your specific needs. There are several levels of non-compliance and resistance.

Really? No-kidding. There are several levels and several tools to deal with each level. That is my point.

How is deploying the proper tool "ignoring it depending on specific needs"?

I was speaking specifically of you when you choose not to regard my "verbal non-compliance" statement and jumped right to resistance. Illustrated my point, BTW.

Below is what I actaully said

In all seriousness, did you have OC or baton or K9 bark or bite or tazer, etc etc on the force continum you taught? How far back are we going?

There are many reasonable situations where you may have to resort to using force due to non-compliance or resitance.

What force continuim does it state to strike with a baton for someone giving you "lip"?

Do you actually understand the use of force as it applies to the continuim?

...

by "lip" I was referring to your "verbal non-compliance"

I did address the verbal non-complaince. There are instances were non-compliance, weather verbal, passive, or active is going to require you to move up the cotinuim.

My point is, "lip" doesn't give you the right to employ an impact weapon of any nature. Maybe there is a misunstanding of what I was stating or what you are.

Secondly, let us not forget that many times an officer may / does give verbal commands, in certain situations, where the officer is in the wrong. Then, when his commands are not met he jumps up the ladder.

Posted: 8/17/2004 10:17:00 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Quoted:
People posting all of these taser threads don't seem to get that a taser deployment is rated at just above a verbal command, and either at or below the level assigned to OC.

True, low it or hate it the TASER is the least amount of force a cop can use. taking your hand or arm and touching you gently on the shoulder and saying, "Sir, please walk over here" is MORE force than the TASER under most agencies OPM.

That is ridiculous! If that is the case we need to stop that type of thinking, now!

Posted: 8/17/2004 10:17:23 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
The new breed is here for a while and all they know is the book.

We're pretty good at risk mangement and paperfucking people too. Since so much of our training is based on how not to get the taxpayers sued. Used to be a suspect was a dick, you got a little rough with him. Now you just keep adding new charges to the booking paperwork and extra paragraphs to the report.

Example:
Old way: pull over a junkie, you arrest him for heroin possession. He gets lippy, you kick his ass.

New way: pull over a junkie, you arrest him for heroin possesion. He gets lippy, you impound his car, & add DUI charges. then you file paperwork with DMV to have his license administratively suspended, seperate from the criminal proceedings. Then you roll back to his house and see if he left his dope where the kids could get at it. If so, take the kids to the children's home and add child endangerment charges. You call his landlord and tell him he hasd a junkie for a tenet, and if he doesnt evict the junky, his other tenents can sue him. So when the Junkie makes bail he doesnt have a drivers license, a car or a place to live. plus his kids are gone. Thats "paperfucking" someone. you might beat the rap, but you wont beat the ride...

Posted: 8/17/2004 10:23:15 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Quoted:
The new breed is here for a while and all they know is the book.

We're pretty good at risk mangement and paperfucking people too. Since so much of are training is based on how not to get the taxpayers sued. Used to be a suspect was a dick, you got a little rough with him. Now you just keep adding new charges to the booking paperwork and extra paragraphs to the report.

Example:
Old way: pull over a junkie, you arrest him for heroin possession. He gets lippy, you kick his ass.

new way: pull over a junkie, you arrest him for heroin possesion. He gets lippy, you impound his car, & add DUI charges. then you file paperwork with DMV to have his license administratively suspended, seperate from the criminal proceedings. Then you roll back to his house and see if he left his dope where the kids could get at it. If so, take the kids to the children's home and add child endangerment charges. You call his landlord and tell him he hasd a junkie for a tenet, and if he doesnt evict the junky, his other tenents can sue him. So when the Junkie makes bail he doesnt have a drivers license, a car or a place to live. plus his kids are gone. Thats "paperfucking" someone. you might beat the rap, but you wont beat the ride...

Your way is simply not as good as the old way. See, the new way left the guy on the street, his children homeless, or worse in the custody of social engineers who will dutifully turn out a generation of new criminals and prostitutes. You also left him with no way to get to work or to seek help that he might need to get straight. In short, for being thin skinned and not just ignorning a little lip, you fucked up an entire family for the rest of their lives. Can't imagine why new breeders don't get the respect we did, can't imagine why at all?

Posted: 8/17/2004 10:25:47 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Quoted:
The new breed is here for a while and all they know is the book.

We're pretty good at risk mangement and paperfucking people too. Since so much of are training is based on how not to get the taxpayers sued. Used to be a suspect was a dick, you got a little rough with him. Now you just keep adding new charges to the booking paperwork and extra paragraphs to the report.

Example:
Old way: pull over a junkie, you arrest him for heroin possession. He gets lippy, you kick his ass.

new way: pull over a junkie, you arrest him for heroin possesion. He gets lippy, you impound his car, & add DUI charges. then you file paperwork with DMV to have his license administratively suspended, seperate from the criminal proceedings. Then you roll back to his house and see if he left his dope where the kids could get at it. If so, take the kids to the children's home and add child endangerment charges. You call his landlord and tell him he hasd a junkie for a tenet, and if he doesnt evict the junky, his other tenents can sue him. So when the Junkie makes bail he doesnt have a drivers license, a car or a place to live. plus his kids are gone. Thats "paperfucking" someone. you might beat the rap, but you wont beat the ride...

That is the exact type of escalation that needs to stop! That is exactly what causes dissention and distrust between the public and LEO. LEO's need / should be held to the highest standards. Anyone employing those types of tactics need to be removed and at the least charged with violation of civil rights. Arrest and change a person on the crime they may have committed. Adding charges because he pissed you off is criminal, IMHO, because you have been entrusted with protecting and serving the public and you have abused your authority and violated that trust.

Posted: 8/17/2004 10:27:05 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Quoted:
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People posting all of these taser threads don't seem to get that a taser deployment is rated at just above a verbal command, and either at or below the level assigned to OC.

True, low it or hate it the TASER is the least amount of force a cop can use. taking your hand or arm and touching you gently on the shoulder and saying, "Sir, please walk over here" is MORE force than the TASER under most agencies OPM.

That is ridiculous! If that is the case we need to stop that type of thinking, now!

It is stupid, but here is why it's done that way. say the officer gently takes the suspect by the hand, and placing a hand on the back of his shoulder says "please come over here with me sir." the suspect violently pulls away and the fight is one. The suspect, and the officer WILL both get hurt.

Now the suspects lawyer sues, "screaming why were you touching my client!" $$$
Medical bills for the suspect $$$
The cop is out on medical/Workers comp $$$
they have to pay another cop overtime to do his job $$$

thats alot of $$$$$$$$$$$$

With the taser you have no injuries to the suspect, no injuries to officers, no need to replce officers at time and a half, and your workers comp insurnace rates stay low.

I'm serious when I say trail lawyers and risk management have brought us to this point.

Posted: 8/17/2004 10:30:27 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The new breed is here for a while and all they know is the book.

We're pretty good at risk mangement and paperfucking people too. Since so much of are training is based on how not to get the taxpayers sued. Used to be a suspect was a dick, you got a little rough with him. Now you just keep adding new charges to the booking paperwork and extra paragraphs to the report.

Example:
Old way: pull over a junkie, you arrest him for heroin possession. He gets lippy, you kick his ass.

new way: pull over a junkie, you arrest him for heroin possesion. He gets lippy, you impound his car, & add DUI charges. then you file paperwork with DMV to have his license administratively suspended, seperate from the criminal proceedings. Then you roll back to his house and see if he left his dope where the kids could get at it. If so, take the kids to the children's home and add child endangerment charges. You call his landlord and tell him he hasd a junkie for a tenet, and if he doesnt evict the junky, his other tenents can sue him. So when the Junkie makes bail he doesnt have a drivers license, a car or a place to live. plus his kids are gone. Thats "paperfucking" someone. you might beat the rap, but you wont beat the ride...

Your way is simply not as good as the old way...

I agree. But where i work its the only way you can to the job and actually make it to retirement.

Posted: 8/17/2004 10:31:25 AM EDT

[#20]

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People posting all of these taser threads don't seem to get that a taser deployment is rated at just above a verbal command, and either at or below the level assigned to OC. There is a very low risk to all parties by using a taser, and certainly better for everyone than having to wrestle , and running the risk of serious injuries that that entails.

A person can suffer a fatal injury by falling to the ground.

A person can suffer a fatal injury fighting with a cop too. Not to mention the fatal injuries that come from getting shot with a REAL gun. There are five people walking around my jurisdiction today that are alive simply because Tazer was a force option. (Not that their being alive is a good thing really)

Step back a minute and take another look at what you have written.

You are a sworn officer of the law, am I correct?

You go about your daily work armed with the tools of your trade; to protect and SERVE. The firearms you carry have the ability to end a life when employed as designed. YOU have the ability to take another's life if you so desire...for whatever reason.

That is a damn scary statement. From us, the un-uniformed rabble, not a scary statement...from YOU, frightening to say the least. All life, even that of the low-life scum of the earth is precious.

Pretty flippant statement from one advocating the use of a Taser. I'm glad that your department of public safety has issued them to you.

Scary...

Stay safe and keep putting the bad guys away...I think you are way wrong...but I respect you and your job anyway. <<shaking head...>>

It's certainly nice how blinders and bias forces you to jump to a conclusion that is not there. Do you think we just go around tazering the good solid citizenry at random?

Let's review those 5 cases and maybe you'll get what I mean. I don't hold out much hope though.

#1. Man who had just killed his son with a hammer, and who fought police.

#2. Man who, when tazered, was stomping his wife's head into the driveway, apparently stabbing her was just not enough.

#3 Attempted suicide by cop. Meth addict with a knife, who had children as hostages.

#4. Attempted suicide by cop. EDP on cocaine, just beat the hell out of his mother because she didn't have any money.

#5 Meth addict, attacked a lady and split her head open with piece of metal rebar when she would not give up the purse. Standoff against police with aforementioned rebar.

You are correct, life is precious. however, all life is not equal. I, believe innocent life to be FAR more precious than those that would kill or injure fellow human beings. All of the people above are walking around today because a Tazer was used instead of the JUSTIFIED use of a pistol, and WILL injure or possibly kill others in the future.

If you believe ALL life is equal, I suggest you take that up with your fellow ARFCOM members, esp those that believe in the death penalty, and deadly force.

Posted: 8/17/2004 10:33:46 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The new breed is here for a while and all they know is the book.

We're pretty good at risk mangement and paperfucking people too. Since so much of are training is based on how not to get the taxpayers sued. Used to be a suspect was a dick, you got a little rough with him. Now you just keep adding new charges to the booking paperwork and extra paragraphs to the report.

Example:
Old way: pull over a junkie, you arrest him for heroin possession. He gets lippy, you kick his ass.

new way: pull over a junkie, you arrest him for heroin possesion. He gets lippy, you impound his car, & add DUI charges. then you file paperwork with DMV to have his license administratively suspended, seperate from the criminal proceedings. Then you roll back to his house and see if he left his dope where the kids could get at it. If so, take the kids to the children's home and add child endangerment charges. You call his landlord and tell him he hasd a junkie for a tenet, and if he doesnt evict the junky, his other tenents can sue him. So when the Junkie makes bail he doesnt have a drivers license, a car or a place to live. plus his kids are gone. Thats "paperfucking" someone. you might beat the rap, but you wont beat the ride...

That is the exact type of escalation that needs to stop! That is exactly what causes dissention and distrust between the public and LEO. LEO's need / should be held to the highest standards. Anyone employing those types of tactics need to be removed and at the least charged with violation of civil rights. Arrest and change a person on the crime they may have committed. Adding charges because he pissed you off is criminal, IMHO, because you have been entrusted with protecting and serving the public and you have abused your authority and violated that trust.

Nobody said anything about making up false charges,. Instead you are looking close and making sure all applicable violations of law are handled. Is it mean spirited? Hell yes. thats why its reserved for the shit heads that would have gotten a beating back in the day. (which IS criminal)

Posted: 8/17/2004 10:34:51 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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People posting all of these taser threads don't seem to get that a taser deployment is rated at just above a verbal command, and either at or below the level assigned to OC. There is a very low risk to all parties by using a taser, and certainly better for everyone than having to wrestle , and running the risk of serious injuries that that entails.

A person can suffer a fatal injury by falling to the ground.

A person can suffer a fatal injury fighting with a cop too. Not to mention the fatal injuries that come from getting shot with a REAL gun. There are five people walking around my jurisdiction today that are alive simply because Tazer was a force option. (Not that their being alive is a good thing really)

Step back a minute and take another look at what you have written.

You are a sworn officer of the law, am I correct?

You go about your daily work armed with the tools of your trade; to protect and SERVE. The firearms you carry have the ability to end a life when employed as designed. YOU have the ability to take another's life if you so desire...for whatever reason.

That is a damn scary statement. From us, the un-uniformed rabble, not a scary statement...from YOU, frightening to say the least. All life, even that of the low-life scum of the earth is precious.

Pretty flippant statement from one advocating the use of a Taser. I'm glad that your department of public safety has issued them to you.

Scary...

Stay safe and keep putting the bad guys away...I think you are way wrong...but I respect you and your job anyway. <<shaking head...>>

It's certainly nice how blinders and bias forces you to jump to a conclusion that is not there. Do you think we just go around tazering the good solid citizenry at random?

Let's review those 5 cases and maybe you'll get what I mean. I don't hold out much hope though.

#1. Man who had just killed his son with a hammer, and who fought police.

#2. Man who, when tazered, was stomping his wife's head into the driveway, apparently stabbing her was just not enough.

#3 Attempted suicide by cop. Meth addict with a knife, who had children as hostages.

#4. Attempted suicide by cop. EDP on cocaine, just beat the hell out of his mother because she didn't have any money.

#5 Meth addict, attacked a lady and split her head open with piece of metal rebar when she would not give up the purse. Standoff against police with aforementioned rebar.

You are correct, life is precious. however, all life is not equal. I, believe innocent life to be FAR more precious than those that would kill or injure fellow human beings. All of the people above are walking around today because a Tazer was used instead of the JUSTIFIED use of a pistol, and WILL injure or possibly kill others in the future.

If you believe ALL life is equal, I suggest you take that up with your fellow ARFCOM members, esp those that believe in the death penalty, and deadly force.

And, in none of those instances would I have a problem with such use of force.

Posted: 8/17/2004 10:39:52 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
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seriousness.

That's good to know. I, too, would like to know what happened to the use of force contium. When I taught it, you didn't pepper a guy or strike him with a side handle baton due to verbal uncompliance.

the UOFC is just fine thank you, and more restrictive than in your day. I teach it as well. When you are told that Tazer is just above verbal, what that REALLY means is that it takes the place of Empty Hand Control techniques. (holds, pressure points, etc in some agencies, it even replaces the baton) Things that are FAR more likely to cause injury (and even death) than a Tazer.

Don't get caught up in the general ARFCOM cluelessness of all things LE.

Posted: 8/17/2004 10:41:12 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Nobody said anything about making up false charges,. Instead you are looking close and making sure all applicable violations of law are handled. Is it mean spirited? Hell yes. thats why its reserved for the shit heads that would have gotten a beating back in the day. (which IS criminal)

BS. Pure and simple. What you are doing is trying to find anything and everything you can by any stretch of the law to charge a person with because he pissed you off. You've seen it, and I've seen it.

Posted: 8/17/2004 10:47:11 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
seriousness.

That's good to know. I, too, would like to know what happened to the use of force contium. When I taught it, you didn't pepper a guy or strike him with a side handle baton due to verbal uncompliance.

the UOFC is just fine thank you, and more restrictive than in your day. I teach it as well. When you are told that Tazer is just above verbal, what that REALLY means is that it takes the place of Empty Hand Control techniques. (holds, pressure points, etc in some agencies, it even replaces the baton) Things that are FAR more likely to cause injury (and even death) than a Tazer.

Don't get caught up in the general ARFCOM cluelessness of all things LE.

The UOFC is NOT just fine if shooting someone with a taser is below empty hand control techniques. Many injuries can, and will be sustained, by a violent drop to the ground, regardless of what caused it.

It's not more restrictive than "my day", it's just more complicated. And, complication leads to mistakes, mistakes lead to needless injury, leads to lawsuits, etc. See wher I'm going with this?

Posted: 8/17/2004 10:47:53 AM EDT

[#26]

I don't care either way, but let me just get this straight you guys -

- Police tazer somebody, it is not even newsworth and only slightly above a verbal command
- I tazer somebody, and that person is justified in using deadly force against me

Is that correct?

Posted: 8/17/2004 10:48:52 AM EDT

[#27]

Must take my leave for a short duration. Will be back inside of 20 mins. to continue the discussion.

Semper Fi!

Posted: 8/17/2004 10:54:23 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

And, in none of those instances would I have a problem with such use of force.

That's fine and all, but do you and LWilde understand my point? These five are alive today simply because of a Tazer, and because lawyers brought about the entire situation in the first place.

Back in the days of the "Old Guard" every one of them would have been shot on the spot and not a tear shed.

As for Tazer causing injuries, pace maker etc, don't know too many addicts/EDP's/ homicidal loons with a pace maker, and Tazers do not affect heart muscle. Officers themselves are repeatedly Tazered as part of the training.

Posted: 8/17/2004 10:58:23 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
I don't care either way, but let me just get this straight you guys -

- Police tazer somebody, it is not even newsworth and only slightly above a verbal command
- I tazer somebody, and that person is justified in using deadly force against me

Is that correct?

Depends. Are you tazering someone in self defense, are you Tazering them for fun, or to rob them? Remember, as long as there is current, the recipient is COMPLETELY unable to move.

It's no different than pepper spray, or any other kind of force. Use must be justifiable.

Posted: 8/17/2004 11:06:20 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't care either way, but let me just get this straight you guys -

- Police tazer somebody, it is not even newsworth and only slightly above a verbal command
- I tazer somebody, and that person is justified in using deadly force against me

Is that correct?

Depends. Are you tazering someone in self defense, are you Tazering them for fun, or to rob them? Remember, as long as there is current, the recipient is COMPLETELY unable to move.

It's no different than pepper spray, or any other kind of force. Use must be justifiable.

Therein lies my entire point. USE MUST BE JUSTIFIED.

Yes, in those instances it was. In others, such as the Alzhiemer patient that suffered a frctured arm and dislocated shoulder from its use, I question.

Posted: 8/17/2004 11:09:05 AM EDT

[#31]

Or, the guy in FL with his kids going back to his personal residence.

Posted: 8/17/2004 11:10:07 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
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seriousness.

That's good to know. I, too, would like to know what happened to the use of force contium. When I taught it, you didn't pepper a guy or strike him with a side handle baton due to verbal uncompliance.

the UOFC is just fine thank you, and more restrictive than in your day. I teach it as well. When you are told that Tazer is just above verbal, what that REALLY means is that it takes the place of Empty Hand Control techniques. (holds, pressure points, etc in some agencies, it even replaces the baton) Things that are FAR more likely to cause injury (and even death) than a Tazer.

Don't get caught up in the general ARFCOM cluelessness of all things LE.

The UOFC is NOT just fine if shooting someone with a taser is below empty hand control techniques. Many injuries can, and will be sustained, by a violent drop to the ground, regardless of what caused it.

It's not more restrictive than "my day", it's just more complicated. And, complication leads to mistakes, mistakes lead to needless injury, leads to lawsuits, etc. See wher I'm going with this?

Tazer is not BELOW empty hand techniques, it is the SAME level. (BTW: the old "Ladder" model for UOF was thrown out long ago)
Once you get into use of physical force, SOMEONE (sometimes several someones) stands the chance of getting hurt. Rather severely once you start moving to baton strikes and such. Death is a possibility. (overweight guy on crack) we're not even addressing the weapon control issue. (A hell of a lot of the "Old Guard" died when the guy the were wrestling with got ahold of the officer's pistol) You have to balance someone slumping to the ground from a Tazer hit against that. Tazer is the LEAST amount of directed control technique you can use. Would you rather use multiple baton strikes?

Posted: 8/17/2004 11:14:31 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Officers themselves are repeatedly Tazered as part of the training.

You guys hear about the firefighter paramedic that "killed" three of his colleages with a defibulator? He was teaching a class on it. He wanted to demonstrate how the current travels from one pad to the olteher. so he had the class hold hands, had one guy hold one pad, guy at the other end of the line held the other, and he gave them one zap. Three of them dropped on the spot in full cardiac arrest. everyone survived, but the "instructor" got fired & sued.

Posted: 8/17/2004 11:20:55 AM EDT

[#34]

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I don't care either way, but let me just get this straight you guys -

- Police tazer somebody, it is not even newsworth and only slightly above a verbal command
- I tazer somebody, and that person is justified in using deadly force against me

Is that correct?

Depends. Are you tazering someone in self defense, are you Tazering them for fun, or to rob them? Remember, as long as there is current, the recipient is COMPLETELY unable to move.

It's no different than pepper spray, or any other kind of force. Use must be justifiable.

Therein lies my entire point. USE MUST BE JUSTIFIED.

Yes, in those instances it was. In others, such as the Alzhiemer patient that suffered a frctured arm and dislocated shoulder from its use, I question.

\

Fine, question them but don't question EVERY use and tell me the UOFC is out of whack. As for the guy dancing in traffic, I don't have the slightest problem with that one at all. I don't have enough info on the other guy. it may very well be the dude was attempting to reenter a dangerous situation (home with a gas leak, etc) with his kids along. Tazer was probably a lot more preferable than tackling him and wrestling him into cuffs.

Posted: 8/17/2004 11:20:56 AM EDT

[#35]

Isolated incidents of usefulness aside, less than lethal (LTL) tools will seriously erode the freedoms we now enjoy.

As a general affect on the population, the widespread use of LTL tools gives authorities an new option of population control that has not existed before.

This new option removes the consequences of actions. A target can be controlled, subdued, and immobilized in a way that will protect authorities from political damage. When the possibility of death is removed, so is some of the accountability that government is adhered to.

Normally people are treated with negotiation, or extreme violence. These two options force responsibility to both sides. Violence is used as a final option. With LTL, the "on-off" switch of extreme violence has be substituted for a potentiometer.

Peaceful resolution will become less of and option for authorities when LTL tools exist. Thus, "Less than lethal" will be used more often. With LTL, an incident can be neutralized just as affectively as extreme violence, although without any messy fallout (death, public outcry).

With LTL tools, government will have tighter control over the population, and the ability to avoid damaging public opinion. Where we see LTL tools in use, we can see our freedoms decline.

The disire to remove the accountablity of people's actions, will distroy the American way of life.

Posted: 8/17/2004 11:20:57 AM EDT

[#36]

several arfcommers (including tim green and jojo [iirc]) got taser'd at the shot show.

they were young and that was voluntary.

some youngster lights me up, there's no telling what the short circuit might do to my old, abused nervous system.

Posted: 8/17/2004 11:23:41 AM EDT

[#37]

Mob Justice- Two words.

Posted: 8/17/2004 11:25:26 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
seriousness.

That's good to know. I, too, would like to know what happened to the use of force contium. When I taught it, you didn't pepper a guy or strike him with a side handle baton due to verbal uncompliance.

the UOFC is just fine thank you, and more restrictive than in your day. I teach it as well. When you are told that Tazer is just above verbal, what that REALLY means is that it takes the place of Empty Hand Control techniques. (holds, pressure points, etc in some agencies, it even replaces the baton) Things that are FAR more likely to cause injury (and even death) than a Tazer.

Don't get caught up in the general ARFCOM cluelessness of all things LE.

The UOFC is NOT just fine if shooting someone with a taser is below empty hand control techniques. Many injuries can, and will be sustained, by a violent drop to the ground, regardless of what caused it.

It's not more restrictive than "my day", it's just more complicated. And, complication leads to mistakes, mistakes lead to needless injury, leads to lawsuits, etc. See wher I'm going with this?

Tazer is not BELOW empty hand techniques, it is the SAME level. (BTW: the old "Ladder" model for UOF was thrown out long ago)
Once you get into use of physical force, SOMEONE (sometimes several someones) stands the chance of getting hurt. Rather severely once you start moving to baton strikes and such. Death is a possibility. (overweight guy on crack) we're not even addressing the weapon control issue. (A hell of a lot of the "Old Guard died when the guy the were wrestling with got ahold of the officer's pistol) You have to balance someone slumping to the ground from a Tazer hit against that. Tazer is the LEAST amount of directed control technique you can use. Would you rather use multiple baton strikes?

Not at all. And, I only used the term "ladder" as descriptive. No where in this debacle have I ever said that the taser is not a useful tool. You've apparently missed, or I have not explained clearly enough, my position.

Active resistance is not the same as active aggression. Active aggression requires a different level of response and distance is your friend. My point, was that I believe with the innundation of new tools, many take a leap to employing them unduly. You (should) know as well as I do, that command presence and "physically" directing someone to a certain place can be accomplished, in many situations, without a brawl.

Posted: 8/17/2004 11:26:43 AM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
several arfcommers (including tim green and jojo [iirc]) got taser'd at the shot show.

they were young and that was voluntary.

some youngster lights me up, there's no telling what the short circuit might do to my old, abused nervous system.

My old abused nervous system hurt like hell and I could not move for the life of me. I've been zapped extensively, and have tried to figure out ways to "fight thru" it, (like I can with pepper spray and the old "Air" Tazers) but no luck so far.

Posted: 8/17/2004 11:27:34 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
In the old days cops respected the citizens and received that respect from most in return. We also respected each other and our families. You didn't write a cop, cops wife, cops kid for minor infractions you took them home or let them go with a buz in the related cops ear at an appropriate moment. You did likewise often enough with local residents or someone down on their luck. You resolved conflicts using arrest as an absolute last resort and violence only where it was needed. You were a professional who could in a moments notice switch from peacekeeper to full blown war mode and back again as needed. You never kicked someone's ass and took them to jail. One or the other, but never both. People in the community knew who you were. Criminals feared you, honest people trusted you, not the other way around. Taking someone's kids and calling childrens services was a last resort and we didn't arrest people for having arguments with their spouse. Then again, back in the day, politicians allowed cops to excersize common sense and discretion, and most of us had never been sued into poverty. Again, thank the liberals and sue em all trial lawyers. The American people got exactly what they asked for in this new breed of young cops.

well stated.

I have no problem with the "sue em all" crowd getting tazed (or even nuked :D ), just a darn shame that those of us from the old days, both citizen & police officer, have to suffer for the actions of the "young & the senseless"... on both sides.

Posted: 8/17/2004 11:27:47 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Officers themselves are repeatedly Tazered as part of the training.

You guys hear about the firefighter paramedic that "killed" three of his colleages with a defibulator? He was teaching a class on it. He wanted to demonstrate how the current travels from one pad to the olteher. so he had the class hold hands, had one guy hold one pad, guy at the other end of the line held the other, and he gave them one zap. Three of them dropped on the spot in full cardiac arrest. everyone survived, but the "instructor" got fired & sued.

I was a Paramedic for 14 years. I've seen this same type of stupidity.

Posted: 8/17/2004 11:29:01 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
Isolated incidents of usefulness aside, less than lethal (LTL) tools will seriously erode the freedoms we now enjoy.

As a general affect on the population, the widespread use of LTL tools gives authorities an new option of population control that has not existed before.

This new option removes the consequences of actions. A target can be controlled, subdued, and immobilized in a way that will protect authorities from political damage. When the possibility of death is removed, so is some of the accountability that government is adhered to.

Normally people are treated with negotiation, or extreme violence. These two options force responsibility to both sides. Violence is used as a final option. With LTL, the "on-off" switch of extreme violence has be substituted for a potentiometer.

Peaceful resolution will become less of and option for authorities when LTL tools exist. Thus, "Less than lethal" will be used more often. With LTL, an incident can be neutralized just as affectively as extreme violence, although without any messy fallout (death, public outcry).

With LTL tools, government will have tighter control over the population, and the ability to avoid damaging public opinion. Where we see LTL tools in use, we can see our freedoms decline.

The disire to remove the accountablity of people's actions, will distroy the American way of life.

This is the point I've been trying to make!

Posted: 8/17/2004 11:34:37 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
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People posting all of these taser threads don't seem to get that a taser deployment is rated at just above a verbal command, and either at or below the level assigned to OC.

True, low it or hate it the TASER is the least amount of force a cop can use. taking your hand or arm and touching you gently on the shoulder and saying, "Sir, please walk over here" is MORE force than the TASER under most agencies OPM.

That is ridiculous! If that is the case we need to stop that type of thinking, now!

It is stupid, but here is why it's done that way. say the officer gently takes the suspect by the hand, and placing a hand on the back of his shoulder says "please come over here with me sir." the suspect violently pulls away and the fight is one. The suspect, and the officer WILL both get hurt.

Now the suspects lawyer sues, "screaming why were you touching my client!" $$$
Medical bills for the suspect $$$
The cop is out on medical/Workers comp $$$
they have to pay another cop overtime to do his job $$$

thats alot of $$$$$$$$$$$$

With the taser you have no injuries to the suspect, no injuries to officers, no need to replce officers at time and a half, and your workers comp insurnace rates stay low.

I'm serious when I say trail lawyers and risk management have brought us to this point.

One thing is for sure, things were changing when I was packing a badge. I did not like it then and complied the best I could cause I was this " close to retirement. I have read many posts here from many current LEo's and another thing is for certain -- if I was still a LEO, I would be brought up on charges, sued, or jailed for using common sense and time honored methods. I feel truthfully , that I left law enforcement in the nick of time. I would not have made it or served with honor under what seems to be the current "rules " -- to those entrusted with the job and responsibility, all I can say is, good luck my brothers , stay safe, serve with honor.

Posted: 8/17/2004 11:35:02 AM EDT

[#44]

"Active Resistance" and "Active Aggression" are two phrases that really, are meaningless. Both involve the same use of force (by both sides) does it really matter that an officer tries to take into custody a guy that is "resisting" or aggressing" when he slashes the officer with a broken bottle??

Posted: 8/17/2004 11:44:00 AM EDT

[#45]

Considering what that individual is enduring, those fucking cops are major cock suckers. Kharma baby, Kharma. Hopefully, they will get a taste!

Posted: 8/17/2004 11:44:07 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
In the old days cops respected the citizens and received that respect from most in return. We also respected each other and our families. You didn't write a cop, cops wife, cops kid for minor infractions you took them home or let them go with a buz in the related cops ear at an appropriate moment. You did likewise often enough with local residents or someone down on their luck. You resolved conflicts using arrest as an absolute last resort and violence only where it was needed. You were a professional who could in a moments notice switch from peacekeeper to full blown war mode and back again as needed. You never kicked someone's ass and took them to jail. One or the other, but never both. People in the community knew who you were. Criminals feared you, honest people trusted you, not the other way around. Taking someone's kids and calling childrens services was a last resort and we didn't arrest people for having arguments with their spouse. Then again, back in the day, politicians allowed cops to excersize common sense and discretion, and most of us had never been sued into poverty. Again, thank the liberals and sue em all trial lawyers. The American people got exactly what they asked for in this new breed of young cops.

Man, you sound just like my uncle. (Retired Detroit LEO)

(Haven't read past page 1 yet)

Posted: 8/17/2004 11:45:23 AM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
"Active Resistance" and "Active Aggression" are two phrases that really, are meaningless. Both involve the same use of force (by both sides) does it really matter that an officer tries to take into custody a guy that is "resisting" or aggressing" when he slashes the officer with a broken bottle??

Meaningless??? NO, they don't require the same use of force. You just jumped from active resistance to active aggression with a weapon!!! Do you not understand the difference? Who the hell trained you? Or, more appropriately, who was is that didn't train you?

Posted: 8/17/2004 11:49:49 AM EDT

[#48]

Anybody else disturbed to hear that Tasers do kill some people? USA Today says up to 50 deaths so far, but nobody really knows how many.

Posted: 8/17/2004 11:52:40 AM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
Quoted:
"Active Resistance" and "Active Aggression" are two phrases that really, are meaningless. Both involve the same use of force (by both sides) does it really matter that an officer tries to take into custody a guy that is "resisting" or aggressing" when he slashes the officer with a broken bottle??

Meaningless??? NO, they don't require the same use of force. You just jumped from active resistance to active aggression with a weapon!!! Do you not understand the difference? Who the hell trained you? Or, more appropriately, who was is that didn't train you?

Don't start with the language and insults. You can be civil, or you can talk to yourself.

As for training, I've been an instructor myself since 1988. I'm certainly more conversant on this subject than you.

I think what you are looking for is now called "Passive resistance" and "Active Aggression"

Since by your own admission you've been out of this a while, maybe a little background refresher is in order?

Posted: 8/17/2004 11:56:22 AM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
Anybody else disturbed to hear that Tasers do kill some people? USA Today says up to 50 deaths so far, but nobody really knows how many.

None have been proven at this point. The main source for those "Death" numbers is surprise, the NAACP.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Caught On Tape: Cops Use Taser Gun On Man Trying To Get Home (Page 2 of 5)

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