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AR15.COM
7/21/2004 3:54:57 PM EDT
deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595078761,00.html



Justices uphold guns ruling

Fired workers who violated the ban had sued AOL
By Linda Thomson
Deseret Morning News

     The Utah Supreme Court on Tuesday asserted that employees do not have the right to bring guns onto company property if there is a policy prohibiting weapons.
     The high court's ruling underscored the strength of Utah's long-standing, at-will employment law — which means workers can be fired or quit at any time.
     The decision was prompted by a wrongful termination lawsuit filed by three America Online employees, Luke Hansen, Paul Carlson and Jason Melling, who were sacked in 2000 after they transferred guns among their cars in the company's leased parking lot at its Ogden call center.
     AOL had a policy, which the employees knew about, that prohibited firearms in the company building and parking lot.
     The lawsuit spawned numerous debates about such issues as private property rights vs. the constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms, and what rights employers and workers have under Utah law.
      "There remains an evolving discussion about the role of firearms in our society. While certain areas of that debate are more developed than others, the mature at-will employment law in the state of Utah rejects the idea that, in the face of a freely entered-into agreement to the contrary, an employee has the right to carry a firearm on his employer's premises," the court wrote.
     The three AOL employees were off work and planned to go target shooting at a local firing range. A company security camera recorded them moving guns from two of the cars to the third man's car, which also had a gun inside. Four days later, the men were fired.
     Although these were at-will employees, AOL said the men were fired because they had violated its "Workplace Violence Prevention Policy."
     The men filed suit, arguing AOL's actions constituted wrongful termination because possessing guns was protected by public policy, namely the constitutional right to keep and bear arms.
     They also argued the at-will employment rule has an exception that permits individuals to sue for wrongful termination in certain instances, such as a worker who gets fired after refusing a request from a boss to do something illegal.
     A trial court decided in favor of AOL, and the men appealed the decision.
     The unanimous Supreme Court ruling, written by Justice Ronald Nehring, noted that the Utah Legislature heatedly debated such issues in 2004 in its discussion over a chapter in the "uniform firearms laws" that eliminated a policy favored by the University of Utah, which had banned weapons on campus.
     "This debate amply captures the tension between two familiar antagonists: the right to regulate one's own private property and the right to keep and bear arms," the Supreme Court opinion said.
     "We read the language of (the state law) to indicate that the Legislature has purposefully declined to give the right to keep and bear arms absolute pre-eminence over the right to regulate one's own private property," the ruling said.
     Mike O'Brien, who represented several businesses that sided with AOL and filed a friend-of-the-court brief, said his clients are pleased.
     "Obviously, we think it's the right result. Obviously, employers should be able to choose on this issue," O'Brien said. "We don't say ban guns or allow them — we just say employers should be allowed to choose, and this decision allows employers to make this choice."
     O'Brien said the issue could be revisited by the Legislature, and any changes might spark a flurry of new lawsuits.
     "There are very strong private property interests up at the Legislature, but also strong gun interests," O'Brien said. "There could be a very interesting clash of those interests."
     Rob Sykes, an attorney representing the three former AOL workers, said his clients are "saddened" by the ruling.
     "We respect the courts but have to disagree with them on that particular decision," Sykes said.




7/21/2004 4:05:45 PM EDT
[#1]
Well duh.

Its private property.  They have the right to say anything they want and make any rules they want.

I don't agree with it because the bad guys don't care what company policy is, but to demand that a company be forced to allow people on its property with somthing that the company dosn't like would be like the govt. telling you that you HAVE to let crackheads and meth maggots on your personal private property loaded with suitcases full of dope.

Chris
7/21/2004 4:06:38 PM EDT
[#2]

Quoted:
Well duh.

Its private property.  They have the right to say anything they want and make any rules they want.

I don't agree with it because the bad guys don't care what company policy is, but to demand that a company be forced to allow people on its property with somthing that the company dosn't like would be like the govt. telling you that you HAVE to let crackheads and meth maggots on your personal private property loaded with suitcases full of dope.

Chris



Wow, does that mean, as a business owner, I can decide not to hire, lets say Black people?
7/21/2004 4:08:14 PM EDT
[#3]

Quoted:
Well duh.

Its private property.  They have the right to say anything they want and make any rules they want.

I don't agree with it because the bad guys don't care what company policy is, but to demand that a company be forced to allow people on its property with somthing that the company dosn't like would be like the govt. telling you that you HAVE to let crackheads and meth maggots on your personal private property loaded with suitcases full of dope.

Chris



But at the same time it's OK for the government to tell owners of private businesses that they *can't* allow smoking on their property?
7/21/2004 4:11:26 PM EDT
[#4]

Quoted:
Wow, does that mean, as a business owner, I can decide not to hire, lets say Black people?



No, you have to hire them, but may require them to check their blackness at the door.  Right???
7/21/2004 4:12:02 PM EDT
[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Well duh.

Its private property.  They have the right to say anything they want and make any rules they want.

I don't agree with it because the bad guys don't care what company policy is, but to demand that a company be forced to allow people on its property with somthing that the company dosn't like would be like the govt. telling you that you HAVE to let crackheads and meth maggots on your personal private property loaded with suitcases full of dope.

Chris



Wow, does that mean, as a business owner, I can decide not to hire, lets say Black people?




i was thinking the same thing after reading that post.
7/21/2004 4:12:11 PM EDT
[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Wow, does that mean, as a business owner, I can decide not to hire, lets say Black people?



No, you have to hire them, but may require them to check their blackness at the door.  Right???



It would seem.
7/21/2004 4:18:13 PM EDT
[#7]

Quoted:
Wow, does that mean, as a business owner, I can decide not to hire, lets say Black people?



Personally, I don't think anybody should be forced to do or not do anything by the govt. so long as they don't interfere with other peoples rights.  Nobody has the RIGHT to be hired by sombody else, regardless of what they look like.

If some dumbass wants to start a business and not hire blacks, thats his dumbassed problem.  

The market will decide the fate of his business quite well without the govt. interferring.



Originally Posted livefreeordieNH:
But at the same time it's OK for the government to tell owners of private businesses that they *can't* allow smoking on their property?



I never agreed with those laws either.

That should be up to the businesses to decide.

Chris
7/21/2004 4:19:09 PM EDT
[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Well duh.

Its private property.  They have the right to say anything they want and make any rules they want.

I don't agree with it because the bad guys don't care what company policy is, but to demand that a company be forced to allow people on its property with somthing that the company dosn't like would be like the govt. telling you that you HAVE to let crackheads and meth maggots on your personal private property loaded with suitcases full of dope.

Chris



Wow, does that mean, as a business owner, I can decide not to hire, lets say Black people?



Well, if you had a business that an employee being white was a ‘Bona Fide Occupational Qualification’, you could in theory reject black people employment.  It is the same law that allows Hooters to reject women who don’t have big boobs.

KhanFire
7/21/2004 4:19:17 PM EDT
[#9]
I keep mine in the car regardless of the company policy.  
7/21/2004 4:48:37 PM EDT
[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Well duh.

Its private property.  They have the right to say anything they want and make any rules they want.

I don't agree with it because the bad guys don't care what company policy is, but to demand that a company be forced to allow people on its property with somthing that the company dosn't like would be like the govt. telling you that you HAVE to let crackheads and meth maggots on your personal private property loaded with suitcases full of dope.

Chris



Wow, does that mean, as a business owner, I can decide not to hire, lets say Black people?

That's what happens when you have ten thousand competing ideas of what should be - and they all get adopted.
7/21/2004 4:50:13 PM EDT
[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
Well duh.

Its private property.  They have the right to say anything they want and make any rules they want.

I don't agree with it because the bad guys don't care what company policy is, but to demand that a company be forced to allow people on its property with somthing that the company dosn't like would be like the govt. telling you that you HAVE to let crackheads and meth maggots on your personal private property loaded with suitcases full of dope.

Chris



Wow, does that mean, as a business owner, I can decide not to hire, lets say Black people?

That's what happens when you have ten thousand competing ideas of what should be - and they all get adopted.



Exactly.
7/21/2004 5:07:11 PM EDT
[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Well duh.

Its private property.  They have the right to say anything they want and make any rules they want.

I don't agree with it because the bad guys don't care what company policy is, but to demand that a company be forced to allow people on its property with somthing that the company dosn't like would be like the govt. telling you that you HAVE to let crackheads and meth maggots on your personal private property loaded with suitcases full of dope.

Chris



Wow, does that mean, as a business owner, I can decide not to hire, lets say Black people?

But for a federal law, yes! Unfortunately, there does not appear to be a law in Utah forbiding discrimination against CCW....
7/21/2004 5:10:43 PM EDT
[#13]
The company that I work for has a no guns on company property policy and that includes the parking lot. Funny though, when some cars were broken into the company said they weren't responsible.
7/21/2004 5:17:07 PM EDT
[#14]
Companies have an absolute right to control what happens on company property, subject only to positive law. There are anti-discrimination laws which make it illegal to exclude certain classes from employment, Utah has no law which requires guns to be permitted on company property.

You may not like the ruling on a personal level, but the Court ruled correctly. As the company has an absolute right to exclude employees from bringing guns onto their property, the employees have an absolute right to leave the company at any time and seek employment elswhere. It's call the free market, and it's a good thing.
7/21/2004 5:18:17 PM EDT
[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Wow, does that mean, as a business owner, I can decide not to hire, lets say Black people?



No, you have to hire them, but may require them to check their blackness at the door.  Right???



ouch, burn....
7/21/2004 8:09:29 PM EDT
[#16]

Quoted:
I keep mine in the car regardless of the company policy.  




The company that I work for has a no guns on company property policy and that includes the parking lot. Funny though, when some cars were broken into the company said they weren't responsible.





Actually, these guys got fired because they were going to go shooting at the range after work.  The security camera caught them transfering their cased guns from one car to another in the parking lot.  Four days later they were fired.
7/21/2004 8:14:52 PM EDT
[#17]

Quoted:
Wow, does that mean, as a business owner, I can decide not to hire, lets say Black people?

Well you SHOULD be able to do that as that is your right to freely associate or not associate with anyone you want for any reason you want.

7/21/2004 8:18:46 PM EDT
[#18]

Quoted:
Wow, does that mean, as a business owner, I can decide not to hire, lets say Black people?




Sure you can.  Why wouldn't you be able to?
7/21/2004 9:43:28 PM EDT
[#19]
Our company policy of no firearms on company property did not stop the crooks that robbed a store down the street from coming onto company property.  In fact, the company did not even attempt to fire them.  P.S. The crooks did not work there.