Posted: 7/12/2004 8:25:27 AM EDT
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I've been doing quite a bit of reading lately about the relative effectiveness of various handgun calibers. (Thinking of upgrading my 9mm CCW.) I have no first-hand real-life experience, but I have three reliable acquaintances who have "been there and done that", and their experiences are interesting if only because they don't fit the conventional wisdom. (Yes, I know that three incidents are not statistically viable.) 1: Pilot from my squadron in Vietnam, emptied his .38 (G.I. issue lead round-nose bullets) at a bunch of NVA who were trying to capture him. He hit two, both went down, thinks he killed one of them. (Wished he hadn't, because then they caught him.) 2. Another pilot, also in Vietnam. One shot, very close, from his .38 dropped and killed a VC. Entered left side of chest, no exit. He expressed surprise that there was no bleeding. 3. Instructor/lecturer at a law enforcement training facility. Shot a large biker (drunk but no drugs) four times in the chest with .40 JHP's. The biker stopped advancing and looked around. The officer thought he had missed. Then the biker went to his knees and looked around again for a few seconds, then fell. Still took a few more moments to expire. Anyone else have any reliable first-hand experiences that might be interesting? |
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I always liked the black talon theory .... get pentration by using a heavy bullet for the caliber, but then you dont get a big wound cavity because of low velocity, so they put those blade thingies on it to get a big wound channel. With normal bullets, its either penetration or shock ... hard to get both unless you have a magnum caliber. Well, if I have my choice, I'll choose penetration. I always carry with a heavy bullets for the caliber. I use a 147 gr JHP in my 9mm, a 200 gr JHP in my 10mm and a 230 gr jhp in my .45ACP. I have lots of black talons left, wish I could use them for self defense, but would not want to be under scrutiny if I ever did have to use them .... Now I just use them as backup on hogs, of which they work amazingly well! |
I never said I was worried about what I do to the bad guy ... Im worried about what the courts may think of me using "evil outlawed black bullets" ..... I guess I shouldnt care if it accomplishes my goal of defending myself (rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6) ... But that is my thinking on it ... |
| That was kind of my thoughts too....I figured I would lose everything I ever had or hoped to have to the courts, but if I had to shoot, I would want him to fall down as soon as I could get him to do so. I would just like me and mine to be around to have to defend ourselves in court! |
go find some Ranger SXT rounds. all the Black Talon goodness, none of the sheeple scaring black finish. the round is identical it just has a grey moly coat iirc instead of the black one. |
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The wound profile from the best HP's in all major handgun calibers are, for all intents and purposes, virtually indistinguishable. I'm talking 9/.357 (both)/.38/.40/.45. Shoot what YOU are most comfortable with. Anybody who tells you differently is trying to sell you on their own bias. |
Those "blade thingies" rarely come into contact with flesh during the creation of the wound channel. And shock? WTF? Do you mean toxic shock from lead poisoning? Shock from loss of blood? I hope you aren't a believer in the hydrostatic shock BS. |
I am certainly open to correction on the hydrostatic shock "BS". I do believe it makes rifles more effective, but I am open to accepting that maybe handgun calibers cannot generate enough velocity for this to come into play? is that what you mean? educate me. I dont read all the test reports, I just know how different bullets perform when I hunt and I have shot many different animals with many different handgun bullets. I have grown to prefer heavy bullets, even in rifle calibers, they are always the most effective for me. Large animals seem to drop quicker with the heavier bullets. This would support the statement that hydrostatic shock is BS, but I also know when I shoot a Dillo with a 44 mag pushing a 180gr JHP, I blow Dillo guts all over my buddies! 
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The one thing that always gets left out of the equation is the mental/physical state of the target. Ive read an account of a 250lb man taking a .22 and dropping like a rock. Ive also read an account of a 100lb off-duty LAPD cop who had her heart shredded by a .357 mag but stayed up and in the fight long enough to pump half a mag out of a Beretta into her attacker. Ive seen a man with what the doctors termed "total avulsion of the lower mandible" (read that as his jaw was completely shot off) from a contact 12ga wound who was awake, alert and functional the entire time. Its simple. Unless you totally destroy a major component of the central nervous system or cut off the blood supply to the brain you have NO WAY of knowing what the targets reaction will be. Im a fan of the .45ACP for two reasons. It comes in a reliable proven platform that I shoot the best, and I like its recoil characteristics. If someone handed me a SIG with a couple mags of ball ammo, Id STILL use it to the best of my ability and probably have as much chance at success. |
+1 And, wasn't there some ammo that people freaked out about back 10, 11 years ago called Black Rhino? Oh yeah, dig this. Black Talon just got caught up in it because of the similar name. What a joke that Black Rhino crapola was. ETA: That website has some other interesting research as well. www.tpgfaq.org/gfhome.htm |
Hydrostatic shock is a theory that says that the shock wave generated from the bullet passing through the body disables/kills the person. Some people try to claim that a high speed bullet passing near any major artery will cause a shock wave that travels up the blood stream and explodes the heart and/or brain. It's just a bunch of bunk that hunters and some gun rags like to perpetuate because they don't understand wound ballistics. HS does not kill. Check into the Fackler articles posted at the top of the ammo forum. One of them is about HS. |
I understand what Hydrostatic shock IS, I just was not up on how effective it is or is not when it comes to killing power ... I will read the arcticles, thanks!
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Even if I had experience shooting someone, that'd be one caliber and a specific bad guy and would have ZERO meaning to anything you might experience. Shoot well, and as often as necessary. |
No they are not really, the cavity is three dimensional so the .15 in diameter difference between the expanded 9mm/147gr Ranger SXT and the .45/230gr can be significant in causing organ failure and blood loss. More important than that is that a bigger bullet means a longer and deeper hollow point cavity, which means its more likely to expand as designed EVERY time after passing through clothing and barrier material. And neither shed pieces of its mushroom/have the petals fold up against the shank OR underexpand or fail to expand. Designing .355 and .357inch hollowpoints that work has been a very trying job for the industry over the last 15 years. The .40's and .45's are much easier to work with simply because they are larger and they give the designers more material to work with. HOWEVER you still should carry what you are the best shot with, hits are always better than misses. And the only 100% sure way to get a "one shot stop" is a CNS hit. |
No, really, they are. You can argue pretty much all you want, but I've seen the data and I've done the tests myself. There is minimal difference between the best of each caliber. So minimal that you would be much better served with a weapon you can shoot accurately and fast than one you think will do more damage. Big and heavy doesn't always mean it will penetrate deeper. ESPECIALLY when the HP opens up and slows the bullet down even more (acts like a parachute). |
The military and to a lesser extent the police have business shooting through cover. Private citizens like you and I would have a very difficult time justifying that situation, even if we encountered it. Defensive handguns for us are simply "pitbull and knife repellent", with entirely different performance requirements. Odds are any violent encounter we have will be face-to-face, at very close range, probably at night. I skew my equipment and training for that sort of thing. I'd hate to have to face a prosecutor to explain why I shot somebody at long range, or through a windshield. |
True, but "hangar flying" - visualizing and analyzing the experiences of others - is still good training. You or some of your reliable sources must have had some experiences that we'd find interesting. |
Does shooting large game animals with handgun bullets count?
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Because he was trying to run you down with his car, and you know you couldn't out run or outfight a 4000 lb. missle. You were merely trying to save yourself by disabling the guidance systems main control processor. Good thing you carried ammo that would penetrate 8mm of laminated glass, and practiced enough to make the shot, because now you are alive. |
Possible, of course, but not probable. Are you aware of even one incident of such a thing happening to a private citizen other than in the movies? Your training resources might be better allocated on things other than hitting the driver of a moving car. An elephant might escape from a zoo and charge you, but the odds are against it, so you might want to equip and train for something more likely. Seems that almost all defensive handgun encounters for private citizens are one or two vicious dogs or punks, up close and personal, most often at night. I take a course or two every year, and practice about weekly, but I don't have unlimited time and resources, so I don't worry too much about stopping vehicles, or teeming hordes, or charging elephants. (And I've done the latter, just not with a handgun :)) |